Werewolf 1.5.1 Changes Review.

Oronell

starkerealm wrote: »

Maou wrote: »

I'm not a big fan of the whole idea of a meter that decreases by hits.

I think he was actually talking about a meter that refreshed whenever you hit or were hit. I'd certainly be in favor of one that refreshed by a second or so with every successful attack. I'm not sure if receiving damage would be a good refresh, though, since that could create situations where you're not actually fighting anyone, but DoTs keep your transform going. It would also make crowd control a lot more serious for werewolves (kind of like how it is now, with the no break free bug).

I have always been in favor of this kind of rage meter and it would make sense for crowd control to be a problem for Werewolves. Wouldn't a Werewolf hunter use traps to get the upper hand over his/her prey?

nicedragon

Maou wrote: »

nicedragon wrote: »

[...] Every hit (from enemy or to enemy) increase it and every second decrease. [...]

I'm not a big fan of the whole idea of a meter that decreases by hits. I can see the advantages of it, such as more pvp viability and rp scenarios, but at the same time one of the great things about the current system is how you can potentially stay a werewolf for as long as you like so long as you keep feeding. I don't really mind at all what the werewolf currently is in pts but then again I'm a strict PVE player that's happy just being a werewolf and not paying too much attention to dps increase. I think what the devs really need is to just somehow find that sweet spot between better damage than in human form, with a decent timer so then one can stay wolfed out for an acceptable time in pvp (that, or somehow make it so player bodies will still linger around for a little while after they respawn) But the problem with that is that in human form, we have access to a plethora of abilities that increase our damage resistance, damage output, weapon speed, etc. which results in a large increase in potential DPS. Werewolves, however, rely on the buffs that come from the transformation and little else. If we were to be given some kind of buff that gave us more damage than we do in a funded human form, I think the only result would be an overpowered wolf with a ten-second timer and many a gamer complaining about how op they are, eventually leading to a crippling series/immediate nerf which could make the werewolf worse than it is currently (and despite all these reasonable complaints, I think we can all agree the current werewolf isn't all that bad, and a MUCH better improvement than what we had at launch.)

Emmm... My idea was not meter that decrease by hits. It is standard timer, just regenerating it would work similar as ultimate (by dealing or taking damage). That means:
- If you fight you gain time (to maximum, no "overload" or things like that)
- If you watching TV you lose time (Timer always counts)

Also my imagination about Werewolf strength is that it should not be connected to human form in any way except skill lines XP. Items from human form you currently wear should have not any impact how strong your wolf part is. Only your experience in skill lines. Example:
1. If you are V14 and have maxed all stamina skill lines you have maximum possible damage output.
2. If you are V14 and have maxed all armor skill lines you have maximum possible armor value.
By maximum skill line I mean experience in particular skill line, not amount of skill points.

And I don't think that would be unfair because:
- Poison debuff
- People who get good items can use it all the time, enchant and do other customizations.
- Limit to close range attacks as Werewolf.

Why not items?
1. Werewolf not wear clothes nor weapons.
2. Werewolf is other part of the same character so should share combat experience and utilise it better than human part.

About buffs I think since human and wolf is the part of the same person (character) it should share buffs and debuffs all the time (except armor and damage)

Sorry if my English was so bad.

sean.plackerb14_ESO

I have PTS installed, but haven't tried this enough to know for sure. Was wondering if the WW transform its self is more reliable in 1.5. I'm so sick and tired of glitching out most of the time when I transform on live. Getting stuck in some weird in-between state, and getting cheated out of my ult. Also having to relogg because I'm stuck in a slow moving state.

Darkstar101

The change to 30 seconds is a terrible move. It would be no different than a sorcerer having to charge up an ultimate just to be able to cast any of their spells for 30 seconds. But during that 30 seconds of spell casting they do not get to keep any ultimate they generate and have to start all over again for 30 seconds of being a sorcerer.

Werewolf should not be treated as an Ultimate. It should be a skill line like any other. Only having access to a skill line you have a large number of points invested in for 30 seconds is not enjoyable. Many people want to play as a werewolf when and were they see fit. Not in a sporadic hit and miss play style. It just isn't fun, and that's the whole point of playing a game. Make it a toggle so people can switch in and out when they choose. In werewolf form they are sacrificing all of their class and weapon abilities. Give it an actual ultimate ability. Something that actually is deserving of the name ultimate. Currently were wolves have no bite or execute attack. Perhaps turn Devour into an execute type attack Ultimate.

As it stands at then end of the day werewolf just isn't fun or competitive. High cost, prohibitive penalties, short duration and loss of class skills are just too many negatives for what you get from it.

Darkonflare15

Darkstar101 wrote: »

The change to 30 seconds is a terrible move. It would be no different than a sorcerer having to charge up an ultimate just to be able to cast any of their spells for 30 seconds. But during that 30 seconds of spell casting they do not get to keep any ultimate they generate and have to start all over again for 30 seconds of being a sorcerer.

Werewolf should not be treated as an Ultimate. It should be a skill line like any other. Only having access to a skill line you have a large number of points invested in for 30 seconds is not enjoyable. Many people want to play as a werewolf when and were they see fit. Not in a sporadic hit and miss play style. It just isn't fun, and that's the whole point of playing a game. Make it a toggle so people can switch in and out when they choose. In werewolf form they are sacrificing all of their class and weapon abilities. Give it an actual ultimate ability. Something that actually is deserving of the name ultimate. Currently were wolves have no bite or execute attack. Perhaps turn Devour into an execute type attack Ultimate.

As it stands at then end of the day werewolf just isn't fun or competitive. High cost, prohibitive penalties, short duration and loss of class skills are just too many negatives for what you get from it.

I would love an execute attack.

risen1981

Darkstar101 wrote: »

The change to 30 seconds is a terrible move. It would be no different than a sorcerer having to charge up an ultimate just to be able to cast any of their spells for 30 seconds. But during that 30 seconds of spell casting they do not get to keep any ultimate they generate and have to start all over again for 30 seconds of being a sorcerer.

Werewolf should not be treated as an Ultimate. It should be a skill line like any other. Only having access to a skill line you have a large number of points invested in for 30 seconds is not enjoyable. Many people want to play as a werewolf when and were they see fit. Not in a sporadic hit and miss play style. It just isn't fun, and that's the whole point of playing a game. Make it a toggle so people can switch in and out when they choose. In werewolf form they are sacrificing all of their class and weapon abilities. Give it an actual ultimate ability. Something that actually is deserving of the name ultimate. Currently were wolves have no bite or execute attack. Perhaps turn Devour into an execute type attack Ultimate.

As it stands at then end of the day werewolf just isn't fun or competitive. High cost, prohibitive penalties, short duration and loss of class skills are just too many negatives for what you get from it.

this +10

Chrlynsch

ZOS thank you for the time and effort that has been put into werewolf lately. Here are some opinions of both myself and my pack (about 20 of us).

Werewolf should be an alternative play syle that uses an ultimate slot and should stop being considered and compared to a ultimate ability.

ZOS you have too much time and passion into werewolf, and we have invested as many skill points into this ability as we did a class tree, I feel that werewolf is closer to where it needs to be. Though with some altering it can be really fun!



Pros:
-Faster and more mobile
-Unique and deadly set of skills
-Third skillbar (this is huge)
-Stam regen in both forms
-Great resource management
-Bleed ticks are great in pvp
-Future justice system consequences
-Werewolf


Cons:
-Weak to poison in all forms (pretty much archers)
-Weak to fighters skill line of abilities only in wolf form (Everyone has access to these abilities)
-Vulnerable to damage and situational mechanics when changing forms (when trying to switch bars)
-Strictly melee (howl has a slight range)
-Bleed doesn't work on all enemies
-Can't mount (scare ponies)
-Future justice system consequences
-Can't taunt
-form removed on death/phasing
-high cost to build up rage
- No ultimate ability in form

I really can't see werewolf becoming op skill line in pvp due to the amount of stam archers and Fighter's Guild skill lines to keep them in check.

Here are the things that need to be added if this were to come to fruition:

-remove the timer
-alter the pounce animation. The current pounce seems to focus it's energy on jumping for height(leaping), instead of focusing it's energy toward an enemy. Overall the animation takes too long and lacks "powerful" feeling
-allow sneak and abilities able to deal sneak damage
-pack leader: 10% damage mitigation for self and nearby werewolves(non-stacking)
- call of the pack now reduces sprint cost by 10% up to 40% and increase speed by 5% up to 20%
-feral pounce now becomes a taunt 15s
-devour heals and increases stam and health recover by 50% for 30 sec

The skills and damage are right where they need to be.

Paul Sage said something in eso live show when refering to gameplay (pickpocketing) along the lines of fun for some vs fun of many. This stck in my head when writing this along with the opinions of my pack. Werewolf, if moved this direction could help achieve this. Not only would it be fun to be one but also fun to fight them!

Thanks for everything and keep up the solid work!

ryu40010b14_ESO

Prothwata wrote: »

ZOS thank you for the time and effort that has been put into werewolf lately. Here are some opinions of both myself and my pack (about 20 of us).

Werewolf should be an alternative play syle that uses an ultimate slot and should stop being considered and compared to a ultimate ability.

ZOS you have too much time and passion into werewolf, and we have invested as many skill points into this ability as we did a class tree, I feel that werewolf is closer to where it needs to be. Though with some altering it can be really fun!



Pros:
-Faster and more mobile
-Unique and deadly set of skills
-Third skillbar (this is huge)
-Stam regen in both forms
-Great resource management
-Bleed ticks are great in pvp
-Future justice system consequences
-Werewolf


Cons:
-Weak to poison in all forms (pretty much archers)
-Weak to fighters skill line of abilities only in wolf form (Everyone has access to these abilities)
-Vulnerable to damage and situational mechanics when changing forms (when trying to switch bars)
-Strictly melee (howl has a slight range)
-Bleed doesn't work on all enemies
-Can't mount (scare ponies)
-Future justice system consequences
-Can't taunt
-form removed on death/phasing
-high cost to build up rage
- No ultimate ability in form

I really can't see werewolf becoming op skill line in pvp due to the amount of stam archers and Fighter's Guild skill lines to keep them in check.

Here are the things that need to be added if this were to come to fruition:

-remove the timer
-alter the pounce animation. The current pounce seems to focus it's energy on jumping for height(leaping), instead of focusing it's energy toward an enemy. Overall the animation takes too long and lacks "powerful" feeling
-allow sneak and abilities able to deal sneak damage
-pack leader: 10% damage mitigation for self and nearby werewolves(non-stacking)
- call of the pack now reduces sprint cost by 10% up to 40% and increase speed by 5% up to 20%
-feral pounce now becomes a taunt 15s
-devour heals and increases stam and health recover by 50% for 30 sec

The skills and damage are right where they need to be.

Thanks for everything and

i like where this is going.

Maou

Actually, I've always retained my wolf form when I've respawned after dying mid-transformation, though I'm a PVE player so respawns are quick and I can't really speak for how it goes in PVP. And I don't think a lack of mount availability is necessarily a con for us wolves. I doubt I'd be able to stop laughing if I saw a werewolf riding a horse. I much prefer us being our own mounts, and sprinting on all fours. (Though that's sort of inefficient when you have a 30 second timer and have to constantly feed on killed enemies to be able to maintain form for a decent amount of time.)

ryu40010b14_ESO

lol true, there are videos of WW riding a horse due to a bug and it made me almost spit tea all over my screen laughing.

Chrlynsch

These pros and cons are not necessarily things that are but things that should be... not being able to mount up means traveling from place to place at fast pace will consume your one resource you use to fight (a con for sure) though we also will not be able to be dismounted (a pro). As of right now when you die in form you can come back as a wolf, I suggest having to rebuild rage to gain form (ultimate). The biggest reason I suggest reverting form from death and quick travel is to help with accidental justice system convictions in the future.

Neutronium_Dragon

My feeling since the outset is that the werewolf form and attacks largely look and work like a weapon skill line (except that you're stuck with a buff timer to use it), right down to the point of requiring a similar skill point investment to make it work;

Why not have the thing function as a weapon toggle instead of as an ultimate? Whether there's a virtual 'item' to slot or it simply takes up your toggle slot by default (and if the developers are looking for an appropriate 'downside', that's one right there), it would actually GIVE people the toggle that's in such demand, and since it would be making use of an existing toggle mechanism, I can't see any reason for there to be 'technical limitations' with it.

Yes, I get the fact that design is currently fixated on the 'timed buff' approach, probably because that's how Skyrim did it, but it was a bad model there too. It certainly isn't in keeping with how any other werewolf (every non-PC one) works in either this game or the rest of the series, either.

Cously

Neutronium_Dragon wrote: »

My feeling since the outset is that the werewolf form and attacks largely look and work like a weapon skill line (except that you're stuck with a buff timer to use it), right down to the point of requiring a similar skill point investment to make it work;

Why not have the thing function as a weapon toggle instead of as an ultimate? Whether there's a virtual 'item' to slot or it simply takes up your toggle slot by default (and if the developers are looking for an appropriate 'downside', that's one right there), it would actually GIVE people the toggle that's in such demand, and since it would be making use of an existing toggle mechanism, I can't see any reason for there to be 'technical limitations' with it.

Yes, I get the fact that design is currently fixated on the 'timed buff' approach, probably because that's how Skyrim did it, but it was a bad model there too. It certainly isn't in keeping with how any other werewolf (every non-PC one) works in either this game or the rest of the series, either.

This. To be indefinately in wolf form would be the user's choice, having its own drawbacks as per the justice system guard hostility towards wolf (to prevent abuses) and the clear disvantage one have as wolf in the battlefield. Giving choices is the way to go and this would satisfy both parties.

Maou

Joolio wrote: »

Neutronium_Dragon wrote: »

My feeling since the outset is that the werewolf form and attacks largely look and work like a weapon skill line (except that you're stuck with a buff timer to use it), right down to the point of requiring a similar skill point investment to make it work;

Why not have the thing function as a weapon toggle instead of as an ultimate? Whether there's a virtual 'item' to slot or it simply takes up your toggle slot by default (and if the developers are looking for an appropriate 'downside', that's one right there), it would actually GIVE people the toggle that's in such demand, and since it would be making use of an existing toggle mechanism, I can't see any reason for there to be 'technical limitations' with it.

Yes, I get the fact that design is currently fixated on the 'timed buff' approach, probably because that's how Skyrim did it, but it was a bad model there too. It certainly isn't in keeping with how any other werewolf (every non-PC one) works in either this game or the rest of the series, either.

This. To be indefinately in wolf form would be the user's choice, having its own drawbacks as per the justice system guard hostility towards wolf (to prevent abuses) and the clear disvantage one have as wolf in the battlefield. Giving choices is the way to go and this would satisfy both parties.

I'm in favor of this too. It might also solve the whole balancing issue that comes with treating it as an ultimate that should drastically increase damage instead of a different style as a weapon swap.

Orchish

I can't see this working in PvP at all. 30 seconds is just going to get you killed as you transform back to Orc/Human form in the middle of combat.

risen1981

22 skillpoints for fully skilled and 400 ultimate cost for a 30 sec buff...
They need to make it a toggle, it's a must

Ragefist

With the solid selfheal I just can't get out of my mind the idea of "Turn into DK for 30sec" ultimate

Thejollygreenone

Ragefist wrote: »

With the solid selfheal I just can't get out of my mind the idea of "Turn into DK for 30sec" ultimate

AHAHAHAH!!! YES!!! I didn't want to say anything but I felt the same way :P

With any luck it'll actually turn out that way

Hypertionb14_ESO

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Ragefist wrote: »

With the solid selfheal I just can't get out of my mind the idea of "Turn into DK for 30sec" ultimate

AHAHAHAH!!! YES!!! I didn't want to say anything but I felt the same way :P

With any luck it'll actually turn out that way

ya i thought that too.. in fact i can say from some small experience that it is kind of similar, at least with that heal..

biggest thing tho is that DK dont have the ability to spam Bleed damage like a WW... WW will become the rare but dangerous killers of Block lovers in PVP

Milf_Hero

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Ragefist wrote: »

With the solid selfheal I just can't get out of my mind the idea of "Turn into DK for 30sec" ultimate

AHAHAHAH!!! YES!!! I didn't want to say anything but I felt the same way :P

With any luck it'll actually turn out that way

hate to bust bubbles but, if your rocking a stamina build... and the healing is off magicka, and your don't have reflective scales, blazing shield, or sparks, that ability the shield has to deflect projectiles. so you might be a DK for 10 seconds, as you spam heals on yourself and then run out of magicka as your are singled out and cc/annihilated by NB archers, dks, and sorcs. That is, if your using it on the front lines of a zerg vs zerg. I always thought werewolves were opportunist hunters like how gank squads work. Take your pack and cut of reinforcements between two points of interest with enemy traffic in-between.

Though I guess if your weren't alone and you have help from other wolves fearing people that would use things like crystal shards, silver bolts, and poison arrow off ya while you did work.. that wouldn't be a heaping pile of failure on the battlefield.

ExiledKhallisi

***_Hero wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Ragefist wrote: »

With the solid selfheal I just can't get out of my mind the idea of "Turn into DK for 30sec" ultimate

AHAHAHAH!!! YES!!! I didn't want to say anything but I felt the same way :P

With any luck it'll actually turn out that way

hate to bust bubbles but, if your rocking a stamina build... and the healing is off magicka, and your don't have reflective scales, blazing shield, or sparks, that ability the shield has to deflect projectiles. so you might be a DK for 10 seconds, as you spam heals on yourself and then run out of magicka as your are singled out and cc/annihilated by NB archers, dks, and sorcs. That is, if your using it on the front lines of a zerg vs zerg. I always thought werewolves were opportunist hunters like how gank squads work. Take your pack and cut of reinforcements between two points of interest with enemy traffic in-between.

Though I guess if your weren't alone and you have help from other wolves fearing people that would use things like crystal shards, silver bolts, and poison arrow off ya while you did work.. that wouldn't be a heaping pile of failure on the battlefield.

Dont forget that Werewolves have an amazing gap closer and run faster than a maxed out speed horse. I do agree with you slightly however, those archers better be quick.

omy_mkeb17_ESO

What about the drain of ultimate points when changing back to human form? Is it fixed yet?

Hypertionb14_ESO

omy_mkeb17_ESO wrote: »

What about the drain of ultimate points when changing back to human form? Is it fixed yet?

nope

Oronell

Created a poll if anyone's interested.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/138076/should-the-werewolf-world-skill-be-closer-to-an-ultimate-or-a-class-skill

Thechemicals

Anyone know if you still need the ultimate slotted to gain ultimate?

Orchish

Thechemicals wrote: »

Anyone know if you still need the ultimate slotted to gain ultimate?

And if so, anyone know if it needs to be on your active bar? or can we can finally slot it on bar 2 and gain ultimate while using bar 1?

Darkonflare15

Orchish wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Anyone know if you still need the ultimate slotted to gain ultimate?

And if so, anyone know if it needs to be on your active bar? or can we can finally slot it on bar 2 and gain ultimate while using bar 1?

Yes you can gain ultimate without having the werewolf ultimate on you bar. I have the werewolf ultimate on skill bar 2 and soul harvest ultimate on skill bar 1 and when I using the skill bar 1 it charges ultimate on skill bar 2.