Battle Roar - Is this why DK's are thought to be so strong?

Aerrimus

I'm a heavy armor, sword and board DK (traditional tank). I like to charge in and take a beating while the rest of my team picks people off. If I have good healing I'm difficult to take down. If my team doesn't follow I can survive a little while but do very little damage.

When I get jumped, I can usually stay alive long enough to get help and in 1v1-2 situations I have about a 50% win rate.

This is pretty much how a tank DK should work and I can tell you that I also get frustrated when I see light armor DKs "tanking".

I can't stress enough that it's not class, it's the armor. Fix light armor and DKs will have to choose between damage and survivability.

Lfehova

Rylana wrote: »

Siphoning strikes really does need some love though, Hov. The damage reduction pretty much makes the skill itself pretty pointless. You can do more mediocre DPS for a little longer.

Its either heavy burst, or medium over time dps depending on that skill toggle. In the end its really only good for a nightblade healer build.

Otherwise I agree with you.

If ZoS would let me trade my battle roar for siphoning attacks, everyone would truly see how abusable it really is.

I'll give you a hint. Reread the skill and think about how it synergizes with other NB skills.

krim

Rylana wrote: »

Siphoning strikes really does need some love though, Hov. The damage reduction pretty much makes the skill itself pretty pointless. You can do more mediocre DPS for a little longer.

Its either heavy burst, or medium over time dps depending on that skill toggle. In the end its really only good for a nightblade healer build.

Otherwise I agree with you.

And a tank build

Ifthir_ESO

Lfehova wrote: »

But a DK cannot heal anywhere close to the same as a Templar. Or even a sorc or NB.

Am I missing something? You pop your ultimate and heal more with the passive in question than I do with any NB class skill. Then there is green dragon blood.

I don't have any class-based anything as a NB that can heal that much at once.

Maybe I am missing something, I don't play DK's.

Sypher

Some of you are missing the point.



It says it returns resources based off the Ultimate cost. NOT the base Ultimate cost.

Without emperor buffs, The standard costs 200 ult.



At Vampire stage 4, Bat Swarm costs 158. Yet it returns the same amount of resources back as an ultimate that costs 200.


For starters, at least fix this bug/problem.

Epsilon_Echo

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

Some of you are missing the point.



It says it returns resources based off the Ultimate cost. NOT the base Ultimate cost.

Without emperor buffs, The standard costs 200 ult.



At Vampire stage 4, Bat Swarm costs 158. Yet it returns the same amount of resources back as an ultimate that costs 200.


For starters, at least fix this bug/problem.

If there is a bug by all means lets fix it. However we're talking about and additional 150 restored vs the fixed 115 restored. Although its no excused for allowing it to be broken... I don't think there is going to be a whole lot of difference.

Zubba

Refreshing thread this one.

In my view (main NB) the problem is to freqvently be able to spam ultimate. Not the battle roar.

Lfehova

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

But a DK cannot heal anywhere close to the same as a Templar. Or even a sorc or NB.

Am I missing something? You pop your ultimate and heal more with the passive in question than I do with any NB class skill. Then there is green dragon blood.

I don't have any class-based anything as a NB that can heal that much at once.

Maybe I am missing something, I don't play DK's.

Sorry. I meant as a healer for group. Not self healing.

Nightblade swallow soul resto healer is a beastly healer and same with sorc Lightning resto healer. Dat weapon damage for resto heals.

DKs got some new synergy added with igneous shield but it's an expensive temporary buff if you want to heal your group.

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

Some of you are missing the point.



It says it returns resources based off the Ultimate cost. NOT the base Ultimate cost.

Without emperor buffs, The standard costs 200 ult.



At Vampire stage 4, Bat Swarm costs 158. Yet it returns the same amount of resources back as an ultimate that costs 200.


For starters, at least fix this bug/problem.

And No.

It says ultimate's cost. If you look at tooltip in your skill tree. It says standard costs 200 and batswarm costs 200.

Also, who cares?

70% of 200 is 140
70% of 158 is 110.6

Omg that 30 magicka, stamina, and health. Learn to math. Quit this incessant posting about a bug that may not even be a bug due to vague wording by ZoS, and something that is truly an insignificant difference.

Close sypher thread.

Ifthir_ESO

Don't get me wrong, siphoning strikes is nice but its not the end all be all some seem to be making it out to be. Keep in mind you get a big dps hit by activating it.

It's nice if you can turtle and sap essence spam in a bunch of people, I agree though.

Lfehova

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, siphoning strikes is nice but its not the end all be all some seem to be making it out to be. Keep in mind you get a big dps hit by activating it.

It's nice if you can turtle and sap essence spam in a bunch of people, I agree though.

That's because you're thinking inside the box

Aoe_Barbecue

There's an AoE tank/dps NB spec I theory crafted, which I don't think I've seen anyone use. Too bad DK is the premier AoE tanky deeps class because then I'd have a reason to actually try it lawl.

If my math is correct, it would be high dps, quite tanky (no Krim build to be certain), and have legendary sustain. It's only missing Dragon Fire Scale .

Aerrimus

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, siphoning strikes is nice but its not the end all be all some seem to be making it out to be. Keep in mind you get a big dps hit by activating it.

It's nice if you can turtle and sap essence spam in a bunch of people, I agree though.

Is 140 magicka, stamina, and health really as great as some seem to be making it out to be?

Aoe_Barbecue

double

Lfehova

Aerrimus wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, siphoning strikes is nice but its not the end all be all some seem to be making it out to be. Keep in mind you get a big dps hit by activating it.

It's nice if you can turtle and sap essence spam in a bunch of people, I agree though.

Is 140 magicka, stamina, and health really as great as some seem to be making it out to be?

It has a high base value, as jack stated in the original post. It's that high base value + the 140.

Sypher is just freaking nimwitted and arguing about a potential bug that even as a bug, would only account for a potential unwarranted 30 health, magicka, stamina.

Maulkin

Lfehova wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

But a DK cannot heal anywhere close to the same as a Templar. Or even a sorc or NB.

Am I missing something? You pop your ultimate and heal more with the passive in question than I do with any NB class skill. Then there is green dragon blood.

I don't have any class-based anything as a NB that can heal that much at once.

Maybe I am missing something, I don't play DK's.

Sorry. I meant as a healer for group. Not self healing.

Nightblade swallow soul resto healer is a beastly healer and same with sorc Lightning resto healer. Dat weapon damage for resto heals.

DKs got some new synergy added with igneous shield but it's an expensive temporary buff if you want to heal your group.

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

Some of you are missing the point.



It says it returns resources based off the Ultimate cost. NOT the base Ultimate cost.

Without emperor buffs, The standard costs 200 ult.



At Vampire stage 4, Bat Swarm costs 158. Yet it returns the same amount of resources back as an ultimate that costs 200.


For starters, at least fix this bug/problem.

And No.

It says ultimate's cost. If you look at tooltip in your skill tree. It says standard costs 200 and batswarm costs 200.

Also, who cares?

70% of 200 is 140
70% of 158 is 110.6

Omg that 30 magicka, stamina, and health. Learn to math. Quit this incessant posting about a bug that may not even be a bug due to vague wording by ZoS, and something that is truly an insignificant difference.

Close sypher thread.

Lfehova, there's no need to come across as aggressive towards Sypher mate. You can disagree of course and you do have a point that 40 in 800+ regen from Battle Roar is not really a game breaker or maker, just don't go in with personal targeting. There's enough of that on other threads.

Anyhow, like I said I'm on the camp that thinks Battle Roar itself is fine. The synergy with Combat Frenzy and Batswarm, is however a bit too strong for me. It's a bit of a cheese build, without meaning to offend people who run the most efficient build in the game. It's just natural that people will choose it.

Jack has a point that in certain circumstances the total regen achieved is much higher than anyone else would achieve. I do believe that DKs need better regen based on success to negate the fact we don't have escapes. Templars in particular however have neither an escape nor comparable magicka management. Though I believe Templars needs some Magicka love, maybe through a change to Repentance.

It's a personal opinion by all accounts, but I think being able to chain ulties is what's not cool. They'll have to carefully look at that with AoE caps being removed.

As somebody who plays a Sorc as much a DK, I don't feel DKs are too much of a problem for mobile classes. Hell, I can even stand my ground (outside a banner of course) and fight "mano a mano" no problem. I do it in duels. In group settings however, when the DK is using nearby randoms to get constant access to Battler Roar, I have to carefully kite and evade.

They did say they're looking at the whole thing though, so let's hope any changes are reasonable. The ZOS nerfhammer has been fairly brutal in the past

Braidas

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

But a DK cannot heal anywhere close to the same as a Templar. Or even a sorc or NB.

Am I missing something? You pop your ultimate and heal more with the passive in question than I do with any NB class skill. Then there is green dragon blood.

I don't have any class-based anything as a NB that can heal that much at once.

Maybe I am missing something, I don't play DK's.

Sorry. I meant as a healer for group. Not self healing.

Nightblade swallow soul resto healer is a beastly healer and same with sorc Lightning resto healer. Dat weapon damage for resto heals.

DKs got some new synergy added with igneous shield but it's an expensive temporary buff if you want to heal your group.

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

Some of you are missing the point.



It says it returns resources based off the Ultimate cost. NOT the base Ultimate cost.

Without emperor buffs, The standard costs 200 ult.



At Vampire stage 4, Bat Swarm costs 158. Yet it returns the same amount of resources back as an ultimate that costs 200.


For starters, at least fix this bug/problem.

And No.

It says ultimate's cost. If you look at tooltip in your skill tree. It says standard costs 200 and batswarm costs 200.

Also, who cares?

70% of 200 is 140
70% of 158 is 110.6

Omg that 30 magicka, stamina, and health. Learn to math. Quit this incessant posting about a bug that may not even be a bug due to vague wording by ZoS, and something that is truly an insignificant difference.

Close sypher thread.

Lfehova, there's no need to come across as aggressive towards Sypher mate. You can disagree of course and you do have a point that 40 in 800+ regen from Battle Roar is not really a game breaker or maker, just don't go in with personal targeting. There's enough of that on other threads.

Anyhow, like I said I'm on the camp that thinks Battle Roar itself is fine. The synergy with Combat Frenzy and Batswarm, is however a bit too strong for me. It's a bit of a cheese build, without meaning to offend people who run the most efficient build in the game. It's just natural that people will choose it.

Jack has a point that in certain circumstances the total regen achieved is much higher than anyone else would achieve. I do believe that DKs need better regen based on success to negate the fact we don't have escapes. Templars in particular however have neither an escape nor comparable magicka management. Though I believe Templars needs some Magicka love, maybe through a change to Repentance.

It's a personal opinion by all accounts, but I think being able to chain ulties is what's not cool. They'll have to carefully look at that with AoE caps being removed.

As somebody who plays a Sorc as much a DK, I don't feel DKs are too much of a problem for mobile classes. Hell, I can even stand my ground (outside a banner of course) and fight "mano a mano" no problem. I do it in duels. In group settings however, when the DK is using nearby randoms to get constant access to Battler Roar, I have to carefully kite and evade.

They did say they're looking at the whole thing though, so let's hope any changes are reasonable. The ZOS nerfhammer has been fairly brutal in the past

omg repentance giving back magicka too?? someone hold me

Lfehova

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

But a DK cannot heal anywhere close to the same as a Templar. Or even a sorc or NB.

Am I missing something? You pop your ultimate and heal more with the passive in question than I do with any NB class skill. Then there is green dragon blood.

I don't have any class-based anything as a NB that can heal that much at once.

Maybe I am missing something, I don't play DK's.

Sorry. I meant as a healer for group. Not self healing.

Nightblade swallow soul resto healer is a beastly healer and same with sorc Lightning resto healer. Dat weapon damage for resto heals.

DKs got some new synergy added with igneous shield but it's an expensive temporary buff if you want to heal your group.

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

Some of you are missing the point.



It says it returns resources based off the Ultimate cost. NOT the base Ultimate cost.

Without emperor buffs, The standard costs 200 ult.



At Vampire stage 4, Bat Swarm costs 158. Yet it returns the same amount of resources back as an ultimate that costs 200.


For starters, at least fix this bug/problem.

And No.

It says ultimate's cost. If you look at tooltip in your skill tree. It says standard costs 200 and batswarm costs 200.

Also, who cares?

70% of 200 is 140
70% of 158 is 110.6

Omg that 30 magicka, stamina, and health. Learn to math. Quit this incessant posting about a bug that may not even be a bug due to vague wording by ZoS, and something that is truly an insignificant difference.

Close sypher thread.

Lfehova, there's no need to come across as aggressive towards Sypher mate. You can disagree of course and you do have a point that 40 in 800+ regen from Battle Roar is not really a game breaker or maker, just don't go in with personal targeting. There's enough of that on other threads.

Anyhow, like I said I'm on the camp that thinks Battle Roar itself is fine. The synergy with Combat Frenzy and Batswarm, is however a bit too strong for me. It's a bit of a cheese build, without meaning to offend people who run the most efficient build in the game. It's just natural that people will choose it.

Jack has a point that in certain circumstances the total regen achieved is much higher than anyone else would achieve. I do believe that DKs need better regen based on success to negate the fact we don't have escapes. Templars in particular however have neither an escape nor comparable magicka management. Though I believe Templars needs some Magicka love, maybe through a change to Repentance.

It's a personal opinion by all accounts, but I think being able to chain ulties is what's not cool. They'll have to carefully look at that with AoE caps being removed.

As somebody who plays a Sorc as much a DK, I don't feel DKs are too much of a problem for mobile classes. Hell, I can even stand my ground (outside a banner of course) and fight "mano a mano" no problem. I do it in duels. In group settings however, when the DK is using nearby randoms to get constant access to Battler Roar, I have to carefully kite and evade.

They did say they're looking at the whole thing though, so let's hope any changes are reasonable. The ZOS nerfhammer has been fairly brutal in the past

I agree with your points. All except one. Templars have plenty of sustain and their heals are relatively cheap and their blazing shield is unparalleled for shield per magicka cost. It takes me forever to kill a good Templar. I would assume the only time the Templar dies is when he finally runs out of magicka, so giving him more magicka could be dangerous to balance, since he's healing not just himself while sustaining, but others as well.

As for the aggression towards sypher, I pm'd him in game to explain this "bug". This is his third or fourth post about it. In addition, he has had three of his fanboys in the past week, PMing me to ask me why I dislike him, when I already told him straight to his face why. Posts like these contribute.

Braidas

Lfehova wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

But a DK cannot heal anywhere close to the same as a Templar. Or even a sorc or NB.

Am I missing something? You pop your ultimate and heal more with the passive in question than I do with any NB class skill. Then there is green dragon blood.

I don't have any class-based anything as a NB that can heal that much at once.

Maybe I am missing something, I don't play DK's.

Sorry. I meant as a healer for group. Not self healing.

Nightblade swallow soul resto healer is a beastly healer and same with sorc Lightning resto healer. Dat weapon damage for resto heals.

DKs got some new synergy added with igneous shield but it's an expensive temporary buff if you want to heal your group.

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

Some of you are missing the point.



It says it returns resources based off the Ultimate cost. NOT the base Ultimate cost.

Without emperor buffs, The standard costs 200 ult.



At Vampire stage 4, Bat Swarm costs 158. Yet it returns the same amount of resources back as an ultimate that costs 200.


For starters, at least fix this bug/problem.

And No.

It says ultimate's cost. If you look at tooltip in your skill tree. It says standard costs 200 and batswarm costs 200.

Also, who cares?

70% of 200 is 140
70% of 158 is 110.6

Omg that 30 magicka, stamina, and health. Learn to math. Quit this incessant posting about a bug that may not even be a bug due to vague wording by ZoS, and something that is truly an insignificant difference.

Close sypher thread.

Lfehova, there's no need to come across as aggressive towards Sypher mate. You can disagree of course and you do have a point that 40 in 800+ regen from Battle Roar is not really a game breaker or maker, just don't go in with personal targeting. There's enough of that on other threads.

Anyhow, like I said I'm on the camp that thinks Battle Roar itself is fine. The synergy with Combat Frenzy and Batswarm, is however a bit too strong for me. It's a bit of a cheese build, without meaning to offend people who run the most efficient build in the game. It's just natural that people will choose it.

Jack has a point that in certain circumstances the total regen achieved is much higher than anyone else would achieve. I do believe that DKs need better regen based on success to negate the fact we don't have escapes. Templars in particular however have neither an escape nor comparable magicka management. Though I believe Templars needs some Magicka love, maybe through a change to Repentance.

It's a personal opinion by all accounts, but I think being able to chain ulties is what's not cool. They'll have to carefully look at that with AoE caps being removed.

As somebody who plays a Sorc as much a DK, I don't feel DKs are too much of a problem for mobile classes. Hell, I can even stand my ground (outside a banner of course) and fight "mano a mano" no problem. I do it in duels. In group settings however, when the DK is using nearby randoms to get constant access to Battler Roar, I have to carefully kite and evade.

They did say they're looking at the whole thing though, so let's hope any changes are reasonable. The ZOS nerfhammer has been fairly brutal in the past

I agree with your points. All except one. Templars have plenty of sustain and their heals are relatively cheap and their blazing shield is unparalleled for shield per magicka cost. It takes me forever to kill a good Templar. I would assume the only time the Templar dies is when he finally runs out of magicka, so giving him more magicka could be dangerous to balance, since he's healing not just himself while sustaining, but others as well.

As for the aggression towards sypher, I pm'd him in game to explain this "bug". This is his third or fourth post about it. In addition, he has had three of his fanboys in the past week, PMing me to ask me why I dislike him, when I already told him straight to his face why. Posts like these contribute.

Don't listen to this man i need more magicka, buff me zos!

Sypher

Lfehova wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

But a DK cannot heal anywhere close to the same as a Templar. Or even a sorc or NB.

Am I missing something? You pop your ultimate and heal more with the passive in question than I do with any NB class skill. Then there is green dragon blood.

I don't have any class-based anything as a NB that can heal that much at once.

Maybe I am missing something, I don't play DK's.

Sorry. I meant as a healer for group. Not self healing.

Nightblade swallow soul resto healer is a beastly healer and same with sorc Lightning resto healer. Dat weapon damage for resto heals.

DKs got some new synergy added with igneous shield but it's an expensive temporary buff if you want to heal your group.

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

Some of you are missing the point.



It says it returns resources based off the Ultimate cost. NOT the base Ultimate cost.

Without emperor buffs, The standard costs 200 ult.



At Vampire stage 4, Bat Swarm costs 158. Yet it returns the same amount of resources back as an ultimate that costs 200.


For starters, at least fix this bug/problem.

And No.

It says ultimate's cost. If you look at tooltip in your skill tree. It says standard costs 200 and batswarm costs 200.

Also, who cares?

70% of 200 is 140
70% of 158 is 110.6

Omg that 30 magicka, stamina, and health. Learn to math. Quit this incessant posting about a bug that may not even be a bug due to vague wording by ZoS, and something that is truly an insignificant difference.

Close sypher thread.

You think the difference between a Battle Roar of 200 Points and one of 158 is only 30 magicka/stamina/health?

Just looking at a few logs.

Standard of Might Restores ~780-800 Health/Magicka/Stamina (Base of 200)

Dragon Leap Restores ~500-600 Health/Magicka/Stamina (Base of 150)

That's a total of 600-900 Extra Resources that is given from Batswarm due to the fact that that Battle Roar is unintentionally ignoring cost reduction (which isn't bad wording, It's a clear bug)

Lfehova wrote: »

Learn to math

Please.

AhPook_Is_Here

Got an idea, why not just leave classes alone, buff a few weak spots in all the classes, then make a shrine to Akatosh or something, so that anyone can pay 10k to change their class to whatever they think is the most powerful and cry a week in their shoes.

Braidas

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Got an idea, why not just leave classes alone, buff a few weak spots in all the classes, then make a shrine to Akatosh or something, so that anyone can pay 10k to change their class to whatever they think is the most powerful and cry a week in their shoes.

How about a shrine to sheogorath that costs 20k and gives you a random class. 50% chance you get the same class, 20% chance you get sorc, 15% chance u get nb, 14% chance u get temp, and .5% chance u get dk. The last .5% gives u a dk w/ destro, vamp, la, and snb fully leveled w/ golden gear of ur choosing.

eliisra

Zubba wrote: »

Refreshing thread this one.

In my view (main NB) the problem is to freqvently be able to spam ultimate. Not the battle roar.

My templar strongly disagrees lol. Cant say I'm ever able to ulti spam. Takes a lifetime to build 288 ulti for Nova. When it's finally ready, it gets instantly Negated by a frickin' sorcerer, poff gone

Topic: Battle Roar combined with Combat Frenzy 2/2 and low ulti costs, that's great synergy. Maybe a little to effective in larger battles, when farming fields of disorganized randoms. But it doesn't matter much in quality small scale PvP or 1v1, because no one is going to feed the DK's ulti addiction. So I dont know. I guess it comes down to how PvP should be balanced.

Maulkin

Braidas wrote: »

omg repentance giving back magicka too?? someone hold me

He he. In my humble opinion, Templar needs quite a few changes to move him away from the repetitive Blazing Shield spam while not reducing his overall tankiness. To spice up the class and make more than a couple builds viable.

I think it's very hard to play a magicka DPS Templar for example. That Dawn's Wrath line needs its abilities to hit much much faster than they currently do for starters.

I would personally increase the cost on Blazing Shield a bit, but give Repentance some magicka return too to compensate. I would probably have one morph of Rushed Ceremony being a reliable self heal for those that are tanks rather than healers, to remove the risk of the heal being "stolen" by some nearby player who's running low on health.

But, I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on Templars as the highest level I ever got mine was ~20. I'll leave that to those who play the class.

Anyhow, that's a conversation for another thread. Apologies to Jack for digressing

Huntler

Lfehova wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

But a DK cannot heal anywhere close to the same as a Templar. Or even a sorc or NB.

Am I missing something? You pop your ultimate and heal more with the passive in question than I do with any NB class skill. Then there is green dragon blood.

I don't have any class-based anything as a NB that can heal that much at once.

Maybe I am missing something, I don't play DK's.

Sorry. I meant as a healer for group. Not self healing.

Nightblade swallow soul resto healer is a beastly healer and same with sorc Lightning resto healer. Dat weapon damage for resto heals.

DKs got some new synergy added with igneous shield but it's an expensive temporary buff if you want to heal your group.

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

Some of you are missing the point.



It says it returns resources based off the Ultimate cost. NOT the base Ultimate cost.

Without emperor buffs, The standard costs 200 ult.



At Vampire stage 4, Bat Swarm costs 158. Yet it returns the same amount of resources back as an ultimate that costs 200.


For starters, at least fix this bug/problem.

And No.

It says ultimate's cost. If you look at tooltip in your skill tree. It says standard costs 200 and batswarm costs 200.

Also, who cares?

70% of 200 is 140
70% of 158 is 110.6

Omg that 30 magicka, stamina, and health. Learn to math. Quit this incessant posting about a bug that may not even be a bug due to vague wording by ZoS, and something that is truly an insignificant difference.

Close sypher thread.

Lfehova, there's no need to come across as aggressive towards Sypher mate. You can disagree of course and you do have a point that 40 in 800+ regen from Battle Roar is not really a game breaker or maker, just don't go in with personal targeting. There's enough of that on other threads.

Anyhow, like I said I'm on the camp that thinks Battle Roar itself is fine. The synergy with Combat Frenzy and Batswarm, is however a bit too strong for me. It's a bit of a cheese build, without meaning to offend people who run the most efficient build in the game. It's just natural that people will choose it.

Jack has a point that in certain circumstances the total regen achieved is much higher than anyone else would achieve. I do believe that DKs need better regen based on success to negate the fact we don't have escapes. Templars in particular however have neither an escape nor comparable magicka management. Though I believe Templars needs some Magicka love, maybe through a change to Repentance.

It's a personal opinion by all accounts, but I think being able to chain ulties is what's not cool. They'll have to carefully look at that with AoE caps being removed.

As somebody who plays a Sorc as much a DK, I don't feel DKs are too much of a problem for mobile classes. Hell, I can even stand my ground (outside a banner of course) and fight "mano a mano" no problem. I do it in duels. In group settings however, when the DK is using nearby randoms to get constant access to Battler Roar, I have to carefully kite and evade.

They did say they're looking at the whole thing though, so let's hope any changes are reasonable. The ZOS nerfhammer has been fairly brutal in the past

I agree with your points. All except one. Templars have plenty of sustain and their heals are relatively cheap and their blazing shield is unparalleled for shield per magicka cost. It takes me forever to kill a good Templar. I would assume the only time the Templar dies is when he finally runs out of magicka, so giving him more magicka could be dangerous to balance, since he's healing not just himself while sustaining, but others as well.

As for the aggression towards sypher, I pm'd him in game to explain this "bug". This is his third or fourth post about it. In addition, he has had three of his fanboys in the past week, PMing me to ask me why I dislike him, when I already told him straight to his face why. Posts like these contribute.

In what world are Templar heals cheap? They are the most expensive heal in the game. You have to compare apples to apples hova, if you're trying to say templar heals are cheap because templar healers will wear all 7 light armor, 3 magicka reduction enchants, seducers, etc. then compare it to someone who doesn't do the same than yeah they'll seem cheap. However, templar heals are ridiculous expensive (and thats fine because they are strong), but don't kid yourself in thinking they are cheap. I actually agree that Templars deserve better magicka management as they have basically nothing as far as class wise to manage that resource (repentance is an interesting idea, but could be broken in certain cases). Blazing shield can be cheap as well, but we are talking 2 different type of templars here and healing templars don't have the kind of sustain basically every other class does (through a combination of class passives/abilities) in fact we have nothing. Our crutch has been to have other healers around to spell symm or use magicka harness. Magicka harness is going out the window soon so basically you have to use tools that everyone else has access to (pots, spell symm, heavy attacks) while just being worse in general.

Some kind of templar class mechanic for magicka would be nice. Nerf blazing shield for all I care (I say just undo the buff they gave it so that you don't remember magicka when its up, then no spamming or gg templar).

But for the love of god its a joke if you say templar heals are cheap... A dps templar doesn't need much magicka so I am guessing that is where youre getting this misconception as they don't need to heal much, just spam cheap blazing shield/spears. Even then that templar build is gimmicky as f*ck. Idiots die to that garbage (I know because I've run it). When your build relies on your opponent's stupidity its not a good build across the board. I half think the reason Zeni hasn't nerfed blazing shield spam is because they have no idea what to do to help templars if they nerf it because templars will likely be back in the gutter kill/tank wise. Sure we are great healers, but as I said in my opinion a magicka resource mechanic (doesn't have to be strong) but something is needed.

Keep in mind I'm not talking here about the 2 hander templar small man or 1v1 build that is out there because thats pretty strong, but not very useful in group fighting.

Braidas

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Braidas wrote: »

omg repentance giving back magicka too?? someone hold me

He he. In my humble opinion, Templar needs quite a few changes to move him away from the repetitive Blazing Shield spam while not reducing his overall tankiness. To spice up the class and make more than a couple builds viable.

I think it's very hard to play a magicka DPS Templar for example. That Dawn's Wrath line needs its abilities to hit much much faster than they currently do for starters.

I would personally increase the cost on Blazing Shield a bit, but give Repentance some magicka return too to compensate. I would probably have one morph of Rushed Ceremony being a reliable self heal for those that are tanks rather than healers, to remove the risk of the heal being "stolen" by some nearby player who's running low on health.

But, I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on Templars as the highest level I ever got mine was ~20. I'll leave that to those who play the class.

Anyhow, that's a conversation for another thread. Apologies to Jack for digressing

hmmm ok ok...but how about, repentance restores magicka, stam, and health equally, blazing shield is a permanent buff, and flap flap?

AhPook_Is_Here

Braidas wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Got an idea, why not just leave classes alone, buff a few weak spots in all the classes, then make a shrine to Akatosh or something, so that anyone can pay 10k to change their class to whatever they think is the most powerful and cry a week in their shoes.

How about a shrine to sheogorath that costs 20k and gives you a random class. 50% chance you get the same class, 20% chance you get sorc, 15% chance u get nb, 14% chance u get temp, and .5% chance u get dk. The last .5% gives u a dk w/ destro, vamp, la, and snb fully leveled w/ golden gear of ur choosing.

I kind of like my idea better because then zeni could base class balancing issues off of reliable deltas of people switching to a class and then switching to another class or their original class and based on the rate and size of change determine honest player opinion on class balance. Currently, hyperbolic arguments based only on self-interest and the obvious obstetrical to re-rolling a class seem to play a heavy role in their decision making.

Huntler

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Braidas wrote: »

omg repentance giving back magicka too?? someone hold me

He he. In my humble opinion, Templar needs quite a few changes to move him away from the repetitive Blazing Shield spam while not reducing his overall tankiness. To spice up the class and make more than a couple builds viable.

I think it's very hard to play a magicka DPS Templar for example. That Dawn's Wrath line needs its abilities to hit much much faster than they currently do for starters.

I would personally increase the cost on Blazing Shield a bit, but give Repentance some magicka return too to compensate. I would probably have one morph of Rushed Ceremony being a reliable self heal for those that are tanks rather than healers, to remove the risk of the heal being "stolen" by some nearby player who's running low on health.

But, I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on Templars as the highest level I ever got mine was ~20. I'll leave that to those who play the class.

Anyhow, that's a conversation for another thread. Apologies to Jack for digressing

Na I'm happy for this digression its not talked about enough. The Braidas can joke all he wants, but I am curious how often he goes heal mode or something templars suck with magicka. You are absolutely right that dawn's wrath abilities are slow. Our range dot takes seconds to get to people... as silly as that sounds its basically useless from range because of how long it takes. Laugh as a bowman shoots you 3 times from max range before it gets to him.

Blazing shield should just get nerfed to what is was before so it is no longer spammable or hell give it the same treatment as BE for all I care. For those who forgot before you could not regen magicka with it up, so basically it'll be harder to keep up (heck maybe even a slight increase in cost). Putting magicka return on repetance would be very intersting, but it likely would have to be a little less than what it gives for health/stamina. The downside there is you need bodies and other templars could be giving you issues. Some kind of mechanic would be nice though since we are the only class without one.

shanersimms_ESO

JackDaniell wrote: »

Hello everyone, just a topic that has fought my interest as of lately. Battle Roar, for those of you who may not know, is a Dragon Knight passive ability that returns recourses on ultimate cast, according to the initial cost of the ultimate.

Tool Tip: Battle Roar

Restore Health, Magicka, and Stamina. Restore amount increased by 70% of the ultimate cost.

Now the Base value restored for ANY ultimate casted is 600 Magicka, Health and Stamina at level 50. This is then increased by 70% of ultimate cost BEFORE and ultimate cost reduction effects.

For example: Standard of Might - Cost 200 ultimate

700 base value + 140 (70% of 200) Health, Magicka, and Stamina.

Devouring Swarm - Cost 200 ultimate (can have cost reduced by many methods but this does not effect return with battle roar)

700 base value + 140 (70% of 200) Health, Magicka, and Stamina.

What does this mean for Dragonknights? Every time they cast an ultimate ability they chug a tri pot (one of the host potions in the game - Restores around 700 Magicka, Health and Stamina). A pretty dam good passive if I don't say so myself.

So how much of an effect does this have? Well in small scale combat, not allot. If a DK cannot build ultimate quickly this is still a great passive, but its nothing to brag about. What about if a DK had access to AOE dot skills? AOE control skills? and could hit many many targets with them? Thats a recipe for allot of ultimate gain. Lets say that dragon knight can cast an ultimate like devouring swarm 3 times every minute (a low number for 1 minute of combat of that scale). That DK is essentially drinking 3 extra tri pots in that minuite.

A good sustaining build has an average stat restoration of about 4000 of each stat a minute while not using potions. That means if that DK gets 3 ultimates off he gets an extra 2520 of each stat onto of that. Now lets think about the DKs we know in PvP, maybe we are one. Do they cast their ultimate only 3 times a minute? Chances are no. The DK builds that are viewed as some of the best can almost indefinitely sustain devouring swarm while in the aforementioned combat conditions (Thats 1 ultimate cast every 6 seconds assuming they can generate the ultimate).

So now lets get to the reason as why battle roar may be the single factor that causes a Dragon Knight to seem so strong. Yes they have very good skills, but so do other classes. But the right combination of these skills can be used to generate allot of ultimate (Talons, Inhale, Reflective Scales) And then if a kill is made more ultimate is rewarded (depending the the rank of the player of course). This then essentially makes a Dragon Knight much more powerful as they have more opponents to fight. But when they fight alone they are for the most part on par.

Now I hope this provides valuable insight as to the appearance of a Dragon Knight being the best class in PvP, especially when outnumbered. In theory, a DK could invest all their gear and stats into increased damage and cost reduction, and sustain themselves in outnumbered combat relying almost solely on Battle Roar. Perhaps this was intend by Zenimax, perhaps it was not. But NO other class can restore recourses like this when in disadvantageous (number wise) combat. Now it makes sense why a DK an block for days while getting slammed on by a zerg.

If you want to see yourself watch any Dragon Knight video on the internet and look at the recourse management. To paraphrase myself, perhaps this should be an issue looked at by Zenimax, perhaps it is the way they intended it. That I do not know, but let me know what you all think.

Please let me know your opinion to @ZOS_BrianWheeler !

Current discussion: Perhaps a cool down on battle roar would be balancing?

Edit: Incorrectly quoted base return value as 600 when it was in fact 700

No no, it's just Reflective Scales. That is all.

Maulkin

Braidas wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Braidas wrote: »

omg repentance giving back magicka too?? someone hold me

He he. In my humble opinion, Templar needs quite a few changes to move him away from the repetitive Blazing Shield spam while not reducing his overall tankiness. To spice up the class and make more than a couple builds viable.

I think it's very hard to play a magicka DPS Templar for example. That Dawn's Wrath line needs its abilities to hit much much faster than they currently do for starters.

I would personally increase the cost on Blazing Shield a bit, but give Repentance some magicka return too to compensate. I would probably have one morph of Rushed Ceremony being a reliable self heal for those that are tanks rather than healers, to remove the risk of the heal being "stolen" by some nearby player who's running low on health.

But, I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on Templars as the highest level I ever got mine was ~20. I'll leave that to those who play the class.

Anyhow, that's a conversation for another thread. Apologies to Jack for digressing

hmmm ok ok...but how about, repentance restores magicka, stam, and health equally, blazing shield is a permanent buff, and flap flap?

Ha ha
How about no

Braidas

Huntler wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Braidas wrote: »

omg repentance giving back magicka too?? someone hold me

He he. In my humble opinion, Templar needs quite a few changes to move him away from the repetitive Blazing Shield spam while not reducing his overall tankiness. To spice up the class and make more than a couple builds viable.

I think it's very hard to play a magicka DPS Templar for example. That Dawn's Wrath line needs its abilities to hit much much faster than they currently do for starters.

I would personally increase the cost on Blazing Shield a bit, but give Repentance some magicka return too to compensate. I would probably have one morph of Rushed Ceremony being a reliable self heal for those that are tanks rather than healers, to remove the risk of the heal being "stolen" by some nearby player who's running low on health.

But, I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on Templars as the highest level I ever got mine was ~20. I'll leave that to those who play the class.

Anyhow, that's a conversation for another thread. Apologies to Jack for digressing

Na I'm happy for this digression its not talked about enough. The Braidas can joke all he wants, but I am curious how often he goes heal mode or something templars suck with magicka. You are absolutely right that dawn's wrath abilities are slow. Our range dot takes seconds to get to people... as silly as that sounds its basically useless from range because of how long it takes. Laugh as a bowman shoots you 3 times from max range before it gets to him.

Blazing shield should just get nerfed to what is was before so it is no longer spammable or hell give it the same treatment as BE for all I care. For those who forgot before you could not regen magicka with it up, so basically it'll be harder to keep up (heck maybe even a slight increase in cost). Putting magicka return on repetance would be very intersting, but it likely would have to be a little less than what it gives for health/stamina. The downside there is you need bodies and other templars could be giving you issues. Some kind of mechanic would be nice though since we are the only class without one.

oh no i agree temps have no magicka sustain at all. i've healed before and either way you have to pull out all the stops to maintain even a semblance of magicka.

blazing shield spam may be gimmicky but it's hilarious dont take tht away from me lol