Princess_Asgari wrote: »Are people not aware dragon nights are tanks? They are intended to take on 1vX and CC large gourps. Each class has their defined role to play. Battle roar is meant to make DKs a tank. There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.
The nerf requests and requests for ZOS to fix or look into things that work fine are becoming rediculous. Learn to play your class and play it well. Not every class can be a tank.
Ofc Battle Roar is very good passive, perhapse one of the best, but from my XP NB in right build can have much more sustained and can build ultimates much faster. So it's defenatly not the Battle Roar issue. First reason - it's players skill, second - it's overpoverd skills that you alredy mentioned - devouring swarm and combat frenzy.
Well, you are on the one hand right about Battle Roar being very helpful for resource management. On the other hand you are totally wrong about the other classes. Yes, they don't get resources for their Ultimate. Instead they have other strong skills and passives.
Templar: They get Health and Stamina for every dead person. For free. So if they kill enough or have allies die next to them, they probably run far harder out of Stamina. Moreover they have a costreduction passive, helping them to maintain resources.
Nightblade: Siphoning Attacks never lets them run out of resources as it restores incredible amounts of resources. In addition to that they have 8% more Magicka and more effective potions.
Sorceror: Playing with Absorption Field you get quite alot of Magicka and Health back. Moreover they have 15% reduced ultimate cost, so they can use their ultimate more frequently than other classes, and have some bonus Magicka regeneration. Dark Exchange gives Magicka and Health back in case they run oom. Can be channeled for 1-2 secs while in Clouding Swarm for example.
mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Battle Roar on it's own does not a beast make. It's a very very good bonus to have when activating an ultie, don't get me wrong, but the issue is for me with the ability to drop ulties so often.
In PvE it's not really overpowered. Even in PvP if you don't have a Combat Frenzy II, it's nothing special.
However, if you have a high ranked DK with Combat Frenzy II fighting scrubs, he can drop 5-6 ulties in a fight.
So is the issue with Battle Roar, or with dropping 6 ulties in a fight? I'll let you make your mind up with that one
skoomatrait wrote: »[...]
xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Dk and Templar in general have a lot of sustain against greater numbers because they cannot up and run from a fight. If nbs and sorcs could sustain against similar numbers (and you can see how powerful it was with sorcs and shield stacking) they'd be crazy in pvp. I'm sure some nb will come in here and tell me dark cloak never works and it never saves him. I have an nb I pvp with so I know that's complete ***. I can't stay and fight like my dk.. But I sure as hell live longer in fights because I can escape most of the time
JackDaniell wrote: »As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .
I think Templars can pull off complarable results as a Dk, although you probably see it happen less often as most Templars play as Healers and not 1vX. But with Blazing Shield and Devouring Swarm a Templar can do very well in 1vX.
If you play on EU servers you might have seen Cpt-Capslock tanking 20 enemies without any problems for example.
Sorcerors and Nightblades usually play with the Clouding morph, so they are less visible but still they get good results.
Sorcerors are uber in farming noobs with no impenetrable (which is a really big amount of ppl actually) with Crit Surge and harder hitting Impulse (which returns Magicka on each kill aswell).
Nightblades can do very well with Sap Essence healing them and some crazy numbers on Clouding because of class passives. One of our guild NBs is able to get 700-800 crits on Batswarm.
So to sum this up, I think every class can get comparable results as a DK, although you might not see it as often for said reasons.
xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »In regards to resource managent nothing competes with nightblades
xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Dk and Templar in general have a lot of sustain against greater numbers because they cannot up and run from a fight. If nbs and sorcs could sustain against similar numbers (and you can see how powerful it was with sorcs and shield stacking) they'd be crazy in pvp. I'm sure some nb will come in here and tell me dark cloak never works and it never saves him. I have an nb I pvp with so I know that's complete ***. I can't stay and fight like my dk.. But I sure as hell live longer in fights because I can escape most of the time
mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »JackDaniell wrote: »As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .
Stated above does not make it right. Your opinion, but I disagree. The synergy of certain passives can make a combination powerful without each one individually being OP.
As I said, in PvE or PvP without Combat Frenzy you don't have access to Battle Roar so often so you don't have resources back so often.
If the issue is Battle Roar alone and it was removed, then PvE DKs and low ranked PvP DKs would have less resource recovery than other classes who have abilities rather than passives, to give them resources.
Princess_Asgari wrote: »Are people not aware dragon nights are tanks? They are intended to take on 1vX and CC large gourps. Each class has their defined role to play. Battle roar is meant to make DKs a tank. There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.
The nerf requests and requests for ZOS to fix or look into things that work fine are becoming rediculous. Learn to play your class and play it well. Not every class can be a tank.
pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Dk and Templar in general have a lot of sustain against greater numbers because they cannot up and run from a fight. If nbs and sorcs could sustain against similar numbers (and you can see how powerful it was with sorcs and shield stacking) they'd be crazy in pvp. I'm sure some nb will come in here and tell me dark cloak never works and it never saves him. I have an nb I pvp with so I know that's complete ***. I can't stay and fight like my dk.. But I sure as hell live longer in fights because I can escape most of the time
We're talking about 1vX here? If so I very very rarely am able to escape multiple foes using cloak. It continuously breaks. What are you doing with cloak that allows you to escape a 1vX situation?
xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Dk and Templar in general have a lot of sustain against greater numbers because they cannot up and run from a fight. If nbs and sorcs could sustain against similar numbers (and you can see how powerful it was with sorcs and shield stacking) they'd be crazy in pvp. I'm sure some nb will come in here and tell me dark cloak never works and it never saves him. I have an nb I pvp with so I know that's complete ***. I can't stay and fight like my dk.. But I sure as hell live longer in fights because I can escape most of the time
We're talking about 1vX here? If so I very very rarely am able to escape multiple foes using cloak. It continuously breaks. What are you doing with cloak that allows you to escape a 1vX situation?
Oh don't get me wrong, there are some fights I cannot get away from, but usually I just spam it, and if I really wanna get away I pop invis speed pot with it (which I was accused of speed hacking by some other yard nightblade) regardless I get away from overwhelming odds on my nb all day long where on my dk if be screwed
JackDaniell wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »JackDaniell wrote: »As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .
Stated above does not make it right. Your opinion, but I disagree. The synergy of certain passives can make a combination powerful without each one individually being OP.
As I said, in PvE or PvP without Combat Frenzy you don't have access to Battle Roar so often so you don't have resources back so often.
If the issue is Battle Roar alone and it was removed, then PvE DKs and low ranked PvP DKs would have less resource recovery than other classes who have abilities rather than passives, to give them resources.
Good points, a very strong opinion. For me I think that the access to battle roar mixed with devouring swarm can begin to push the setup over the edge. In ideal conditions (Combat Frenzy ect) the build will perform at it highest. Do you think at this point the build performs to well?
pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »Princess_Asgari wrote: »Are people not aware dragon nights are tanks? They are intended to take on 1vX and CC large gourps. Each class has their defined role to play. Battle roar is meant to make DKs a tank. There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.
The nerf requests and requests for ZOS to fix or look into things that work fine are becoming rediculous. Learn to play your class and play it well. Not every class can be a tank.
This may be so in PvE. In PvP its all about striving for near balance between classes. And in my experience of MMOs, being a competitive tank comes at great cost to damage output. This is not so with ESO as we're all aware the DK is perhaps the highest/2nd highest dpser in the game. Great dps and great survivability. All these vids posted show that clearly. It has very little to do with other classes needing to L2P as I'm sure you're aware.
Its in no ones interest to have a single class outperform any of the others because many people will just stop playing. How fun will PvP be when 80% of players are the same class?
JackDaniell wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »Princess_Asgari wrote: »Are people not aware dragon nights are tanks? They are intended to take on 1vX and CC large gourps. Each class has their defined role to play. Battle roar is meant to make DKs a tank. There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.
The nerf requests and requests for ZOS to fix or look into things that work fine are becoming rediculous. Learn to play your class and play it well. Not every class can be a tank.
This may be so in PvE. In PvP its all about striving for near balance between classes. And in my experience of MMOs, being a competitive tank comes at great cost to damage output. This is not so with ESO as we're all aware the DK is perhaps the highest/2nd highest dpser in the game. Great dps and great survivability. All these vids posted show that clearly. It has very little to do with other classes needing to L2P as I'm sure you're aware.
Its in no ones interest to have a single class outperform any of the others because many people will just stop playing. How fun will PvP be when 80% of players are the same class?
Great insight in this post. To touch on a few issues, the meta DK PvP build is not a tank in my opinion. It is a AOE DPS build. It simply is able to tank because the DPS it can output directly feeds recourse management that is required for the build to tank. So its basically a "feed" build that can continue to stay alive as long as it has more to kill. This is a direct result of the battle roar passive performing extremely well in outnumbered combat. Now I do not believe that one class excelling much more than others as it becomes more outnumbered is PvP balance in any way. But it is not for me to determine this, it is up to the people who make those executive decisions. So perhaps they do not agree with me.
mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »JackDaniell wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »JackDaniell wrote: »As stated before all classes can build ultimate at similar paces, and all classes have access to combat frenzy. But for a DK ultimates are just simply worth more due to the resources given by it. So the issue here is with battle roar and just how much better or worse the recourse management with it is compared to other classes. .
Stated above does not make it right. Your opinion, but I disagree. The synergy of certain passives can make a combination powerful without each one individually being OP.
As I said, in PvE or PvP without Combat Frenzy you don't have access to Battle Roar so often so you don't have resources back so often.
If the issue is Battle Roar alone and it was removed, then PvE DKs and low ranked PvP DKs would have less resource recovery than other classes who have abilities rather than passives, to give them resources.
Good points, a very strong opinion. For me I think that the access to battle roar mixed with devouring swarm can begin to push the setup over the edge. In ideal conditions (Combat Frenzy ect) the build will perform at it highest. Do you think at this point the build performs to well?
In short, yes it does.
But there's a third element at play here which is Bat Swarm which is
a) cheap
b) generates ult like a mudafucka cause it's a PBAoE that also allows you to cast another PBAoE while channelling
c) gives Battler Roar as if it's a 250 ult ability when in fact with reductions it costs 150. Which arguably is a bug
As a traditional non-Vamp DK, running Banner and Dragon Leap as ults, I find statements like "DK could easily exceed 10000 Magicka, Stamina and Health returned in 1 minute of ultimate generating combat" insane, borderline offensive.
Decomposing these numbers, I get around 2k resources per minute on average by my normal regen. The rest 8k you claim, would have to be recovered by Battle Roar at ~750 per Roar. 60/(8k/750) = 5.45, or an ultie every 5.5 secs.
Even with Combat Frenzy II and Bat Swarm it's debatable whether you could hit those numbers, let alone easily exceed them as you say. Adding hyperbole won't help your argument.
Anyhow. What I'm saying is, we have to look at ult genereation in PvP. If people can string ulties together (which they can though not to the degree you're describing), that strikes me as more out of order than getting resources back on ult activation.
The issue is mostly with batswarm too. I see Sorcs chaining bats one after the other, but they can't do that with Negate. Not since the Streak nerf at least. Because bats are both cheaper and they generate ult much faster.
DKs of course see more benefit out of all this, but we have to identify and decompose the combination of things that lead to this build being so sustainable, before we attack individual abilities or passives which would result in other builds being wrecked.
I guess the big difference is that its pretty easy for a dk in comparison to other classes. Those skills are common and used in any setup a dk plays. I never met one that doesnt use Talons just for instance.
Mostly i think people need to avoid running into banners but they simply stop using their brains as soon as there is a banner... maybe its because u can talk to the banner somehow since last patch. Maybe they just want to negotiate
JackDaniell wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »Princess_Asgari wrote: »Are people not aware dragon nights are tanks? They are intended to take on 1vX and CC large gourps. Each class has their defined role to play. Battle roar is meant to make DKs a tank. There is nothing wrong with the passive and works as it should.
The nerf requests and requests for ZOS to fix or look into things that work fine are becoming rediculous. Learn to play your class and play it well. Not every class can be a tank.
This may be so in PvE. In PvP its all about striving for near balance between classes. And in my experience of MMOs, being a competitive tank comes at great cost to damage output. This is not so with ESO as we're all aware the DK is perhaps the highest/2nd highest dpser in the game. Great dps and great survivability. All these vids posted show that clearly. It has very little to do with other classes needing to L2P as I'm sure you're aware.
Its in no ones interest to have a single class outperform any of the others because many people will just stop playing. How fun will PvP be when 80% of players are the same class?
Great insight in this post. To touch on a few issues, the meta DK PvP build is not a tank in my opinion. It is a AOE DPS build. It simply is able to tank because the DPS it can output directly feeds recourse management that is required for the build to tank. So its basically a "feed" build that can continue to stay alive as long as it has more to kill. This is a direct result of the battle roar passive performing extremely well in outnumbered combat. Now I do not believe that one class excelling much more than others as it becomes more outnumbered is PvP balance in any way. But it is not for me to determine this, it is up to the people who make those executive decisions. So perhaps they do not agree with me.
This, most if not all PvP DKs rely on fools feeding us ulti, as a self appointed pyromancer on eu haderus, I once dropped 3 banners in 4 secs because people kept running into my oil with a standard there.
DK have no resource management outside of dropping ultimates, nerfing this would be unfair imo, it works as intended and should not be messed with
Edit.Sanct sux ;p
pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »I guess the big difference is that its pretty easy for a dk in comparison to other classes. Those skills are common and used in any setup a dk plays. I never met one that doesnt use Talons just for instance.
Mostly i think people need to avoid running into banners but they simply stop using their brains as soon as there is a banner... maybe its because u can talk to the banner somehow since last patch. Maybe they just want to negotiate
The problem I have with talons is once you break it, you're often immediately talon'd again, so you break again, only to be talon'd again. No other CC mechanic works like these roots. You should be able to be immune at least from the root after first break. But then you can't roll anymore, so you're left with blocking, then your stamina runs dry so you're left with shield spamming, and then you die. All the time you're being hit for 400-500+ with flame lash.