Nightblades 1.6 Discussion

DeLindsay

Am I the only one on PTS that's seeing Transfer as the exact same value for 1/2 as it is for 2/2? The 1.6.2 patch was supposed to change it yet it reads for both 1/2 and 2/2 "Activating a Siphoning ability grants 1 additional Ultimate. This effect has a 6 seconds cooldown."

Helluin

DeLindsay wrote: »

Am I the only one on PTS that's seeing Transfer as the exact same value for 1/2 as it is for 2/2? The 1.6.2 patch was supposed to change it yet it reads for both 1/2 and 2/2 "Activating a Siphoning ability grants 1 additional Ultimate. This effect has a 6 seconds cooldown."

I used FTC and CLS as addons to check this better.
It seems a typo in the tooltip, so I wrote a bug ticket.
With 2/2 transfer, infact I was gaining 2 ultimates.

While testing this, I saw also that after a while a character stops to gain any ultimate from light/heavy attacks and so Transfer as well.
It's not a matter of CD, the character stopped to gain any ultimate but for the ammount from Soul Harvest.
I reported this as well.

At first, I thought it was a bug related to the CD on Transfer not resetting and messing also light/heavy attacks, but I experienced this also while using a DK.

Comparing NB Transfer to DK Mountain’s Blessing (activating an Earthen Heart ability grants 2 additional ultimate and minor brutality to allies within 30m, increasing weapon damage by 5% for 20 seconds), I see that the DK passive has no CD.
I don't know if the CD is missing on the tooltip of Mountain's Blessing since on PTS notes 1.6, 1.6.1, 1.6.2 there is no hint about it, but imho both passive skills should have a CD or not.
One passive using a CD, the other one not, it's not really balanced.
On top of it, Mountain's Blessing provides also a buff to party.

Helluin

With the changements in 1.6.2 on critical chances to reverse what done in 1.6 (set bonuses and medium armor passive) and Carnage (Khajiit passive) still at 6%, also Pressure Points (Assassination passive skill) should regain its previous values.

It seems that this passive was forgotten when switching back to all critical chances previous values.
@Zos_GinaBruno could you please check this?


But for Pressure Points, I still think that the Assassination passive Executioner has a name that it's not really related to what provided by the actual bonus (X magicka over time when killing a target).
To be something more in line with the "Executioner" term, it could grant:
- X% more damage on low health targets
- or X% more critical damage on low health targets
- or X% more critical chances on low health targets

Otherwise a name like Killer's Instinct would be better with the magicka bonus.

killedbyping

Any1 found any viable Stamina builds so far ?
How does Bow builds feel on PTS ?

killedbyping

Helluin wrote: »

But for Pressure Points, I still think that the Assassination passive Executioner has a name that it's not really related to what provided by the actual bonus (X magicka over time when killing a target).
To be something more in line with the "Executioner" term, it could grant:
- X% more damage on low health targets
- or X% more critical damage on low health targets
- or X% more critical chances on low health targets

Otherwise a name like Killer's Instinct would be better with the magicka bonus.

No no, this terribly low ammount of magicka, generated under terribly long period of time, given only under redicilous conditions are perfectly fine for a Skill lane which is now good only for stamina builds (even if it has any use for Magicka builds, this passive are still worthless).

I also stated this in feedback. Executioner should some bonuses to finishing off your target, else the name of this passive make no sense.

Helluin

Destruction Expert 2/2 (last passive of Destruction staff skill line) provides 100% more magicka istantly but there are no finisher skills.
A magicka NB can decide how to finish a target between Impale (more damage, less magicka gained) or a Destruction staff skill or attack (less damage, more magicka gained).
It's balanced from this point of view, even if I admit that the magicka from Executioner is really low, also because over time.
I often wrote feedbacks about this too.

Imho, what you suggested and I posted before would be more fitting Executioner.

Helluin

killedbyping wrote: »

Any1 found any viable Stamina builds so far ?
How does Bow builds feel on PTS ?

I would wait the end of PTS to decide a viable Stamina build, probably there are still more changements in next patches.
Atm there are some interesting options, even if limited (not exactly a great build diversification, but for few skills).
Bow is good as opener and in PvP for certain game styles, while in PvE so far the dps seems lower compared to DW and especially 2H.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

xaraan wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

What's wrong with strife? Arguably one of the best skills we have.

For Strife, it's not that great of a heal unless you are spec'd into magicka/spell power. I have a stamina NB and a tank NB and it's a pretty sad heal for both of them and it's really the only heal we have in the game (not counting being surrounded by mobs for sap or the heals you can get from killing something, i.e. fight is over). I've found it pretty weak playing a tank compared to other tank builds I have like breath of life, dragon's blood or even sorc shields. A HoT of 70 isn't going to do much to compare to those.

I'd rather see something like instead of the morph that gives increase to healing done buff it gives double the HoT on the first tick. So, in my example above, I would get 140 instead of 70 from the first tick and that would make it so I could spam it a few times to get a dragon's blood sized heal if needed. It still wouldn't be quite as equal to the insta-heal of a breath or blood, but it would keep things in line with the way the power works and still give the Nightblade a bit of a burst heal.

If they needed to control the power more to keep magicka builds from getting to crazy with it, they could always choose a set heal amount no matter your magicka and spell power and just let those scale up the damage portion of the power.

Yeah, as a tank or stamina NB, the heal from Strife and it's morphs is pretty weak. Entropy is a more reliable choice for a HoT because the heal isn't affected by the damage you do (and it's other effects aren't bad either). NB big self-heals currently come from potions -- this is why the Catalyst passive change is so terrible. My Argonian NB tank, which has +45% potion effectiveness and +41% healing received (and a mix of potion speed and health potion buff glyphs), gets over 1.5k hp from health potions. What's great is that this costs no resources, unlike other class's abilities. However, this great utility is completely gone from 1.6, and they also nerfed the +healing received of Swallow Soul down to 8% from 10% for no apparent reason other than consistency with the Minor buff values. The other ability changes in 1.6 will overall make NB tanks stronger, but the change to Catalyst (and Argonian Amphibious) just blows in comparison. I think your idea about doubling the first heal on Strife/its morphs is a good one, as well as changing Catalyst to something actually useful for survivability.

ZRage

What do you think guys about changes to NB passives?

Because I'm not a fan of catalyst change, neither like this ultimate passive seem underpowered a lot.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

ZRage wrote: »

What do you think guys about changes to NB passives?

Because I'm not a fan of catalyst change, neither like this ultimate passive seem underpowered a lot.

Yep. A thread was just created about it.

Cody

ZRage wrote: »

What do you think guys about changes to NB passives?

Because I'm not a fan of catalyst change, neither like this ultimate passive seem underpowered a lot.

the catalyst change was complete BS and needs to be changed back ASAP

keni_harringtonb16_ESO

DeLindsay wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

- Siphoning Attacks have a debuff, which is now too much. Earlier it was less of a problem because soft caps mitigated it. I think the debuff should be removed completely. Replace it with a buff, e.g. minor protection. I compare it to e.g. Inner Light and Inferno. Both got their debuffs changed to buff. Overall these debuffs are dropping away and this one should too.
- Sap Essence feels too expensive. Even with 40 points in magicka, some spellcost CP, all glyphs and SA on, magicka depletes rather quickly. It should be just-about sustainable on such maximized builds. It's the hallmark of mage nightblades being able to tear through unlimited numbers of mobs. Please keep it that way in future.

SA has the debuff for a reason, it gives us NB's nearly unlimited resources, ZoS should NOT remove this. Sap Essence costs so much because it's a great ability. It needs to have a heavy cost and if you are using SA with it you can still pretty much perma spam it, no change needed.

i understand where your coming from but they also put a 1second global CD on SA and didnt even note it i hope they either remove the debuff or remove the CD or atleast lower it to 0.25 like they did to sorcs surge just my 2 cents worth

ThatNeonZebraAgain

keni_harringtonb16_ESO wrote: »

SA has the debuff for a reason, it gives us NB's nearly unlimited resources, ZoS should NOT remove this. Sap Essence costs so much because it's a great ability. It needs to have a heavy cost and if you are using SA with it you can still pretty much perma spam it, no change needed.

i understand where your coming from but they also put a 1second global CD on SA and didnt even note it i hope they either remove the debuff or remove the CD or atleast lower it to 0.25 like they did to sorcs surge just my 2 cents worth
[/quote]

When did they do this? First I've heard of it, but now it explains so much...

Synozeer

keni_harringtonb16_ESO wrote: »

i understand where your coming from but they also put a 1second global CD on SA and didnt even note it i hope they either remove the debuff or remove the CD or atleast lower it to 0.25 like they did to sorcs surge just my 2 cents worth

It always had a 1 second global CD, they just didn't state it.

keni_harringtonb16_ESO

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

keni_harringtonb16_ESO wrote: »

i understand where your coming from but they also put a 1second global CD on SA and didnt even note it i hope they either remove the debuff or remove the CD or atleast lower it to 0.25 like they did to sorcs surge just my 2 cents worth

It always had a 1 second global CD, they just didn't state it.

i was unsure as to if it did have the 1 second CD but then i went onto live and just pummeled with a bunch of light attacks and every hit procced the 3% also i tried it with leeching bcuz i was going to work leeching into my 1.6 test and that also doesnt have a 1 sec CD on live but it does on 1.6 honestly i would say to go check again bcuz im 99% sure its not got the CD on live but has on 1.6 honestly go try

Varicite

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

keni_harringtonb16_ESO wrote: »

i understand where your coming from but they also put a 1second global CD on SA and didnt even note it i hope they either remove the debuff or remove the CD or atleast lower it to 0.25 like they did to sorcs surge just my 2 cents worth

It always had a 1 second global CD, they just didn't state it.

This is correct, I've got combat log screenshots from pre-patch that can prove this.

DeLindsay

1.6.3: SA debuff reduced to 17% (Rank IV) and Transfer CD reduced to 4 seconds.

helediron

New suggestion: The Funnel Health is currently too weak and too cheap for a full magicka build. Because siphoning build uses Sap Essence and Funnel health as their spam spells, the difference of cost between Sap and Funnel is breaking the build. Also DPS is very low.

I suggest Funnel Health morph will be 50% more expensive than base and also does 50% more damage. At the same time, the healing could be reduced to 20% of damage but increased to three allies.

Currently on my build Funnel costs 1132 and does 3522 damage with SA on. 50% increase would make them 1698 cost and 5283 damage. Cost of Sap Essence is now 2686. There is still 1000 cost difference for throwing in some DoTs with Funnel. With around 50% crit the average damage of Funnel should be around 7,5K.

Reasons:
- The Swallow Soul is great for stamina builds being so cheap, but Funnel Health doesn't match full magicka/SA build. It is too weak.
- Make sustained single target DPS more comparable to 2H build. It should increase from around 6K to 9K.
- Dropping healing compensates damage increase.
- Increasing allies from 2 to 3 is a perfect match for four-man groups.

This was tested on unchanged 1.5 build: 4Aether, 4Twilight, 3Soulshine, resto/destro, 20health, 42magicka, 70 CP.
1 fire, precise, poison: Impale, Cripple, Funnel, SA, IL, Veil
2 resto, precise, hardening: Rapid Regen, Unstoppable, Sap, SA, IL, Veil

Soulac

So only 10-13minutes for an extra ultimate usage? Best. Passive. Ever.

....

Helluin

I read all posts here and many threads about NB on PTS (starting from 1.6).
Without opening a new discussion - topic, I recap here what it's still not addressed in 1.6.3.
I skip what already fixed/addressed like Aspect of Terror, Siphoning Attacks, Grim Focus working on shielded targets, etc.

Hopefully this should help ZOS team and us to find faster info about bugs, typos, feedbacks and concerns for this PTS.

If I missed something, please add it so I will edit this post.


Assassination

1. Death Stroke and morphs: tooltip is still unclear. Does the +20% damage bonus have a duration like on live servers or is it always up on target untill dead?
2. Killer's Blade: the damage written on tooltip is magic. Is this a typo? If not, being a stamina morph, does it still use armor penetration?
3. Grim Focus and morphs: according to many it should have a longer duration or it should require less light/heavy attacks to be used. Atm PvE wise it means have a lower dps. Since this skill is scaling of the highest stat, stamina/weapon dmg or magicka/spell dmg, it is still unclear if the critical chances and penetration used are according to the highest stat or not. As animation/effect the spectral bow - Assassin's Will can be improved. A good number of players are missing Haste.
4. Executioner: the magicka provided by this passive is quite low. Some players are suggesting a different passive to be more in line with the term "Executioner".
5. Pressure Points: from 1.6 to 1.6.3 every passive skill and every set bonus returned to higher values like on live servers, this passive skill is instead the only one with reduced critical chances (from 3% to 2%). The value should be back to 3% per skill slotted because of consistency with all the changements across the pts patches. This is not only a matter of balancement but also because this skill line, as design, is deeply focused on critical attacks and critical damage.

Shadow

1. Shadow Cloak and morphs: there are still some issue with this skill and Dark Cloak especially. There are several threads on this matter. Some players are suggesting a longer duration and immunity to flare, other ones a reduced magicka cost, other ones to be a toggle on/off ability. About the issues related to Dark Cloak it is suggested a similar fix used before in other MMORPGs. Recently it was arised this matter about a class ability vs a potion.
2. Surprise attack: typo on the tooltip, Major Fracture works always and not just from stealth/invisible.
3. Summon Shade: as some NB players suggested the damage could scale off max health or the highest stat but it's not an urgent matter as other ones.

Siphoning

1. Strife and morphs: the ability is quite good but some tweaks are reported. Some players are asking for a first strong healing tick also against shield targets, some magicka NBs are asking for higher dmg because their dps is low, some stamina and tank NBs are asking for a stamina morph.
2. Agony: this ability is still considered quite useless since many targets in PvE are immune (some players are asking for new dungeons boss mechanics with targets to be crowd controlled) and in PvP the cast time is still long, intrerruptable while the CC is not an efficient one. There is a specific topic about Agony with many suggestions.
3. Catalyst: it seems every NB player don't like this passive skill with a buff to Ultimate points. What is most requested is the previous bonus, at least for health, magicka and stamina potions, or something helping with selfheal. There are many threads and posts on this matter, last one is this.

General concerns about NB:

1. A good self heal is missing or something could be improved in a skill or a passive. This request is common for every build but especilally from stamina and tank builds players.
2. The magicka cost of many NB utilities used in every build is too high, especially for stamina builds (Blur, Mark Target, Grim Focus, Shadow Cloak, Aspect of Terror, Summon Shades, Cripple and their morphs).
3. NB is a canonical TES class or a mix of some TES classes that are often hybrid ones using both physical and magical skills; in 1.6 hybrid builds, not just for NB, are a lot weaker than pure magicka or stamina builds, on this matter there are two threads: a more recent one about issues arised by the removal of softcaps, an older one about a suggestion for a different damage calculation able to help hybrid builds, tanks and also magicka/stamina builds of players unhappy with the morphs chosen to be magicka or stamina ones. Like for Templars and Dragonknights, several magicka NB players are thinking infact to keep the base skill avoiding to morph it so they are able to use the ability they want, even if weaker.This is a simple way to avoid a problem created by 1.6: there isn't a better diversification in builds but some players are more limited than on live servers. Infact there are several threads and posts about Assassin's Blade, Teleport Strike, Veiled Strike and their morphs.

General concerns related to not NB skill lines:

1. Major Brutality is granted just by 2H Momentum and morphs, so a stamina NB is forced to use 2 x 2H, bow & 2H or DW & 2H. Bow & DW, DW & DW, Bow & Bow are usable but without a way to gain Major Brutality (but for potions): according to some players this is a self inflicted nerf. 2H with a Major Brutality buff has become mandatory for stamina damage dealers preventing any diversification.
2. Flurry and Uppercut (Wrecking Blow) uninterruptable have become, especially the second one matched with Major Brutality, a skill to spam mindlessly. The highest stamina dps rotation is oversimplified and common for every class.
3. Bow: PvE wise, several players indicated that dps is quite low in trials and dungeon.
4. Vigor from Alliance War was the really expected healing for stamina builds as promised but, according to some players, the PvP rank required is too high, especially for the ones mainly focusing on PvE.

Cody

replace agony with some kind of "siphoning shield" a damage shield that heals the caster for about 30% of the damage inflicted upon them.

or something like that.

either way just remove agony. It will always be useless as long as it ends when the target is damaged.

oh and bring back the original catalyst!!!!!!

Cody

and yes, the PVP rank required for vigor, the 2nd and one of the only two stamina heals in the game, takes far to long to acquire. not just for PvErs, but for many PvPers as well. Most people do not earn 200K AP a day or whatever the advised amount per day is, and, at this rate, most people wont have vigor for quite some time(and only stamina build NBs or full on stamina builds(and some hybrid builds) even need this ability in the first place, so only about a fraction of the overall population even needs the ability, so why make it take so long to get?)

Ysne58

I do like the suggestion of replacing Agony with a shield that also heals.

Helluin

How is going on with 1.6.3?

So far I had less issues with Cloak but I want to test this more.

pmn100b16_ESO

Helluin wrote: »

How is going on with 1.6.3?

So far I had less issues with Cloak but I want to test this more.

I feel like cloak is a little better but still having its issues. Not removing some negative effects and still breaking for unknown reasons. The video first shows it breaking because the negative effect isn't being removed. Second time it breaks 4 times in a row for unknown reasons. Third time it breaks because of negative effects again.

http://youtu.be/8NfozvMj4zg

Also, it breaks when you use a potion.

http://youtu.be/EpmExkUQMJs

Bugged them both, lets see if we get anywhere.

Vordae

helediron wrote: »

Let me add my view is PvE, and there unlimited spamming IS important in end game. In 1.5 there isn't much debuff when spell damage is near soft cap. Less than 10%. So we are now OP and ridiculous, right? In 1.6 without fix no longer. That's the test result.

Okay, i can live with debuff, but it should be, say 10% to be in line with 1.5. But then again, look at inner light and inferno... Never mind, i have VR14 DK too, so i always win. Don't look inferno. Look at this light and relax... ZAP!

Inner light got buffed to make up for the 10% crit reduction nerf it took. They just put inferno in line with it.

keni_harringtonb16_ESO wrote: »

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

keni_harringtonb16_ESO wrote: »

i understand where your coming from but they also put a 1second global CD on SA and didnt even note it i hope they either remove the debuff or remove the CD or atleast lower it to 0.25 like they did to sorcs surge just my 2 cents worth

It always had a 1 second global CD, they just didn't state it.

i was unsure as to if it did have the 1 second CD but then i went onto live and just pummeled with a bunch of light attacks and every hit procced the 3% also i tried it with leeching bcuz i was going to work leeching into my 1.6 test and that also doesnt have a 1 sec CD on live but it does on 1.6 honestly i would say to go check again bcuz im 99% sure its not got the CD on live but has on 1.6 honestly go try

Light attacks fire off once a second on live so you would never hit the cooldown. Light attacks are faster in 1.6 so you hit the cooldown.

helediron

Vordae wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

Let me add my view is PvE, and there unlimited spamming IS important in end game. In 1.5 there isn't much debuff when spell damage is near soft cap. Less than 10%. So we are now OP and ridiculous, right? In 1.6 without fix no longer. That's the test result.

Okay, i can live with debuff, but it should be, say 10% to be in line with 1.5. But then again, look at inner light and inferno... Never mind, i have VR14 DK too, so i always win. Don't look inferno. Look at this light and relax... ZAP!

Inner light got buffed to make up for the 10% crit reduction nerf it took. They just put inferno in line with it.

This is now old news. SA debuff was reduced to 17% in 163.

DeLindsay

helediron wrote: »

Vordae wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

Let me add my view is PvE, and there unlimited spamming IS important in end game. In 1.5 there isn't much debuff when spell damage is near soft cap. Less than 10%. So we are now OP and ridiculous, right? In 1.6 without fix no longer. That's the test result.

Okay, i can live with debuff, but it should be, say 10% to be in line with 1.5. But then again, look at inner light and inferno... Never mind, i have VR14 DK too, so i always win. Don't look inferno. Look at this light and relax... ZAP!

Inner light got buffed to make up for the 10% crit reduction nerf it took. They just put inferno in line with it.

This is now old news. SA debuff was reduced to 17% in 163.

Indeed, but keep in mind 17% is roughly equal to Live after overcharged kicks in. On Live I get hit for ~18% so it was a reasonable change from ZoS and still puts SA pretty much on par with Live in regards to the debuff.

Crowzer

1.6 Question : does Blur and Evasion (active skill for mediuem armor line) stack ? Because they both give the same buff.

Soulac

Major buffs don't stack.