Maintenance for the week of May 10:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 10
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – May 11, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
We will be performing maintenance for patch 7.0.3 on the PTS on Monday at 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC).
The Blackwood Chapter and Update 30 are now available for testing on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts/

[Feedback / Suggestion (not a petition!)] Please reinstate Nights Silence + Dark Stalker stacking

Atarax
Atarax
✭✭✭
Before posting a response, I request that people at least read how it worked first. Note also, this is not a petition anymore, since we can't have petitions apparently... Please stick to the facts, and the topic, if you respond. Feel free to discuss.

I am creating this thread for two purposes; to:

1. Explain the mechanics of how stealth speed worked pre-1.4 to people who may have misconceptions.
2. Request that devs re-instate the stacking of Nights Silence + Dark Stalker.

In the process, I will also examine the arguments I have seen for and against the stacking, as well as the pros and cons of allowing this in-game.

If you agree that it should be reinstated after reading the section on mechanics, please state so and discuss. If not, please also state so and discuss. (Apparently there is a rule that we cannot do a petition, so be sure not to just /sign).

The Mechanics

Some people seem to think that the stacking of Night's Silence +Dark Stalker could "make people run faster than horses sprint" and "enable them to escape from combat at will." Here is how it actually worked:

Out of Combat State:
1. Click crouch
2. Wait 3 seconds to hide if no enemies are nearby
3. The speed increase takes hold when the "eye" closes completely

In Combat State:
1. Run out of combat range OR use invisibility potions OR use Cloak
2. Stay hidden, do not take damage or get spotted (mages cloak and detect potions will break it), for approximately 10 seconds
3. If you manage that, you will drop out of combat state, the eye will close, and your movement speed will increase

As you can see, it was not a get out of jail free card. At best, it was a fun "get around faster when not in combat" card.

So what happened with the stacking, just how fast were people moving? Let's compare horses vs. speed:

(source in-game data &:http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/129146/lets-clear-up-the-whole-stealth-speed-issue-w-vampires-hard-data-and-actual-testing-inside)

Base movement speed
No mount, walking = 100%
Sprinting = 125%

Horses
Standard horse, no sprint, no apples: +15% =115%
Standard horse, no sprint, maxed out apples: +65% =165%
Fast horse, no sprint, maxed out apples:+75% =175%
Fast horse, maxed out apples, sprint: +75%+25%=200%

Pros:
1. Horses can sprint indefinitely
2. You can wear any 5-peice armor set you want

Cons:
1. You can be seen at a distance
2. The fastest horse costs ~47k + 50 apples @250 each= ~60,000g

Stealth
Stealth speed, no tricks: 60%
Stealth speed + concealed weapon: 75%
Dark stalker + stealth: 100%
Night's Silence + stealth: 100%
Dark stalker + stealth + concealed weapon: 128%
Dark stalker + stealth + night's silence: 160%
Dark stalker + stealth + concealed weapon + night's silence: 186%

Pros:
1. You cannot be seen as long as you remain in stealth (unless someone gets you with mage light or detect potions)
2. You move 14% slower than the fastest horse sprints

Cons:
1. Moving in stealth eats stamina quickly
3. You cannot stealth in combat, it will take you at least 10 seconds of being out of combat before the speed kicks in.
4. You must be a vampire, which makes you take 50% more damage from fire (or give up a jewellery slot to lower that to 25%).
5. As a vampire you are also vulnerable to all the figher's guild actives and passives.
6. To get the fastest stealth, as a nightblade, you must use an active ability slot for concealed weapon, which is only good as an opener out of stealth, otherwise you are 26% slower than you otherwise would be
7. You must give up another 5-peice armor bonus for Night's Silence set.
8. You must either carry two sets of armor, or make Night's Silence your main set.
9. A white night's silence set will cost approximately 5000g from players, if you want a gold suit, assuming you are a risk taker that got lucky, and only used 3 upgrade materials each at purple and gold, the cost for a 5-peice suit at today's prices is:

700g for 1 purple upgrade material * 3: 2100 per peice
2500g for 1 gold upgrade material *3: 7500 per peice
Total: 9,600g per peice * 5 peices= 48,000 gold (conservatively), the reality is, if you want to be sure you'll get the suit on the first attempt, and count the yellow and blue mat costs, total cost is closer to.... wait for it.... ~60,000 g.

I can also confirm firsthand that the fastest mounts sprinting are faster than a nightblade running the full setup. I was grouped with two friends in Cyrodiil who had maxed fast mounts. I would gradually fall behind, then run out of stamina, then have to rest. One of them decided to start casting rapid manoeuvre on us. He would cast, mount, then sprint off ahead of me, when it ran out, he would dismount. Even running constantly, I was barely able to get into range to catch the rapid manoeuvre before he cast.

Arguments for:
1. It's "fun" (yes, I put this first intentionally)
2. Anyone can do it (at least night's silence + dark stalker)
3. It is inconsistent that all other passives stack with armor bonuses, but this one does not
4. It appears "balanced" in that it requires 1) investment on a par with the fastest mount to make it viable in combat, 2) loss of flexibility by forcing the slotting of an active ability 3) increased susceptibility to fire 4) giving up an alternative 5-set bonus
5. Preventing the stacking makes the only "nightblade / vampire esque" armor suit obsolete
6. It fits within the genre (a vampire, that moves fast, wearing enchanted armor that makes you move fast, should move even faster)
7. It's a bit of fun that Nightblades enjoyed; this was huge for the poorest performing class at the moment which isn't much fun to play in it's current state (IMO)
8. It's fun.

Arguments against (and counterarguments):
1. "It's not realistic" "It offends my sensibilities!"--> Please note, this is a game with vampires, not reality, if I wanted reality, I'd be at the office; in the fantasy genre, vampires are often portrayed as moving very quickly, as a vampire wearing enchanted armor that costs a fortune and makes you move faster, I should be able to move faster, it fits in the genre. You not liking it or not understanding it, is not a reason to change the way abilities stack, or for a non-combat setup to be nerfed.
2. "It allows users to escape combat whenever they want!" --> No, as you can see from the way the mechanics work, that is simply not true, it doesn't take hold in combat; the ability you're thinking of is called "Bolt Escape" and it is over that way --->
3. "But I paid so much for my mount!" --> People who use this set-up in combat sacrifice even more, and probably paid just as much.
4. "It's OP!!!!ROFLCOPTER" --> Why? In what way? All it does, again, is let you move faster out of combat, and there are significant trade-offs to being able to do so.
5. "The Devs may have some grand secret design we all don't know about that would make this OP" --> Given that it's not OP now, I don't really see how that could happen, but let's assume that's possible for a moment, how about we agree to cross that bridge if we come to it?
6. "This isn't Twilight Online" --> Vampires first appeared in an Elder Scrolls game in Elder Scrolls Arena (published March 1994); Twilight (the book) wasn't published until 2005, and the movies not until 2008; so if anything, Twilight copied the Elder Scrolls; however, I realize some of you (most likely those posting nonsense about "this is not Twilight Online") were probably not born yet when Arena was published. Players have been able to become vampires in the Elder Scrolls since Daggerfall (published in 1996, still well before Twilight was even a concept, let alone a book or movie); in fact, in Daggerfall & Morrowind, there were even vampire factions players could join (some with differing abilities)
7. "Okay, we'll give you speed back if you die instantly in sunlight" --> Vampires in Elder Scrolls have never been killed instantly by sunlight, that's the wrong kind of vampire, they have, however, had a lot of benefits, and in some incarnations, had their health regeneration reduced in sunlight, etc. You'll note that, per the lore, vampires in ESO are from a different strain of vampirism.
8. "I killed vampires in Skyrim, and they weren't fast" --> Skyrim player vampires had even more benefits than ESO vampires, and could become vampire lords (which could fly really fast across the landscape) with the addition of Dawnguard, see more here: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Vampirism

Conclusion:
Night's silence + dark stalker lets you move fast stealthed, but not faster, nor as far, as similarly-priced horses are capable of, it also comes with some heavy trade-offs. But, it's fun. Please return it to the way it was in 1.3.
Edited by Atarax on September 17, 2014 11:37AM
50 Bosmer Nightblade
50 Breton Sorcerer
50 Dunmer Dragonknight
50 Imperial Templar
50 Khajit Nightblade
50 Imperial Dragonknight
50 Altmer Sorcerer
50 Argonian Templar

Discussions of Interest:
Class Balance in 1.6
Quest Choices
Request to Reinstate Night's Silence and Dark Stalker stacking
  • rook75
    rook75
    ✭✭
    Worst part? ANYONE can get 160% movement speed, NOT just NB's.

    SO

    MUCH

    FAIL
  • eventide03b14a_ESO
    eventide03b14a_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    ZOS doesn't listen to us.
    :trollin:
  • KenjiJU
    KenjiJU
    ✭✭✭
    Question.

    Does this let you surpass the window of time need for PvE mob clusters to react and detect you?
  • Atarax
    Atarax
    ✭✭✭
    KenjiJU wrote: »
    Question.

    Does this let you surpass the window of time need for PvE mob clusters to react and detect you?

    I didn't notice any difference in detection ability of critters. That said, out of habit, if I wanted to move through a pack of mobs, I would usually use Cloak anyway just to be safe. So I might not be the best person to answer that query. But the times where I didn't use, they noticed me about as easily as without Night's Silence.
    Edited by Atarax on September 17, 2014 2:29PM
    50 Bosmer Nightblade
    50 Breton Sorcerer
    50 Dunmer Dragonknight
    50 Imperial Templar
    50 Khajit Nightblade
    50 Imperial Dragonknight
    50 Altmer Sorcerer
    50 Argonian Templar

    Discussions of Interest:
    Class Balance in 1.6
    Quest Choices
    Request to Reinstate Night's Silence and Dark Stalker stacking
  • Phinix1
    Phinix1
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not going to post the email because it would be "naming and shaming" a ZOS employee, however I put in a support request after Night Silence first went live in update 3 asking if the effect was intended as I planned to craft a purple set and basically, they confirmed at that time it was working as intended.

    They clearly flip-flopped, no question about it.

    What I would like to see, is a modification of this "quick and dirty" nerf to instead have a CAP, that is set somewhere between vampire sneak speed by itself and the previous vamp+Night Silence stack speed.

    That way immortal vampires can still move faster than any average Joe with sneaky pants on, and still not move "too fast," which is stupid anyway, since you could only use it OUT OF COMBAT.

    ZOS, I am disappoint.
  • Atarax
    Atarax
    ✭✭✭
    @AlienDiplomat‌

    Thanks for commenting and supporting. Any reason why you think there should be a cap? I personally don't see the need for a limit when the stacked speed is already lower than alternative forms of movement available to everyone.

    It also sets a bad precedent for them to start putting in arbitrary caps on the stacking of passives + set bonuses.

    Willing to hear out your logic though.
    50 Bosmer Nightblade
    50 Breton Sorcerer
    50 Dunmer Dragonknight
    50 Imperial Templar
    50 Khajit Nightblade
    50 Imperial Dragonknight
    50 Altmer Sorcerer
    50 Argonian Templar

    Discussions of Interest:
    Class Balance in 1.6
    Quest Choices
    Request to Reinstate Night's Silence and Dark Stalker stacking
  • Preky19
    Preky19
    ✭✭✭
    I still do not understand why it was changed:
    forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/132224/night-silence-set#latest
    It was working as intended. One cancels the movement penalty, the other increased the speed. It was not a bug.

    Do you get any other advantage except sneak speed? No
    Ppl which are willing to use it, need to waste a 5 pieces set bonus on it, so where was a problem?
    Kha'jun - VR16 - Khajiit - Stamina NB - AVA 34 - Aldmeri Dominion - EU
    Kh'ajun - VR16 - Woodelf - Stamina NB - AVA 27 - Aldmeri Dominion - EU
    K'hajun - VR16 - High Elf - Magicka NB - AVA 21 - Aldmeri Dominion - EU

    Son of Kha'jun - VR16 - Khajiit - Stamina NB - AVA 18 - Ebonheart Pact - EU

    Kha'jun II - VR16 - Khajiit - Stamina NB - AVA 46 - Aldmeri Dominion - NA


  • Sunrock
    Sunrock
    ✭✭✭
    This was a change that had to come before the justice system was introduced into the game. Right now it would not have been OP but it would have been super OP when the justice system and the bounty hunt PvP starts.
  • Preky19
    Preky19
    ✭✭✭
    Kha'jun - VR16 - Khajiit - Stamina NB - AVA 34 - Aldmeri Dominion - EU
    Kh'ajun - VR16 - Woodelf - Stamina NB - AVA 27 - Aldmeri Dominion - EU
    K'hajun - VR16 - High Elf - Magicka NB - AVA 21 - Aldmeri Dominion - EU

    Son of Kha'jun - VR16 - Khajiit - Stamina NB - AVA 18 - Ebonheart Pact - EU

    Kha'jun II - VR16 - Khajiit - Stamina NB - AVA 46 - Aldmeri Dominion - NA


  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    yes developers, please put it back correctly like it was previously please,
    it was no threat or danger to anyone, it had no bonus nor help to battle or pvp or pve because it only applied while in stealth, cant cary a scroll in stealth, cannot have speed while out of stealth.
    there was nothing wrong with that speed we had and it was a very helpfull fun time to use it for my one and only character nightblade.

    please return me to that speed so i can continue to have fun and also help me escape constant death.
    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sunrock wrote: »
    This was a change that had to come before the justice system was introduced into the game. Right now it would not have been OP but it would have been super OP when the justice system and the bounty hunt PvP starts.
    no, im sory that's false information.

    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
  • Atarax
    Atarax
    ✭✭✭
    Preky19 wrote: »

    Voted yes, thanks @Preky19‌
    Sunrock wrote: »
    This was a change that had to come before the justice system was introduced into the game. Right now it would not have been OP but it would have been super OP when the justice system and the bounty hunt PvP starts.

    Based on what evidence? Oh, what, you're just piping pure speculation? Okay... moving on then. Note, this argument was already addressed as "arguments against" #5.


    Edited by Atarax on September 20, 2014 6:20AM
    50 Bosmer Nightblade
    50 Breton Sorcerer
    50 Dunmer Dragonknight
    50 Imperial Templar
    50 Khajit Nightblade
    50 Imperial Dragonknight
    50 Altmer Sorcerer
    50 Argonian Templar

    Discussions of Interest:
    Class Balance in 1.6
    Quest Choices
    Request to Reinstate Night's Silence and Dark Stalker stacking
  • blowe_none
    blowe_none
    Soul Shriven
    Even if I didn’t prefer to play a NB vamp I would think that this should be brought back. There is no harm in it and it made many people happy.

    I personally struggled with my NB/Vamp build, respecing more than once and was finally happy with him at VR4 when I crafted my own set of nights silence (the night before patch mind you) and ran around for a total of 15 minute like that and couldn’t wait to do it again the next day. But, much to my dismay when I logged on the next morning my smile was gone. Everything I went through just to cruise around the game gold, skill points, respecs, materials, time, research etc… everything was for not.

    I have since to play my main NB. I have logged to research and craft but loosing something you work so hard to achieve kind of takes the wind out of your sails. So very true was the statement that it was “FUN” I personally couldn’t agree more!! Please bring it back!!
    :)
  • Luvsfuzzybunnies
    Luvsfuzzybunnies
    ✭✭✭
    I think the fact that this was available to everyone not just nightblades is good enough argument to have it either way. What is max speed you can achieve now 135% with concealed/vampire or set bonus/steed mundus? Seems pretty quick for sneaking to move 10% faster than run speed. Why all the hooplah? Probably because the reason it got nerfed was because not everyone was willing to give up other set bonuses to have speed. Sorcs were probably the biggest culprit here considering the speed could actually catch them.as they tried to bolt away and if you can do that then something is not right. I will also put out there that I never used the nights silence or other set or the steed mundus stone. I did however have vampire at one point and concealed weapon at one point as well but not at the same time so I never did benefit from the speed but also never had a problem with it. I did miss out on some kills as my snipe was about to go off and then they are halfway across the map but sorcs can do exactly the same thing with no drawback to being in combat or ccd.

    Edit: TL:DR I am indifferent it provides no clear advantage to one specific class all players could obtain such high speeds so there was not really any one class that this was better for to such a huge degree that it should have been altered. If you don't wanna waste the sarmor slots you don't have to but nights silence didn't provide the weapon or spell damage increases that other sets did so it was in fact t a trade off unlike when people say theyou sacrifice dps for survivability because honestly it's not true. Your Magicka pool/recovery is both your survivability and your dps. Until they fix that no one sacrifices dps for survivability. This is still quite long.
    Edited by Luvsfuzzybunnies on September 20, 2014 12:11PM
    Jukette VR12 DC Nightblade 14 day campaign.
    Kitten Kisser VR12 DC Sorcerer 14 day campaign
  • Sunrock
    Sunrock
    ✭✭✭
    Sunrock wrote: »
    This was a change that had to come before the justice system was introduced into the game. Right now it would not have been OP but it would have been super OP when the justice system and the bounty hunt PvP starts.
    no, im sory that's false information.

    What? You mean thats not the case way they nerfed it? Yea that might be true. But it still had to be nerfed for the justice system anyway. Because it would be too *** super easy to avoid detection from guards and players if you have a high wanted status. Anyone with a normal IQ have to see that.
  • Atarax
    Atarax
    ✭✭✭
    Sunrock wrote: »

    What? You mean thats not the case way they nerfed it? Yea that might be true. But it still had to be nerfed for the justice system anyway. Because it would be too *** super easy to avoid detection from guards and players if you have a high wanted status. Anyone with a normal IQ have to see that.

    Hi, you do realize that Night's Silence doesn't affect detect radius right? It only makes you move faster.

    Also, as mentioned frequently, if someone spots you, you don't get to keep the speed bonus, it drops off. Soooo, Justice system and Night's Silence are pretty unrelated all things considered.

    I guess your vaunted IQ missed that part? ;)
    50 Bosmer Nightblade
    50 Breton Sorcerer
    50 Dunmer Dragonknight
    50 Imperial Templar
    50 Khajit Nightblade
    50 Imperial Dragonknight
    50 Altmer Sorcerer
    50 Argonian Templar

    Discussions of Interest:
    Class Balance in 1.6
    Quest Choices
    Request to Reinstate Night's Silence and Dark Stalker stacking
  • ShadowscaleSithis
    ShadowscaleSithis
    ✭✭✭
    I have read other posts and seen the complaints. When I see people crying about it being faster than a horse this is what I see -- Someone riding a horse in Cyridil not noticing the NB and all of a sudden --AMBUSH skill gets used. Whaa this vamp is faster than a horse.

    As far as being "to fast" I am sure these are the crafting collectors crying because using this set as a vampire get them there faster than someone without this set.

    Since we are going to be changing things that others cry about, I officially am crying that as a NB I can not see another NB in stealth or invisible people!! I mean, I know what to look for so I should get a greater detection area.

    BTW I want this passive and set working as it was before this last update.
  • Sunrock
    Sunrock
    ✭✭✭
    Atarax wrote: »
    Sunrock wrote: »

    What? You mean thats not the case way they nerfed it? Yea that might be true. But it still had to be nerfed for the justice system anyway. Because it would be too *** super easy to avoid detection from guards and players if you have a high wanted status. Anyone with a normal IQ have to see that.

    Hi, you do realize that Night's Silence doesn't affect detect radius right? It only makes you move faster.

    Also, as mentioned frequently, if someone spots you, you don't get to keep the speed bonus, it drops off. Soooo, Justice system and Night's Silence are pretty unrelated all things considered.

    I guess your vaunted IQ missed that part? ;)

    Have you ever played a stealth game ever? Like Thief or what ever? The faster sneek speed you have the less attention you need to spend on time patrols right. Sneek speed same of a 75% speed horse is going to make things a billion times easer to avoid NPCs especially but also players.

    Get more player experience from allot more different games before you comment next time. And don't only see how things can benefit your own game play.
    Edited by Sunrock on September 22, 2014 9:15PM
  • Atarax
    Atarax
    ✭✭✭
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Blah blah, let me post irrelevant and incorrect information.

    Lol, mate, now I'm not sure if you're simply trolling, or if you actually think this way. I'll respond to your points, but you may want to quit while you're.... behind? You're not looking very rational at the moment.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Have you ever played a stealth game ever?

    Yes.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Like Thief or what ever?

    This is ESO, not Thief. The mechanics in ESO are what we're talking about. You're drawing a false parallel here.

    Also, no one has any information on how the justice system will function, but if you're expecting it to work like Thief, you're probably going to be disappointed. Also, basing your argument around that... speculation much?

    How about you come back when we have actual details on the justice system. However, based on current ESO mechanics, I imagine it will be quite different than Thief.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Sneek speed same of a 75% speed horse

    Here is where it becomes glaringly obvious you haven't read the thread and don't know what you're talking about. To reiterate:
    Atarax wrote: »
    Standard horse, no sprint, maxed out apples: +65% =165%
    Fast horse, no sprint, maxed out apples:+75% =175%
    Fast horse, maxed out apples, sprint: +75%+25%=200%

    Dark stalker + stealth + night's silence: 160%

    Adding to that (although I don't think it's really needed for someone with such a high IQ):

    Standard horse, maxed apples, sprinting: +65%+25% =190%

    So... 160% vs. 200%. With your high IQ, you can do basic math right? 160% is not the "same as" 200%
    Sunrock wrote: »

    is going to make things a billion times easer

    [sarcasm] A billion times! OMG! QUICK, BRING OUT THE NERF BAT! [/sarcasm]
    Sunrock wrote: »

    to avoid NPCs especially but also players.

    Incorrect. Stealth detection in ESO (not Thief, please try to remember what game we're playing) works as follows:

    -Crouch
    -Wait
    -Go into stealth
    -In stealth, you can be detected by 1) players running magelight nearby and you getting within Magelight radius 2) players using a detect potion 3) those who come within your stealth radius
    -If you are spotted, you lose any speed bonuses

    Stealth speed has nothing to do with how easily players detect you. The only thing that affects your stealth detection radius is your passives and armor traits that affect stealth radius.

    What I think you're trying to get at is that if you can move faster, if someone is chasing you, you can move away faster. (So, effectively, you want it to be easier to catch people in stealth).

    However, in order for someone to be chasing you, they have to have spotted you first. Or are you saying that players are going to be running around the city randomly looking for stealth people with a bounty? Good luck with that.

    Either way, if they spot you, you lose the speed bonus, so this nerf was not needed to accomplish your goal. You just needed to spot someone.

    Also, you'll note, in ESO, guards may walk a bit, but most are stationary. So I can move at a crawl and still avoid them. Guards are irrelevant. Even if they patrol at a walk with Justice, they're still irrelevant.

    So it doesn't matter if I'm moving at sprint speed (possible even currently) or 160% movement speed.

    However, I will point out that, EVEN IF IT MATTERED, which it doesn't, everyone in the game had access to night's silence and dark stalker. So if you really really want to focus your game play on trying to catch those damn sneaky fast stealthy types by running around randomly (winning strategy that), all you had to do is pick up the armor, become a vampire, and you'd be on equal footing with them. There was nothing stopping you.
    Sunrock wrote: »
    And don't only see how things can benefit your own game play.

    Nights silence set is obtainable by anyone. Vampire is obtainable by anyone. Those who cried for nerfs on this nerfed everyone, including themselves.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Get more player experience from allot more different games before you comment next time.

    Heh, how about you learn how the mechanics work in THIS game, learn how the mechanics will work with Justice once details are released, and then come back and we'll (hopefully, although I have my doubts even that would make it possible) be able to have a rational conversation based on something other than speculation.

    Until then, there's no point in us discussing this further.
    Edited by Atarax on September 24, 2014 10:06AM
    50 Bosmer Nightblade
    50 Breton Sorcerer
    50 Dunmer Dragonknight
    50 Imperial Templar
    50 Khajit Nightblade
    50 Imperial Dragonknight
    50 Altmer Sorcerer
    50 Argonian Templar

    Discussions of Interest:
    Class Balance in 1.6
    Quest Choices
    Request to Reinstate Night's Silence and Dark Stalker stacking
  • Sunrock
    Sunrock
    ✭✭✭
    Atarax wrote: »
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Blah blah, let me post irrelevant and incorrect information.

    Lol, mate, now I'm not sure if you're simply trolling, or if you actually think this way. I'll respond to your points, but you may want to quit while you're.... behind? You're not looking very rational at the moment.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Have you ever played a stealth game ever?

    Yes.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Like Thief or what ever?

    This is ESO, not Thief. The mechanics in ESO are what we're talking about. You're drawing a false parallel here.

    Also, no one has any information on how the justice system will function, but if you're expecting it to work like Thief, you're probably going to be disappointed. Also, basing your argument around that... speculation much?

    How about you come back when we have actual details on the justice system. However, based on current ESO mechanics, I imagine it will be quite different than Thief.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Sneek speed same of a 75% speed horse

    Here is where it becomes glaringly obvious you haven't read the thread and don't know what you're talking about. To reiterate:
    Atarax wrote: »
    Standard horse, no sprint, maxed out apples: +65% =165%
    Fast horse, no sprint, maxed out apples:+75% =175%
    Fast horse, maxed out apples, sprint: +75%+25%=200%

    Dark stalker + stealth + night's silence: 160%

    Adding to that (although I don't think it's really needed for someone with such a high IQ):

    Standard horse, maxed apples, sprinting: +65%+25% =190%

    So... 160% vs. 200%. With your high IQ, you can do basic math right? 160% is not the "same as" 200%
    Sunrock wrote: »

    is going to make things a billion times easer

    [sarcasm] A billion times! OMG! QUICK, BRING OUT THE NERF BAT! [/sarcasm]
    Sunrock wrote: »

    to avoid NPCs especially but also players.

    Incorrect. Stealth detection in ESO (not Thief, please try to remember what game we're playing) works as follows:

    -Crouch
    -Wait
    -Go into stealth
    -In stealth, you can be detected by 1) players running magelight nearby and you getting within Magelight radius 2) players using a detect potion 3) those who come within your stealth radius
    -If you are spotted, you lose any speed bonuses

    Stealth speed has nothing to do with how easily players detect you. The only thing that affects your stealth detection radius is your passives and armor traits that affect stealth radius.

    What I think you're trying to get at is that if you can move faster, if someone is chasing you, you can move away faster. (So, effectively, you want it to be easier to catch people in stealth).

    However, in order for someone to be chasing you, they have to have spotted you first. Or are you saying that players are going to be running around the city randomly looking for stealth people with a bounty? Good luck with that.

    Either way, if they spot you, you lose the speed bonus, so this nerf was not needed to accomplish your goal. You just needed to spot someone.

    Also, you'll note, in ESO, guards may walk a bit, but most are stationary. So I can move at a crawl and still avoid them. Guards are irrelevant. Even if they patrol at a walk with Justice, they're still irrelevant.

    So it doesn't matter if I'm moving at sprint speed (possible even currently) or 160% movement speed.

    However, I will point out that, EVEN IF IT MATTERED, which it doesn't, everyone in the game had access to night's silence and dark stalker. So if you really really want to focus your game play on trying to catch those damn sneaky fast stealthy types by running around randomly (winning strategy that), all you had to do is pick up the armor, become a vampire, and you'd be on equal footing with them. There was nothing stopping you.
    Sunrock wrote: »
    And don't only see how things can benefit your own game play.

    Nights silence set is obtainable by anyone. Vampire is obtainable by anyone. Those who cried for nerfs on this nerfed everyone, including themselves.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Get more player experience from allot more different games before you comment next time.

    Heh, how about you learn how the mechanics work in THIS game, learn how the mechanics will work with Justice once details are released, and then come back and we'll (hopefully, although I have my doubts even that would make it possible) be able to have a rational conversation based on something other than speculation.

    Until then, there's no point in us discussing this further.

    You're really stupid as you cant see that stealth speed makes it easer to get out of some ones detection radius allot faster. It's so *** obvious a 5 year old should get it... and stealth detection when close is the same in Thief as in EOS. Well not the same distance but the same game mechanics. And instead of magelight you have torches in Theif so its a good compare.
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sunrock wrote: »
    Atarax wrote: »
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Blah blah, let me post irrelevant and incorrect information.

    Lol, mate, now I'm not sure if you're simply trolling, or if you actually think this way. I'll respond to your points, but you may want to quit while you're.... behind? You're not looking very rational at the moment.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Have you ever played a stealth game ever?

    Yes.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Like Thief or what ever?

    This is ESO, not Thief. The mechanics in ESO are what we're talking about. You're drawing a false parallel here.

    Also, no one has any information on how the justice system will function, but if you're expecting it to work like Thief, you're probably going to be disappointed. Also, basing your argument around that... speculation much?

    How about you come back when we have actual details on the justice system. However, based on current ESO mechanics, I imagine it will be quite different than Thief.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Sneek speed same of a 75% speed horse

    Here is where it becomes glaringly obvious you haven't read the thread and don't know what you're talking about. To reiterate:
    Atarax wrote: »
    Standard horse, no sprint, maxed out apples: +65% =165%
    Fast horse, no sprint, maxed out apples:+75% =175%
    Fast horse, maxed out apples, sprint: +75%+25%=200%

    Dark stalker + stealth + night's silence: 160%

    Adding to that (although I don't think it's really needed for someone with such a high IQ):

    Standard horse, maxed apples, sprinting: +65%+25% =190%

    So... 160% vs. 200%. With your high IQ, you can do basic math right? 160% is not the "same as" 200%
    Sunrock wrote: »

    is going to make things a billion times easer

    [sarcasm] A billion times! OMG! QUICK, BRING OUT THE NERF BAT! [/sarcasm]
    Sunrock wrote: »

    to avoid NPCs especially but also players.

    Incorrect. Stealth detection in ESO (not Thief, please try to remember what game we're playing) works as follows:

    -Crouch
    -Wait
    -Go into stealth
    -In stealth, you can be detected by 1) players running magelight nearby and you getting within Magelight radius 2) players using a detect potion 3) those who come within your stealth radius
    -If you are spotted, you lose any speed bonuses

    Stealth speed has nothing to do with how easily players detect you. The only thing that affects your stealth detection radius is your passives and armor traits that affect stealth radius.

    What I think you're trying to get at is that if you can move faster, if someone is chasing you, you can move away faster. (So, effectively, you want it to be easier to catch people in stealth).

    However, in order for someone to be chasing you, they have to have spotted you first. Or are you saying that players are going to be running around the city randomly looking for stealth people with a bounty? Good luck with that.

    Either way, if they spot you, you lose the speed bonus, so this nerf was not needed to accomplish your goal. You just needed to spot someone.

    Also, you'll note, in ESO, guards may walk a bit, but most are stationary. So I can move at a crawl and still avoid them. Guards are irrelevant. Even if they patrol at a walk with Justice, they're still irrelevant.

    So it doesn't matter if I'm moving at sprint speed (possible even currently) or 160% movement speed.

    However, I will point out that, EVEN IF IT MATTERED, which it doesn't, everyone in the game had access to night's silence and dark stalker. So if you really really want to focus your game play on trying to catch those damn sneaky fast stealthy types by running around randomly (winning strategy that), all you had to do is pick up the armor, become a vampire, and you'd be on equal footing with them. There was nothing stopping you.
    Sunrock wrote: »
    And don't only see how things can benefit your own game play.

    Nights silence set is obtainable by anyone. Vampire is obtainable by anyone. Those who cried for nerfs on this nerfed everyone, including themselves.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Get more player experience from allot more different games before you comment next time.

    Heh, how about you learn how the mechanics work in THIS game, learn how the mechanics will work with Justice once details are released, and then come back and we'll (hopefully, although I have my doubts even that would make it possible) be able to have a rational conversation based on something other than speculation.

    Until then, there's no point in us discussing this further.

    You're really stupid as you cant see that stealth speed makes it easer to get out of some ones detection radius allot faster. It's so *** obvious a 5 year old should get it... and stealth detection when close is the same in Thief as in EOS. Well not the same distance but the same game mechanics. And instead of magelight you have torches in Theif so its a good compare.

    so you revert to calling him and the rest of us stupid because you are not able to proove you are correct?
    the fact remains that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with nightblades having the speeds we had with stacked bonuses, it never will be,
    the fact also remains that sorcerers had and still do have Much faster speeds Including stun and Damage effects with that bolt escape.

    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
  • Sunrock
    Sunrock
    ✭✭✭
    Sunrock wrote: »
    Atarax wrote: »
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Blah blah, let me post irrelevant and incorrect information.

    Lol, mate, now I'm not sure if you're simply trolling, or if you actually think this way. I'll respond to your points, but you may want to quit while you're.... behind? You're not looking very rational at the moment.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Have you ever played a stealth game ever?

    Yes.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Like Thief or what ever?

    This is ESO, not Thief. The mechanics in ESO are what we're talking about. You're drawing a false parallel here.

    Also, no one has any information on how the justice system will function, but if you're expecting it to work like Thief, you're probably going to be disappointed. Also, basing your argument around that... speculation much?

    How about you come back when we have actual details on the justice system. However, based on current ESO mechanics, I imagine it will be quite different than Thief.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Sneek speed same of a 75% speed horse

    Here is where it becomes glaringly obvious you haven't read the thread and don't know what you're talking about. To reiterate:
    Atarax wrote: »
    Standard horse, no sprint, maxed out apples: +65% =165%
    Fast horse, no sprint, maxed out apples:+75% =175%
    Fast horse, maxed out apples, sprint: +75%+25%=200%

    Dark stalker + stealth + night's silence: 160%

    Adding to that (although I don't think it's really needed for someone with such a high IQ):

    Standard horse, maxed apples, sprinting: +65%+25% =190%

    So... 160% vs. 200%. With your high IQ, you can do basic math right? 160% is not the "same as" 200%
    Sunrock wrote: »

    is going to make things a billion times easer

    [sarcasm] A billion times! OMG! QUICK, BRING OUT THE NERF BAT! [/sarcasm]
    Sunrock wrote: »

    to avoid NPCs especially but also players.

    Incorrect. Stealth detection in ESO (not Thief, please try to remember what game we're playing) works as follows:

    -Crouch
    -Wait
    -Go into stealth
    -In stealth, you can be detected by 1) players running magelight nearby and you getting within Magelight radius 2) players using a detect potion 3) those who come within your stealth radius
    -If you are spotted, you lose any speed bonuses

    Stealth speed has nothing to do with how easily players detect you. The only thing that affects your stealth detection radius is your passives and armor traits that affect stealth radius.

    What I think you're trying to get at is that if you can move faster, if someone is chasing you, you can move away faster. (So, effectively, you want it to be easier to catch people in stealth).

    However, in order for someone to be chasing you, they have to have spotted you first. Or are you saying that players are going to be running around the city randomly looking for stealth people with a bounty? Good luck with that.

    Either way, if they spot you, you lose the speed bonus, so this nerf was not needed to accomplish your goal. You just needed to spot someone.

    Also, you'll note, in ESO, guards may walk a bit, but most are stationary. So I can move at a crawl and still avoid them. Guards are irrelevant. Even if they patrol at a walk with Justice, they're still irrelevant.

    So it doesn't matter if I'm moving at sprint speed (possible even currently) or 160% movement speed.

    However, I will point out that, EVEN IF IT MATTERED, which it doesn't, everyone in the game had access to night's silence and dark stalker. So if you really really want to focus your game play on trying to catch those damn sneaky fast stealthy types by running around randomly (winning strategy that), all you had to do is pick up the armor, become a vampire, and you'd be on equal footing with them. There was nothing stopping you.
    Sunrock wrote: »
    And don't only see how things can benefit your own game play.

    Nights silence set is obtainable by anyone. Vampire is obtainable by anyone. Those who cried for nerfs on this nerfed everyone, including themselves.
    Sunrock wrote: »

    Get more player experience from allot more different games before you comment next time.

    Heh, how about you learn how the mechanics work in THIS game, learn how the mechanics will work with Justice once details are released, and then come back and we'll (hopefully, although I have my doubts even that would make it possible) be able to have a rational conversation based on something other than speculation.

    Until then, there's no point in us discussing this further.

    You're really stupid as you cant see that stealth speed makes it easer to get out of some ones detection radius allot faster. It's so *** obvious a 5 year old should get it... and stealth detection when close is the same in Thief as in EOS. Well not the same distance but the same game mechanics. And instead of magelight you have torches in Theif so its a good compare.

    so you revert to calling him and the rest of us stupid because you are not able to proove you are correct?
    the fact remains that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with nightblades having the speeds we had with stacked bonuses, it never will be,
    the fact also remains that sorcerers had and still do have Much faster speeds Including stun and Damage effects with that bolt escape.

    Ok lets just turn this into numbers so you get it.

    For an example. You want to loot a barrel and every 10 sec a guard pass buy sad barrel. From your hiding spot it will take you with a seed of X 5 sec to get to sad barrel and loot it. That means you have exactly 10 sec to get back to your hiding spot, so you need to time the theft exactly. Now if you have sneak speed of X*2 it will take you 2.5 sec to get to the barrel and loot it 5 sec in total to avoid detection. This gives you 5 sec to spare, so no need to time the guard exactly.

    Now what is easer? To have less time to loot something to avoid detection or more time? I think it's easer to have more time to avoid detection and the less time. Don't you? Or do I need to make some drawings too before you all get it?

    Now if you can have 160% speed in sneak you will be able to move around sooo mush faster then any NPC guard can move, that avoiding detection from stealing things when the justice system is activated will be no challenging what so ever to avoid detection. Being detected by other players will be harder to avoid as you can't 100% predict how they move. But if you can move faster then them while in stealth it will be easier. And the faster you can move in stealth the easer it becomes.

    PS: Not saying NB should not have higher sneek speed then any one else. Just saying that the sneek speed stacked with all the other *** is way too fast to have when the justice system comes. The max sneek speed NB have now is good enough.
    Edited by Sunrock on September 26, 2014 1:32AM
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    so your one and only proof is that you think i can loot a barrel faster then some one who does not have sneak speeds?
    ok lets look at this, 1st of all, the items that gave us sneak speeds was from 2 easy to get items that are available to ALL classes races and peoples.

    1) the night silence set - available to all classes races and people-
    2) vampirism passive in sneak speed -again, available to all classes and races and peoples-

    anyone can do this, as you mentioned someone can loot a barrel quickly without being seen by a guard. so what? anyone can do it.
    the cheating part comes in when the sorcerers use that bolt escape that is incredibly by far way faster then any speeds we ever had in eso and continue to have thier bolt escape yet we nightblades are somehow marked as cheating when i just showed proof that it is not for just nightblades it's for all peoples all races to have those speeds.

    so here we are, once again where im asking you to show proof where the speed increase we had was in some way cheating and i still have not seen you provide any proof to what im asking.
    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
Sign In or Register to comment.