Battle Roar - Is this why DK's are thought to be so strong?

Itse90210

For nightblade you must spend 1 ability slot and waste 20% wpn dmg and spell dmg!!! And i cant affort it with melee build, you need to attack and block to be succesessfull, the only way is to pick up shield, veiled strike/strife, with resto staff in the other bar. It's unbalanced because of 2 classes havent self heals and need to use resto staff.

JackDaniell

Rylana wrote: »

I am going to play devils advocate here.

Nightblades and Sorcs can usually escape battle. Templars not so much but they have insane healing potential as well as some serious debuffs to ward off attackers for a while.

A DK in a fight is literally trapped in that fight. There is no running, there is nothing but powering through. DKs need the best resource management for their defense/offense, otherwise they would just be the joke of the battlefield, the easiest kill because they are the easiest to pin.

Good points and I agree that DK's should in fact have the best recourse management because of this issue. Do you however think that the return may be to much?

Maulkin

JackDaniell wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .

Stated above does not make it right. Your opinion, but I disagree. The synergy of certain passives can make a combination powerful without each one individually being OP.

As I said, in PvE or PvP without Combat Frenzy you don't have access to Battle Roar so often so you don't have resources back so often.

If the issue is Battle Roar alone and it was removed, then PvE DKs and low ranked PvP DKs would have less resource recovery than other classes who have abilities rather than passives, to give them resources.

Good points, a very strong opinion. For me I think that the access to battle roar mixed with devouring swarm can begin to push the setup over the edge. In ideal conditions (Combat Frenzy ect) the build will perform at it highest. Do you think at this point the build performs to well?

In short, yes it does.

But there's a third element at play here which is Bat Swarm which is
a) cheap
b) generates ult like a mudafucka cause it's a PBAoE that also allows you to cast another PBAoE while channelling
c) gives Battler Roar as if it's a 250 ult ability when in fact with reductions it costs 150. Which arguably is a bug

As a traditional non-Vamp DK, running Banner and Dragon Leap as ults, I find statements like "DK could easily exceed 10000 Magicka, Stamina and Health returned in 1 minute of ultimate generating combat" insane, borderline offensive.

Decomposing these numbers, I get around 2k resources per minute on average by my normal regen. The rest 8k you claim, would have to be recovered by Battle Roar at ~750 per Roar. 60/(8k/750) = 5.45, or an ultie every 5.5 secs.

Even with Combat Frenzy II and Bat Swarm it's debatable whether you could hit those numbers, let alone easily exceed them as you say. Adding hyperbole won't help your argument.

Anyhow. What I'm saying is, we have to look at ult genereation in PvP. If people can string ulties together (which they can though not to the degree you're describing), that strikes me as more out of order than getting resources back on ult activation.

The issue is mostly with batswarm too. I see Sorcs chaining bats one after the other, but they can't do that with Negate. Not since the Streak nerf at least. Because bats are both cheaper and they generate ult much faster.

DKs of course see more benefit out of all this, but we have to identify and decompose the combination of things that lead to this build being so sustainable, before we attack individual abilities or passives which would result in other builds being wrecked.

As a disclaimer: The base return is 700 on battle roar, not 600 as I had incorrectly quoted.

Batswarm aside as an ability (it does however have many drawbacks) Sustain of the numbers I quoted is quite possible.

Assuming you have 100 Magicka and Stamina return every 2 seconds.

100 x 30 = 3000 Magicka and Stamina a minute.
Batswarm - Base 700 + 140 (70% of 200) = 840 ultimate per cast.

To achieve exactly 10000 Magicka and Stamina return (assuming non is wasted) in 1 minute a DK would need to use batswarm (6 second duration) once every 8.33 seconds.

Now I have played as a vampire Templar and I know from experience when hitting 4 or more targets it is very possible to sustain multiple swarms in a row (a swarm every 6 seconds). The limiting factor for me as a Templar however was that after about 4-5 swarms I would run out of magicka to continue to deal damage with and build ultimate with.

That is the key to the argument. The DK can just keep going where EVERY other class in the situation could not simply because battle roar over performs in these situations to, as you quoted the numbers, an insane degree.

Not necessarily, I reject the key to the argument.

You're making the assumption that because every class can chain 4-5 ulties in a row, that's ok with the devs while Battle Roar is the issue. I'd argue the opposite, that Battle Roar isn't the issue but the ability to chain ults in PvP is the issue. Until the devs speak or take actions we don't know what their view is.

Someone might go as far as saying Bat Swarm in particular is the issue as it's so cheap and generates so much ult. Would you be able to chain Novas together on your Templar? I think not.

The ult chaining is potentially something the devs did not anticipate. If however the devs intended people to throw ulties as often as abilities then, in my opinion, they need their heads checked. But if they are somehow happy with this, then by all means nerf or remove Battle Roar and give DKs an ability like Siphoning Attacks.

JackDaniell

Itse90210 wrote: »

For nightblade you must spend 1 ability slot and waste 20% wpn dmg and spell dmg!!! And i cant affort it with melee build, you need to attack and block to be succesessfull, the only way is to pick up shield, veiled strike/strife, with resto staff in the other bar. It's unbalanced because of 2 classes havent self heals and need to use resto staff.

Good point, a night blade is punished for increasing recourse management when using siphoning strikes. Where a DK must make no negative changes to increase management. As for the self heal issue this is not the forum for that.

JackDaniell

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .

Stated above does not make it right. Your opinion, but I disagree. The synergy of certain passives can make a combination powerful without each one individually being OP.

As I said, in PvE or PvP without Combat Frenzy you don't have access to Battle Roar so often so you don't have resources back so often.

If the issue is Battle Roar alone and it was removed, then PvE DKs and low ranked PvP DKs would have less resource recovery than other classes who have abilities rather than passives, to give them resources.

Good points, a very strong opinion. For me I think that the access to battle roar mixed with devouring swarm can begin to push the setup over the edge. In ideal conditions (Combat Frenzy ect) the build will perform at it highest. Do you think at this point the build performs to well?

In short, yes it does.

But there's a third element at play here which is Bat Swarm which is
a) cheap
b) generates ult like a mudafucka cause it's a PBAoE that also allows you to cast another PBAoE while channelling
c) gives Battler Roar as if it's a 250 ult ability when in fact with reductions it costs 150. Which arguably is a bug

As a traditional non-Vamp DK, running Banner and Dragon Leap as ults, I find statements like "DK could easily exceed 10000 Magicka, Stamina and Health returned in 1 minute of ultimate generating combat" insane, borderline offensive.

Decomposing these numbers, I get around 2k resources per minute on average by my normal regen. The rest 8k you claim, would have to be recovered by Battle Roar at ~750 per Roar. 60/(8k/750) = 5.45, or an ultie every 5.5 secs.

Even with Combat Frenzy II and Bat Swarm it's debatable whether you could hit those numbers, let alone easily exceed them as you say. Adding hyperbole won't help your argument.

Anyhow. What I'm saying is, we have to look at ult genereation in PvP. If people can string ulties together (which they can though not to the degree you're describing), that strikes me as more out of order than getting resources back on ult activation.

The issue is mostly with batswarm too. I see Sorcs chaining bats one after the other, but they can't do that with Negate. Not since the Streak nerf at least. Because bats are both cheaper and they generate ult much faster.

DKs of course see more benefit out of all this, but we have to identify and decompose the combination of things that lead to this build being so sustainable, before we attack individual abilities or passives which would result in other builds being wrecked.

As a disclaimer: The base return is 700 on battle roar, not 600 as I had incorrectly quoted.

Batswarm aside as an ability (it does however have many drawbacks) Sustain of the numbers I quoted is quite possible.

Assuming you have 100 Magicka and Stamina return every 2 seconds.

100 x 30 = 3000 Magicka and Stamina a minute.
Batswarm - Base 700 + 140 (70% of 200) = 840 ultimate per cast.

To achieve exactly 10000 Magicka and Stamina return (assuming non is wasted) in 1 minute a DK would need to use batswarm (6 second duration) once every 8.33 seconds.

Now I have played as a vampire Templar and I know from experience when hitting 4 or more targets it is very possible to sustain multiple swarms in a row (a swarm every 6 seconds). The limiting factor for me as a Templar however was that after about 4-5 swarms I would run out of magicka to continue to deal damage with and build ultimate with.

That is the key to the argument. The DK can just keep going where EVERY other class in the situation could not simply because battle roar over performs in these situations to, as you quoted the numbers, an insane degree.

Not necessarily, I reject the key to the argument.

You're making the assumption that because every class can chain 4-5 ulties in a row, that's ok with the devs while Battle Roar is the issue. I'd argue the opposite, that Battle Roar isn't the issue but the ability to chain ults in PvP is the issue. Until the devs speak or take actions we don't know what their view is.

Someone might go as far as saying Bat Swarm in particular is the issue as it's so cheap and generates so much ult. Would you be able to chain Novas together on your Templar? I think not.

The ult chaining is potentially something the devs did not anticipate. If however the devs intended people to throw ulties as often as abilities then, in my opinion, they need their heads checked. But if they are somehow happy with this, then by all means nerf or remove Battle Roar and give DKs an ability like Siphoning Attacks.

I agree with your statement that ultimates are chained together to quickly. But that is not the issue of the argument for me. Ultimate chaining is something that the debs attempted to address time and time again but still remains an issue.

As for Battle Roar, changes to this ultimate gain have not been able to slow it down. Perhaps a cool down on battle roar would be an appropriate change for now until the issue you see as more responsible is resolved? This is just due to the impact of huge changes like significant ultimate gain reduction to the game.

Rylana

JackDaniell wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

I am going to play devils advocate here.

Nightblades and Sorcs can usually escape battle. Templars not so much but they have insane healing potential as well as some serious debuffs to ward off attackers for a while.

A DK in a fight is literally trapped in that fight. There is no running, there is nothing but powering through. DKs need the best resource management for their defense/offense, otherwise they would just be the joke of the battlefield, the easiest kill because they are the easiest to pin.

Good points and I agree that DK's should in fact have the best recourse management because of this issue. Do you however think that the return may be to much?

Considering how often I get swarmed on my DK, the management seems just right as it is.

Remove the damage penalty from leeching strikes (nightblade), give any management skill to templars, and reduce the effectiveness of impen vs critical surge for sorcs, and I think it would be a better solution over all. Equilibrium only goes so far for healer managements.

I speak from experience as a DK, battleroar is amazing, but it is no I-win button. Can it get you out of a tight spot? yeah, but it wont save you if youre still getting hammered by whatever beat you down in the first place (unless you manage to kill it)

JackDaniell

Rylana wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

I am going to play devils advocate here.

Nightblades and Sorcs can usually escape battle. Templars not so much but they have insane healing potential as well as some serious debuffs to ward off attackers for a while.

A DK in a fight is literally trapped in that fight. There is no running, there is nothing but powering through. DKs need the best resource management for their defense/offense, otherwise they would just be the joke of the battlefield, the easiest kill because they are the easiest to pin.

Good points and I agree that DK's should in fact have the best recourse management because of this issue. Do you however think that the return may be to much?

Considering how often I get swarmed on my DK, the management seems just right as it is.

Remove the damage penalty from leeching strikes (nightblade), give any management skill to templars, and reduce the effectiveness of impen vs critical surge for sorcs, and I think it would be a better solution over all. Equilibrium only goes so far for healer managements.

I speak from experience as a DK, battleroar is amazing, but it is no I-win button. Can it get you out of a tight spot? yeah, but it wont save you if youre still getting hammered by whatever beat you down in the first place (unless you manage to kill it)

Yes battle roar is not an i-win button. But at times and with the right builds it really seems to over perform to the point of being far past a reasonable amount of recourse management.

Perhaps your build does not cater to this, but many DK builds almost rely on ultimate use and the huge amounts of recourses it CAN give to stay alive in fights where any other class would crumble quickly.

Maulkin

JackDaniell wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .

Stated above does not make it right. Your opinion, but I disagree. The synergy of certain passives can make a combination powerful without each one individually being OP.

As I said, in PvE or PvP without Combat Frenzy you don't have access to Battle Roar so often so you don't have resources back so often.

If the issue is Battle Roar alone and it was removed, then PvE DKs and low ranked PvP DKs would have less resource recovery than other classes who have abilities rather than passives, to give them resources.

Good points, a very strong opinion. For me I think that the access to battle roar mixed with devouring swarm can begin to push the setup over the edge. In ideal conditions (Combat Frenzy ect) the build will perform at it highest. Do you think at this point the build performs to well?

In short, yes it does.

But there's a third element at play here which is Bat Swarm which is
a) cheap
b) generates ult like a mudafucka cause it's a PBAoE that also allows you to cast another PBAoE while channelling
c) gives Battler Roar as if it's a 250 ult ability when in fact with reductions it costs 150. Which arguably is a bug

As a traditional non-Vamp DK, running Banner and Dragon Leap as ults, I find statements like "DK could easily exceed 10000 Magicka, Stamina and Health returned in 1 minute of ultimate generating combat" insane, borderline offensive.

Decomposing these numbers, I get around 2k resources per minute on average by my normal regen. The rest 8k you claim, would have to be recovered by Battle Roar at ~750 per Roar. 60/(8k/750) = 5.45, or an ultie every 5.5 secs.

Even with Combat Frenzy II and Bat Swarm it's debatable whether you could hit those numbers, let alone easily exceed them as you say. Adding hyperbole won't help your argument.

Anyhow. What I'm saying is, we have to look at ult genereation in PvP. If people can string ulties together (which they can though not to the degree you're describing), that strikes me as more out of order than getting resources back on ult activation.

The issue is mostly with batswarm too. I see Sorcs chaining bats one after the other, but they can't do that with Negate. Not since the Streak nerf at least. Because bats are both cheaper and they generate ult much faster.

DKs of course see more benefit out of all this, but we have to identify and decompose the combination of things that lead to this build being so sustainable, before we attack individual abilities or passives which would result in other builds being wrecked.

As a disclaimer: The base return is 700 on battle roar, not 600 as I had incorrectly quoted.

Batswarm aside as an ability (it does however have many drawbacks) Sustain of the numbers I quoted is quite possible.

Assuming you have 100 Magicka and Stamina return every 2 seconds.

100 x 30 = 3000 Magicka and Stamina a minute.
Batswarm - Base 700 + 140 (70% of 200) = 840 ultimate per cast.

To achieve exactly 10000 Magicka and Stamina return (assuming non is wasted) in 1 minute a DK would need to use batswarm (6 second duration) once every 8.33 seconds.

Now I have played as a vampire Templar and I know from experience when hitting 4 or more targets it is very possible to sustain multiple swarms in a row (a swarm every 6 seconds). The limiting factor for me as a Templar however was that after about 4-5 swarms I would run out of magicka to continue to deal damage with and build ultimate with.

That is the key to the argument. The DK can just keep going where EVERY other class in the situation could not simply because battle roar over performs in these situations to, as you quoted the numbers, an insane degree.

Not necessarily, I reject the key to the argument.

You're making the assumption that because every class can chain 4-5 ulties in a row, that's ok with the devs while Battle Roar is the issue. I'd argue the opposite, that Battle Roar isn't the issue but the ability to chain ults in PvP is the issue. Until the devs speak or take actions we don't know what their view is.

Someone might go as far as saying Bat Swarm in particular is the issue as it's so cheap and generates so much ult. Would you be able to chain Novas together on your Templar? I think not.

The ult chaining is potentially something the devs did not anticipate. If however the devs intended people to throw ulties as often as abilities then, in my opinion, they need their heads checked. But if they are somehow happy with this, then by all means nerf or remove Battle Roar and give DKs an ability like Siphoning Attacks.

I agree with your statement that ultimates are chained together to quickly. But that is not the issue of the argument for me. Ultimate chaining is something that the debs attempted to address time and time again but still remains an issue.

As for Battle Roar, changes to this ultimate gain have not been able to slow it down. Perhaps a cool down on battle roar would be an appropriate change for now until the issue you see as more responsible is resolved? This is just due to the impact of huge changes like significant ultimate gain reduction to the game.

Like I said, that your opinion. You're fully entitled to it like I am entitled to disagree. The fact they haven't been able to address ult-chaining so far by no means they're ok with this or done with the changes. Nor does it mean they'll nerf everything affected by ult-chaining rather than addressing that first. Provided they want to address it of course, I can make no assumptions either.

You have to bear in mind though, AoEs will be uncapped soon. So they'll have to address AoE ultimate generation in the very near future. I'm pretty sure they'll have Battler Roar in mind with whatever changes they implement.

I expect AoE ult generation to be capped per ability cast which would probably tame Battler Roar a bit. At the current state of the game however, I would not oppose a cooldown of sorts as long as it's not an overnerf.

Rylana

JackDaniell wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

I am going to play devils advocate here.

Nightblades and Sorcs can usually escape battle. Templars not so much but they have insane healing potential as well as some serious debuffs to ward off attackers for a while.

A DK in a fight is literally trapped in that fight. There is no running, there is nothing but powering through. DKs need the best resource management for their defense/offense, otherwise they would just be the joke of the battlefield, the easiest kill because they are the easiest to pin.

Good points and I agree that DK's should in fact have the best recourse management because of this issue. Do you however think that the return may be to much?

Considering how often I get swarmed on my DK, the management seems just right as it is.

Remove the damage penalty from leeching strikes (nightblade), give any management skill to templars, and reduce the effectiveness of impen vs critical surge for sorcs, and I think it would be a better solution over all. Equilibrium only goes so far for healer managements.

I speak from experience as a DK, battleroar is amazing, but it is no I-win button. Can it get you out of a tight spot? yeah, but it wont save you if youre still getting hammered by whatever beat you down in the first place (unless you manage to kill it)

Yes battle roar is not an i-win button. But at times and with the right builds it really seems to over perform to the point of being far past a reasonable amount of recourse management.

Perhaps your build does not cater to this, but many DK builds almost rely on ultimate use and the huge amounts of recourses it CAN give to stay alive in fights where any other class would crumble quickly.

Non vamp, but I do use dominion set so my standards cost 180. I can drop a standard about once every 5-7 seconds in a really heavy battle, but no matter how hard I try, I can never sustain it without a break for magicka regen. Potions or not, magicka harness or not, replenishing barriers or not.

There is a finite amount of DPS I can put out before I wear myself out (and thats assuming I am doing nothing to defend myself like shield stacking or dragon blooding)

JackDaniell

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .

Stated above does not make it right. Your opinion, but I disagree. The synergy of certain passives can make a combination powerful without each one individually being OP.

As I said, in PvE or PvP without Combat Frenzy you don't have access to Battle Roar so often so you don't have resources back so often.

If the issue is Battle Roar alone and it was removed, then PvE DKs and low ranked PvP DKs would have less resource recovery than other classes who have abilities rather than passives, to give them resources.

Good points, a very strong opinion. For me I think that the access to battle roar mixed with devouring swarm can begin to push the setup over the edge. In ideal conditions (Combat Frenzy ect) the build will perform at it highest. Do you think at this point the build performs to well?

In short, yes it does.

But there's a third element at play here which is Bat Swarm which is
a) cheap
b) generates ult like a mudafucka cause it's a PBAoE that also allows you to cast another PBAoE while channelling
c) gives Battler Roar as if it's a 250 ult ability when in fact with reductions it costs 150. Which arguably is a bug

As a traditional non-Vamp DK, running Banner and Dragon Leap as ults, I find statements like "DK could easily exceed 10000 Magicka, Stamina and Health returned in 1 minute of ultimate generating combat" insane, borderline offensive.

Decomposing these numbers, I get around 2k resources per minute on average by my normal regen. The rest 8k you claim, would have to be recovered by Battle Roar at ~750 per Roar. 60/(8k/750) = 5.45, or an ultie every 5.5 secs.

Even with Combat Frenzy II and Bat Swarm it's debatable whether you could hit those numbers, let alone easily exceed them as you say. Adding hyperbole won't help your argument.

Anyhow. What I'm saying is, we have to look at ult genereation in PvP. If people can string ulties together (which they can though not to the degree you're describing), that strikes me as more out of order than getting resources back on ult activation.

The issue is mostly with batswarm too. I see Sorcs chaining bats one after the other, but they can't do that with Negate. Not since the Streak nerf at least. Because bats are both cheaper and they generate ult much faster.

DKs of course see more benefit out of all this, but we have to identify and decompose the combination of things that lead to this build being so sustainable, before we attack individual abilities or passives which would result in other builds being wrecked.

As a disclaimer: The base return is 700 on battle roar, not 600 as I had incorrectly quoted.

Batswarm aside as an ability (it does however have many drawbacks) Sustain of the numbers I quoted is quite possible.

Assuming you have 100 Magicka and Stamina return every 2 seconds.

100 x 30 = 3000 Magicka and Stamina a minute.
Batswarm - Base 700 + 140 (70% of 200) = 840 ultimate per cast.

To achieve exactly 10000 Magicka and Stamina return (assuming non is wasted) in 1 minute a DK would need to use batswarm (6 second duration) once every 8.33 seconds.

Now I have played as a vampire Templar and I know from experience when hitting 4 or more targets it is very possible to sustain multiple swarms in a row (a swarm every 6 seconds). The limiting factor for me as a Templar however was that after about 4-5 swarms I would run out of magicka to continue to deal damage with and build ultimate with.

That is the key to the argument. The DK can just keep going where EVERY other class in the situation could not simply because battle roar over performs in these situations to, as you quoted the numbers, an insane degree.

Not necessarily, I reject the key to the argument.

You're making the assumption that because every class can chain 4-5 ulties in a row, that's ok with the devs while Battle Roar is the issue. I'd argue the opposite, that Battle Roar isn't the issue but the ability to chain ults in PvP is the issue. Until the devs speak or take actions we don't know what their view is.

Someone might go as far as saying Bat Swarm in particular is the issue as it's so cheap and generates so much ult. Would you be able to chain Novas together on your Templar? I think not.

The ult chaining is potentially something the devs did not anticipate. If however the devs intended people to throw ulties as often as abilities then, in my opinion, they need their heads checked. But if they are somehow happy with this, then by all means nerf or remove Battle Roar and give DKs an ability like Siphoning Attacks.

I agree with your statement that ultimates are chained together to quickly. But that is not the issue of the argument for me. Ultimate chaining is something that the debs attempted to address time and time again but still remains an issue.

As for Battle Roar, changes to this ultimate gain have not been able to slow it down. Perhaps a cool down on battle roar would be an appropriate change for now until the issue you see as more responsible is resolved? This is just due to the impact of huge changes like significant ultimate gain reduction to the game.

Like I said, that your opinion. You're fully entitled to it like I am entitled to disagree. The fact they haven't been able to address ult-chaining so far by no means they're ok with this or done with the changes. Nor does it mean they'll nerf everything affected by ult-chaining rather than addressing that first. Provided they want to address it of course, I can make no assumptions either.

You have to bear in mind though, AoEs will be uncapped soon. So they'll have to address AoE ultimate generation in the very near future. I'm pretty sure they'll have Battler Roar in mind with whatever changes they implement.

I expect AoE ult generation to be capped per ability cast which would probably tame Battler Roar a bit. At the current state of the game however, I would not oppose a cooldown of sorts as long as it's not an overnerf.

Great stuff, I'm glad you joined me for this debate

I had not considered how they would address ult generation with the AOE caps being removed. Perhaps they have already resolved the issue and we just don't know about it yet. And yes an overnerf of a very useful passive such as battle roar is defiantly not what I had in mind. Just something to make it more on par, especially in those situations where is starts to run away with the current ult chaining system.

JackDaniell

Rylana wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

I am going to play devils advocate here.

Nightblades and Sorcs can usually escape battle. Templars not so much but they have insane healing potential as well as some serious debuffs to ward off attackers for a while.

A DK in a fight is literally trapped in that fight. There is no running, there is nothing but powering through. DKs need the best resource management for their defense/offense, otherwise they would just be the joke of the battlefield, the easiest kill because they are the easiest to pin.

Good points and I agree that DK's should in fact have the best recourse management because of this issue. Do you however think that the return may be to much?

Considering how often I get swarmed on my DK, the management seems just right as it is.

Remove the damage penalty from leeching strikes (nightblade), give any management skill to templars, and reduce the effectiveness of impen vs critical surge for sorcs, and I think it would be a better solution over all. Equilibrium only goes so far for healer managements.

I speak from experience as a DK, battleroar is amazing, but it is no I-win button. Can it get you out of a tight spot? yeah, but it wont save you if youre still getting hammered by whatever beat you down in the first place (unless you manage to kill it)

Yes battle roar is not an i-win button. But at times and with the right builds it really seems to over perform to the point of being far past a reasonable amount of recourse management.

Perhaps your build does not cater to this, but many DK builds almost rely on ultimate use and the huge amounts of recourses it CAN give to stay alive in fights where any other class would crumble quickly.

Non vamp, but I do use dominion set so my standards cost 180. I can drop a standard about once every 5-7 seconds in a really heavy battle, but no matter how hard I try, I can never sustain it without a break for magicka regen. Potions or not, magicka harness or not, replenishing barriers or not.

There is a finite amount of DPS I can put out before I wear myself out (and thats assuming I am doing nothing to defend myself like shield stacking or dragon blooding)

Hmm alright. I have used harness magic before (pre nerf state it is in) and with 5 or more light armour pieces it allowed me to sustain magic nearly indefinitely in combat. I would imagine that if my Templar had battle roar I would have had excess amounts of magicka.

As for your experience with battle roar take into comparison a class that does not gain recourses back when using an ultimate in the same situation. They can fire off an ultimate every 5-7 seconds but that means every 5-7 seconds they are missing out on the 840 Magicka, Stamina and Health that you are getting.

In perspective you are running with an added 280 regen every 2 seconds to each of your stats for the duration of that fight. You will eventually burn out of recourses, but much later than another class will.

Braidas

Yes prob needs a tune down...but instead, ZOS pls just give Temps this passive as well as the ability to flap and negate all projectile damage. k thx

flap flap

Xsorus

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Dk and Templar in general have a lot of sustain against greater numbers because they cannot up and run from a fight. If nbs and sorcs could sustain against similar numbers (and you can see how powerful it was with sorcs and shield stacking) they'd be crazy in pvp. I'm sure some nb will come in here and tell me dark cloak never works and it never saves him. I have an nb I pvp with so I know that's complete ***. I can't stay and fight like my dk.. But I sure as hell live longer in fights because I can escape most of the time

We're talking about 1vX here? If so I very very rarely am able to escape multiple foes using cloak. It continuously breaks. What are you doing with cloak that allows you to escape a 1vX situation?

Oh don't get me wrong, there are some fights I cannot get away from, but usually I just spam it, and if I really wanna get away I pop invis speed pot with it (which I was accused of speed hacking by some other yard nightblade) regardless I get away from overwhelming odds on my nb all day long where on my dk if be screwed

Yeah I've noticed spamming it can sometimes keep you stealthed after the initial couple of breaks. I'll try the invisi pots too, although its a bit stupid needing to use an invisi pot when you're suppose to have a working skill that does the same thing.

My issue is that the NBs only escape tool, which is being stated as a means of balance with templer/DK survivabilty, and on par with Sorc Bolt Escape, seems very easily countered if any of the players attacking you have tab targeted you or simply pop a detect potion.

Its less to do with the invisible and more to do with the speed boost I get from it...I could probably do speed/cc immunity for better results i just happened to have a bunch of stealth pots so i've been using them

Poxheart

I've used both Invisible/speed and invisible/unstoppable pots and have had both of them break. I haven't tested this to verify, but it appears that if an opponent casts a charge skill while facing in your direction (even if you're not visible), he will move to you and stealth will break when the charge ends. I've noticed this happening on both sides of the situation.

jkirchner71ub17_ESO2

OMFG now we are asking for passives to be nerfed. So sick of the whining, regardless of the class in question and/or passive. Too early in the AM for me for mathematics but from my experience on DK Rylana is dead on. I guess depending on builds one can say this passive or that passive is OP.

In their respective roles / classes one may consider all classes OP and nerf worthy. Personally with all the broken skills I can't even believe we are entertaining looking into unbroken passives. As for balancing keep in mind Zos is also trying to balance this game across the board - PvE and PvP. Said passives that are OP in Cyrodiil might be perfectly balanced for PvE.

Aerrimus

All this OP DK talk stems from broken armor skills. All they need to do is make light armor a little more squishy and require 5 pieces of a particular armor type to use the armor active skill. That would fix several problem areas:

1. High damage DKs will not be "tanks". (ie. glass canons)
2. Tank builds will survive longer but have lower damage.
3. Light armor builds will not have "unstoppable" making the "high dmg" DK less "tanky".

Messing with DK resource management isn't the fix...

GwaynLoki

What I got from the guild summit summaries, devs are looking into ultimate generation, to bring different builds on par, which might be the thing you guys are looking for. Uncapping AoEs will require this anyway, as well as a rebalance for some skills - at least that's what I suspect.

Sypher

Battle Roar is straight up bugged/not working as intended.

The passive clearly says that it returns resources based off of the ultimate cost.

But a standard that costs 200 ult and a bat swarm that costs 148 ult return the same value of resources.

Armitas

Wow. I am amazed that we are having an informative discussion on the PvP forums over a class skill. It's like I entered an alternate universe or something. Well done.

Here is my perspective as a DK.

I have no ranged damagers. If I want to do anything I have to rush right into the thick of my enemy which consequently will draw all of their fire. If I lose I get a blooper reel for Agrippa, if I win I get a 1vX video.

When I charge, I charge for the weakest cluster because in about 20 seconds I'm going to need some resources. I can enter this fight, but I can't leave it easily. I can't stealth away or bolt away. I'm out here in the middle of the enemy burning half my resources resisting the focus fire and the other half trying to kill something.

So I push into the weakest cluster. My entire mentality is to lock down my enemies to build ultimate through pbaoe, while focus firing the enemy that is most likely to die. So lets say I kill my enemy or two. Now what? I can't leave this battle field, it's a one way trip. I can either die or be allowed to continue based on my success. I succeeded in my first push and now I am rewarded with a chance to continue. My hope is that the rest of my faction will see my push and support me at range or push with me. If my faction does not support me I will die.

Ifthir_ESO

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.

Melt/DK char in signature ftl

Juraigr

Armitas wrote: »

Wow. I am amazed that we are having an informative discussion on the PvP forums over a class skill. It's like I entered an alternate universe or something. Well done.

Here is my perspective as a DK.

I have no ranged damagers. If I want to do anything I have to rush right into the thick of my enemy which consequently will draw all of their fire. If I lose I get a blooper reel for Agrippa, if I win I get a 1vX video.

When I charge I charge for the weakest cluster because in about 20 seconds I'm going to need some resources. I can enter this fight, but I can't leave it easily. I can't stealth away or bolt away. I'm out here in the middle of the enemy burning half my resources resisting the focus fire and the other half trying to kill something.

So I push into the weakest cluster. My entire mentality is to lock down my enemies to build ultimate through pbaoe, while focus firing the enemy that is most likely to die. So lets say I kill my enemy or two. Now what? I can't leave this battle field, it's a one way trip. I can either die or be allowed to continue based on my success. I succeeded in my first push and now I am rewarded with a chance to continue. My hope is that the rest of my faction will see my push and support me at range or push with me. If my faction does not support me I will die.

Love this post sooo true

Braidas

everyone has access to mist form/maneuvers to gtfo of dodge

Ifthir_ESO

Sanct16 wrote: »

Nightblade: Siphoning Attacks never lets them run out of resources as it restores incredible amounts of resources. In addition to that they have 8% more Magicka and more effective potions.

I wish I could flag this as misinfo because it is blatantly untrue.

You also pay a significantly DPS reduction to enable it.

Ifthir_ESO

Rylana wrote: »

I am going to play devils advocate here.

DK char in signature <> devil's advocate.

It means you are biased by definition.

Rylana

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

I am going to play devils advocate here.

DK char in signature <> devil's advocate.

It means you are biased by definition.

Clearly you miss the part where as DKs we are best equipped to know our own limitations and put a stop to the widespread lies about what are class is actually capable of.

We are not gods, we do not have built in I-win buttons, and we are no stronger than any other class played well.

We have a few situations (that seem to happen an awful lot, because people just have to charge in a blob right at a DK firespamming AOE) where we can really get a groove going on, but the moment our OPFOR spreads out and thins, we weaken.

The trick to beating a DK? Never give him multiple targets to draw on in the same exact spot. Once you figure this part out, its as simple as wearing him down.

Ill take note that in your sig you indicate youre a nightblade, guess what, I have one too. In fact I play all four classes at vet level, does that still make me biased?

to me it just sounds like you have a classist axe to grind, and with me youre making a huge mistake with that considering I play them all.

shidoq8

Dear Eso community,

Every skilled DK player will make dks look op, they are not.
Every skilled Temp will make Temps look, op they are not.
Every skilled nb or sorc will also make them look op, they are not.

When you encounter skilled players learn from them and dont ask zos to nerf them.

Yours truly
Shido.

Rylana

Armitas wrote: »

Wow. I am amazed that we are having an informative discussion on the PvP forums over a class skill. It's like I entered an alternate universe or something. Well done.

Here is my perspective as a DK.

I have no ranged damagers. If I want to do anything I have to rush right into the thick of my enemy which consequently will draw all of their fire. If I lose I get a blooper reel for Agrippa, if I win I get a 1vX video.

When I charge, I charge for the weakest cluster because in about 20 seconds I'm going to need some resources. I can enter this fight, but I can't leave it easily. I can't stealth away or bolt away. I'm out here in the middle of the enemy burning half my resources resisting the focus fire and the other half trying to kill something.

So I push into the weakest cluster. My entire mentality is to lock down my enemies to build ultimate through pbaoe, while focus firing the enemy that is most likely to die. So lets say I kill my enemy or two. Now what? I can't leave this battle field, it's a one way trip. I can either die or be allowed to continue based on my success. I succeeded in my first push and now I am rewarded with a chance to continue. My hope is that the rest of my faction will see my push and support me at range or push with me. If my faction does not support me I will die.

Well said and spot on. Though me personally I like to hit the strongest spot and cause panic and chaos by firebombing, but thats personal preference. I tend to die a lot doing this actually, but unless the OPFOR is extremely disciplined or has a lot of healing power, I tend to get several kills and throw their whole gameplan out the window for my allies to mop up.

Its actually kind of fun, kamikaze bombing runs.

(Yeah im the guy that will charge No Mercy or Hijinx and be the first one on top of them blowing all my magicka and dying gloriously, just because I can) Actually works sometimes too, catches them napping.

Lfehova

You have to look at this from a different perspective jack.

People who play ESO are so obsessed with each class being able to perform each role equally, but that is just unrealistic short of giving each class the same skills and passives.

Battle roar is definitely a strong passive. But I would argue that passive combined with reflective scales is one of the only reasons DKs can tank so well. DKs are meant to be the primary tank class, and to be the best at it.

Nightblades can rival a DK tank, see krim's video. Templars can definitely rival a DK tank with blazing shield. Sorcs cannot lol.

But a DK cannot heal anywhere close to the same as a Templar. Or even a sorc or NB.

A DK has no executes, like a NB or sorc. They have no escapes like cloak or bolt. They have no dark exchange like sorcs. Or siphoning attacks like NB. Or repentance like Templars.

Yes battle roar is strong. And it can be utilized for some strong builds. But so are other classes in their own style of play. The problem with balance comes when people somehow get this messed up idea that each class should be on par with each other class at every role. That is unrealistic.

Would any sorc trade bolt escape for battle roar?

Any NB trade siphoning attacks for battle roar?

Any Templar trade blazing shield for battle roar?

I'd gladly trade my battle roar for any of those skills.

Epsilon_Echo

Rylana wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

I am going to play devils advocate here.

DK char in signature <> devil's advocate.

It means you are biased by definition.

Clearly you miss the part where as DKs we are best equipped to know our own limitations and put a stop to the widespread lies about what are class is actually capable of.

We are not gods, we do not have built in I-win buttons, and we are no stronger than any other class played well.

We have a few situations (that seem to happen an awful lot, because people just have to charge in a blob right at a DK firespamming AOE) where we can really get a groove going on, but the moment our OPFOR spreads out and thins, we weaken.

The trick to beating a DK? Never give him multiple targets to draw on in the same exact spot. Once you figure this part out, its as simple as wearing him down.

Ill take note that in your sig you indicate youre a nightblade, guess what, I have one too. In fact I play all four classes at vet level, does that still make me biased?

to me it just sounds like you have a classist axe to grind, and with me youre making a huge mistake with that considering I play them all.

This.

My primary (and first) is a DK but I have VR toons in NB and Sorc as well. At PvE it is my most powerful toon and I have taken a very large amount of time to make is so. Despite all my efforts my Sorc is still my best PvP toon. For me its about a 7.0 average KDR (DK) vs 75+ KDR (Sorc). Does that mean mean one is impossibly more OP than another? No, just means that despite the fact that my DK is my favorite toon, my natural combat instincts lean toward a play style that is better fit by Sorc builds.

I have personally seen 6 people since 1.3 that are DK and can chain ults in a constant manner. Via youtube and web research I can find another dozen. At least one of them has replied to this thread. I HAVE however seen more Sorcs than I can count chain ults.

So despite what you feel about DKs I feel its very safe to say were literally talking about 5% or less of the DK PvP population who are running these insane builds in PVP. If these build were so incredibly easy then they would be everywhere. I would chalk that up to skill over class power any day ok the week.

If you want to talk about the problems listed in this thread then keep it strictly to combat frenzy and multi-ult builds. I don't believe that DKs by their nature have much to do with the problem based solely on their class.

Rylana

Siphoning strikes really does need some love though, Hov. The damage reduction pretty much makes the skill itself pretty pointless. You can do more mediocre DPS for a little longer.

Its either heavy burst, or medium over time dps depending on that skill toggle. In the end its really only good for a nightblade healer build.

Otherwise I agree with you.