Werewolf 1.5.1 Changes Review.

Xsorus

You only get the 50% bonus damage from poison when you are in werewolf form, same with fighters guild abilities in you

Milf_Hero

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

You only get the 50% bonus damage from poison when you are in werewolf form, same with fighters guild abilities in you

Really? well still doesn't change that I think it still should be more like a change when I want to, type of thing. When you look at your stat screen, and look at the buffs and debuffs on you, you see you have lycanthropy. Ults slotted or not slotted don't put buffs or debuffs on your character. This still distinguishes werewolves entirely to something like vampirism.

Lykanus

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Why this ultimate should be just like this ultimate. Reasoning for comparing two ultimates duh because they are ultimates even though they do completely two different things. I have ultimate that does burst damage. I have one that boost my defense. The one ultimate that boost my defense sucks because It does not do damage like my character even though it can still be helpful to somebody else build.

We players are such fickle and complex beings.

While i agree that you cant make it everybody right, its here a far other problem. The werewolf itstelf isnt just one ability, its a full skill line like a fixed player build (at least should be- and not a dps buff button for 30sec) which also brings downsides.
You get a fixed skill set, you are melee only, you are more vulnerable (especially in PvP) and you got limited time.
So you need upsides that bring in the ability where you are useful and can bring in some good-not even needed best- chunk of damage or utility and hopefully fun.

The problem here is where is currently the werewolf useful, where will players want for themselfes (not just for the looks / roleplay) would say hey here in my group i would also like one werewolf, or better lets say at least they would accept one.

I dont want here any extremes like giant damage numbers , invulnerablities, just that you can and will use werewolves because he got somewhere between all this options his way he can do it.

I can think that he will maybe never be a great PvP option(melee only, poison, range, time limits, diversity of skills which brings an advantage when the enemy doesnt exactly know whats coming from you) but then he should be at least be a PvE option. Currently he is none of em with 1.5.1 as you cant sustain in a group your werewolf.

It needs one of the here listed suggestions:
-) Either increase the base time to like 90 seconds,
-) Let the packleader morph let him sustain it on himself (and his group) or
-) Stop the werewolf timer with a passive while hitting mobs with light/heavy attacks with a refreshing (not stacking!) buff that stops the werewolf-time-counter for 3 seconds, like during devour it is stopped or like on hircine's shrine around it shouldnt be hard to implement with a 100% proc chance on the light/heavy attacks.

Nihil wrote: »

While you might be right that no one would take you into a group based on if you are using WW or not, that doesn't mean they are correct (people will isolate other builds that they fear might under perform even if they don't).

What i wanted to show is that the comparsion of the min/max dps isnt a option for testing the playability of the werewolves out. The dps is normally tested in a sandbox environment, however on the wolf you have to consider so much more (the devour time, the usability on group encounters, the ability to do melee dps on a boss which is often more dangerous then range and of pvp we dont even speak yet). Even if you come up with higher DPS numbers then some other builds its likely that still no one will use the werewolf because of all the other problems. I wouldnt compare a werewolf with a continuously available human build which even in often cases is a range one too. I would say the werewolf itself is a build which needs to be able to be used in group play and pvp somewhat at least.

If you treat the WW like an all available build, its in truth currently just is a 30 sec dps buff "like" a potion, but by far not so easy to use and a far longer downtime as you start with 0 ultimate while other already got it during the use. But overall it should not feel like a buff button for 30 secs, it should feel more like a build, where the player fits his character, items and skills and especially the skill use (in our case the 5 ww skills) for the Werewolf and therefor should also come the damage from it(intelligent use of it, not only by pressing the button).

What the changes needs to be is to make it naturally fitting into groups/playerbuilds more permanent without stressing the group or the player. I would even say even if the werewolf would be "just" in the higher third of the "best" dps builds it would be brought into groups as long as it would be able to be used in them without bringing a large complexity with it and a more durable, longer working option in a group where you pick your fight as a werewolf and stay it throughout this fight. .

I do strongly suggest that it should be overthought the condition where and how you actually can use the werewolf - and where players will want to use a werewolf - before bringing 1.5 live.

omy_mkeb17_ESO

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌

Currently there is this issue: we loose the ultimate points gained in ww form when transforming back into human form.

If this would be fixed, it would be a big bone for the WWs, and it's not even a buff.... it's as it should be.

Pls make it happen after 6 months...

Thx!

Hypertionb14_ESO

OK, i am having more fun on Live thanks to the longer base duration than i am on PTS with Werewolf..

the duration reduction was way too severe... and honestly feels like it renders all of the other changes pointless.

there is nothing that can make up for that loss... stop trying to "balance" changes to something that is overall not as viable as general play.

risen1981

Anyone tried if a pack of wolfs can feed on the same corpse? if that doesnt work then i foresee another big issue..

Chrlynsch

Any EP want to help me test pack leaders add time on PTS?

ExiledKhallisi

risen1981 wrote: »

Anyone tried if a pack of wolfs can feed on the same corpse? if that doesnt work then i foresee another big issue..

They cant.

Shayu

According to the live stream ZOS is doing, werewolves are slated to receive more damage buffs instead of a time increase in 1.52. How do you guys feel about this?

Nihil

Lykanus wrote: »

(snip)

Nihil wrote: »

While you might be right that no one would take you into a group based on if you are using WW or not, that doesn't mean they are correct (people will isolate other builds that they fear might under perform even if they don't).

What i wanted to show is that the comparsion of the min/max dps isnt a option for testing the playability of the werewolves out. The dps is normally tested in a sandbox environment, however on the wolf you have to consider so much more (the devour time, the usability on group encounters, the ability to do melee dps on a boss which is often more dangerous then range and of pvp we dont even speak yet). Even if you come up with higher DPS numbers then some other builds its likely that still no one will use the werewolf because of all the other problems. I wouldnt compare a werewolf with a continuously available human build which even in often cases is a range one too. I would say the werewolf itself is a build which needs to be able to be used in group play and pvp somewhat at least.
If you treat the WW like an all available build, its in truth currently just is a 30 sec dps buff "like" a potion, but by far not so easy to use and a far longer downtime as you start with 0 ultimate while other already got it during the use. But overall it should not feel like a buff button for 30 secs, it should feel more like a build, where the player fits his character, items and skills and especially the skill use (in our case the 5 ww skills) for the Werewolf and therefor should also come the damage from it(intelligent use of it, not only by pressing the button).

What the changes needs to be is to make it naturally fitting into groups/playerbuilds more permanent without stressing the group or the player. I would even say even if the werewolf would be "just" in the higher third of the "best" dps builds it would be brought into groups as long as it would be able to be used in them without bringing a large complexity with it and a more durable, longer working option in a group where you pick your fight as a werewolf and stay it throughout this fight. .

I do strongly suggest that it should be overthought the condition where and how you actually can use the werewolf - and where players will want to use a werewolf - before bringing 1.5 live.

The devour time is part of the reason I have been trying to keep most of my thinking in the form of "30 seconds" In group play it isn't all that viable to be devouring enemies and running on, thus why I haven't even tried to touch on that subject. I am not going to downplay the difficulty of sustaining WW (and I even agree that ultimate gain should be retained after leaving WW form if at all possible in the technical side), The time limit might need some working too, or altering of abilities to give yourself options on how to extend your time in WW form (buff call of the pack maybe?).

I agree it needs to be able to viable in all areas of play and I very much would like to see that, but as I have been seeing a lot of focus has been on increasing the timer. The problems that could be associated with it I think lies far deeper then how long you get to be in WW form, like you said it should feel like a build. It is a melee based build so when designing a build to support that survivability is a key aspect to look at. The abilities (as I see them) seem to lend the WW in being able to get into the middle of fray, separate enemies (slightly with fear), and focus down someone trying to prevent them the chance to heal up. The down falls I see, is they have no mitigation, they have a heal but when in the middle of a group you can't just heal, and they become very susceptible to CC. This is where I think some focus could be taken, without having the universal survival abilities at their disposal they might need some balancing so they can be up close and personal.

They will hopefully keep an eye on how all it plays out, and they have already shown that they do take what plays ask into consideration (added 15 % stamina recovery while in and out of WW form, lot of people were asking for a perk while out of WW form), so hopefully this trend will continue and they will make it feel strong and useful while not being broken.

Thejollygreenone

Shayu wrote: »

According to the live stream ZOS is doing, werewolves are slated to receive more damage buffs instead of a time increase in 1.52. How do you guys feel about this?

Good?

This was the point right? One or the other?

nicedragon

Shayu wrote: »

According to the live stream ZOS is doing, werewolves are slated to receive more damage buffs instead of a time increase in 1.52. How do you guys feel about this?

Bad and betrayed.

Glad my sub is ending in 2 weeks. 6 months thinking (I guess) and now they killing Werewolf and creating sort of "I win" button.

Hypertionb14_ESO

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

OK, i am having more fun on Live thanks to the longer base duration than i am on PTS with Werewolf..

the duration reduction was way too severe... and honestly feels like it renders all of the other changes pointless.

Shayu wrote: »

According to the live stream ZOS is doing, werewolves are slated to receive more damage buffs instead of a time increase in 1.52. How do you guys feel about this?

depending on the level, if even 30 seconds of overall 30-50% greater possible damage is possible it can then be considered a Ultimate, instead of a secondary form..

but at the same time i liked having it as a secondary form... the self heal offers better survial capability than my base NB has on its own..

it all comes down to if its fun or not....

Darkonflare15

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

OK, i am having more fun on Live thanks to the longer base duration than i am on PTS with Werewolf..

the duration reduction was way too severe... and honestly feels like it renders all of the other changes pointless.

Shayu wrote: »

According to the live stream ZOS is doing, werewolves are slated to receive more damage buffs instead of a time increase in 1.52. How do you guys feel about this?

depending on the level, if even 30 seconds of overall 30-50% greater possible damage is possible it can then be considered a Ultimate, instead of a secondary form..

but at the same time i liked having it as a secondary form... the self heal offers better survial capability than my base NB has on its own..

it all comes down to if its fun or not....

Kind of knew this was going to happen when people complain about the werewolf having less dps than their human build and that the werewolf was not a good ultimate. So they are improving the damage of WW so it can be more like an ultimate which is the reason why they lowered the timer. I have notice when people complain about multiple things Eso tends to optimize one thing and lower another thing. So we get a powerful WW ultimate instead of role playing sub type WW.

Lykanus

I still do hope they do read our arguments that not a heavily damage only solution, more like a player build/skill line that can also plays its roll in a group, is wanted. No one here wants just another Ultimate button feeling - even if it should become strong.


For that a time/sustainable/survive(pvp) change to the WW is needed for group play instead of increasing now the damage which could stay where it currently is i would say. It could even be done (if the devs think they really need to limit it someway) to increase the Ultimate cost again a bit but therefor lengthen the duration to make a tradeoff.

If really only a dmg buff should be planned for 1.5.2 it risks that if they should raise the damage so high that it finally will be worthwhile even with in the current state, that it comes to situations where its over the top when active, but useless when not, ie getting into two extremes which should be avoided and gives everyone a somewhat bad feeling.

risen1981

geez.. i really only want longer time not a "i win" button. wrong direction if you ask me

omy_mkeb17_ESO

What about the ultimate points reset when returning to human form? Still no word on that?

Lykanus

omy_mkeb17_ESO wrote: »

What about the ultimate points reset when returning to human form? Still no word on that?

Problem with that would be still that the timer is to short to finish anything more then soloing, like a pulls in group content in pvp or a bossfight - sure you'd be able to get faster wolf again when your ultimate remains after it and it would do some help - but lets hope it gets a better lasting solution.

Shayu

I think the damage buff could be good, it's like @Hypertionb14_ESO‌ said, it's all about whether or not it's fun to play. I'm just glad they took werewolf in A direction; I know some of us wanted it be more permanent and less powerful, but I at least ZOS is doing something with the wolf; I'd rather it be powerful and short than be weak and short.

I think it could be fun if they give us enough power that it inspires a temporary sense of invincibility where we can charge into a boss or a player and take them to the ground.

Shayu

On an unrelated note, I've heard someone talking about how they've been interrupted during the transformation process on the PTS; has anyone here had that happen to them? If so it was promised to us that we would be immune to interrupts during our transformation after 1.5 and we need to let ZOS know that it is bugged.

Hypertionb14_ESO

Shayu wrote: »

On an unrelated note, I've heard someone talking about how they've been interrupted during the transformation process on the PTS; has anyone here had that happen to them? If so it was promised to us that we would be immune to interrupts during our transformation after 1.5 and we need to let ZOS know that it is bugged.

roll dodging still does it, i know that one for a fact..

starkerealm

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Shayu wrote: »

According to the live stream ZOS is doing, werewolves are slated to receive more damage buffs instead of a time increase in 1.52. How do you guys feel about this?

Good?

This was the point right? One or the other?

I don't know. I've got werewolf characters because I enjoy it. Not because I was looking for a massive power boost.

Honestly, I think the whole transform duration system needs to be reevaluated. Shortening the transform, while also shortening the cooldown on devour doesn't strike me as a way to make it "more fun." It just means you're going to have to spend more time chewing on corpses to keep it going.

It also means bosses are a non-start.

Now, if the point of the transform is to keep you from bouncing between mobs as a wolf, I can get that, but there has got to be a better way to handle that than just chewing on corpses every seven seconds.

That said, I haven't seen the PTS version yet, first hand; I don't have the hard drive space for it. But, as a player with 4 wolf characters, nerfing the duration has me seriously worried.

ryu40010b14_ESO

After extensive testing ive come to an epiphany, 1 thing can make WW more viable and make many people happy.

Give WW one active ability as a human, "Raging Barrage" a stamina based ability that allows you to increase atk speed by 15-25% for 5-10 secs and each hit grants 5-10 ultimate.

it would allow you to effectively recharge your WW in PvP and PvE boss battles

i also think that Ultimate should be returned after combat but thats pretty much a global request ;P

also a new passive perhaps called "Gorge" that has 2 ranks, 1st rank would allow you to overcharge the timer by Devouring up to 45 sec and the 2nd rank up to 60 sec.

not sure if all this has been requested before but i felt it may help.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

omy_mkeb17_ESO

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Fix the ultimate loss when returning to human form pls!

guybrushtb16_ESO

ryu40010b14_ESO wrote: »

After extensive testing ive come to an epiphany, 1 thing can make WW more viable and make many people happy.

Give WW one active ability as a human, "Raging Barrage" a stamina based ability that allows you to increase atk speed by 15-25% for 5-10 secs and each hit grants 5-10 ultimate.

it would allow you to effectively recharge your WW in PvP and PvE boss battles

Actually, that would promote gaining stupid amounts of damage and ultimate and then using it on a better ability like stacking flame banners or whatever...

ryu40010b14_ESO

yeah came to that conclusion after the fact..... figured that perhaps instead if they changed diseased claws morph to give a timer boost instead of heal or debuff it would prolong fights without needing to transform back in the first place defeating the purpose of the human ability.

nicedragon

Instead calling it Werewolf timer they could change it to rage meter. Works almost the same as timer mixed with ultimate: Every hit (from enemy or to enemy) increase it and every second decrease. With correct values that could solve long PvE fights without very heavy changes to timer mechanic (I think it requires to edit only 1 passive ability) and Devour would be still usefully (eg. when player want travel in that form).

Yet still don't solve Werewolf identity problem. Because right now (and since ESO launch) you could rename Werewolf to Weregorilla or Werealit and whole skill line will suit too (skills behaviour, not the names :P ) In fact animations and sounds are not very bestial too. Four legs running is huge improvement for me in that matter but not the only one problem. @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Maou

nicedragon wrote: »

Instead calling it Werewolf timer they could change it to rage meter. Works almost the same as timer mixed with ultimate: Every hit (from enemy or to enemy) increase it and every second decrease. With correct values that could solve long PvE fights without very heavy changes to timer mechanic (I think it requires to edit only 1 passive ability) and Devour would be still usefully (eg. when player want travel in that form).

Yet still don't solve Werewolf identity problem. Because right now (and since ESO launch) you could rename Werewolf to Weregorilla or Werealit and whole skill line will suit too (skills behaviour, not the names :P ) In fact animations and sounds are not very bestial too. Four legs running is huge improvement for me in that matter but not the only one problem. @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

I'm not a big fan of the whole idea of a meter that decreases by hits. I can see the advantages of it, such as more pvp viability and rp scenarios, but at the same time one of the great things about the current system is how you can potentially stay a werewolf for as long as you like so long as you keep feeding. I don't really mind at all what the werewolf currently is in pts but then again I'm a strict PVE player that's happy just being a werewolf and not paying too much attention to dps increase. I think what the devs really need is to just somehow find that sweet spot between better damage than in human form, with a decent timer so then one can stay wolfed out for an acceptable time in pvp (that, or somehow make it so player bodies will still linger around for a little while after they respawn) But the problem with that is that in human form, we have access to a plethora of abilities that increase our damage resistance, damage output, weapon speed, etc. which results in a large increase in potential DPS. Werewolves, however, rely on the buffs that come from the transformation and little else. If we were to be given some kind of buff that gave us more damage than we do in a funded human form, I think the only result would be an overpowered wolf with a ten-second timer and many a gamer complaining about how op they are, eventually leading to a crippling series/immediate nerf which could make the werewolf worse than it is currently (and despite all these reasonable complaints, I think we can all agree the current werewolf isn't all that bad, and a MUCH better improvement than what we had at launch.)

starkerealm

Maou wrote: »

I'm not a big fan of the whole idea of a meter that decreases by hits.

I think he was actually talking about a meter that refreshed whenever you hit or were hit. I'd certainly be in favor of one that refreshed by a second or so with every successful attack. I'm not sure if receiving damage would be a good refresh, though, since that could create situations where you're not actually fighting anyone, but DoTs keep your transform going. It would also make crowd control a lot more serious for werewolves (kind of like how it is now, with the no break free bug).

risen1981

I dont get it why is it such a technical issue just to remove the dam timer and make it a toggle... i mean if the can increas it, decrease it, how can it be so hard to just remove it?...