Legerdemain - The path of Thievery

frould

deleted

DeLindsay

MorHawk wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

EDIT: I went ahead and adjusted the OP to reflect the findings above and will continue to add to it as we find/verify more.

The unusually-priced items are interesting, but would verifying the bounty decay that I have demonstrated to now be out of date not be more significant?

No I just forgot your findings and I've been sick the past few days so haven't checked it myself. I will do it today.

EDIT: I did various Crimes and got my bounty over 1K and sat and watched it decay. It's still at 3 minutes and I'm still seeing 22.5g/tick decay. I'm not sure how your decay is only 10g/3 min.

EDIT 2: Did a few more tests on a hunch that I had. Can I ask what level of Character you tested Bounty decay on? I ask because I found that it decays at a different rate based on your Character level (after just testing it) and all my findings are for VR14, as stated in the OP. For ex:

• VR14: 22.5g Bounty decay
• Level 28: 10g Bounty decay
• Level 27: 19.5g Bounty decay (will retest this when I get another 27)
• Level 23: 8g Bounty decay
• Level 13: 4.5g Bounty decay
• Level 10: 3g Bounty decay
• Level 7: 2.5g Bounty decay

farrier_ESO

Erp - hope you feel better soon

DeLindsay wrote: »

As I said I will keep at it, but if you all think this is a Pickpocketing only aberration then I will do more of that than I do now. If we can determine that the higher priced items ONLY come from Pickpocketing I will adjust the OP to reflect. Also do make sure to at least jot down the name/quality of each item so we can get a proper count as to how many there are, an accompanied SS would also be nice but not necessary. So essentially these are the terms we need to define:

Sounds good! Some screenies for ya!
http://s6.postimg.org/keibfvx7l/oddones.jpg

• Do they come from Containers?
  
  I'll keep trying this. Unfortunately, up until yesterday, I paid no attention to where stuff came from.
  
  Yesterday, while pickpocketing, it felt to me as if they were coming from a different list; but I didn't get enough data to say for sure. There are definitely *normally priced* objects which are on both lists, so if they are separate lists, there is at least some overlap.
  
• If they can be found in Containers, what types? (it's not supposed to matter)
  
  I've been targeting only the safeboxes: I'll start opening regular chests, furniture, crates, barrels and backpacks, too (those are the only things which drop lore items, right?)
  
• What Zone level were the items found in? (this is also not supposed to matter)
  
  Definitely worth tracking anyway, since for levelled items like these, it'll affect their level, and hence their price... at least if the level comes from zone level, as it appears to. But yeah - it shouldn't affect *drop rates*. We'll see.
  
• If they ONLY come from Pickpocketing, what Level of NPC; Easy/Med/Hard?
  
  In a small sample, we've seen white and green from Easy, Blue from Medium. I'm going to guess this is one of those "doesn't matter" things, but we'll see as we get more data.
  
• Is 114g, 132g and 174g the only three different prices for these White items?
• Is there also 335g greens and 775g Purples? (based on the above post)
  
  Given that they're leveled, there may be up to 50 potential levels (likely fewer, skipping some levels, as weapons/armor seem to). Unfortunately, the data points we have don't seem to be giving an easy answer like "30g at level 1, plus a level-dependent amount". Trying for a linear scale gives a base price of around 63.5, plus about 2.2 per level, which just feels wrong. I'll try pickpocketing in really low-level areas tonight.

[Edit to add:]

DeLindsay wrote: »

EDIT 2: Did a few more tests on a hunch that I had. Can I ask what level of Character you tested Bounty decay on? I ask because I found that it decays at a different rate based on your Character level (after just testing it) and all my findings are for VR14, as stated in the OP.

Ohboy, I really hope that's not true, or is marked as a bug and fixed fast if so. New players will have no chance of getting rid of bounties if it is the case.

Feels like there could be several things that might affect decay, so comparing like with like may be hard. I'll make notes on this as I go tonight, too, noting:

- Character level.
- Bounty level (and/or bounty rank?)
- Whether you are KoS.
- Legerdemain level.
- Passives? (none are MEANT to, but I could see it happening as a bug, eg if they originally considered this as an option, but never deleted the code that did it)
- Eso Plus (is bounty decay a kind of character advancement?)

DeLindsay

Ok, that gives me a lot more info to go on and now I think I know where to target to see if I can come up with similar results, thanks.

DeLindsay

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Ohboy, I really hope that's not true, or is marked as a bug and fixed fast if so. New players will have no chance of getting rid of bounties if it is the case.

Feels like there could be several things that might affect decay, so comparing like with like may be hard. I'll make notes on this as I go tonight, too, noting:

- Character level.
- Bounty level (and/or bounty rank?)
- Whether you are KoS.
- Legerdemain level.
- Passives? (none are MEANT to, but I could see it happening as a bug, eg if they originally considered this as an option, but never deleted the code that did it)
- Eso Plus (is bounty decay a kind of character advancement?)

You also have to understand that low Level Characters obtain Bounty at a smaller value than VR14's do. So even though my Level 13 only decays at 4.5g/3 min I was KoS at ~64g so it's likely based on a % of the value of the initial KoS amount. I will have to do much more testing to confirm that but it looks reasonable. My Level 27 was KoS at ~132g.

EDIT: I have ESO Plus until May, and my Bounty decay of 22.5g at VR14 was the same before and after ESO Plus went into effect, so it's highly unlikely that it effects the Justice System and Legerdemain.

farrier_ESO

Ah, bounties differ per level too? That's a relief, thanks!

farrier_ESO

Done with Fette, VR6.

In Bal Foyen (level 6 zone):
3 normals
Prayer Kerchief - white - lvl6 - 60g - From medium
7 normals
Decorative Scalp - white - lvl6 - 60g - From Easy
3 normals
Palm flask - white - 6 - 60 - ??
2 normals
Joint Salve Jar - white - 6 - 60 - ??
1 normal
Bloody Buttons' Ragamuffin - white - 6 - 60 - Easy
Hauler's Straps - white - 6 - 60 - From same easy as above.
3 normals
Hooked Scraper - white - 6 - 60 - Easy
Footwear Repair Kit - white - 6 - 60 - From same easy as above.
Hauler's Straps - white - 6 - 60 - From same easy as above.
2 normals
Hooked Scraper - white - 6 - 60 - Easy
15 normals (including Spool of Fishing Line)
Swaddler's Sack - white - 6 - 60 - Easy

Most of these are coming from Easys, but this is most likely because there are more of them, and I pick them three times rather than once. Bal Foyen total: 33 normal (30 white, 3 green), 11 leveled (all white). Looks like about a 4:1 drop rate here.

Bounty ticks I noticed: 490 -> 470 -> 450, and 411 -> 392

Stonefalls (level 4 zone)
6 normals
Tin of Dubbin - white - 4 - 54 - Easy
5 normals
Baling Hook - white - 4 - 54 - Easy
Hauler's Straps - white - 4 - 54 - Easy
3 normals
2 x Swaddler's Sack - white - 4 - 54 - both from same Easy
15 normals

So, from that, we know:
lvl 4 = 54 gold
lvl 6 = 60 gold
lvl 31 = 132 gold
lvl 50 = 174 gold

So it seems decently certain that:
- It's leveled to zone.
- Prices for white are very roughly 40 + 2.8/level. I suspect it's non-linear because some lower levels aren't counted.

Next to see if I can get any to spawn from containers...

DeLindsay

farrier_ESO wrote: »

So, from that, we know:
lvl 4 = 54 gold
lvl 6 = 60 gold
lvl 31 = 132 gold
lvl 50 = 174 gold

So it seems decently certain that:
- It's leveled to zone.
- Prices for white are very roughly 40 + 2.8/level. I suspect it's non-linear because some lower levels aren't counted.

Next to see if I can get any to spawn from containers...

To make sure I'm clear on what you're finding. So far all items with a different price than the "normal" or whatever we're going to call it have been (thus far) from Pickpocketing. As for Zone Level dependent I'm going to assume the LvL 50 ones come from ALL VR zones while LvL's 4/6's come from your own Faction's noob island(s) and the LvL 31's from either/both your own Faction's 3rd/4th Zones. Does that sound about right?

MorHawk

DeLindsay wrote: »

EDIT 2: Did a few more tests on a hunch that I had. Can I ask what level of Character you tested Bounty decay on? I ask because I found that it decays at a different rate based on your Character level (after just testing it) and all my findings are for VR14, as stated in the OP. For ex:

• VR14: 22.5g Bounty decay
• Level 27: 19.5g Bounty decay
• Level 13: 4.5g Bounty decay

Ooooooh. Right, okay. That explains why my bounty charges were different to yours too! I am at level 29. And doy, just saw your comment in the OP. Maybe worth bolding that bit so you don't get any more daft questions! lol

Okay, just jumped on PTS, and yep, VR14 template gets 179 bounty for animal slaughter vs the 81 I get. And yep, sure enough, 22.5 decay.

That does mean that there's an inconsistency between my results and your level 27 though. You sure that's right? Assuming not, that progression does make sense. ~5 gold while in your teens, 10 in your min 20s, presumably ~15 at level 40, then max at 50? Or does it keep going up after you hit VR?

Either way, I understand the discrepancy now. Perhaps it's worth including at least a couple of results as above, just to give people an idea of the growth rate? I can definitely confirm the 10 at level 29, at least. Well, close enough. Probably more like 10.15 based on my results. Maybe it'd be 10 on the nose at level 28.

DeLindsay

MorHawk wrote: »

Ooooooh. Right, okay. That explains why my bounty charges were different to yours too! I am at level 29. And doy, just saw your comment in the OP. Maybe worth bolding that bit so you don't get any more daft questions! lol

Okay, just jumped on PTS, and yep, VR14 template gets 179 bounty for animal slaughter vs the 81 I get. And yep, sure enough, 22.5 decay.

That does mean that there's an inconsistency between my results and your level 27 though. You sure that's right? Assuming not, that progression does make sense. ~5 gold while in your teens, 10 in your min 20s, presumably ~15 at level 40, then max at 50? Or does it keep going up after you hit VR?

Either way, I understand the discrepancy now. Perhaps it's worth including at least a couple of results as above, just to give people an idea of the growth rate? I can definitely confirm the 10 at level 29, at least. Well, close enough. Probably more like 10.15 based on my results. Maybe it'd be 10 on the nose at level 28.

OP is now Bolded.

I'm planning on testing all the Level variations I have with my 8 Characters just as a test to see if I can determine the equation based on Level. Also, one thing that makes me wonder now, if Bounty decay is based on crime committed (at lower levels). That 27, all I did was attack an innocent then jumped into the Refuge to watch the decay. On my 13, I didn't attack anyone, but purposely got caught stealing from containers 4-5 times and 1 failed Pickpocket to test her decay. I can say for sure it makes no difference at VR14, as I thoroughly tested that from various Crimes. As I've been sick all I'm doing is sleeping a few hours then jumping on ESO to test Legerdemain stuff, then more sleep lol. I will be adding an addendum to the OP with regards to Bounty %/Level and Decay as soon as I figure out the formula (or someone smarter than me does).

Also, @farrier_ESO I'm either seriously unlucky or you're really lucky because after a good 5-6 hours on/off I cannot replicate your higher value stolen items. I've Pickpocketed whole Towns including all 3 difficulty levels and only get 30g Whites, 100g greens, and 250g Blues. I tried this in 3 diff low level Zones and my VR4, all the same results. Now, I haven't found any of the items you listed specifically so there's still hope for me yet.

Davadin

did a killing spree at Riften yesterday and got over 6k bounty. That was fun.

but after a few hours logged off, I'm back to zero.

that's a bit disappointing. Looking forward for a... bigger consequences. Kinda took the edges off....

MorHawk

Davadin wrote: »

did a killing spree at Riften yesterday and got over 6k bounty. That was fun.

but after a few hours logged off, I'm back to zero.

that's a bit disappointing. Looking forward for a... bigger consequences. Kinda took the edges off....

6k bounty would take 13 hours to go, even at max level, so more than a full day for me. Yes, the justice system benefits those of us who sleep and work after we're done playing, meaning there's something like a 16 hour gap to let bounties evaporate, but I really don't see any way around that, unless you're suggesting halving the rate? I don't think folks with six-figure bounties would thank you for that.

farrier_ESO

DeLindsay wrote: »

To make sure I'm clear on what you're finding. So far all items with a different price than the "normal" or whatever we're going to call it have been (thus far) from Pickpocketing. As for Zone Level dependent I'm going to assume the LvL 50 ones come from ALL VR zones while LvL's 4/6's come from your own Faction's noob island(s) and the LvL 31's from either/both your own Faction's 3rd/4th Zones. Does that sound about right?

Prettymuch, though there's a little weirdness as Stonefalls is lower than Bal Foyen, likely because of the releveling they did just before release, to make it so you could skip the two starting zones.

Pact's areas open in the order:
Bleakrock -> Bal Foyen -> Stonefalls -> Deshaan -> Shadowfen -> Eastmarch -> The Rift.

Bleakrock (Couldn't find anybody to pickpocket)
Bal Foyen (Level 6 stuff, 60g)
Stonefalls (Daven's Watch = Level 4 stuff, 54g; Ebonheart = level 9 stuff, 72 gold; Kragenmoor = level 14 stuff, 90g [190g green])
Deshaan (Selfora = Level 20 stuff, 108g)
Shadowfen (Not tested)
Eastmarch (Windhelm = level 31 stuff, 132g)
The Rift (Not tested)
Coldharbor (Not tested)
Craglorn (Level 50 stuff = 174g)
Vet areas (Level 50 stuff = 174g)

White:
lvl 4 = 54 gold
lvl 5 = 54 gold
lvl 6 = 60 gold
lvl 9 = 72 gold
lvl 14 = 90 gold
lvl 20 = 108
lvl 31 = 132 gold
lvl 50 = 174 gold

Green:
lvl 14 = 190 gold
lvl 50 = 335 gold

Blue:
lvl 50 = 775g

DeLindsay wrote: »

@farrier_ESO I'm either seriously unlucky or you're really lucky because after a good 5-6 hours on/off I cannot replicate your higher value stolen items.

Wow. OK, that seems to really strongly point towards *something else* affecting it, too. But what? Alliance? Race? Class? IP number???

Fette's a F Bosmer Pact Sorcerer, legerdemain questline maxed, with all the passives.
What're you testing with?

I'll try again with my other alts, who're different in just about all ways. And, I suspect, rediscover just how hard/fun Legerdemain is at lower levels.

All this talk about bounties makes me kinda tempted to try to find out if there's a bounty cap...

DeLindsay

Male Bosmer NB, VR14-AD with Rank 20 Legerdemain and all points in Light Fingers and Trafficker wearing Both pc Nightshade and 5pc Night Mother's Embrace with 7/7 Medium and all Passives that improve Sneak. I can however test it (to a much lesser extent) on an EP Character where EP Zones are my main Faction Zones but since he's not a Bosmer/Khajit and doesn't have any skill in Medium Armor it'll be seriously rough going hehe. That LvL 27 is also Rank 0 Legerdemain so it would be a good long while before I could get to where I was similar to you in parameters.

I'm still sick so working on Legerdemain is about the only thing I can manage at this time so I'll keep at it.

farrier_ESO

Tried with three low-level characters, one for each alliance.

Orc Nightblade M, Pact, lvl 3, no legerdemain, Davon's Watch in Stonefalls, 2 normal pickpockets, then Tin of Dubbin (level 4, 54g).

Imperial Templar F, Dominion, lvl 3, no legerdemain, Vulkhel Guard in Auridon, 24 normal pickpockets (including some not seen in Pact like Veiled Heritance Codebook), then Prurient Handkerchief and Cat Whisker Ear Scraper, both from the same Easy, lvl 5, 54g.

Orc Nightblade M, Covenant, lvl 3, no legerdemain, Daggerfall in Glenumbra, 10 normal pickpockets then Skeever Tail Stirring Stick and Pocket Goblin (both white, level 5, 54) both from the same Easy.

This gives us some good info:
- Level 4 and 5 white leveled items have the same price, 54g, as I suspected.
- Whether they drop is likely unrelated to character's gender, class, race, alliance or level.
- The lists per alliance seem different (eg veiled heritance codebook would be meaningless outside the dominion) so alliance may affect drop *rate*.
- No Legerdemain passives are needed.
- The most successful pickpockets I've ever done in a row without getting a leveled item is 24, in the Dominion.

[Edit: I also edited the list in a post above with the known prices per level]

angelyn

All I want to know is...where can I find me a purple item ? I'm kidding- there's some very interesting stuff going on in this thread. I shall be watching with an eager eye.

farrier_ESO

I was wrong above, it was blue, not purple. Fixed.
I've only got one purple so far, and it was non-leveled, from a lockbox. It, too, was not in the spreadsheet, and is the only non-levelled item I've got that has not been in the spreadsheet.

"Vial of Ashpit Air", Purple, 750g, Pact, Strongbox, "This small ampoule is filled with a thick, roiling vapor. A small label with Mages Guild letterhead reads, "Air from Ashpit.""

Ysne58

Had something weird happen in Vukhel Guard when I was trying to steal from a dresser. Another player came up and stole from it and it changed from 'steal' to 'empty'. Does that mean these things are no longer instanced? There is nothing about that in the patch notes. I did file a bug report.

DeLindsay

I'm editing my post about Bounty decay on the top of this page, or click HERE, to reflect what I'm finding at every level as I level another VR14 (so painful to do with such horrid XP gain in this game).

DeLindsay

@farrier_ESO it looks as if all your hard work was for naught and my original suspicion was correct in that some items hadn't gotten the 1.6.X cost reduction nerf on PTS. Via Patch notes 2.0.2,

Justice System
General

• Fixed an issue with a small percentage of stealable items which had their item level set to scale instead of being locked to 1, which resulted in higher than intended sale values.[

/quote]

MorHawk

farrier_ESO wrote: »

All this talk about bounties makes me kinda tempted to try to find out if there's a bounty cap...

I've seen 1m+ bounties. Safe to say there's no max.

Ysne58 wrote: »

Had something weird happen in Vukhel Guard when I was trying to steal from a dresser. Another player came up and stole from it and it changed from 'steal' to 'empty'. Does that mean these things are no longer instanced? There is nothing about that in the patch notes. I did file a bug report.

Nope, same as treasure chests. First come first serve. They do regen quite fast though.

DeLindsay wrote: »

@farrier_ESO it looks as if all your hard work was for naught and my original suspicion was correct in that some items hadn't gotten the 1.6.X cost reduction nerf on PTS. Via Patch notes 2.0.2,
Justice System
General

• Fixed an issue with a small percentage of stealable items which had their item level set to scale instead of being locked to 1, which resulted in higher than intended sale values.

Welp, that's an easy answer at least.

FoxPT

Companions in crime a question.

If we stole a recipe and learn it before launder it any one knows what happen to that recipe if you are cought after?

Fox

DeLindsay

FoxPT wrote: »

Companions in crime a question.

If we stole a recipe and learn it before launder it any one knows what happen to that recipe if you are cought after?

Fox

Nothing, once you learn it you know it forever.

farrier_ESO

MorHawk wrote: »

I've seen 1m+ bounties. Safe to say there's no max.

It's a computer. One way or another, there's a max. Maybe 2^32 or 2^64, but there's always a max!

And sometimes, when you weren't expected to hit the max, interesting things happen. Imagine having a bounty of -2^31 gold. Guards would pay you the weight of the sun in gold for the pleasure of capturing you.

Fixed an issue with a small percentage of stealable items which had their item level set to scale instead of being locked to 1, which resulted in higher than intended sale values.

Excellent. Not for naught at all, the info was used in the bug reports and pinpointed exactly the problem (items added *after* the PTS were leveled when they shouldn't be). And that they fixed it shows that the bug reporting system is working well! Time to go make sure the items are fixed, though.

[Edit: ayup, every one of the items I'd laundered is now 30g or 100g - oops, shouldn't have laundered them, I lost out a few k there. Ah well! Fun bug while it lasted!]

DeLindsay

10 Towns now listed in the OP and growing. Even making maps via PTS isn't 100% accurate because some Chests/Safeboxes I know are there for some reason don't spawn on PTS but at least I don't have thousands of Players to compete with just to make the maps

EDIT: I'm still feeling the effects of being sick for a week so I will try and update the OP with even more maps tonight. I'm not really in a social mood so it's a good task to be on.

farrier_ESO

This is some really good work. Thank you so much for sharing it!
And you slaved over it while you were ill, too!
Glad to read that you're recovering

DeLindsay

14 total Town maps now and a summary at the bottom just in case you can't decide where is best to start your Thieving career. I will continue updating maps as I finish Towns or find new Safeboxes/chests in Towns I've already listed. My plan is to list the Major and Minor Towns in every Zone so Players have options when their favorite Town just happens to be overrun with Thieves when they want to make some coin.

Also, updated the formatting for the Map section so it's easier to read now that there's so many Town Maps.

Maddux

I hit Level 20 in Legerdemain today after 12 Days farming at the same Spot.
The Dres Farm in Deshaan right at the Outlaw Refuge has 4 NPCs with "Easy" in Pickpocketing and just 3k HP. So they are easy to onehit even for lower Chars.
You didnt make the Big Money there but it is a really good Spot if you just wanna level Legerdemain fast with low Risk. Just pickpocket them until they are empty, onehit them, repeat. You also can kill the little Guars and sell/launder there Items to push Legerdemain.

DeLindsay

I'm done. I will continue to update this Thread and others I have started as a courtesy to those who follow me but that will be the extent of any future development or testing for this game or helping the Player base. Unfortunately I cannot get into specifics as to what's going on but one could say it's a strong arm tactic being used by those in charge to control the flow of information.

Maddux wrote: »

I hit Level 20 in Legerdemain today after 12 Days farming at the same Spot.
The Dres Farm in Deshaan right at the Outlaw Refuge has 4 NPCs with "Easy" in Pickpocketing and just 3k HP. So they are easy to onehit even for lower Chars.
You didnt make the Big Money there but it is a really good Spot if you just wanna level Legerdemain fast with low Risk. Just pickpocket them until they are empty, onehit them, repeat. You also can kill the little Guars and sell/launder there Items to push Legerdemain.

Is EP the Character you were on? I'm AD and could not find the Guars you speak of but yes there are several lowish Health NPC's that are "Easy" for Pickpocketing there, good find.

Ospie

DeLindsay wrote: »

I'm done. I will continue to update this Thread and others I have started as a courtesy to those who follow me but that will be the extent of any future development or testing for this game or helping the Player base. Unfortunately I cannot get into specifics as to what's going on but one could say it's a strong arm tactic being used by those in charge to control the flow of information.

Concerned about whatever's caused that. However I must thank you for this thread, I found it to be a great resource for legerdemain information. Also I thought your ideas regarding experience for legerdemain to be well thought out.