Please delay CP conversions till after VR is removed.

Faugaun

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

"at this time you have suffered no loss to deserve compensation"

The 70 cp at launch is in no way meant to be a compensation for loss. It is meant to be a bonus so people can jump in and see how the cs works. In fact, no one who plays this game and progresses their respective characters loses a damn thing. You and I and everyone else who plays this game gets rewarded in levels, gear, gold, items, experience etc. for everything we do. As a VR14 I don't have to 'suffer a loss' to be rewarded those 70cp, I will be given them because zos feels I deserve them because I am VR14. If you want 70 cp get off your ass and go level, period.

If it is meant as a bonus then why doesn't everyone get the same bonus? It makes perfect sense to give a bonus only to the people who need it the least...common that's a crock and you know it.

seanvwolf

Faugaun wrote: »

You're not making sense. CS launches we can both equally earn CP, at this time you have suffered no loss to deserve compensation. You still have your VR, You still have your VR gear, you still have everything you had the day before. Nothing is changed except now you can earn CP you still have everything else. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for you to then receive 70 cp at that time (which you didn't earn and you didn't lose anything so don't deserve compensation at that time) allowing you even greater power differential compared to everyone the day before.

I make perfect sense.

Maybe I should spell it out for you:

At CS Launch as you propose:
You: VR1 0CP
Me: VR14 0CP (70 waiting to be given after VR disappears; having already earned more than 5 million more experience beyond VR14, as well as having multiple alternate veteran characters which total maybe 8 million exp; a total of 27 million exp)

A week later
You: VR4 20CP
Me: VR14 0CP (because i haven't logged in)

2 weeks later
You: VR7 35CP
Me: VR14 0CP (still haven't logged in)

3 weeks later
You: VR 10 50CP
Me: VR14 0CP (quite a long break)

4 weeks later
You: VR 13 65CP
Me: VR14 0CP (just washing back to shore after the deadly cruise tragedy)

5 weeks later
You: VR14 70CP (you just earned your last 200k to fill out VR14)
Me: VR14 0CP (just released from hospital with orders to not excite myself, just sleep)

6 weeks later
You: VR14 80CP (gained 3 million more exp due to a long weekend)
Me: VR14 0CP (logging in intermittently to chat with guild)

7 weeks later
You: VR14 90CP
Me: VR14 5CP (have to wait for Veteran ranks to get the other 70 but I managed to get an extra million experience)

8 weeks later (Maybe VR removed)
You: 100CP (with only 20 million experience earned)
Me: 85CP (with 30 million experience earned)

9 weeks later (I've decided to stop playing for a bit and you managed to finally catch up in experience and content tackled)
You: 150CP (with 30 million experience earned)
Me: 85CP (with 30 million experience earned)

Still seem fair? Reasonable? If it does, we are done discussing this because you aren't understanding the long term implications of what VR14's are giving up) If we played at the same time, it would seem unfair to you, but it would be actually fair.

Tip: It doesn't take long to level up your veteran ranks if you stick to one character and do Cadwell's silver and gold. I made a vet rank about every day and a half and that was mostly spent fooling around.

BalerionBlackDread

"OK if CP compensation is given before VR is removed then VR14 have both CS and VR system benefits to help get exp faster while VR1 has neither VR nor CS benefits"

Those 70cp will not make that much difference in earning exp. VR1's and VR14's will be operating under the same system when it launches, the only new difference between then will be the initial 70cp. Let's say this system wasn't coming out, would you be on here decrying a VR14 having 240 sp/VR14 gear/more morphs? No, you wouldn't so, this is just about the 70 cp. And, actually if you go back and listen to guild summit about this system, you'll hear them say that the tweaks that these passives will provide will mostly be felt by the top 1% of players (if I remember it right, it's been a while).

TehMagnus

Well VR Ranks have 2 advantages:
- Attribute points
- Better Gear attributes.

Maybe the attribute points that we received for the VR ranks should be removed?

We used to gain attribute points up to VR1 and after that none. This was changed a couple of patches ago, why not revert it in 1.6 so that the void between VR1 and VR14 isn't as large till Update 7 drops & removes VR ranks and lowers armor level?

BalerionBlackDread

Faugaun wrote: »

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

"at this time you have suffered no loss to deserve compensation"

The 70 cp at launch is in no way meant to be a compensation for loss. It is meant to be a bonus so people can jump in and see how the cs works. In fact, no one who plays this game and progresses their respective characters loses a damn thing. You and I and everyone else who plays this game gets rewarded in levels, gear, gold, items, experience etc. for everything we do. As a VR14 I don't have to 'suffer a loss' to be rewarded those 70cp, I will be given them because zos feels I deserve them because I am VR14. If you want 70 cp get off your ass and go level, period.

If it is meant as a bonus then why doesn't everyone get the same bonus? It makes perfect sense to give a bonus only to the people who need it the least...common that's a crock and you know it.

It is a bonus because I played and leveled my toon to VR14.You don't get the bonus because you're not VR14. Bonus has nothing to do with need, it has to do with performance. It is why other vet lvls get compensated as well, based on performance.
In what industry, in what universe do people get bonuses based on need? If I get a christmas bonus for going above and beyond in my work, and you don't because you just did the bare minimum, would you decry my bonus?

TequilaFire

I am a little confused.
Unless they plan on stripping VR14 of all the extra skill points and gear when
VR is removed, a VR14 will be at the same power level anyway because they earned it, the only thing that changes is the label will be level 50.

So now the only issue is the initial CP reward scaled by VR rank which is fair.
A VR14 will always be greater than a VR1 regardless of what he is called.

So isn't the OP point moot?

Lynnessa

Faugaun wrote: »

It is about a fair ethical implementation

This new plan is as close as it will get to that, I suspect.

Faugaun

seanvwolf wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

You're not making sense. CS launches we can both equally earn CP, at this time you have suffered no loss to deserve compensation. You still have your VR, You still have your VR gear, you still have everything you had the day before. Nothing is changed except now you can earn CP you still have everything else. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for you to then receive 70 cp at that time (which you didn't earn and you didn't lose anything so don't deserve compensation at that time) allowing you even greater power differential compared to everyone the day before.

I make perfect sense.

Maybe I should spell it out for you:

At CS Launch as you propose:
You: VR1 0CP
Me: VR14 0CP (70 waiting to be given after VR disappears; having already earned more than 5 million more experience beyond VR14, as well as having multiple alternate veteran characters which total maybe 8 million exp; a total of 27 million exp)

A week later
You: VR4 20CP
Me: VR14 0CP (because i haven't logged in)

2 weeks later
You: VR7 35CP
Me: VR14 0CP (still haven't logged in)

3 weeks later
You: VR 10 50CP
Me: VR14 0CP (quite a long break)

4 weeks later
You: VR 13 65CP
Me: VR14 0CP (just washing back to shore after the deadly cruise tragedy)

5 weeks later
You: VR14 70CP (you just earned your last 200k to fill out VR14)
Me: VR14 0CP (just released from hospital with orders to not excite myself, just sleep)

6 weeks later
You: VR14 80CP (gained 3 million more exp due to a long weekend)
Me: VR14 0CP (logging in intermittently to chat with guild)

7 weeks later
You: VR14 90CP
Me: VR14 5CP (have to wait for Veteran ranks to get the other 70 but I managed to get an extra million experience)

8 weeks later (Maybe VR removed)
You: 100CP (with only 20 million experience earned)
Me: 85CP (with 30 million experience earned)

9 weeks later (I've decided to stop playing for a bit and you managed to finally catch up in experience and content tackled)
You: 150CP (with 30 million experience earned)
Me: 85CP (with 30 million experience earned)

Still seem fair? Reasonable? If it does, we are done discussing this because you aren't understanding the long term implications of what VR14's are giving up) If we played at the same time, it would seem unfair to you, but it would be actually fair.

Tip: It doesn't take long to level up your veteran ranks if you stick to one character and do Cadwell's silver and gold. I made a vet rank about every 8 hours and that was mostly spent fooling around.

And if you get your 70 CP up front and end up in a cruiseship wreck (BTW I lol'd at those comments ) and take the same amount of time off only to come back when VR system is removed ....then the end result is exactly the same. However, if you get the 70 Cp, do not go on a cruise, do not get in a wreck, and do collect $200 (monopoly reference). Then the entire time that we are playing side by side you have double strength from the combination of your 70 cp bonus and the VR14 bonuses which is unfair to all those who did not get the 70 CP.

TequilaFire

But you can still earn all those bonuses by playing.

dharbert

Stop crying, get off your butt, and get to VR14 before the update goes live. Simple as that.

/thread

RDMyers65b14_ESO

Please, no more delays for 1.6. That is, unless you want to buy me the bank upgrades. Any change now would delay the patch.

seanvwolf

Faugaun wrote: »

Then the entire time that we are playing side by side you have double strength from the combination of your 70 cp bonus and the VR14 bonuses which is unfair to all those who did not get the 70 CP.

While you are playing side by side you are also having Veteran rank bonuses...
I don't think you know how little difference there is between a vet rank 1 and vet rank 14... it's not as impactful as you might assume. The only exception being gear, which is where the real disparity has always and will always lay it's head.

BalerionBlackDread

Ok OP let's say you get what you want and the 70cp is calculated but delayed until 1.7. All the while during 1.6 everyone is earning cp's. When 1.7 hits all those who had to wait for their 70cp will now have probably 100-150 cp and now they will get 70 more, and they will have all skill points that they had (or more), they will have all the gear that they had (or better gear) and they will have all the skills/morphs that they had.

Now, all the players that you're championing with this topic, where do you think they'll be? They will be still under V14, still not have all the skill points, still not have all the gear and maybe have 50-100 cp's, then 1.7 hits and they still don't get the 70cp. So, assuming all of this how will it be any damn different if the initial 70 is pushed back?

Faugaun

magnusnet wrote: »

Well VR Ranks have 2 advantages:
- Attribute points
- Better Gear attributes.

Maybe the attribute points that we received for the VR ranks should be removed?

We used to gain attribute points up to VR1 and after that none. This was changed a couple of patches ago, why not revert it in 1.6 so that the void between VR1 and VR14 isn't as large till Update 7 drops & removes VR ranks and lowers armor level?

Removing the attribute points or giving them to people once they defeat Molag Bal either way, but that should be evened in my opinion.

Reference the gear/attributes would VR14 instead agree to lose their VR gear as soon as they receive the CP bonus ? Or is it imperative to have both vr14 gear AND CP equivalent to a VR14 (possibly more since 30 CP was supposed to be what the vet level dungeons were tuned to?).

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

"at this time you have suffered no loss to deserve compensation"

The 70 cp at launch is in no way meant to be a compensation for loss. It is meant to be a bonus so people can jump in and see how the cs works. In fact, no one who plays this game and progresses their respective characters loses a damn thing. You and I and everyone else who plays this game gets rewarded in levels, gear, gold, items, experience etc. for everything we do. As a VR14 I don't have to 'suffer a loss' to be rewarded those 70cp, I will be given them because zos feels I deserve them because I am VR14. If you want 70 cp get off your ass and go level, period.

If it is meant as a bonus then why doesn't everyone get the same bonus? It makes perfect sense to give a bonus only to the people who need it the least...common that's a crock and you know it.

It is a bonus because I played and leveled my toon to VR14.You don't get the bonus because you're not VR14. Bonus has nothing to do with need, it has to do with performance. It is why other vet lvls get compensated as well, based on performance.
In what industry, in what universe do people get bonuses based on need? If I get a christmas bonus for going above and beyond in my work, and you don't because you just did the bare minimum, would you decry my bonus?

In what universe do you expect new subscribers to join a game where only the top 1% receive 'bonuses' just because, with no hopes of ever catching up because if you do then they will ask for more 'Bonuses' because they are the top 1%....you want the subscribers to leave and f2p then that's the sort of biased system that will get you there.

Lynnessa wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

It is about a fair ethical implementation

This new plan is as close as it will get to that, I suspect.

Yes! Let's give VR14 bonus from CS and VR systems and give VR1 neither...that's fair (sarcasm).

But giving the bonus CP after VR is removed is fair (no sarcasm)

Paske

Faugaun

TequilaFire wrote: »

But you can still earn all those bonuses by playing.

Not as quickly as someone who gets the combined effects of VR + CS.

dharbert wrote: »

Stop crying, get off your butt, and get to VR14 before the update goes live. Simple as that.

/thread

OK but what about the guy who couldn't for <insert excuse here>. Its still not fair because I who had time to do that now get double bonuses, while he gets none...

RDMyers65b14_ESO wrote: »

Please, no more delays for 1.6. That is, unless you want to buy me the bank upgrades. Any change now would delay the patch.

So you would rather have a flawed system, that benefits you, while others get screwed? Instead of a system that is fair and balanced for everyone?

seanvwolf wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Then the entire time that we are playing side by side you have double strength from the combination of your 70 cp bonus and the VR14 bonuses which is unfair to all those who did not get the 70 CP.

While you are playing side by side you are also having Veteran rank bonuses...
I don't think you know how little difference there is between a vet rank 1 and vet rank 14... it's not as impactful as you might assume. The only exception being gear, which is where the real disparity has always and will always lay it's head.

But its still an unfair, double bonus, advantage .... Even if you consider it small.

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

Ok OP let's say you get what you want and the 70cp is calculated but delayed until 1.7. All the while during 1.6 everyone is earning cp's. When 1.7 hits all those who had to wait for their 70cp will now have probably 100-150 cp and now they will get 70 more, and they will have all skill points that they had (or more), they will have all the gear that they had (or better gear) and they will have all the skills/morphs that they had.

Now, all the players that you're championing with this topic, where do you think they'll be? They will be still under V14, still not have all the skill points, still not have all the gear and maybe have 50-100 cp's, then 1.7 hits and they still don't get the 70cp. So, assuming all of this how will it be any damn different if the initial 70 is pushed back?

If it is the same then why are you against waiting till 1.7?

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that when VR is removed the gear will be scaled down to level 50 (with the Zos statement 'the former VR gear MAY have an extra effect from the level 50 gear.

If you are willing to have all your gear scaled now in exchange for the CP now then the argument is less but not completely gone. Still the correct action is to give the compensation/bonus (whatever you want to call it) when VR are removed and not before.

BalerionBlackDread

Faugaun wrote: »

It is a bonus because I played and leveled my toon to VR14.You don't get the bonus because you're not VR14. Bonus has nothing to do with need, it has to do with performance. It is why other vet lvls get compensated as well, based on performance.
In what industry, in what universe do people get bonuses based on need? If I get a christmas bonus for going above and beyond in my work, and you don't because you just did the bare minimum, would you decry my bonus?

In what universe do you expect new subscribers to join a game where only the top 1% receive 'bonuses' just because, with no hopes of ever catching up because if you do then they will ask for more 'Bonuses' because they are the top 1%....you want the subscribers to leave and f2p then that's the sort of biased system that will get you there.

I never said the top 1% only receive bonuses (unless only 1% reached V14, which I doubt), this bonus is going to the people who got to V14, V13,V12,V11,V10,V9,V8,V7,V6,V5,V4,V3,V2, in a diminished capacity of course, based on how far they got. I am in no way a 1% er and I got to V14 by *gasp* playing the game. People will come to this game because it is a great game, not because they want to immediately be on par with people who have played since launch. Again, let's say that this wasn't coming, do you really expect to have the same gear I have (V14) if you're V1? Do you really think reasonable people wanting to play this game would expect that?

Lynnessa wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

It is about a fair ethical implementation

This new plan is as close as it will get to that, I suspect.

Yes! Let's give VR14 bonus from CS and VR systems and give VR1 neither...that's fair (sarcasm).

But giving the bonus CP after VR is removed is fair (no sarcasm)[/quote]

What 'bonus' are we getting from the VR system? Experience points? Because you and everyone else will be getting that same 'bonus'.

BalerionBlackDread

If it is the same then why are you against waiting till 1.7?
What do you mean it it's the same? I was trying to warn you, if it happens the way you want, you'll just be here again when 1.7 launches saying the same ***, only the gap will be wider.

Because I want to have some points right away to test the system, to see how respec goes, to what impact 70 passive will have on my immediate gameplay, to feel what it is like to not be knocked off my horse so easy (War Mount skill), to have some points to play around with, BECAUSE I LEVELED TO V14 AND ZOS SAYS I GET 70 DAMN POINTS.

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that when VR is removed the gear will be scaled down to level 50 (with the Zos statement 'the former VR gear MAY have an extra effect from the level 50 gear.

When VR is removed I will still have all my skill points, all my attribute points (I'm not 100% sure about gear) and have all the skills/morphs/passives that I had before, so basically as I understand it, going from VR14 to lvl 50 will just be a nameplate change.

If you are willing to have all your gear scaled now in exchange for the CP now then the argument is less but not completely gone. Still the correct action is to give the compensation/bonus (whatever you want to call it) when VR are removed and not before.

This is because you're still under the completely ignorant assumption that this a compensation for loss situation, IT IS NOT!

Faugaun

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

If it is the same then why are you against waiting till 1.7?

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that when VR is removed the gear will be scaled down to level 50 (with the Zos statement 'the former VR gear MAY have an extra effect from the level 50 gear.

If you are willing to have all your gear scaled now in exchange for the CP now then the argument is less but not completely gone. Still the correct action is to give the compensation/bonus (whatever you want to call it) when VR are removed and not before.

This is because you're still under the completely ignorant assumption that this a compensation for loss situation, IT IS NOT!

If its not a compensation for loss then why not go back to the 30CP plan?

Lynnessa

Those with the most free time will always have the strongest avatars. What's the big deal?

Faugaun

Lynnessa wrote: »

Those with the most free time will always have the strongest avatars. What's the big deal?

This is fine and as it should be.

We shouldn't however give the strongest freebies allowing them to get stronger faster....that's known as a positive feedback loop, where one advantage allows more advantage which allows more advantage thus prohibiting anyone from having the opportunity to catch up with those at the top, because those at the top are gaining the ability to further their lead faster than everyone else is catching up.

If you have ever been in or seen a system where this occurs (like real life economics where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer) then you know it isn't fair... Now real life economics is much more complex a difficult to fix...but a simple game system is easy.

BalerionBlackDread

Faugaun wrote: »

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

If it is the same then why are you against waiting till 1.7?

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that when VR is removed the gear will be scaled down to level 50 (with the Zos statement 'the former VR gear MAY have an extra effect from the level 50 gear.

If you are willing to have all your gear scaled now in exchange for the CP now then the argument is less but not completely gone. Still the correct action is to give the compensation/bonus (whatever you want to call it) when VR are removed and not before.

This is because you're still under the completely ignorant assumption that this a compensation for loss situation, IT IS NOT!

If its not a compensation for loss then why not go back to the 30CP plan?

You're looking at this bass ackwards. It is more like a compensation for accomplishment. The 30 cp were to be given to everyone, no matter there efforts (as long as they had V1). The people who had a V14 or more (who had put more effort in, accomplished more) wanted more points commensurate with their accomplishments. Now we have a system that recognizes each players accomplishments and rewards them accordingly. Even sub veteran players will have the reward of enlightenment to help them 'catch up'.

Kevinmon

Wow dude, seriously, STFU and get off the forums. (No offense)

Ruben

Stop having fun, guys. There is one subscriber who's bored. Fun is banned now.

Faugaun

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

If it is the same then why are you against waiting till 1.7?

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that when VR is removed the gear will be scaled down to level 50 (with the Zos statement 'the former VR gear MAY have an extra effect from the level 50 gear.

If you are willing to have all your gear scaled now in exchange for the CP now then the argument is less but not completely gone. Still the correct action is to give the compensation/bonus (whatever you want to call it) when VR are removed and not before.

This is because you're still under the completely ignorant assumption that this a compensation for loss situation, IT IS NOT!

If its not a compensation for loss then why not go back to the 30CP plan?

You're looking at this bass ackwards. It is more like a compensation for accomplishment. The 30 cp were to be given to everyone, no matter there efforts (as long as they had V1). The people who had a V14 or more (who had put more effort in, accomplished more) wanted more points commensurate with their accomplishments. Now we have a system that recognizes each players accomplishments and rewards them accordingly. Even sub veteran players will have the reward of enlightenment to help them 'catch up'.

So VR14 complained and put 100s of repeat threads on the forums because 'they weren't given enough freebies?'

Bouvin

Valencer wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Sounds a lot like you want a "no child left behind" policy for ESO. A policy that didn't work out too well either.

Would you also like those of us who have millions of gold to stop earning gold so others can catch up to the amount we have?

Riiight. That's exactly what he said

Would it kill you to wait for the rank-to-CP conversion until veteran ranks are actually removed? The OP makes a very valid point. If this conversion goes live in Update 6, VR14s will basically get even more bonuses compared to a VR1, for no real reason.

Ya... forget not just the extra time leveling, completing Caldwell's, beating your head against a wall in Craglorn... but also other things like taking the time not just to level a craft to 50, but all that time researching and collecting Tannis to make a set of Purple/Gold VR14 gear that will essentially be made into VR1....

Faugaun

Bouvin wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Sounds a lot like you want a "no child left behind" policy for ESO. A policy that didn't work out too well either.

Would you also like those of us who have millions of gold to stop earning gold so others can catch up to the amount we have?

Riiight. That's exactly what he said

Would it kill you to wait for the rank-to-CP conversion until veteran ranks are actually removed? The OP makes a very valid point. If this conversion goes live in Update 6, VR14s will basically get even more bonuses compared to a VR1, for no real reason.

Ya... forget not just the extra time leveling, completing Caldwell's, beating your head against a wall in Craglorn... but also other things like taking the time not just to level a craft to 50, but all that time researching and collecting Tannis to make a set of Purple/Gold VR14 gear that will essentially be made into VR1....

I am not saying forget those things, instead I am saying compensate when the loss occurs not before it possibly might occur if Zos continues and eventually removes VR system.

BalerionBlackDread

Faugaun wrote: »

So VR14 complained and put 100s of repeat threads on the forums because 'they weren't given enough freebies?'

Where does the idea of 'freebie' come in? To continue with your earlier economic analogy: If I go to my job, clock in, work 10 hours, then get paid time and half for that extra 2 hours, is that time and a half a freebie? Then to expand: I worked my 10 hour day, but you only worked and 8 hour day, should you then be able to collect that time and a half pay even though you didn't work the overtime?

Faugaun

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

So VR14 complained and put 100s of repeat threads on the forums because 'they weren't given enough freebies?'

Where does the idea of 'freebie' come in? To continue with your earlier economic analogy: If I go to my job, clock in, work 10 hours, then get paid time and half for that extra 2 hours, is that time and a half a freebie? Then to expand: I worked my 10 hour day, but you only worked and 8 hour day, should you then be able to collect that time and a half pay even though you didn't work the overtime?

So if I level to VR 14 in a few months (after this is all implemented) then you will give me the same thing?

nerevarine1138

Faugaun wrote: »

BalerionBlackDread wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

So VR14 complained and put 100s of repeat threads on the forums because 'they weren't given enough freebies?'

Where does the idea of 'freebie' come in? To continue with your earlier economic analogy: If I go to my job, clock in, work 10 hours, then get paid time and half for that extra 2 hours, is that time and a half a freebie? Then to expand: I worked my 10 hour day, but you only worked and 8 hour day, should you then be able to collect that time and a half pay even though you didn't work the overtime?

So if I level to VR 14 in a few months (after this is all implemented) then you will give me the same thing?

No, because you hadn't hit VR14 before the patch was implemented.

However, you'll still be earning CP as soon as the patch comes, so you'll easily get what you're after with a little bit of time. You don't get extra compensation because you were slower than other people.