@ZOS Stamina Sorc Suggestions

Erock25

I have spent the bulk of my ESO time playing my Khajit Sorc in a stamina spec. I have reached rank 18 in Cyrodiil, completed the two lower Craglorn trials many times (mostly in a pick up group), and have completed every quest and every dungeon and every skyshard on my way through Cadwell's Gold. I'm not the best at anything but I think I have a pretty well rounded experience and put a lot of thought into my builds and tried to min-max as best as I could. I think stamina Sorc has some things going for it, but unfortunately they took a pretty significant nerf (relative to other classes stam specs) overall in 1.6.

DKs, NBs, and Temps ALL received some nice stamina morphs in 1.6. This includes direct dmg abilities, dots, CC's, and other useful abilities. Sorc got a channeled magicka -> stam/hp ability and a toggle (so it takes up 2 of your 10 skill bars) that gives a pitiful amount of armor and a slight DPS increase (extra stamina and 10%heavy attack dmg). I know Sorc is traditionally the magicka user, but there is no reason to pigeonhole us. On top of this, the greatest synergy between Sorc and stamina spec was that we could stack our weapon dmg higher than the other classes because of Surge. With the new buff system, Surge weapon dmg increase is redundant with Rally from the 2h line. It is true that stamina builds are stronger overall in 1.6, but out of the four classes out there, Sorc abilities contribute the least to a stamina spec compared to what the other classes use.

I suggest two very minor changes to give the stamina user a reason to be a Sorc...

1. Add Major Endurance buff to Critical Surge morph. Right now all Critical Surge grants over Power Surge is 10% health returns from a crit. Sorc needs better stamina management and this is a perfect place for it. It also gives a stamina Sorc a reason to use Crit Surge over Rally. Right now, Rally is superior to Crit Surge in almost every way. Critical Surge lasts for 20 seconds, and I think Major Endurance should only last for the first 12 of those 20 seconds. Right now my Sorc on PTS has 760 stam regen, but I have more weapon dmg and crit rating set bonuses than stam regen ones, so let's just assume I can easily get to 1000 stam regen. Major Endurance for 12 seconds would result in 1800 additional stamina over that time frame. That sounds reasonable and far from overpowering to me, but makes Crit Surge use over Rally worth it.

2. Change Crystal Blast into a stamina morph (1 sec cast that also has a 35% chance to instant proc on stamina ability usage) that is a melee range Crystal Frag but also provides the Minor Brutality buff to the Sorc and their group. Sorc needs more group buffs and Minor Brutality is an underused buff right now. It should hit for around 2/3 as hard as a Crystal Frag (in a magicka spec) to compensate for the additional buff. This could also be turned into a 5 second duration dot if burst dmg is a concern and considering how often it should proc, 5 seconds sounds about right for the group Minor Brutality buff too.

I think these two changes are very reasonable and address some of the short comings of a Stamina Sorc while also returning the benefits a Sorc had in a stamina spec in 1.5. I know ZOS tried to help our stamina regen with the Dark Deal morph, but using a channel spell in melee range (without the ability to rely on a few Streaks to create range) is not going to cut it. The stamina version of Crystal Frag also rights two wrongs. The first being that Sorc lost their weapon dmg advantage with the new buff system and even the very small Minor Brutality buff would go a long way to helping this. The second is that Sorc were given ZERO stamina morphs that did any damage at all.

Please consider these changes ZOS as I think all classes should be able to spec into either magicka or stamina.

Edit: spelling.

Hridh

Also having a Stamina sorceror as my main, these seem like very nicely thought, while staying reasonnable suggestions, and the kind of direction I would like my class to be taken.
If frags is our main direct damage (according last ESO live), offer the magika/stamina alternative!

kkampaseb17_ESO

Major Endurance on Critical Surge was something I never considered. Good suggestion.

Voltos

Major Endurance to Crit Surge would be wonderful. Well said.

Dracane

I think, they should make Magicka Sorcerer better first. We are even worse.
But you brought up some nice thoughts. I don't know why, but I'm pretty sure, they are going to consider the Crystal Blast suggestion.

I am only scared, they are going to improve stamina Sorcs and think, it's fine then and totally ignore, that Magicka Sorcs are far more important (because most people want to play a mage Sorcerer and come one.... a Sorcerer is a spell caster, not a warrior at all)

Snit

Good suggestions. I would like to add another:

- Twilight Matriarch: Scales with and increases max stamina

Magicka casters all use Restoring Twilight, so it would be an easy spot to give stamina sorcs a useful morph.

Dracane

Snit wrote: »

Good suggestions. I would like to add another:

- Twilight Matriarch: Scales with and increases max stamina

Magicka casters all use Restoring Twilight, so it would be an easy spot to give stamina sorcs a useful morph.

Wow, 10% stamina regen what a "game changer" for stamina Sorc

madangrypally

I would also like one of the morphs to Daedra Mines to be Stamina based please.

Snit

Dracane wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Good suggestions. I would like to add another:

- Twilight Matriarch: Scales with and increases max stamina

Magicka casters all use Restoring Twilight, so it would be an easy spot to give stamina sorcs a useful morph.

Wow, 10% stamina regen what a "game changer" for stamina Sorc

It's max stamina, which is different from stamina regeneration.

Erock25

Considering what stamina morphs they gave us from the start, I don't think we can get too greedy.

Erock25

@ZOS ... please don't leave stamina Sorcs out in the cold in this 1.6 update. I've been putting in a ton of hours into the PTS and I'm convinced that there is no reason to be a Sorc as a stamina user. Just look at Critical Surge.... it costs my stamina Sorc 4150 magicka (just about half my magicka pool without food) and gives me 17 seconds of Major Brutality with a neutered heal on crit (tooltip lacks this information but I believe it is a 0.25 second cooldown). Rally on the other hand, costs me 1250 stamina and gives me Major Brutality for 33 seconds and 611 health regen + a burst heal when it expires or I end it.

I don't think ZOS went into 1.6 thinking they wanted to really change up how the classes function and that is why I think Crit Surge must be buffed for stamina users. First off, there is no reason to use Crit Surge anymore, unless you are a stamina user. I like the idea of keeping it as a magicka costing ability, but the cost needs to be reduced in addition to what I listed in the original post. Some stamina regen (Major Endurance) would be awesome, and in essence allow a Sorc to spend magicka to regen stamina.

Also the other thing stamina Sorc is missing from 1.5, is that we can no longer stack our weapon dmg higher than the other classes. Giving stam Sorcs the means to buff themselves with Minor Brutality (in the form of a stamina version of Crystal Frag) will returns the reason for someone to want to be a stamina Sorc.

I know there is a lot of Sorc complaining on the forums now, but if you know the class at all, you know a stamina build does not synergize with Sorc AT ALL in 1.6. We need something to remedy that and I'm afraid it will never happen if we wait until after 1.6, so I have to post about it.

manny254

Dracane wrote: »

I think, they should make Magicka Sorcerer better first. We are even worse.
But you brought up some nice thoughts. I don't know why, but I'm pretty sure, they are going to consider the Crystal Blast suggestion.

I am only scared, they are going to improve stamina Sorcs and think, it's fine then and totally ignore, that Magicka Sorcs are far more important (because most people want to play a mage Sorcerer and come one.... a Sorcerer is a spell caster, not a warrior at all)

First off magicka based sorc are fine. Second if you think sorcerer is "not a warrior at all" then you have no idea what a sorcerer is in Elder Scrolls.

ArconSeptim

People, each class can be very good used, just use your creativity and knowledge of game.Sorc with two hander and resto staff at second weapon tab is good combination even with dual wield try everything you can.Also each class has its own spells so combine them with weapon skills.

Dracane

manny254 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I think, they should make Magicka Sorcerer better first. We are even worse.
But you brought up some nice thoughts. I don't know why, but I'm pretty sure, they are going to consider the Crystal Blast suggestion.

I am only scared, they are going to improve stamina Sorcs and think, it's fine then and totally ignore, that Magicka Sorcs are far more important (because most people want to play a mage Sorcerer and come one.... a Sorcerer is a spell caster, not a warrior at all)

First off magicka based sorc are fine. Second if you think sorcerer is "not a warrior at all" then you have no idea what a sorcerer is in Elder Scrolls.

Oh I have an idea what it is. I know this battlemage crap.
But the Sorcerer in ESO is not that kind of mage to me and I see no need for it to be one.

And calling Magicka Sorc 'Fine' is pretty heretic. In my opinion, stamina Sorcs are fairly good.

kkampaseb17_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

But the Sorcerer in ESO is not that kind of mage to me and I see no need for it to be one.

Totally subjective. Move on.

I would also like to remind you this is a stamina sorc discussion. There are plenty of whinefests going about for magicka sorcs. Use one of them.

Dracane

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

But the Sorcerer in ESO is not that kind of mage to me and I see no need for it to be one.

Totally subjective. Move on.

I would also like to remind you this is a stamina sorc discussion. There are plenty of whinefests going about for magicka sorcs. Use one of them.

Oh true.... Yea I don't want to disturb my fellow Sorcs go ahead.

Erock25

ArconSeptim wrote: »

People, each class can be very good used, just use your creativity and knowledge of game.Sorc with two hander and resto staff at second weapon tab is good combination even with dual wield try everything you can.Also each class has its own spells so combine them with weapon skills.

I have tried everything and am continuing to try everything. There are very little amount of passives or active abilities in the Sorc skills that synergize well with a stamina build. Using resto as a stamina Sorc took a huge nerf in 1.6 because weapon power no longer increases resto heals. The only skills a Sorc has that synergize with a stamina build is Lightning Form, Critical Surge, Bound Armaments, and to a certain extent Streak. The problem is Immovable is just as good or better (depending on what you're doing and how much stam regen you have) than Lightning Form, Rally is just as good or better than Crit Surge, Bound Armaments is pretty weak compared to the two slots it takes up, and Streak is tough for a stamina Sorc to use that often.

Instead of just saying 'use your creativity' and 'try everything you can', you should contribute to the conversation by offering up your own ideas as to why stamina Sorc is currently balanced if you feel that way.

Erock25

I'm bumping my thread because this is literally all stamina Sorc needs and if the devs took my advice, at least half of the available sorc builds would be fixed. Please read @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ and pass on to the required developers.

Jahosefat

Erock25 wrote: »

ArconSeptim wrote: »

People, each class can be very good used, just use your creativity and knowledge of game.Sorc with two hander and resto staff at second weapon tab is good combination even with dual wield try everything you can.Also each class has its own spells so combine them with weapon skills.

I have tried everything and am continuing to try everything. There are very little amount of passives or active abilities in the Sorc skills that synergize well with a stamina build. Using resto as a stamina Sorc took a huge nerf in 1.6 because weapon power no longer increases resto heals. The only skills a Sorc has that synergize with a stamina build is Lightning Form, Critical Surge, Bound Armaments, and to a certain extent Streak. The problem is Immovable is just as good or better (depending on what you're doing and how much stam regen you have) than Lightning Form, Rally is just as good or better than Crit Surge, Bound Armaments is pretty weak compared to the two slots it takes up, and Streak is tough for a stamina Sorc to use that often.

Instead of just saying 'use your creativity' and 'try everything you can', you should contribute to the conversation by offering up your own ideas as to why stamina Sorc is currently balanced if you feel that way.

Exactly my take on this. Rally + Vigor is way more sustainable than taking up a spot with crit surge for a stam sorc. NB got the stambush (~20-25k crits easy) and surprise attack stam morph. They also no longer have any negative from casting marked target.... at a time when spell resist/armor is much more crucial to survivability. Stam sorcs need a stam-based damage ability that is heavy hitting, instant, and carries a soft cc to even hope of competing with stam NB/DK/TempTank.

sabresandiego_ESO

Some of the dark magic passives don't synergize with stamina whatsoever either. Like prophecy giving 3% spell crit when using a dark magic ability. This should give 3% weapon crit too.

Stamina sorcs are viable in pve, thats about it. Put on bound armor, and just load up on weapon skills, maybe dark deal if your stam gets low. Itll work in PVE but sorcs really have no synergy with stam builds at all. Forget doing PVP as a stam build and being even half as effective as another class doing a stamina build.

A big part of the issue is that sorc survivability is based on 2 primary things, damage shields and bolt escape. Both scale off magicka.

Snit

I have some questions about stamina sorcs for @sabresandiego_ESO, @Erock25 or anyone else with expertise on them. I'm sufficiently concerned about the future of caster sorcs that I've been leveling an Imperial. I saw the following strengths on which to build:

- Critical Surge and Critical Charge have a nice synergy. This may be the only way to really use Critical Surge to good effect
- Thundering Presence + 5MA/2HA should combine for pretty solid mitigation (though I am worried about those little lightning tics eating the Crit Surge cooldown)
- Bolt Escape and Crit Charge provide a nice combination
- Sorcs are awful at healing, but Rally and Crit Surge should, between them, provide decent sustain

I don't see many synergies between sorc skills and melee, but the ones I do see appear quite useful. While I certainly wish there were more options for build diversity in our class skills, isn't there at least one build that will be good for PvP, in particular?

sabresandiego_ESO

I dumped my sorc for DK after playing sorc for a year, being emperor, and tons of epic pvp memories. Not because sorc sucks, because it doesn't, sorc is still a good class. But the class no longer plays how I like to play in PVP. The stamina morphs that sorc recieved are for abilities I have no interest in using. And after test driving all the classes, I found the 1.6 stamina DK to be significantly more enjoyable for my own personal playstyle. Once again, I don't think sorcs are a bad class, they just don't fit my personal playstyle anymore, and DK's do.

madangrypally

This class is getting a lot of attention on the forums as being the worst class. I disagree and fear any kneejerk reactions from ZoS. I do think there is room for some adjustments and tweaks.


Negate: This ability has been changed to the point it is pretty useless. Rather then removing it and giving another Ultimate I feel it should be modified yet again to make it more useful. No suggestions on what change though.

Shattering Prison(Encase Morph): Change to Area effect around the sorcerer instead of in front of sorcerer (small radius). Have it scale and cost Stamina.

Defensive Rune(Rune Prison Morph): Make the enemy take damage when breaking out of the imprisoned. The explosion should deal enough damage to be felt.

Daedric Mines: Add 50% of damage to deal small range AoE damage. Let one of the Morphs scale and cost Stamina. Make the mines stop a charging player.



Daedric Curse: Make pets deal extra damage to the unmoprhed ability.
Daedric Prey. Remove the extra pet damage. New: Adds weapon damage when attacking target for caster only. Cost/scales with stamina.

Bound Armor: Add Minor Ward to Bound Armor. Allow Max Magicka to scale to 10% at Rank 4
Bound Armaments: Same changes as above with with Stamina and current bonuses.
Bound Aegis: Changed to something else.

Critical Surge (surge morph): This needs to be adjusted as currently it only adds 10% to the heal, Or remove it and replace it with something else for Stamina builds.

sabresandiego_ESO

Snit wrote: »

I have some questions about stamina sorcs for @sabresandiego_ESO, @Erock25 or anyone else with expertise on them. I'm sufficiently concerned about the future of caster sorcs that I've been leveling an Imperial. I saw the following strengths on which to build:

- Critical Surge and Critical Charge have a nice synergy. This may be the only way to really use Critical Surge to good effect
- Thundering Presence + 5MA/2HA should combine for pretty solid mitigation (though I am worried about those little lightning tics eating the Crit Surge cooldown)
- Bolt Escape and Crit Charge provide a nice combination
- Sorcs are awful at healing, but Rally and Crit Surge should, between them, provide decent sustain

I don't see many synergies between sorc skills and melee, but the ones I do see appear quite useful. While I certainly wish there were more options for build diversity in our class skills, isn't there at least one build that will be good for PvP, in particular?

To answer your question, sorc stamina damage output is fine because you can just use bound armor, flawless dawnbreaker, and weapon skills. But sorc survivability is dependant on shield stacking and bolt escape, both of which use and scale off magicka. This makes building a stamina sorc for pvp especially difficult. There are a few options to consider.

1. Heavy armor perma blocking stamina sorc. This way you can play without using damage shields.

2. Hybrid sorc split evenly between magicka and stam giving you decent shields and decent stamina damage, but not great in either. You can do this in any type of armor, and the build does work, but is slightly inferior to pure builds.

Gyudan

I agree with OP. Stamina sorcerers are even worse than magicka ones, making the class the least effective in stamina DPS and tanking roles.

Major issues:
- Thundering Presence used to add a huge amount of armor and spell resistance. Now it simply adds 2 major buffs that aren't quite as good, even if the duration is longer
- Wards don't scale based on health but based on max magicka. I think that Hardened Ward (the morph with 30% increased shield strength on self should be stamina-based and based on max health, to give tanks some form of protection despite the lack of self heals.
- Surge is weaker than Momentum and should be buffed as suggested in other comments in this thread.
- The whole daedric summoning tree in its current form is useless for stamina users. Familiars should give some kind of buff.

Erock25

@ZOS_GinaBruno I am wondering if stamina sorc is in consideration at all by the dev team? If you look at my other post http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/152241/zos-do-you-intend-all-classes-to-be-able-to-focus-on-stamina-or-magicka#latest you will see that there is a glaring hole when it comes to what stamina options were offered to the Sorc. I am trying to provide good feedback here and wondering if I should give up testing stamina sorc or not?

cozmon3c_ESO

i agree with OP as a magicka sorc myself. seems reasonable to me.

Erock25

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

i agree with OP as a magicka sorc myself. seems reasonable to me.

I'm not asking for much. Stamina Sorc got so little that anything would be a huge boost for us.

ToRelax

Gyudan wrote: »

- Wards don't scale based on health but based on max magicka. I think that Hardened Ward (the morph with 30% increased shield strength on self should be stamina-based and based on max health, to give tanks some form of protection despite the lack of self heals.

With the already 15% reduce in shield strength in Cyrodiil that would be a 30% nerf to Hardened Ward in PvP now. I don't think I can agree on that...

Edit: btw, if a tank is using Clannfear now he won't lack selfheal anymore, as the heal is free when it's needed, can be used while in hard CC and comes with 15% max magicka restore.

Erock25

ToRelax wrote: »

Edit: btw, if a tank is using Clannfear now he won't lack selfheal anymore, as the heal is free when it's needed, can be used while in hard CC and comes with 15% max magicka restore.

I apologize for being daft, but how does unsummoning a clannfear return health to the caster? It looks like clannfear does restore health when it dies. never noticed that. Also, tanking in group pve + clannfear is basically useless because of how they set up the pet taunt system (if more than just sorc is on aggro charts, clannfear has no taunt).

edit: i'm daft

stephkisten_ESO

Expert Mage change in 1.6.3 screws stamina sorcs. As a stamina user i dont need spell damage but need lightning spell cost reduction. I run out of mana after using crit surge and lightning form on the PTS.