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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683901

Battle Roar - Is this why DK's are thought to be so strong?

JackDaniell
JackDaniell
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Hello everyone, just a topic that has fought my interest as of lately. Battle Roar, for those of you who may not know, is a Dragon Knight passive ability that returns recourses on ultimate cast, according to the initial cost of the ultimate.

Tool Tip: Battle Roar

Restore Health, Magicka, and Stamina. Restore amount increased by 70% of the ultimate cost.

Now the Base value restored for ANY ultimate casted is 700 Magicka, Health and Stamina at level 50. This is then increased by 70% of ultimate cost BEFORE and ultimate cost reduction effects.

For example: Standard of Might - Cost 200 ultimate

700 base value + 140 (70% of 200) Health, Magicka, and Stamina.

Devouring Swarm - Cost 200 ultimate (can have cost reduced by many methods but this does not effect return with battle roar)

700 base value + 140 (70% of 200) Health, Magicka, and Stamina.

What does this mean for Dragonknights? Every time they cast an ultimate ability they chug a tri pot (one of the host potions in the game - Restores around 700 Magicka, Health and Stamina). A pretty dam good passive if I don't say so myself.

So how much of an effect does this have? Well in small scale combat, not allot. If a DK cannot build ultimate quickly this is still a great passive, but its nothing to brag about. What about if a DK had access to AOE dot skills? AOE control skills? and could hit many many targets with them? Thats a recipe for allot of ultimate gain. Lets say that dragon knight can cast an ultimate like devouring swarm 3 times every minute (a low number for 1 minute of combat of that scale). That DK is essentially drinking 3 extra tri pots in that minuite.

A good sustaining build has an average stat restoration of about 4000 of each stat a minute while not using potions. That means if that DK gets 3 ultimates off he gets an extra 2520 of each stat onto of that. Now lets think about the DKs we know in PvP, maybe we are one. Do they cast their ultimate only 3 times a minute? Chances are no. The DK builds that are viewed as some of the best can almost indefinitely sustain devouring swarm while in the aforementioned combat conditions (Thats 1 ultimate cast every 6 seconds assuming they can generate the ultimate).

So now lets get to the reason as why battle roar may be the single factor that causes a Dragon Knight to seem so strong. Yes they have very good skills, but so do other classes. But the right combination of these skills can be used to generate allot of ultimate (Talons, Inhale, Reflective Scales) And then if a kill is made more ultimate is rewarded (depending the the rank of the player of course). This then essentially makes a Dragon Knight much more powerful as they have more opponents to fight. But when they fight alone they are for the most part on par.

Now I hope this provides valuable insight as to the appearance of a Dragon Knight being the best class in PvP, especially when outnumbered. In theory, a DK could invest all their gear and stats into increased damage and cost reduction, and sustain themselves in outnumbered combat relying almost solely on Battle Roar. Perhaps this was intend by Zenimax, perhaps it was not. But NO other class can restore recourses like this when in disadvantageous (number wise) combat. Now it makes sense why a DK an block for days while getting slammed on by a zerg.

If you want to see yourself watch any Dragon Knight video on the internet and look at the recourse management. To paraphrase myself, perhaps this should be an issue looked at by Zenimax, perhaps it is the way they intended it. That I do not know, but let me know what you all think.

Please let me know your opinion to @ZOS_BrianWheeler !

Current discussion: Perhaps a cool down on battle roar would be balancing?

Edit: Incorrectly quoted base return value as 600 when it was in fact 700
Edited by JackDaniell on October 20, 2014 11:28PM
Ebonheart Templar

www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • Asgari
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    Are people not aware dragon nights are tanks? They are intended to take on 1vX and CC large gourps. Each class has their defined role to play. Battle roar is meant to make DKs a tank. There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.

    The nerf requests and requests for ZOS to fix or look into things that work fine are becoming rediculous. Learn to play your class and play it well. Not every class can be a tank.
    Formerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
    Princess Asgari | Sorc
    Asgari | NB
    -Asgari | Stamplar
    Ariana Kishi | DK | True Liberator of Haderus
    Banner Down!
    No Mercy
    Youtube: Asgari
  • BEZDNA
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    Ofc Battle Roar is very good passive, perhapse one of the best, but from my XP NB in right build can have much more sustained and can build ultimates much faster. So it's defenatly not the Battle Roar issue. First reason - it's players skill, second - it's overpoverd skills that you alredy mentioned - devouring swarm and combat frenzy.
    Edited by BEZDNA on October 20, 2014 8:05AM
  • JackDaniell
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    Are people not aware dragon nights are tanks? They are intended to take on 1vX and CC large gourps. Each class has their defined role to play. Battle roar is meant to make DKs a tank. There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.

    The nerf requests and requests for ZOS to fix or look into things that work fine are becoming rediculous. Learn to play your class and play it well. Not every class can be a tank.

    Hello, yes I believe you are on a correct assumption that dragon knights were intended to be tanks. I do however disagree that not all lasses can be tanks. As an avid Templar player I know full well that a templar can very much so be a tank.

    But I think you are misinterpreting what this thread is about. Battle roar has to do with recourse management, which is an element to all play styles and not limited to being a tank alone. A DK is given massive pools of recourses because of this ultimate based on the situation, that not only allows the DK to survive a 1vX situation but to also win. How does this compare to 1vX with other classes? Well for one all other classes share similar ultimate gains depending on their builds. But the key is the recourse management. A Templar for example could use AOE and devouring swarm to deal very similar damage as the DK, BUT the Templar will not get the effects of a tri pot every time they activate their most powerful skill.

    Their-fore: The mathematical significance of battle roar and the related recourse management MUCH favours the DK winning that fight as opposed to a Templar in the same position.

    So is this a conscious choice by Zenimax? By your statement do you think that a DK should be a Tank and yes Battle Roar which provides them with MUCH (I emphasize this because the recourse return can easily double that of another class that is built to sustain recourses) better recourse management than any other class works as intended?
    BEZDNA wrote: »
    Ofc Battle Roar is very good passive, perhapse one of the best, but from my XP NB in right build can have much more sustained and can build ultimates much faster. So it's defenatly not the Battle Roar issue. First reason - it's players skill, second - it's overpoverd skills that you alredy mentioned - devouring swarm and combat frenzy.

    Again the issue addressed in the thread is not ultimate generation, as all classes can do that about at the same rate. The issue is the recourses awarded when the ultimate is activated (which can be easily argued that they can be used to build more ultimate as more recourses are available).
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • Sanct16
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    Well, you are on the one hand right about Battle Roar being very helpful for resource management. On the other hand you are totally wrong about the other classes. Yes, they don't get resources for their Ultimate. Instead they have other strong skills and passives.

    Templar: They get Health and Stamina for every dead person. For free. So if they kill enough or have allies die next to them, they probably run far harder out of Stamina. Moreover they have a costreduction passive, helping them to maintain resources.

    Nightblade: Siphoning Attacks never lets them run out of resources as it restores incredible amounts of resources. In addition to that they have 8% more Magicka and more effective potions.

    Sorceror: Playing with Absorption Field you get quite alot of Magicka and Health back. Moreover they have 15% reduced ultimate cost, so they can use their ultimate more frequently than other classes, and have some bonus Magicka regeneration. Dark Exchange gives Magicka and Health back in case they run oom. Can be channeled for 1-2 secs while in Clouding Swarm for example.
    - EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
    AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
    EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
    AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
    AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
    EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
    AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
    AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
    EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
    EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
    DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
    DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB

    >320.000.000 AP
  • Maulkin
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    Battle Roar on it's own does not a beast make. It's a very very good bonus to have when activating an ultie, don't get me wrong, but the issue is for me with the ability to drop ulties so often.

    In PvE it's not really overpowered. Even in PvP if you don't have a Combat Frenzy II, it's nothing special.

    However, if you have a high ranked DK with Combat Frenzy II fighting scrubs, he can drop 5-6 ulties in a fight.

    So is the issue with Battle Roar, or with dropping 6 ulties in a fight? I'll let you make your mind up with that one
    EU | PC | AD
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Dk and Templar in general have a lot of sustain against greater numbers because they cannot up and run from a fight. If nbs and sorcs could sustain against similar numbers (and you can see how powerful it was with sorcs and shield stacking) they'd be crazy in pvp. I'm sure some nb will come in here and tell me dark cloak never works and it never saves him. I have an nb I pvp with so I know that's complete ***. I can't stay and fight like my dk.. But I sure as hell live longer in fights because I can escape most of the time
    Edited by Xsorus on October 20, 2014 9:52AM
  • JackDaniell
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    Sanct16 wrote: »
    Well, you are on the one hand right about Battle Roar being very helpful for resource management. On the other hand you are totally wrong about the other classes. Yes, they don't get resources for their Ultimate. Instead they have other strong skills and passives.

    Templar: They get Health and Stamina for every dead person. For free. So if they kill enough or have allies die next to them, they probably run far harder out of Stamina. Moreover they have a costreduction passive, helping them to maintain resources.

    Nightblade: Siphoning Attacks never lets them run out of resources as it restores incredible amounts of resources. In addition to that they have 8% more Magicka and more effective potions.

    Sorceror: Playing with Absorption Field you get quite alot of Magicka and Health back. Moreover they have 15% reduced ultimate cost, so they can use their ultimate more frequently than other classes, and have some bonus Magicka regeneration. Dark Exchange gives Magicka and Health back in case they run oom. Can be channeled for 1-2 secs while in Clouding Swarm for example.

    You have very strong and valid points with this statement. And I agree that every class is given tools to manage recourses (Repentance for the Templar and Siphoning strikes for the Nightblade are not a passives, but they do still contribute to management). But in the grand scheme of PvP how do these compare to battle roar? Battle roar allows the DK to continue to build more ultimate with the recourses given to them, do you think other classes could manage the same?
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • JackDaniell
    JackDaniell
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    Battle Roar on it's own does not a beast make. It's a very very good bonus to have when activating an ultie, don't get me wrong, but the issue is for me with the ability to drop ulties so often.

    In PvE it's not really overpowered. Even in PvP if you don't have a Combat Frenzy II, it's nothing special.

    However, if you have a high ranked DK with Combat Frenzy II fighting scrubs, he can drop 5-6 ulties in a fight.

    So is the issue with Battle Roar, or with dropping 6 ulties in a fight? I'll let you make your mind up with that one

    As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes.

    As for my mind this topic does not effect me significantly, it was just something I had noticed while watching some DK PvP videos that I believe could be open to discussion.
    [...]

    Im not exactly sure what you are referring to in this post but I cannot give you any feedback.

    [Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
    Edited by ZOS_UlyssesW on October 20, 2014 2:48PM
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • Sanct16
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    I think Templars can pull off complarable results as a Dk, although you probably see it happen less often as most Templars play as Healers and not 1vX. But with Blazing Shield and Devouring Swarm a Templar can do very well in 1vX.

    If you play on EU servers you might have seen Cpt-Capslock tanking 20 enemies without any problems for example.

    Sorcerors and Nightblades usually play with the Clouding morph, so they are less visible but still they get good results.

    Sorcerors are uber in farming noobs with no impenetrable (which is a really big amount of ppl actually) with Crit Surge and harder hitting Impulse (which returns Magicka on each kill aswell).
    Nightblades can do very well with Sap Essence healing them and some crazy numbers on Clouding because of class passives. One of our guild NBs is able to get 700-800 crits on Batswarm.

    So to sum this up, I think every class can get comparable results as a DK, although you might not see it as often for said reasons.
    - EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
    AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
    EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
    AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
    AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
    EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
    AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
    AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
    EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
    EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
    DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
    DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB

    >320.000.000 AP
  • Xsorus
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    In regards to resource managent nothing competes with nightblades
  • JackDaniell
    JackDaniell
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    Dk and Templar in general have a lot of sustain against greater numbers because they cannot up and run from a fight. If nbs and sorcs could sustain against similar numbers (and you can see how powerful it was with sorcs and shield stacking) they'd be crazy in pvp. I'm sure some nb will come in here and tell me dark cloak never works and it never saves him. I have an nb I pvp with so I know that's complete ***. I can't stay and fight like my dk.. But I sure as hell live longer in fights because I can escape most of the time

    So are you suggesting that sustain for the class as a whole is more of a pre-determined class choice option? For example, I play Templar and that means that my Templar passives and skills as a whole will allow me to sustain myself better than a Nightblade in most PvP situations.

    If so I agree with that, but I interpret it in a different way. Yes DK's and Templars are not designed to escape as well as Sorcs or Nightblades, but they still can escape if you design them in that way. However, in the recourse management department I do not believe a Templar would fair nearly as well as a DK as the 1 vs ratio began to get higher. Yes Templars are very strong and durable, but the key difference is that as the number of people increase, the effectiveness of a build that feeds ultimate off of them increases as well. Even more so for the DK as they receive huge amounts of recourses to rise up to this more daunting situation where the Templar will not.
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .

    Stated above does not make it right. Your opinion, but I disagree. The synergy of certain passives can make a combination powerful without each one individually being OP.

    As I said, in PvE or PvP without Combat Frenzy you don't have access to Battle Roar so often so you don't have resources back so often.

    If the issue is Battle Roar alone and it was removed, then PvE DKs and low ranked PvP DKs would have less resource recovery than other classes who have abilities rather than passives, to give them resources.
    EU | PC | AD
  • JackDaniell
    JackDaniell
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    Sanct16 wrote: »
    I think Templars can pull off complarable results as a Dk, although you probably see it happen less often as most Templars play as Healers and not 1vX. But with Blazing Shield and Devouring Swarm a Templar can do very well in 1vX.

    If you play on EU servers you might have seen Cpt-Capslock tanking 20 enemies without any problems for example.

    Sorcerors and Nightblades usually play with the Clouding morph, so they are less visible but still they get good results.

    Sorcerors are uber in farming noobs with no impenetrable (which is a really big amount of ppl actually) with Crit Surge and harder hitting Impulse (which returns Magicka on each kill aswell).
    Nightblades can do very well with Sap Essence healing them and some crazy numbers on Clouding because of class passives. One of our guild NBs is able to get 700-800 crits on Batswarm.

    So to sum this up, I think every class can get comparable results as a DK, although you might not see it as often for said reasons.

    While you have a strong opinion I do not agree. I believe that if that was the case then we would see even numbers of all classes taking on large groups at a time, not a majority being DK accompanied by a small party of the exceptional from the other classes.
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • JackDaniell
    JackDaniell
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    In regards to resource managent nothing competes with nightblades

    Perhaps you are right, I would have to review a few videos of a Nightblade fighting the same numbers as a DK while sustaining the recourses to do so using siphoning stokes (I am assuming). But I do find this statement unlikely given the scenario as a DK could easily exceed 10000 Magicka, Stamina and Health returned in 1 minute of ultimate generating combat.
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • pmn100b16_ESO
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    Dk and Templar in general have a lot of sustain against greater numbers because they cannot up and run from a fight. If nbs and sorcs could sustain against similar numbers (and you can see how powerful it was with sorcs and shield stacking) they'd be crazy in pvp. I'm sure some nb will come in here and tell me dark cloak never works and it never saves him. I have an nb I pvp with so I know that's complete ***. I can't stay and fight like my dk.. But I sure as hell live longer in fights because I can escape most of the time

    We're talking about 1vX here? If so I very very rarely am able to escape multiple foes using cloak. It continuously breaks. What are you doing with cloak that allows you to escape a 1vX situation?
  • Prokonto
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    thats why i allways use Shooting Star with my AoE bar as it cost 250 ulti^^
    BOOOM:P
  • JackDaniell
    JackDaniell
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    As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .

    Stated above does not make it right. Your opinion, but I disagree. The synergy of certain passives can make a combination powerful without each one individually being OP.

    As I said, in PvE or PvP without Combat Frenzy you don't have access to Battle Roar so often so you don't have resources back so often.

    If the issue is Battle Roar alone and it was removed, then PvE DKs and low ranked PvP DKs would have less resource recovery than other classes who have abilities rather than passives, to give them resources.

    Good points, a very strong opinion. For me I think that the access to battle roar mixed with devouring swarm can begin to push the setup over the edge. In ideal conditions (Combat Frenzy ect) the build will perform at it highest. Do you think at this point the build performs to well?
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • Mumyo
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    I guess the big difference is that its pretty easy for a dk in comparison to other classes. Those skills are common and used in any setup a dk plays. I never met one that doesnt use Talons just for instance.

    Mostly i think people need to avoid running into banners but they simply stop using their brains as soon as there is a banner... maybe its because u can talk to the banner somehow since last patch. Maybe they just want to negotiate :smile:
  • pmn100b16_ESO
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    Are people not aware dragon nights are tanks? They are intended to take on 1vX and CC large gourps. Each class has their defined role to play. Battle roar is meant to make DKs a tank. There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.

    The nerf requests and requests for ZOS to fix or look into things that work fine are becoming rediculous. Learn to play your class and play it well. Not every class can be a tank.

    This may be so in PvE. In PvP its all about striving for near balance between classes. And in my experience of MMOs, being a competitive tank comes at great cost to damage output. This is not so with ESO as we're all aware the DK is perhaps the highest/2nd highest dpser in the game. Great dps and great survivability. All these vids posted show that clearly. It has very little to do with other classes needing to L2P as I'm sure you're aware.

    Its in no ones interest to have a single class outperform any of the others because many people will just stop playing. How fun will PvP be when 80% of players are the same class?
  • Xsorus
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    Dk and Templar in general have a lot of sustain against greater numbers because they cannot up and run from a fight. If nbs and sorcs could sustain against similar numbers (and you can see how powerful it was with sorcs and shield stacking) they'd be crazy in pvp. I'm sure some nb will come in here and tell me dark cloak never works and it never saves him. I have an nb I pvp with so I know that's complete ***. I can't stay and fight like my dk.. But I sure as hell live longer in fights because I can escape most of the time

    We're talking about 1vX here? If so I very very rarely am able to escape multiple foes using cloak. It continuously breaks. What are you doing with cloak that allows you to escape a 1vX situation?

    Oh don't get me wrong, there are some fights I cannot get away from, but usually I just spam it, and if I really wanna get away I pop invis speed pot with it (which I was accused of speed hacking by some other yard nightblade) regardless I get away from overwhelming odds on my nb all day long where on my dk if be screwed
  • pmn100b16_ESO
    pmn100b16_ESO
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    Dk and Templar in general have a lot of sustain against greater numbers because they cannot up and run from a fight. If nbs and sorcs could sustain against similar numbers (and you can see how powerful it was with sorcs and shield stacking) they'd be crazy in pvp. I'm sure some nb will come in here and tell me dark cloak never works and it never saves him. I have an nb I pvp with so I know that's complete ***. I can't stay and fight like my dk.. But I sure as hell live longer in fights because I can escape most of the time

    We're talking about 1vX here? If so I very very rarely am able to escape multiple foes using cloak. It continuously breaks. What are you doing with cloak that allows you to escape a 1vX situation?

    Oh don't get me wrong, there are some fights I cannot get away from, but usually I just spam it, and if I really wanna get away I pop invis speed pot with it (which I was accused of speed hacking by some other yard nightblade) regardless I get away from overwhelming odds on my nb all day long where on my dk if be screwed

    Yeah I've noticed spamming it can sometimes keep you stealthed after the initial couple of breaks. I'll try the invisi pots too, although its a bit stupid needing to use an invisi pot when you're suppose to have a working skill that does the same thing.

    My issue is that the NBs only escape tool, which is being stated as a means of balance with templer/DK survivabilty, and on par with Sorc Bolt Escape, seems very easily countered if any of the players attacking you have tab targeted you or simply pop a detect potion.
    Edited by pmn100b16_ESO on October 20, 2014 10:38AM
  • Maulkin
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    As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .

    Stated above does not make it right. Your opinion, but I disagree. The synergy of certain passives can make a combination powerful without each one individually being OP.

    As I said, in PvE or PvP without Combat Frenzy you don't have access to Battle Roar so often so you don't have resources back so often.

    If the issue is Battle Roar alone and it was removed, then PvE DKs and low ranked PvP DKs would have less resource recovery than other classes who have abilities rather than passives, to give them resources.

    Good points, a very strong opinion. For me I think that the access to battle roar mixed with devouring swarm can begin to push the setup over the edge. In ideal conditions (Combat Frenzy ect) the build will perform at it highest. Do you think at this point the build performs to well?

    In short, yes it does.

    But there's a third element at play here which is Bat Swarm which is
    a) cheap
    b) generates ult like a mudafucka cause it's a PBAoE that also allows you to cast another PBAoE while channelling
    c) gives Battler Roar as if it's a 250 ult ability when in fact with reductions it costs 150. Which arguably is a bug

    As a traditional non-Vamp DK, running Banner and Dragon Leap as ults, I find statements like "DK could easily exceed 10000 Magicka, Stamina and Health returned in 1 minute of ultimate generating combat" insane, borderline offensive.

    Decomposing these numbers, I get around 2k resources per minute on average by my normal regen. The rest 8k you claim, would have to be recovered by Battle Roar at ~750 per Roar. 60/(8k/750) = 5.45, or an ultie every 5.5 secs.

    Even with Combat Frenzy II and Bat Swarm it's debatable whether you could hit those numbers, let alone easily exceed them as you say. Adding hyperbole won't help your argument.

    Anyhow. What I'm saying is, we have to look at ult genereation in PvP. If people can string ulties together (which they can though not to the degree you're describing), that strikes me as more out of order than getting resources back on ult activation.

    The issue is mostly with batswarm too. I see Sorcs chaining bats one after the other, but they can't do that with Negate. Not since the Streak nerf at least. Because bats are both cheaper and they generate ult much faster.

    DKs of course see more benefit out of all this, but we have to identify and decompose the combination of things that lead to this build being so sustainable, before we attack individual abilities or passives which would result in other builds being wrecked.
    EU | PC | AD
  • Rylana
    Rylana
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ... sigh
    @rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
    Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
    Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
    Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
    Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin
  • JackDaniell
    JackDaniell
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    Are people not aware dragon nights are tanks? They are intended to take on 1vX and CC large gourps. Each class has their defined role to play. Battle roar is meant to make DKs a tank. There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.

    The nerf requests and requests for ZOS to fix or look into things that work fine are becoming rediculous. Learn to play your class and play it well. Not every class can be a tank.

    This may be so in PvE. In PvP its all about striving for near balance between classes. And in my experience of MMOs, being a competitive tank comes at great cost to damage output. This is not so with ESO as we're all aware the DK is perhaps the highest/2nd highest dpser in the game. Great dps and great survivability. All these vids posted show that clearly. It has very little to do with other classes needing to L2P as I'm sure you're aware.

    Its in no ones interest to have a single class outperform any of the others because many people will just stop playing. How fun will PvP be when 80% of players are the same class?

    Great insight in this post. To touch on a few issues, the meta DK PvP build is not a tank in my opinion. It is a AOE DPS build. It simply is able to tank because the DPS it can output directly feeds recourse management that is required for the build to tank. So its basically a "feed" build that can continue to stay alive as long as it has more to kill. This is a direct result of the battle roar passive performing extremely well in outnumbered combat. Now I do not believe that one class excelling much more than others as it becomes more outnumbered is PvP balance in any way. But it is not for me to determine this, it is up to the people who make those executive decisions. So perhaps they do not agree with me.
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • Juraigr
    Juraigr
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    Are people not aware dragon nights are tanks? They are intended to take on 1vX and CC large gourps. Each class has their defined role to play. Battle roar is meant to make DKs a tank. There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.

    The nerf requests and requests for ZOS to fix or look into things that work fine are becoming rediculous. Learn to play your class and play it well. Not every class can be a tank.

    This may be so in PvE. In PvP its all about striving for near balance between classes. And in my experience of MMOs, being a competitive tank comes at great cost to damage output. This is not so with ESO as we're all aware the DK is perhaps the highest/2nd highest dpser in the game. Great dps and great survivability. All these vids posted show that clearly. It has very little to do with other classes needing to L2P as I'm sure you're aware.

    Its in no ones interest to have a single class outperform any of the others because many people will just stop playing. How fun will PvP be when 80% of players are the same class?

    Great insight in this post. To touch on a few issues, the meta DK PvP build is not a tank in my opinion. It is a AOE DPS build. It simply is able to tank because the DPS it can output directly feeds recourse management that is required for the build to tank. So its basically a "feed" build that can continue to stay alive as long as it has more to kill. This is a direct result of the battle roar passive performing extremely well in outnumbered combat. Now I do not believe that one class excelling much more than others as it becomes more outnumbered is PvP balance in any way. But it is not for me to determine this, it is up to the people who make those executive decisions. So perhaps they do not agree with me.

    This, most if not all PvP DKs rely on fools feeding us ulti, as a self appointed pyromancer on eu haderus, I once dropped 3 banners in 4 secs because people kept running into my oil with a standard there.

    DK have no resource management outside of dropping ultimates, nerfing this would be unfair imo, it works as intended and should not be messed with

    Edit.Sanct sux ;p
    Edited by Juraigr on October 20, 2014 11:05AM
    EU Worst DK , Best DK Singapore and NA also known as 'Special Snowflake'

    Jurra - V14 Dragonknight Rank 38 August Palatine
    Jurra Hex - V14 Sorcerer Rank 25 Colonel [SEMI-RETIRED until Zos fix this BS sorc nonsense]

    LA DK Still OP :P

    One of the Three Light Armor DK's

    #200StandardOfMightFFS
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    #RevertUltiGain

    #FixMoltenWhip

    Grinding my way to August Palatine finally made it, still holding a torch for eso so now imma filthy casual
  • JackDaniell
    JackDaniell
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    As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .

    Stated above does not make it right. Your opinion, but I disagree. The synergy of certain passives can make a combination powerful without each one individually being OP.

    As I said, in PvE or PvP without Combat Frenzy you don't have access to Battle Roar so often so you don't have resources back so often.

    If the issue is Battle Roar alone and it was removed, then PvE DKs and low ranked PvP DKs would have less resource recovery than other classes who have abilities rather than passives, to give them resources.

    Good points, a very strong opinion. For me I think that the access to battle roar mixed with devouring swarm can begin to push the setup over the edge. In ideal conditions (Combat Frenzy ect) the build will perform at it highest. Do you think at this point the build performs to well?

    In short, yes it does.

    But there's a third element at play here which is Bat Swarm which is
    a) cheap
    b) generates ult like a mudafucka cause it's a PBAoE that also allows you to cast another PBAoE while channelling
    c) gives Battler Roar as if it's a 250 ult ability when in fact with reductions it costs 150. Which arguably is a bug

    As a traditional non-Vamp DK, running Banner and Dragon Leap as ults, I find statements like "DK could easily exceed 10000 Magicka, Stamina and Health returned in 1 minute of ultimate generating combat" insane, borderline offensive.

    Decomposing these numbers, I get around 2k resources per minute on average by my normal regen. The rest 8k you claim, would have to be recovered by Battle Roar at ~750 per Roar. 60/(8k/750) = 5.45, or an ultie every 5.5 secs.

    Even with Combat Frenzy II and Bat Swarm it's debatable whether you could hit those numbers, let alone easily exceed them as you say. Adding hyperbole won't help your argument.

    Anyhow. What I'm saying is, we have to look at ult genereation in PvP. If people can string ulties together (which they can though not to the degree you're describing), that strikes me as more out of order than getting resources back on ult activation.

    The issue is mostly with batswarm too. I see Sorcs chaining bats one after the other, but they can't do that with Negate. Not since the Streak nerf at least. Because bats are both cheaper and they generate ult much faster.

    DKs of course see more benefit out of all this, but we have to identify and decompose the combination of things that lead to this build being so sustainable, before we attack individual abilities or passives which would result in other builds being wrecked.

    As a disclaimer: The base return is 700 on battle roar, not 600 as I had incorrectly quoted.

    Batswarm aside as an ability (it does however have many drawbacks) Sustain of the numbers I quoted is quite possible.

    Assuming you have 100 Magicka and Stamina return every 2 seconds.

    100 x 30 = 3000 Magicka and Stamina a minute.
    Batswarm - Base 700 + 140 (70% of 200) = 840 ultimate per cast.

    To achieve exactly 10000 Magicka and Stamina return (assuming non is wasted) in 1 minute a DK would need to use batswarm (6 second duration) once every 8.33 seconds.

    Now I have played as a vampire Templar and I know from experience when hitting 4 or more targets it is very possible to sustain multiple swarms in a row (a swarm every 6 seconds). The limiting factor for me as a Templar however was that after about 4-5 swarms I would run out of magicka to continue to deal damage with and build ultimate with.

    That is the key to the argument. The DK can just keep going where EVERY other class in the situation could not simply because battle roar over performs in these situations to, as you quoted the numbers, an insane degree.
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • pmn100b16_ESO
    pmn100b16_ESO
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    Mumyo wrote: »
    I guess the big difference is that its pretty easy for a dk in comparison to other classes. Those skills are common and used in any setup a dk plays. I never met one that doesnt use Talons just for instance.

    Mostly i think people need to avoid running into banners but they simply stop using their brains as soon as there is a banner... maybe its because u can talk to the banner somehow since last patch. Maybe they just want to negotiate :smile:

    The problem I have with talons is once you break it, you're often immediately talon'd again, so you break again, only to be talon'd again. No other CC mechanic works like these roots. You should be able to be immune at least from the root after first break. But then you can't roll anymore, so you're left with blocking, then your stamina runs dry so you're left with shield spamming, and then you die. All the time you're being hit for 400-500+ with flame lash.
    Edited by pmn100b16_ESO on October 20, 2014 11:10AM
  • JackDaniell
    JackDaniell
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    It
    Juraigr wrote: »
    Are people not aware dragon nights are tanks? They are intended to take on 1vX and CC large gourps. Each class has their defined role to play. Battle roar is meant to make DKs a tank. There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.

    The nerf requests and requests for ZOS to fix or look into things that work fine are becoming rediculous. Learn to play your class and play it well. Not every class can be a tank.

    This may be so in PvE. In PvP its all about striving for near balance between classes. And in my experience of MMOs, being a competitive tank comes at great cost to damage output. This is not so with ESO as we're all aware the DK is perhaps the highest/2nd highest dpser in the game. Great dps and great survivability. All these vids posted show that clearly. It has very little to do with other classes needing to L2P as I'm sure you're aware.

    Its in no ones interest to have a single class outperform any of the others because many people will just stop playing. How fun will PvP be when 80% of players are the same class?

    Great insight in this post. To touch on a few issues, the meta DK PvP build is not a tank in my opinion. It is a AOE DPS build. It simply is able to tank because the DPS it can output directly feeds recourse management that is required for the build to tank. So its basically a "feed" build that can continue to stay alive as long as it has more to kill. This is a direct result of the battle roar passive performing extremely well in outnumbered combat. Now I do not believe that one class excelling much more than others as it becomes more outnumbered is PvP balance in any way. But it is not for me to determine this, it is up to the people who make those executive decisions. So perhaps they do not agree with me.

    This, most if not all PvP DKs rely on fools feeding us ulti, as a self appointed pyromancer on eu haderus, I once dropped 3 banners in 4 secs because people kept running into my oil with a standard there.

    DK have no resource management outside of dropping ultimates, nerfing this would be unfair imo, it works as intended and should not be messed with

    Edit.Sanct sux ;p

    Interesting perspective. Dragon Knights do however have other recourse management skills.

    Helping hands: Restore 5% Stamina when activating an Earthern Heart ability
    Green Dragon Blood: Increase Stamina recovery by 30%

    In comparison to Templar resource management abilities and passives this is fairly similar (Templars have Restoring Aura and its morphs as well as restoring spirit - reduce all costs by 4%). Channeled focus could be included but an abysmal recourse management skill.

    As for a nerf to Battle Roar, I think this would be a very balancing idea, as if a DK uses one ultimate per minute the return far outdoes what a Templars recourse management is like. Perhaps something like a cool down on the passive (1 minute for example) would put it more on par with other classes management while not allowing it to over perform to the extent it is currently. This way it would not effect a DK build that is not over centralized around ultimate generation much at all. But in its current state, it is defensively rewarding DK's for being AOE DPS to the point that people view that build as a tank build.
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • Rylana
    Rylana
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    I am going to play devils advocate here.

    Nightblades and Sorcs can usually escape battle. Templars not so much but they have insane healing potential as well as some serious debuffs to ward off attackers for a while.

    A DK in a fight is literally trapped in that fight. There is no running, there is nothing but powering through. DKs need the best resource management for their defense/offense, otherwise they would just be the joke of the battlefield, the easiest kill because they are the easiest to pin.
    @rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
    Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
    Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
    Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
    Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin
  • JackDaniell
    JackDaniell
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mumyo wrote: »
    I guess the big difference is that its pretty easy for a dk in comparison to other classes. Those skills are common and used in any setup a dk plays. I never met one that doesnt use Talons just for instance.

    Mostly i think people need to avoid running into banners but they simply stop using their brains as soon as there is a banner... maybe its because u can talk to the banner somehow since last patch. Maybe they just want to negotiate :smile:

    The problem I have with talons is once you break it, you're often immediately talon'd again, so you break again, only to be talon'd again. No other CC mechanic works like these roots. You should be able to be immune at least from the root after first break. But then you can't roll anymore, so you're left with blocking, then your stamina runs dry so you're left with shield spamming, and then you die. All the time you're being hit for 400-500+ with flame lash.

    Just a quick note. Im not looking at the DK class skills as I don't believe they are overpowered. This thread is referring strictly to the passive ability Battle Roar and what that entails for the DK class.

    For example, I think a Templar would out perform a DK if a templar had battle roar because a templar could cast blazing spear from a distance and rely on the ultimate gain from an ultimate like radial sweep to continue to spam the spear indefinitely.
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
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