What is considered acceptable DPS for each class?

TehMagnus

Aeratus wrote: »

So many videos, and yet you fail to show even one.

But just to be clear, the only videos with 2k dps that i've seen are videos where people use axes or adds to inflate dps on the last AA boss for an extended period, but those don't count, because that is AOE dps, not sustained single target.

Here's an example that i found in a quick search.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z35Vvre_L3Q

As shown above, the DK had around 1k dps when there was one target on the screen. Then, the axes boosted his dps to 2k. But the 2k isn't single target dps.

Of course, if you say 2k AA, without regards to whether that is AOE or single target, that is not an incorrect statement. But if you say 2k single target, that's not a correct statement.

That's indeed AOE DPS I do with the axes, but as Horathor thingy said, it's mostly for the multidoting, this allows me to put down banner after banner (sometimes I even manage to have 2 up at the same time). With our tactic we do kill the boss faster than single target dpsing it (about 20/30s less) because of permanent ultimates from at least 4 members of the party. (up to 6 with new strategy)

Without multidoting the axes I still have around 1400-1600 sustained DPS on the fight depending how I manage the bumping part (and ofc warhorn, combat prayer, elemental drain, etc etc etc). It also helps when the DPS is high enough so that no add spawns and you don't loose DPS while killing it.

Then again, I don't think we should use AA for comparison, the "op builds" many people use there don't apply to other instances.

Govalon

Still not one video posted showing someone, anyone doing 2k sustained single target DPS. Only one video posted showing dk doing 2k AoE and one video showing burst damage for a few seconds. So far we only have peole saying it can be done but no proof. Don't get me wrong, I can pull nearly 2k DPS on AA last boss but that is not single target. Show me one video and that is proof enough for me.

kingzokyeb17_ESO

i used to be an dd like you then took a sense in the head and became a tank

TehMagnus

kingzokyeb17_ESO wrote: »

i used to be an dd like you then took a sense in the head and became a tank

You can tank & DD at the same time, just need to switch gear 8)

kingzokyeb17_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

kingzokyeb17_ESO wrote: »

i used to be an dd like you then took a sense in the head and became a tank

You can tank & DD at the same time, just need to switch gear 8)

Yea i know I use light armor+staff for general questing and i can solo craglorn dolmens in it, but I'm just to lazy to use animation canceling for "top end" dps. When i play vet dungeons I just switch to heavy armor and play as a tank

Varicite

Qhival wrote: »

this is all i have at the moment, but i'll find more.
https://i.imgur.com/J92M812.png

admits it's unintended

This part is true, and directly from the quote. A lot of people get hung up on the word "unintended", which seems to really mean "unforeseen" or "unexpected" in the context of the quote.

Qhival wrote: »

which is admiring it's a flaw

This is something you just made up on the spot. There's nothing anywhere that says that it's even remotely a flaw, and a few choice words from the devs that say that the mechanics are exactly as they intended.

Qhival wrote: »

something they didn't expect.

This is literally all the statement you quoted means. They didn't expect animation cancelling to be so popular, but as it doesn't hurt anything, it's not an exploit.

It's not a flaw. It's the way the mechanics were created to work, and players have used these mechanics to max out their dps. Not go above intended dps, because you can't, just help to max out potential dps.

They aren't planning to fix it currently. It's not broken. They are changing Haste to be more attractive w/ animation cancelling, so they are obviously embracing it.

They may change their minds in the future, that's been known to happen, but for now.. it's here to stay for the foreseeable future.

Qhival

Varicite wrote: »

and a few choice words from the devs that say that the mechanics are exactly as they intended.....

They didn't expect animation cancelling to be so popular, but as it doesn't hurt anything, it's not an exploit.

It's not a flaw. It's the way the mechanics were created to work, and players have used these mechanics to max out their dps. Not go above intended dps, because you can't, just help to max out potential dps.

Please show me those "few choice words" that devs say it's exactly as intended LOL. amazes me that you say i pulled words out of my ass and then you say that.

You really think they purposely created the mechanics to work in a way that you can skip them? They aren't cinematics, man. Animations have a purpose, otherwise why would they bother having animations at all? Why not just have everything work instantly without any animations? Why not have an option to disable animations and animation time? Why do they have tips and tricks documented for every aspect of the game except animation canceling?

animation canceling makes pvp unbelievable boring, because you can't react to anything because you dont see the animation and you can't identify what your enemy is doing unless they are oblivious to animation canceling.

The ONLY argument for animation canceling that isnt asinine is that it lets you stop what you are doing and react to what you may see coming... except that argument doesnt stand because you don't see what's coming because everyone is spamming animation canceling.

Here's what they need to do:
1. Remove animation canceling.
2. add a cancel cast hotkey so you can basically do what animation canceling does, but make it have a stamina or mana cost. (perhaps depending on the ability)

or they could just keep bash as an animation cancel, or make block have an activation cost and let it be the cancel as well.

The point is, there needs to a cost for animation canceling. It needs to be something intuitive that makes it feel like it should be part of the game. It's so extremely obvious that it wasn't unintended.

Erock25

PVE would be dreadfully dull if there was no animation cancelling. I mean, light attack weaving my crushing shock spam is bad enough, but if I didn't even have to worry about any timing mechanism and literally just sat there pressing 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 over and over? No thanks.

Qhival

Erock25 wrote: »

PVE would be dreadfully dull if there was no animation cancelling. I mean, light attack weaving my crushing shock spam is bad enough, but if I didn't even have to worry about any timing mechanism and literally just sat there pressing 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 over and over? No thanks.

your argument shouldn't be for animation canceling. it should be for making pve more engaging. This is the opinion that confuses the hell out of me. People look at things completely back asswords. And i've got some bad news for you. Once you hit endgame, you literally have 3 things to do. animation canceling isnt going to make doing the same thing over and over any more interesting.

Erock25

Qhival wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

PVE would be dreadfully dull if there was no animation cancelling. I mean, light attack weaving my crushing shock spam is bad enough, but if I didn't even have to worry about any timing mechanism and literally just sat there pressing 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 over and over? No thanks.

your argument shouldn't be for animation canceling. it should be for making pve more engaging. This is the opinion that confuses the hell out of me. People look at things completely back asswords. And i've got some bad news for you. Once you hit endgame, you literally have 3 things to do. animation canceling isnt going to make doing the same thing over and over any more interesting.

Who are you to tell me what my argument should be for? Animation canceling is the only timing based function in the combat system and therefore it should stay. Once I hit endgame? I believe I've been at endgame for a while and I do think animation canceling makes it much more engaging.

Qhival

Erock25 wrote: »

Qhival wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

PVE would be dreadfully dull if there was no animation cancelling. I mean, light attack weaving my crushing shock spam is bad enough, but if I didn't even have to worry about any timing mechanism and literally just sat there pressing 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 over and over? No thanks.

your argument shouldn't be for animation canceling. it should be for making pve more engaging. This is the opinion that confuses the hell out of me. People look at things completely back asswords. And i've got some bad news for you. Once you hit endgame, you literally have 3 things to do. animation canceling isnt going to make doing the same thing over and over any more interesting.

Who are you to tell me what my argument should be for? Animation canceling is the only timing based function in the combat system and therefore it should stay. Once I hit endgame? I believe I've been at endgame for a while and I do think animation canceling makes it much more engaging.

Who am I? The one who has looked through all the ingame documentation and has not found a single word in reference to animation canceling. I'm also apparently the one who can't be as easily entertained by spamming animation canceling on the same content every day. I can see that it's a problem and that PVE is not an important argument. It PVE. It's ridiculously easy with canceling and would be ridiculously easy without animation canceling.

Varicite

Qhival wrote: »

Please show me those "few choice words" that devs say it's exactly as intended LOL. amazes me that you say i pulled words out of my ass and then you say that.

From this past Guild Summit:

"Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future."

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

It's really very rare that I talk about things I can't confirm in some form, and if it's just my opinion I try to be careful to say so.

Not much point in arguing w/ the rest of your post, as it's exactly as I've tried to tell you before. It is intended to work this way and it isn't a real issue because of the internal cooldown on all attacks already effectively limiting your dps potential.

They made it this way because they wanted combat to feel dynamic and didn't want you to be stuck in an animation when you needed to be firing off a specific ability, and blocking is life or death in so many instances that it needed to take priority over everything.

I know that you disagree, but that's the way it is for now. I wasn't trying to be mean about it or anything, and I apologize if I came across that way.

Aeratus

To reiterate what others have said:

Animation cancelling is absolutely intended by the developers, as shown in the above quote. The key phrase is "the way that attacks currently interact is intended" quoted above and as also hinted by the phrase "the prioritization system and the way that blocking interacts with ability usage." (http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/)

The quote from Jessica Folsom does not say that animation cancelling was unintended. It only says that the importance of animation cancelling was not originally intended. Unfortunately, the way it was written has caused people to misinterpret it.

But having realized the importance of animation cancelling to endgame dps, the developers have embraced this. The evidence is that the medium armor's attack speed buff was changed to a weapon damage buff, since attack speed was useless to animation cancelling.

Qhival

Varicite wrote: »

They made it this way because they wanted combat to feel dynamic and didn't want you to be stuck in an animation when you needed to be firing off a specific ability, and blocking is life or death in so many instances that it needed to take priority over everything..

If you opponent is good enough, they will completely avoid the cast animation or heavy attack animation. At that point, you are seeing the animations and particles of the move after it is done, which means you won't see what you need to block until they have already done it. That's my entire point. Yes, blocking is important, but not if someone is animation canceling. Lets not even get into how bash is completely useless thanks to animation canceling...

Varicite

Qhival wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

They made it this way because they wanted combat to feel dynamic and didn't want you to be stuck in an animation when you needed to be firing off a specific ability, and blocking is life or death in so many instances that it needed to take priority over everything..

If you opponent is good enough, they will completely avoid the cast animation or heavy attack animation. At that point, you are seeing the animations and particles of the move after it is done, which means you won't see what you need to block until they have already done it. That's my entire point. Yes, blocking is important, but not if someone is animation canceling. Lets not even get into how bash is completely useless thanks to animation canceling...

You can't bash anything that can be animation cancelled.

You can't cancel a channel, so bash still works.

Also, if you are using animation cancelling heavily in PvP, you are leaving yourself open to CC, which will get you killed more often than not.

/shrug

AssaultLemming

Look at it like this, without light attack weaving the majority of people would never use light attack at all unless they were completely oom.

Personally I think they should have implemented cast timers for everything and if you cancel the cast because you have to block or dodge then the spell doesn't go off. They also should have done a much better job of making the animations and the cast times the same.

But it's a very tricky problem now that you have so many instant cast spells and tanks and everyone so heavily reliant on block casting for survivability.

You can't just remove animation canceling because the game would be so unresponsive we would all need new keyboards in days because of smashing them when our characters failed to block or dodge.

With no cast timers you can't really make it so that canceling reduces or entirely negates the effect of the spell that is cancelled because it's too imprecise, you would forever be canceling spells too early or waiting too long and the macro problem would be even worse with macro users having perfect timing.

That said I do think that canceling the cast time of a spell with a block in pvp really makes interrupting harder, but I don't see an easy solution. It's just bad design that we are stuck with.

Varicite

AssaultLemming wrote: »

That said I do think that canceling the cast time of a spell with a block in pvp really makes interrupting harder, but I don't see an easy solution. It's just bad design that we are stuck with.

If you cancel anything w/ a cast time w/ block, it will just cancel the channel and nothing happens.

Animation cancelling literally has 0 effect on interrupts.

It only works w/ instant cast abilities, which is why heavy attacks and channeled abilities were shunned for DPS for so long (since blocking will just cancel out of both of these entirely).

You can technically "clip" the animation for heavy attacks and channeled abilities, but you need to let the majority of the animation play through if you actually want to fire the channeled ability instead of just blocking and doing no damage. You can clip heavy attacks earlier, but you'll only receive partial heavy attack damage.

TehMagnus

When did this become about animation canceling?

#1: everybody can cancel animations, all you have to do is use a skill just after an attack and then use block (right click) to cancel the skill animation. It ain't sorcery, it ain't cheating (unless you macro), it's a game mechanic that anyone can implement. We only have 5 skills to push, if you cant push them just after a left click and if you cant right click just after pushing the skill button, then you can't pretend to ever be good at any game that requires you to quickly push keys, animation or no animation canceling (aka your dps will always suck anyways).

#2: I think it was Gina Bruno who said in the forums animation canceling wasn't planed or intended but it's not cheating when done manually like most good DPSers out there (animation lag and server lag during PVE combat makes most attack macros unreliable anyways).

#3: Animation canceling doesn't automatically give max DPS (the dps increase isn't more than ~100 -150 dps which, at high amounts, is marginal), it depends on the skills(not all skills can be canceled the same way and some skills, even after being canceled, don't allow you to auto attack right away) and the type of attack made (Light attack or medium attack). I used to LA & cancel the crushing shock animation and now do more damage with medium attacks without animation canceling (only thing I cancel is spell symmetry since the animation is so long) so animation canceling isn't a guarantee for good DPS and most people pulling insane DPS will tell you they aren't canceling.

Conclusion: Stop talking about animation canceling when talking about high DPS in PVE (I do think it makes stuff unfair in PVP if you can somehow make it work with the lag). Most people who QQ about animation canceling and DPS don't even know what they are talking about and proly blame their shortcomings on others people's supposed "abuse" of a mechanic.

Hortator Mopa

magnusnet wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

So many videos, and yet you fail to show even one.

But just to be clear, the only videos with 2k dps that i've seen are videos where people use axes or adds to inflate dps on the last AA boss for an extended period, but those don't count, because that is AOE dps, not sustained single target.

Here's an example that i found in a quick search.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z35Vvre_L3Q

As shown above, the DK had around 1k dps when there was one target on the screen. Then, the axes boosted his dps to 2k. But the 2k isn't single target dps.

Of course, if you say 2k AA, without regards to whether that is AOE or single target, that is not an incorrect statement. But if you say 2k single target, that's not a correct statement.

That's indeed AOE DPS I do with the axes, but as Horathor thingy said, it's mostly for the multidoting, this allows me to put down banner after banner (sometimes I even manage to have 2 up at the same time). With our tactic we do kill the boss faster than single target dpsing it (about 20/30s less) because of permanent ultimates from at least 4 members of the party. (up to 6 with new strategy)

Without multidoting the axes I still have around 1400-1600 sustained DPS on the fight depending how I manage the bumping part (and ofc warhorn, combat prayer, elemental drain, etc etc etc). It also helps when the DPS is high enough so that no add spawns and you don't loose DPS while killing it.

Then again, I don't think we should use AA for comparison, the "op builds" many people use there don't apply to other instances.

How do people not understand this.... I have veil up almost 100% of the time..