State of the Game -- A Former PVP Guild Lead's Commentary

Agrippa_Invisus

Well, my time in these forums grows very short. I may not even get a chance to reply much to this thread, so I'll post my thoughts about what I'll be looking for in 1.6 and what I feel currently needs to change.

I feel ESO had an amazing foundation to build off of. The core mechanics of how combat worked were amazing and felt so very fluid for an MMO.

Then the players got their hands on it, balance issues started to come to the forefront, and the devs started tinkering with the game engine itself. That's when it all went to Hell.

The number one concern that needs to be addressed for 1.6 is lag and client performance. This game runs poorly -- very poorly. It runs worse than it did in patches 1.1 and 1.2 with 1.3 being a major culprit in the downfall of the game's performance. We have been putting up with these issues for months and they have only ever gotten worse with the exception of a 1am emergency patch to 'mitigate' some of the FPS issues caused by the lighting patch.

If these latency issues are not fixed, there is nothing on this Earth that will allow this game to maintain any semblance of a healthy player base.

The second most important thing from a PVP perspective is balance issues. This game has some very, very, very bad class and skill balance issues. There are builds that simply obliterate their opposition, not just in skilled hands, but in any hands. There are certain armor and weapon types where everything else is simply subpar. This is simply unacceptable in a game where it was advertised 'play as you like'... so long as it wears Light Armor and has some form of staff as a weapon.

This has improved, mildly, to allow bow users to creep into the meta as a force in their own right. Ultimately, though, it's changed too slow and been the way it is for far too long.

The things I feel that need to be looked at most, in regards to game balance, are as follows:

1. Armor types and their effectiveness -- LA needs a durability nerf the size of Tamriel, HA needs love in a severe way.
2. Blockcasting -- This, combined with the LA sustainability/durability balance issues, is what leads to the 'Ubertank DK' that is so universally loathed. ZOS, you're smart, figure out a way around this mechanic.
3. Stamina vs Magicka AEs -- There is no good reason that Steel Tornado is blockable while Impulse/Blockade aren't. This alone prevents Stamina from standing in the same place damage-wise in group situations. The same with Brawler and other 2H area abilities. Either both stamina and magicka AEs should be blockable or neither should be. I lean towards both should be.
4. AE Damage Scaling -- AE abilities should never substitute for single target abilities for damage. There's zero reason that Impulse should even approach skills like Crushing Shock or Lava Whip for single target damage. AEs make their DPS back by hitting multiple targets (and then some) for their cost. I don't care one whit if this requires PvE re-balancing, it's an imbalance in the current system.
5. Block Cost in LA -- Take the block cost reduction from the 1h/Shield line and stack it into the HA line so that HA + Shield = 1.5 block cost, while LA + Shield = terrible blocking. This has impact on both points 1 and 2.
6. Stacking Ground Effects -- They're invisible half the time due to spell effect culling, they contribute hugely to the lag, and frankly are being used in silly ways (blockade of fire through the grate of an inner ring keep over front door anyone?). Make it so, universally, any ground effect erases the previous cast and replaces it -- much akin to how Cinder Storm or Caltrops work. It's time for things like this to start behaving in the same manner.
7. Siege Damage -- Siege Weapons need to hit players way, way harder than they do. It needs to be very dangerous to be within range of a siege line's artillery. As it currently is, it's easier than ever to mitigate and heal through siege damage, even when storming a breach. As long as you don't linger, you'll make it through fine, and it is players who are far more dangerous.
8. Keep Wall / Door HP and Siege Times -- It is way, way too fast to slam down an empty keep. Even at rank 5, with 245K walls and 195K doors, I've dropped an empty keep in 2:30 (two minutes, 30 seconds) from first siege dropped to flags flipped to Ebonheart. There's very little time to react to this, especially if it's an outlying keep like Drakelowe, Brindle, or Dragonclaw. I think it's time to up the HPs of keeps or reduce the damage siege does to them -- whichever is easier to code. More fights, more sieges, less ninja flipping.
9. The Nikel Corridor -- Make this a more interesting place to fight. Add some cottages, huts, a village or two (easily destroyed and forgotten by Oblivion's time period), anything to make it so that area is as lively as other areas of the map.
10. Buff Servers -- Kill buffs outside of the PVP zone. It's time for Buff servers to die the death they deserve.

And that's it. I'm sure there's stuff I've overlooked, but ultimately this is the primary list of issues that I've personally had issues with my time in game. Some of it's petty, some of it's universal. I don't know if I'll get to reply much to this thread going forward, but I will be reading it.

You'll see me around after 1.6 is live.

themizario

Excellent, I couldn't agree more. Thanks for taking the time to write this.

Let's hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears and some changes come from this.

At the very least, a comment from ZOS that these changes are coming.

Rylana

Despite the fact I still disagree with your assessment of the current stamina/magicka balance, nail meet head.

Sharee

Interesting. I don't remeber when i last read a wall of text without finding something i disagree with, but this OP made it. Thumbs up.

Itoq

Well voiced and clearly laid out. Unfortunately, I fear that there is a timeline in place to profit from the investment in the game and a plan to not veer from that timeline.

That timeline does not include fixing the game in the foreseeable future. That plan does not include putting the resources and hiring/empowering the proper personnel to make this game nearly as good as it could be.

I suspect that after release to consoles (and the various fixes that follow) that the team will get back to overall improvements and polishing. Unfortunately,by making the goal other than one of a fine finished product, they already have set the corporate culture to be one of accepting mediocrity (and occasionally outright failure.)

Very few of us would bother posting if we didn't think that this game had high promise. Here is to hoping that things at ZOS can be turned around.

Lava_Croft

This is a good compilation of everything basically everybody has been saying for around 9 months now.

Morvul

great post OP!
nicely summarises basically all the major issues with PvP

Nermy

Totally agree... with the bits I understood at least... Nice one mate. Let's hope it's listened to.

I love this game and atm, the lag is what kills it for me.

coplannb16_ESO

signed, totally agree

ThyIronFist

Agreed with everything. ZOS listen to this man.

Eglath

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

3. Stamina vs Magicka AEs -- There is no good reason that Steel Tornado is blockable while Impulse/Blockade aren't. This alone prevents Stamina from standing in the same place damage-wise in group situations. The same with Brawler and other 2H area abilities. Either both stamina and magicka AEs should be blockable or neither should be. I lean towards both should be.

That's the only thing I disagree with. AOE dmg shouldn't be blockable, first, it's weid to block AOE spell, how can you block ring of fire? Second, and more important is that game should go in direction of removing block as primary form of dmg mitigation. We need to rely on other things like: more hp and dmg reduction via armor and spell resistance, and shields.

Jitterbug

Eglath wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

3. Stamina vs Magicka AEs -- There is no good reason that Steel Tornado is blockable while Impulse/Blockade aren't. This alone prevents Stamina from standing in the same place damage-wise in group situations. The same with Brawler and other 2H area abilities. Either both stamina and magicka AEs should be blockable or neither should be. I lean towards both should be.

That's the only thing I disagree with. AOE dmg shouldn't be blockable, first, it's weid to block AOE spell, how can you block ring of fire? Second, and more important is that game should go in direction of removing block as primary form of dmg mitigation. We need to rely on other things like: more hp and dmg reduction via armor and spell resistance, and shields.

Please, no more emphasis on damage shields... I think active blocking is a very cool way of doing it - the problem in my view rises form all the perma-block-casting.

KBKB

Every time I complained about block casting got told L2P nice to see so many agree

Eglath

Unfortunately right now, if you don't block or have 1k shield on you, you are dead in no time. Players shouldn't be able to kill each other in 3sec, we need more passive dmg mitigation.
Yes I agree with blocking being nice way, but it's only way atm. As a sorc I have 1 unblockable skill, curse, and very often it's only skill that's actually doing dmg against perma-blockers. So what you've said is correct, it is a problem. And therefore ZOS needs to adress it and give us more survivability outisde of block, especially for ppl without S&B.

Morvul

KBKB wrote: »

Every time I complained about block casting got told L2P nice to see so many agree

well, the way the game is set up at the moment: if you are not block casting most of the time while in PvP, you are doing it wrong.
Being the best, or rather, easiest way to play at the moment, does not make it any less stupid of a mechanic though

That said - if block casting were just straight up removed (for example, by making blocking like sprinting - no skills while using it), I'm somewhat worried that the PvP will become too fast (very high damage numbers relativ to hitpoints)

thodoris1008

I couldn't agree more with you OP,you certainly know what are you talking about.However,I would like to add something that I feel is missing from your post.That is the removal of shield stacking.I personally believe that effectively doubling your HP with damage shields in a game that has no cooldowns and pretty much no cost for doing so (thanks to the warlock/seducer combo) is just too much.From what I have noticed there are a lot of people that think this is ok,however from my perspective it's as bad as blockcasting for the overall game balance.

KBKB

Morvul wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

Every time I complained about block casting got told L2P nice to see so many agree

well, the way the game is set up at the moment: if you are not block casting most of the time while in PvP, you are doing it wrong.
Being the best, or rather, easiest way to play at the moment, does not make it any less stupid of a mechanic though

That said - if block casting were just straight up removed (for example, by making blocking like sprinting - no skills while using it), I'm somewhat worried that the PvP will become too fast (very high damage numbers relativ to hitpoints)

Regardless it's a stupid mechanic. Would it really be that hard to weave skills in between blocks? might require more thought.

Roechacca

Ya but what are Ya gonna play until 1.6 ? I have one of these Ill be back when write ups on every major MMO .

smee_z

Perhaps add a mechanic to blocking. Light and medium armored get drained of stamina when holding block up. If hit while blocking, added drain on stamina depending on applicable block cost. (existing mechanic).

Heavy armored (at least 5 pcs) don't get drained of stamina while holding block up, but still incurs applicable block cost when hit.

Some love for heavy armored there.

RinaldoGandolphi

Agree 100% @Agrippa_Invisus‌

Just to add further, Im a Sorc mind you, but the DragonKnight Reflective Scales nerf will turn this game from what it currently is which is "The Elder Bows Online Staring Dragonknights" to "The Elder Bows Online"

Bows and Snipe/Lethal Arrow is ridiculously OP now. infact, i scraped Bow on my Templar Alt due to how insanely easy it is to kill stuff and other players with.

The only "hard counter" to Lethal Arrow in this game is Reflective Scales and only the DragonKnight Class has access to it.

Prior to the Snipe buff, their used to be a lot more class diversity in this game, Today out of every 10 players your looking at 4 DK, 4 NB/Archers, 1 Sorc and 1 Templar out of 10 players.. I can fill a DK or NB 20 player kill contract very quickly, it often takes hours to fill the other two. Last night I killed 76 players, out of those 76, only 6 of them were Sorcs towards my contract...quite literally because very few play those classes.

Lets see Lethal Arrow:

1. Ignores armor
2. applies a healing debuff
3. has ridiculous range, outranging every other ability.
4. has ridiculous short cast time making it spammable
5. May be the highest damaging skill in the game.

I have been hit1.2-1.3k Lethal Arrows(even with Impentrable, which is why i don't run it all the time now), im forced to keep 100% uptime on Wards(that cost way way more then Lethal Arrow to use), im forced to run Radiant Magelight(56% stealth daamge reduction) which costs 2 skill bar slots and 5% of my max magicka to ensure I actually have a chance to blink away when getting hit by Lethal Arrow. With the way sound is bugged in this game and goes out, often times you can't even hear Lethal Arrow coming.

You could insert any class here, but as a Sorc, I wish i had a spammable skill that does that kinda damage with that kind of range. Of course they nerfed Sorcs into the ground, we have the worst stinking damage output in game. They nerfed Sharpened because it gave Sorcs a viable way to do damage, but its completely OK that Lethal Arrow ignores 100% of your armor rating.

Right now PVP is dominated by Bows and Dragonknights. For good reason, DK Scales is Lethal Arrows only counter, and Lethal Arrow is so spammable and does so much damage at such a range, its as close to an I-win-button this game has. Folks can say what they want about Dragonknights, but it takes alot more skill and resource management for a DK to solo 5-6 people then it does for an Archer to spam snipe. The DK is at risk of dying much more then a Lethal Arrow user is.

Lethal Arrow is = to Wrecking Blow with an instant cast time, probably worse because even if Wrecking Blow had an instant cast time, you would still have to get close to your opponent to use it and actually have a lot more risk involved in doing so.

If Sorcs could Spam Crystal Frags the way Archers spam Lethal Arrow, The uproar on the these forums would be deafening.

Everyone complains about Bolt Escape, i even posted a long thread on here as to why it needs to be unnerfed to some degree and tweaked, its because Sorcs damage flat out sucks...we are at the bottom of the darn food chain, if we didn't have BE, we would be flat out useless outside of Negate. To even use BE viably requires Warlock Magic Flood and lots of Tripots to maintain offense since your mana regen is penalized for using it. Combine that with the lowest DPS and pitiful damage, and this is what you have.

They have Cannibalized PVP into a Dragonknight and Archer dominated game. The upcoming nerf to Scales will be the last nail Lethal Arrow users need to spam their little arrows at range all day long, So i hope folks are ready for whats coming.

Lets be honest here, as a Sorc i don't have much to look forward to in 1.6, My damage is still going to suck, they said they are "buffing pets" Summons will still be useless in PVP, unable to stealth with them, the AI on them is dumber then a box of rocks, and i will be stuck holding the bag with an underpowered class. The entire Sorc class line needs revamped, Summons are ok for questing, but they will never be a staple due to AI issues.

The entire Daedric Summon line just needs shelved, save summons for Spell Crafting and replace the Daedric Summon Tree with something else, such as the Destruction Magic that has been the Staple of TES for years...not the staff...im talking spells like Fireball, Chain Lighting, Blizzard, etc...gives us Destruction Magic in place of the useless Daedric Summon Tree.

We have no:

Instant cast Direct Damage class skills
No class skills that apply DOT
No reliable self healing (crits are RNG based, not reliable, and Dark Conversion costs stamina and leaves you in a channel and is not viable to be used in combat)
More useless Class skills then any other class

A true Destruction Magic tree would solve these problems.

The lack of such a tree is the reason most Sorcs run destro staff or other weapon, and why weapon skills make up the majority of their bars, because our class skills stink.

Its the reason i started a Templar Alt, but to be completely honest, im not sure i can level him up. I really don't want to go through the grind of that again doing quests i have done before. it feels like a chore.

Besides, I like being a Sorc, being a caster is always the class i want to play, melee classes really don't interest me, I have always played a mage in TES because thats whats been most enjoyable for me, but with the pathetic damage and DPS im stuck with its getting harder to bother with it.

Most likely, if ZOS doesn't fix the Sorcs pathetic damage and DPS in 1.6 and actually give me a class that isn't at a disadvantage all the time forcing me to play out of my mind just to be on equal footing, then i'll most likely just unsub and delete the game from my drive.

The fact that ZOS said the Sorc "is just fine as is" and we are "going to buff summons and make them better" don't give me much hope at all. Summons in this game suck because of AI mostly. The only way summons are going to be viable if buffed is if:

1. The Clanffear has a ton of HP(6k+) and hits like a truck (1k-1.5k tail swipe, 650-700 regular attack damage) with a ton of armor making him viable tank and a real threat, and also has the same Charge Attack reg Clannfears have thats a knock down for around 600+ damage.

2. The Winged Twilight is given much more HP, Hits harder like the Clanffear above, and is given some sort of stun or fear type of special attack much like the Clanffear has Tail swipe and Charge.

However, we know if they do this, everyone will whine that pets are too strong because then the Clanffear and Twilight will become real threats and will be capable of killing any player in short order, which they should have from the get go so the class skill line isn't useless.

I have my doubts, Summons are hard to balance, either they will be OP as be or useless, there is no middle road with them. If they do buff summons to make them viable, i'll have maybe 2-3 weeks use out of them before ZOS nerfs them back uselessness anyways, but the Lethal Arrow spam will continue.

thats what Sorcs have to look forward to from what has been released so far..color me unimpressed.

This game has serious balance issues, i apologize for my Sorc rant, but the same can be said for light armor, sword and board, etc. They really need to do a better job with class balance to diversfy pvp a bit more among classes.

Roechacca

OMG if bows were so OP you'd see everyone spamming bows into keeps an taking flags . Well you don't . You see the same DK / Temp / Sorc Gowns on Crown winning every keep assault .

KBKB

roechacca wrote: »

OMG if bows were so OP you'd see everyone spamming bows into keeps an taking flags . Well you don't . You see the same DK / Temp / Sorc Gowns on Crown winning every keep assault .

If you are saying Bows are balanced you've clearly had a head knock and should go to the doctor.

Roechacca

KBKB wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

OMG if bows were so OP you'd see everyone spamming bows into keeps an taking flags . Well you don't . You see the same DK / Temp / Sorc Gowns on Crown winning every keep assault .

If you are saying Bows are balanced you've clearly had a head knock and should go to the doctor.

I look at it like this . Out of all the concerns between balance this issue effects the outcome of a battle how many times ? Not 1vs1 ... A battle .

rendolpheb16_ESO

About your siege weapon statement, I find them already strong enough. Player combat should be the turning point and not the Siege Weapon.

Meatbag cata doesn't hurt, but will wipe your group.

BTW I find that stupid that the debuff healing on meatbag cata cannot be cleansed.

The fire dot from Fire Ballista can be cleansed ...

KBKB

roechacca wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

OMG if bows were so OP you'd see everyone spamming bows into keeps an taking flags . Well you don't . You see the same DK / Temp / Sorc Gowns on Crown winning every keep assault .

If you are saying Bows are balanced you've clearly had a head knock and should go to the doctor.

I look at it like this . Out of all the concerns between balance this issue effects the outcome of a battle how many times ? Not 1vs1 ... A battle .

No but 10 guys all chilling on the edge of a keep spamming snipe like its going out of fashion is a balance issue imo. Getting two shot by by someone 4 Vranks below you when wearing full gold impen riding back to your group/sieged keep is also a balance issue.

Don't stick up for snipe It is the hardest hitting, shortest cast time, longest range healing debuff out there and it's very cheap to use which makes it spammable and is anything but balanced at the moment.

KBKB

rendolpheb16_ESO wrote: »

About your siege weapon statement, I find them already strong enough. Player combat should be the turning point and not the Siege Weapon.

Meatbag cata doesn't hurt, but will wipe your group.

BTW I find that stupid that the debuff healing on meatbag cata cannot be cleansed.

The fire dot from Fire Ballista can be cleansed ...

I think it can be? just your heal from purge is effected by the debuff. not 100% on that I am almost certain my heals improve after purging/purifying after a meat bag hits a group.

Roselle

KBKB wrote: »

rendolpheb16_ESO wrote: »

About your siege weapon statement, I find them already strong enough. Player combat should be the turning point and not the Siege Weapon.

Meatbag cata doesn't hurt, but will wipe your group.

BTW I find that stupid that the debuff healing on meatbag cata cannot be cleansed.

The fire dot from Fire Ballista can be cleansed ...

I think it can be? just your heal from purge is effected by the debuff. not 100% on that I am almost my heals improve after purging/purifying after a meat bag hits a group.

The meatbag can be purged/cleansed/purified

It cannot be removed via Dark Cloak.

Reverb

woodsro wrote: »

If Sorcs could Spam Crystal Frags the way Archers spam Lethal Arrow, The uproar on the these forums would be deafening.

I very much would like both Crystal Fragments and Dark Flare to be given the same range and cast time as Lethal Arrow, and watch the forums explode. But the comparison isn't really fair since both are class skills, and anybody can equip a bow.

And @roechacca‌ it's becoming common for people to solo resources using bows, and there have been a few to take keeps with tank/archer duos. I don't know any that have done it with only archers because you get overwhelmed when you pull guards, but I don't doubt that a strong dk could do it. If snipe had been buffed like this before DK nerfs and buffing NPCs to V5 we would have seen daily videos of soloing keeps with a bow (+talons+flame lash ofc).

Roechacca

KBKB wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

OMG if bows were so OP you'd see everyone spamming bows into keeps an taking flags . Well you don't . You see the same DK / Temp / Sorc Gowns on Crown winning every keep assault .

If you are saying Bows are balanced you've clearly had a head knock and should go to the doctor.

I look at it like this . Out of all the concerns between balance this issue effects the outcome of a battle how many times ? Not 1vs1 ... A battle .

No but 10 guys all chilling on the edge of a keep spamming snipe like its going out of fashion is a balance issue imo. Getting two shot by by someone 4 Vranks below you when wearing full gold impen riding back to your group/sieged keep is also a balance issue.

Don't stick up for snipe It is the hardest hitting, shortest cast time, longest range healing debuff out there and it's very cheap to use which makes it spammable and is anything but balanced at the moment.

Clearly you've never been trapped by a group of DK's at the front of a pulse group stun locked . Or ever watched a sniper one shot himself from sniping at said DK group with reflect up . Also the change to DK reflect is not going to be that big of a change to stop making them the bane of bow users .

KBKB

roechacca wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

OMG if bows were so OP you'd see everyone spamming bows into keeps an taking flags . Well you don't . You see the same DK / Temp / Sorc Gowns on Crown winning every keep assault .

If you are saying Bows are balanced you've clearly had a head knock and should go to the doctor.

I look at it like this . Out of all the concerns between balance this issue effects the outcome of a battle how many times ? Not 1vs1 ... A battle .

No but 10 guys all chilling on the edge of a keep spamming snipe like its going out of fashion is a balance issue imo. Getting two shot by by someone 4 Vranks below you when wearing full gold impen riding back to your group/sieged keep is also a balance issue.

Don't stick up for snipe It is the hardest hitting, shortest cast time, longest range healing debuff out there and it's very cheap to use which makes it spammable and is anything but balanced at the moment.

Clearly you've never been trapped by a group of DK's at the front of a pulse group stun locked . Or ever watched a sniper one shot himself from sniping at said DK group with reflect up . Also the change to DK reflect is not going to be that big of a change to stop making them the bane of bow users .

Any sniper that kills himself off scales is stupid for one.

I like to dodge roll and roll immoveable but yes it does happen to all of us at times I think. Not sure what that has to do with my comment about snipe being ridic over the top?

PS @roechacca‌ you use a bow I'm guessing?

Lord_Draevan

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

2. Blockcasting -- This, combined with the LA sustainability/durability balance issues, is what leads to the 'Ubertank DK' that is so universally loathed. ZOS, you're smart, figure out a way around this mechanic.
5. Block Cost in LA -- Take the block cost reduction from the 1h/Shield line and stack it into the HA line so that HA + Shield = 1.5 block cost, while LA + Shield = terrible blocking. This has impact on both points 1 and 2.

Just these two would have a huge impact on PvP. If it were up to me, ZOS would focus on these two first.
And of course, you should NOT be able to use Immovable while wearing 0 pieces of Heavy Armor. 4-5 pieces required to use would be best. This would also reduce the amount of "Ubertank DKs".