Legerdemain - The path of Thievery

umagon

So has anyone looted any thing that was epic but not a motif or recipe? Some of the banks have master level safe boxes and some of the inns have advance boxes , but all the ones I have opened most of the time have blue items which are worth 250g and about 100g. I guess I am wondering where are large heist items. I mean right now I can make ~30k per day but that isn't a lot and I would have to spend most of the day cracking safe boxes to do it.

DeLindsay

I've looted 3 epics (the 750g each ones) in my VR7 Zone since 1.6 hit Live. TBH I got so burnt out on Legerdemain on PTS that I haven't pushed it hard at all since it's been on Live, I'm still not even Rank 12 yet lol. I will be continuing this thread though, as I find more tips and tricks and notice any discrepancies with the OP. It's a matter of me testing many other things out right now like all my 1.6 builds (Tank/Healing is in PvE is so easy now) and once I'm good with those I will be able to relax more and live the Thieving life

Robotmafia

DeLindsay wrote: »

**Updating to be Accurate as of Live build 1.6.5**

**Bounty Decay:

• 22.5 Gold every 3 Minutes while Online or Offline.
• 450 Gold every 1 Hour.
• 6300 Gold every 1 Day.
• Yes, it decays all the way to 0.

Hey first of all thanks for your work and the nice guide quick question concerning the above numbers.

you say 450 per hour and 6300 per day but if I calculate 450x24 I get 10800. Is there a diminishing return on those 450 on a 24 hour time span?

thanks again

DeLindsay

Robotmafia wrote: »

Hey first of all thanks for your work and the nice guide quick question concerning the above numbers.

you say 450 per hour and 6300 per day but if I calculate 450x24 I get 10800. Is there a diminishing return on those 450 on a 24 hour time span?

thanks again

No I must have hit a wrong key on my calculator, I will update the OP, thank you for finding the error.

DeLindsay

I'm going to be adding a Harvest Map of every City with regards to Safeboxes. It's going to take me a while because the map doesn't update unless I personally lockpick the Safebox/Chest. So far I've only got 2 Cities completely done with every single Chest spawn.

DeLindsay

@olemanwinter has started a Thread with a growing list and picture sets of the new Everyday Clothes HERE check it out when you get a chance, it's also been added to the OP.

MorHawk

K, so I've finally got around to timing the decay myself, and while I can confirm the 3 minute duration for the tick, I have found it to consistently be -10 each time, giving a daily reduction of 7,200.

For context, I am currently just above 10k, and it seems like this has been constant since I was at 35k. Perhaps it accelerates once you get low enough? I will keep a close eye on it over the next couple of days as it approaches zero.

DeLindsay

MorHawk wrote: »

K, so I've finally got around to timing the decay myself, and while I can confirm the 3 minute duration for the tick, I have found it to consistently be -10 each time, giving a daily reduction of 7,200.

For context, I am currently just above 10k, and it seems like this has been constant since I was at 35k. Perhaps it accelerates once you get low enough? I will keep a close eye on it over the next couple of days as it approaches zero.

It's possible, I checked it at fairly low values, sub 2K Bounty.

floorconub17_ESO

And pickpocket attempts in closed buildings with a low percentage chance of pulling it off is NOT advised
Dang doors be locked making it hard to escape those red guards that wished you a good day when you entered.

DeLindsay

I can confirm as of 2.0.1 ZoS didn't add ANY XP gain to Pickpocketing or Lockpicking a home nor did they increase XP for Safeboxes. Hopefully with the flood of new Players starting with tomorrow's B2P structure ZoS will have so many new people to have to answer to that maybe they'll start listening and actually increase XP gain from all playstyles (except grinding) and stop nerfing Grinding.

MorHawk

Okay, so I've tested degradation over the last couple days. Turns out it's not just a straight 10 off every 3 minutes, every so often an extra 1 comes off too. After 100 ticks, I'd lost 1015, so 15 extra. That means that sometimes it comes off after six ticks, sometimes after seven. Unfortunately the extensive downtime today prevented any further testing, but the amount I'd lost over the last 18 hours was fairly consistent with this.

So yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and say that the extra 1 gets added 6.6% of the time, or 1/15th. That means that the precise daily total is 24 hours * 60 minutes / 3 * 10, so 4800, plus 1/15th of that, so 320, for a daily total of 5120.

If anyone wants to confirm that, it'd be great. I'm about out here. Oh, also, I've confirmed that the rate does not accelerate at low levels, as I was at ~1500 just now and the tick was still 10/11.

DeLindsay

When I tested it I found it to be 22.5g every 3 minutes but it would be 22 gold or 23 gold because of rounding. The Bounty also increases by an uneven number too. It's actually 89.5 gold for 1 minor offense but it only shows 89 gold, that is until you get a second minor offense then it rounds up. When I have some more time I will test it again myself to see if that's still true on Live 2.0.1 as who knows what ninja changes ZoS could've done.

farrier_ESO

OP's list of loot doesn't mention the 132g or 174g whites Price seems to vary depending where you sell them: 132g in Windhelm, 174 in Vet level Shornhelm: items are Pocket Goblin, Sanguine Devotional Card, Tin of Dubbin, etc.
I think there's another tier with a strange price and color I've seen, too... I wanna say greens? Not sure, and not sure whether the price varies either: will edit next time I get one.

farrier_ESO

Posted this elsewhere, seems appropriate for this thread too:

0) beginning of each day, before earning any bounty, feed your horse. Also, do any guild bank/store stuff you plan to do, unless you want to do it with another character.
1) Always know the shortest route to the Outlaw's refuge. Which walls have gaps, which buildings you can squeeze between, which ledges you can jump off, which hedges you can jump over, which corners you can turn to escape that pull-back chain.
2) In strange cities, consider putting the map marker over the nearest Outlaw's Refuge so that you can find the way quickly.
3) Jumping off a cliff that won't kill you is a valid way to get away from the guard.
4) Guards have patrol ranges - if you run far enough, then when they catch you, they'll just whack you once and run off.
5) Learn the guard patrols. You don't want to run into another guard when escaping from the first - getting mobbed by guards is no fun.
6) Don't carry MUCH money: under 1k seems good. Guards are just glorified muggers, and will take what cash you carry (up to the value of your bounty), plus all stolen goods. If your gold doesn't cover your bounty, they'll take what you have and subtract it from your bounty.
7) It's almost never worth it to pay the bounty, if there's any chance you can get away, but refusing to adds a bit to your bounty. Compared to the amount of loot you're going to lose, this couple of hundred gold isn't worth much. Try to get away.
8) If you are a sorcerer or have any kind of summon or ally to distract the guard while you run off and hide in another room, you *can* get away even within a building. They will then either stop searching for you and return to their route, or kill both you and your ally. But if you manage to hide from them, you can escape out of the door. Sorcerers make great thieves.
9) When pickpocketing people, first ensure you are hidden. THEN look how easy it is to pick their pockets. Wait until the odds are 100%, unless you are feeling brave. 100% means no chance of getting caught by the victim and having a bounty. Passers-by can still notice you if you don't make sure you're safely hidden first.
10) When killing people, first make sure you are hidden, AND that there is nobody nearby to be attracted by the noise and see you. Then make sure you can one-hit your victim. This way, you get no bounty increase.
11) Past a certain point, it's worth just forcing locks on chests that are likely to get interrupted while picking. This does not count towards the lockpicking achievements, but does count towards the looting-chests achievement. Worst case, you break a pick and have to wait a moment to try again.
12) Get to know one city well, and get yourself a route. Work that route, learning all guard movements on it. You can earn about 15k/hr this way, at least until you've used up all your
13) While it's often worth paying off a bounty if it's small every time you visit the Outlaw's refuge, sometimes it's worth letting it just build up, then leaving it to decay overnight. This is why you fed your horse first thing: you can't do that with a bounty. Try to avoid getting more than a few k of bounty, though, or you'll just blow away your profits.
14) Every time you hit the refuge, the stealable containers (but not chests/safeboxes) in the world outside reset.
15) Higher level cities seem to have higher level rewards. Try to hit the main city of the highest level zone you can get to.
16) When picking open chests, if you do it from the far side of, say, a character in a chair who's facing the safeboxes, you can pick the lock *around* them without being spotted, as their chair will stop you from stepping forward to pick it. You can also pick pockets and locks through privacy screens, fences and other thin objects.
17) Try to do three laps of your chosen city each hour. Safeboxes respawn about every 21 mins (that is, every 9 or 10 Legerdemain ticks), so this will mean the ones you got in the first lap will be just appearing, and any others that appeared and weren't grabbed by others will also start synching their appearances to your presence. This increases your odds of grabbing them.
18) Enjoy yourself. Enjoy the guard speech when they catch you. The work put into the art and descriptions for the lore items (why oh why does the silver sweetroll have no graphic?). The joy of successfully eluding your pursuers, and the crushing sense of defeat if they kill you first.
19) Get an add-on to auto-junk anything that's stolen and worth less than 100g (my preference, Zolan's Junk Handler, can be trained to only junk the things that you personally mark as junk, though otherwise JunkIt has much more sophisticated filters).

Anyone got any other tips?

Ourorboros

18) Get an add-on to auto-junk (or better, auto-destroy) anything that's stolen and worth less than 100g (I don't have one of these, but wish I did - anyone got any suggestions?).

I like Junkit. Works well, and highly configurable.

farrier_ESO

thanks, I'll check it out.

20) If you are pickpocketing someone from anywhere other than directly behind, you may be unable to because they will be marked as "(Aware)". Shifting to one side or the other can fix it, but more often, moving closer will fix it better, strange though this may seem. I guess people are less aware of what your hands are doing if you're right next to them, rather than reaching out at them.
21) Whether you have a bounty on your head or not, always move as if you did. It'll save you those few times you forget you were bountied, and it is also good practise.
22) If you turn on showing people's health bars, people you can attack and pickpocket are shown with yellow healthbars, making them easy to spot.
23) Some items vary in price depending where you fence them - they will usually have non-round-number prices, like 132g or 174g. Seems like the higher the level of the zone you sell them in, the more it's worth. All the more reason to farm the highest level city you can reach.

DeLindsay

farrier_ESO wrote: »

OP's list of loot doesn't mention the 175g whites, or the... ack, there's another tier with a strange price and color I've seen, too... I wanna say 325g greens? Not sure, will edit next time I get one.

I've never found any 175 gold Whites, I even looted several of the Fishing Spool or whatever the other poster said he Pickpocketed that was higher than 100g and all of mine have been 30g. I have also never seen any Greens worth more than 100g so I'd love to see a sS from you and where you found it.

farrier_ESO

Damnitt, I just had a bunch and sold them! Oh well, I'm after this pickpocketing achievement anyway...

farrier_ESO

[Edited out various testing nonsense]

I have two sets of Refreshing Retching Tablets, now - one stack worth 132 each from Windhelm, one worth 174 each from vet level Shornhelm.

http://s13.postimg.org/dta50d2tj/Screenshot_20150318_020637.jpg

So, some items you can loot have leveled value. Ones I know of:
Dreugh Wax Corker
Pocket Goblin
Prurient Kerchief
Refreshing Retching Tablets
Sanguine Devotional Card
Tin of Dubbin

A last little something of joy, from /r/teslore, extracted and compiled into a spreadsheet by /u/dominoid73, a list of all the lore-lootables' item ids, names and descriptions (but not levels or prices): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JP3h2H1nSBtmrIPaNN9PY3QHGaWiYaP1Xqfc01OC3XU/edit#gid=0

DeLindsay

@farrier_ESO just out of curiosity are you EU? The value of White stolen items you are seeing not only varies but is completely contrary to what I'm seeing on NA-Live and even what I saw on PTS during both NA and EU turns. Also, you are one of only 2 Players who have said there are White items worth more than 30 gold, the other posted in this thread and it was a Pickpocketed "Fishing Spool" or something to that effect. I have not been able to replicate his findings even though I've looted that item a half dozen times. I will keep Thieving in hopes to replicate either of your findings, until that time I'm gonna leave the OP the way it is since the overwhelming majority of White items are 30g. It's also possible that a few White items didn't get reduced in cost during PTS and are still floating around.

farrier_ESO

NA live Pact.

I can confirm that I am seeing the FIshing Spool at 30, along with almost all other white items - it's just the specific items I've listed that appear to be priced at Zone-level-dependent rates.

Have you stolen any of these items? What values did they have for you, and what zone were you in at the time? It's possible they (incorrectly?) have a base price of 30, but it goes up by zone.

Do you have a pact character that can get to Windhelm, so we can reproduce this correctly by zone?

DeLindsay

farrier_ESO wrote: »

NA live Pact.

I can confirm that I am seeing the FIshing Spool at 30, along with almost all other white items - it's just the specific items I've listed that appear to be priced at Zone-level-dependent rates.

Have you stolen any of these items? What values did they have for you, and what zone were you in at the time? It's possible they (incorrectly?) have a base price of 30, but it goes up by zone.

Do you have a pact character that can get to Windhelm, so we can reproduce this correctly by zone?

I am NA-AD so Windhelm for me is VR4. Other than the Fishing Spool (to test it's value) I don't normally steal White items but even looking at them in containers I see them ALL as 30g/each, regardless of Zone. I have also never found any item, White/Green/Blue/Purple that has any different value based on Zone, nor did ZoS imply that Zone level makes any difference. I have stolen items from my Lowest level Zone to Craglorn with no difference whatsoever. In all cases it's always been 30g - White, 100g - Green, 250g - Blue, 750g - Purple, that is after ZoS's initial price reduction on PTS.

I will continue looking for those specific pcs you showed in the SS to see if maybe a couple items didn't get the proper price reduction back on PTS, anything's possible. The issue is, there are over 2100 unique items to steal so finding just 4 (the 3 you show and that Fishing Spool the other poster found) that show a different value than 30g is a challenge and a huge time sink.

farrier_ESO

Hrm. Are what items drop region-dependent, I wonder? Because while the spreadsheet lists 2k+ items, I haven't seen that many, at all.

If so, could be these (bugged?) high-price whites only drop decently regularly in the Pact. When I was doing my testing, I only ever needed to pick maybe a dozen pockets at most to get one. They drop decently reliably.

If the items drop homogenously, rather than region-dependently, then after doing a round of the city, there should be a few of them sitting there in your inventory Even if only a couple dozen items are affected, stealing until your inventory's full should net you at least one.

If @TikiGamer is right that it was the Fishing Line they got for 114, while I'm seeing it as a 30, though, that makes me think it's probably not as simple as just certain items being incorrectly flagged as leveled loot.

I'll do a few laps of Shornhelm and Windhelm tonight, and keep track of what drops from where, see if I can confirm getting them from sources other than pickpocketing. I'll also make a copy of the spreadsheet updating the items I get with value, location, and whatever other extra info. I'll also hit Craglorn, so we can hopefully compare like with like!

farrier_ESO

Adding to the above list of tips, some from @MissBizz in another thread, that should significantly reassure new players considering trying a life of crime. Some clarifying edits by me:

24) All important NPCs (merchants, quest givers etc.) can NOT be killed, angered, stolen from or otherwise harmed. They will not even aggro if you attack people near them.
25) All NPCs you kill respawn eventually, and will not be hostile to you. While you may get a bounty, you can not "break the game" by killing or stealing from the wrong person.
26) Try just stealing from boxes and whatnot first, pickpocketing is best left for when you have a higher skill. Always ensure your eye says Hidden before taking anything.
27) Always stealth and watch the guards, they have paths and at some point will walk away so you can quickly run by.
28) You can not kill guards. Stop trying. Just run. RUUUN!! He he Make sure you know how to break free.
29) Your bounty degrades over time, so try a new toon or log off to let it degrade. You can also head to Cyrodiil at level 10 where there is no justice system (and hence no guards, no pickpocketable or stealable things, and so no accidental increases to your bounty).

And more from me:
30) All the passives in this line are worth buying, but contrary to popular belief, the "force locks" improvement is perhaps best of all. Forcing a lock is close to instant (as fast as you can hit e then r), so if performed when hidden, it instantly and with no chance of bounty unlocks the door or safebox. It is also much faster, so means you can loot much more in each 20-minute cycle of your city. On failure, you break a pick, become non-hidden, and need to wait a few seconds to become hidden and for the lock to be pickable again, but this is still faster than picking the lock, and in that time you are not breaking the law, so are not vulnerable to bounties. This is critical for heavily patrolled safeboxes.
31) As well as containers resetting (already mentioned) all door locks to homes in the city reset every time you visit the Outlaw's Refuge.
32) For getting the lockpicking achievement, houses with multiple locked doors can *all* be picked in a single visit; unlock and enter through one door, then leave through another door, turn around, and pick (or force) it. I'm unsure whether forcing locks counts towards the achievement.
33) Some spells and abilities can really help. Already mentioned are the summons to distract the guards, but consider also any abilities that let you move faster, and so escape the almost-unreasonably long arm of the law when out of doors. Things like the wonderful "Rapid Maneuver" skill (Alliance War -> Assault), which is available as soon as you complete basic training in Cyrodiil (so, at level 10), can even be cast on horseback, and not only makes you move 40% faster whether mounted or running, but also *grants immunity to snares and immobilizations*. And removes any already applied to allies, if you get the morph. And it's an instant. And it lasts 17 seconds, at which point you can just instantly cast it again. Why don't you already have this skill?

DeLindsay

I extensively tested Shornhelm on PTS and got to Rank 20 Legerdemain almost exclusively with Shornhelm on Live and I can say not one single White item there was anything different than 30g. Now, like I said I have no idea if I've even seen the 3 specific Whites you listed so I'll pay more attention from now on.

TikiGamer

DeLindsay wrote: »

I extensively tested Shornhelm on PTS and got to Rank 20 Legerdemain almost exclusively with Shornhelm on Live and I can say not one single White item there was anything different than 30g. Now, like I said I have no idea if I've even seen the 3 specific Whites you listed so I'll pay more attention from now on.

I'm rank 20 on the live EU server now and I've seen many of these odd priced whites. I haven't seen any greens or blues variance. I can take some screenshots next time, but I'm leaving Legerdemain aside for a bit to catch up on CP.

TikiGamer

btw @farrier_ESO the original drops I got was around the docks in Daggerfall, but more recently in Hammerfell. and not just one item but at least half a dozen different white items seen now.

farrier_ESO

Good info, @Tikigamer - thanks

farrier_ESO wrote: »

I'll do a few laps of Shornhelm and Windhelm tonight, and keep track of what drops from where, see if I can confirm getting them from sources other than pickpocketing. I'll also make a copy of the spreadsheet updating the items I get with value, location, and whatever other extra info. I'll also hit Craglorn, so we can hopefully compare like with like!

OK, in Shornhelm, I've been hitting nothing but the safeboxes, and not a single one of these has dropped. This could be part of the reason you've not seen them, then: I think you mentioned that when leveling you mostly hit those. I must've opened maybe 50 tonight, about 100 items, and not a one was leveled. Yay, and I got the Treasure Chest Hunter achievement when I opened one of them! I didn't realize safeboxes counted towards that.

I pickpocket three times in the top half of the city, and on the third try, get a blue "Dwarven-rune handkerchief" ("A high quality silk handkerchief, carefully inscribed with dwemeric runes across its surface.") Level 50, 775 gold, from the Lion Guard to the SE of the Shornhelm Castle main entrance.

It was 26 more pickpockets before I got two more, white lvl 50 174s both from the same Easy target (Numaheh to the west of the Castle): Skeever Tail Stirring Stick ("A skeever's tail, preserved in wax. Some believe stirring one's drink with it brings good luck. Others believe it's disgusting") and Prurient Kerchief ("A kerchief with a red-stained beeswax kiss pressed into it. A blackmailer might find this useful.")

Then 14 more boring pickpockets, and then another two from a single Easy, this time Lea Rernis, who sneaks around the sheep to the SE of the Castle: White lvl 50 174gold Temporary Hobbling Stone ("A smooth, flat stone.It creates a convincing limp when placed inside a footwrap. Useful for paupers in need of added sympathy.") and the Green lvl50 335gold Stuffed Rat Carcass ("Stuffed with dried grain, this rat carcass seems to be useful for not only holding down papers but also impromptu tossing games.")

So, I think that is good evidence that your hunch is correct about it being an issue with pickpocket-only items. Five leveled items from pickpocketing less than 50 times; none from about the same number of chests. There's still a chance that this was just bad luck on my part, but a few more nights of the same thing would prove it beyond reasonable doubt, I think.

- Normal items are all level 1.
- These items are levelled - in non-vet Windhelm, they are level 32, in VR Shornhelm they are level 50 (which I guess is the max).w
- NONE of these are in the spreadsheet.

Hypothesis: they are new items added to the pickpocketing list after the spreadsheet was made, which were added after the PTS testing by a different developer, and incorrectly had the "leveled loot" flag set. Almost certainly a bug. Reported, so enjoy them while you can, if you get them.

Going to try Belkarth in Craglorn... yup, 14 pickpockets, then a Sanguine Devotional card (White, level 50, 174 gold).

DeLindsay

I guess I just need to do MORE Pickpocketing because I spent nearly 2 hours in Windhelm tonight, checked EVERY container and Pickpocketed MANY Citizens and everything was normal, no strangely priced items. Eastmarch is my VR4 Zone. As I said I will keep at it, but if you all think this is a Pickpocketing only aberration then I will do more of that than I do now. If we can determine that the higher priced items ONLY come from Pickpocketing I will adjust the OP to reflect. Also do make sure to at least jot down the name/quality of each item so we can get a proper count as to how many there are, an accompanied SS would also be nice but not necessary. So essentially these are the terms we need to define:

• Do they come from Containers?
• If they can be found in Containers, what types? (it's not supposed to matter)
• What Zone level were the items found in? (this is also not supposed to matter)
• If they ONLY come from Pickpocketing, what Level of NPC; Easy/Med/Hard?
• Is 114g, 132g and 174g the only three different prices for these White items?
• Is there also 335g greens and 775g Purples? (based on the above post)
• If so, where do those items come from?

From what I'm reading there seems to be 1 Green, 1 Purple and 4-12 or so Whites that are out of the normal price groups for stolen loot.

EDIT: I went ahead and adjusted the OP to reflect the findings above and will continue to add to it as we find/verify more.

MorHawk

DeLindsay wrote: »

EDIT: I went ahead and adjusted the OP to reflect the findings above and will continue to add to it as we find/verify more.

The unusually-priced items are interesting, but would verifying the bounty decay that I have demonstrated to now be out of date not be more significant?