Nightblade's Stealth - Completely Broken? Possibly resolved?

rwross

Kudos to @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ for excellent communication.

One point of clarification from your previous comment. You wrote:

"detection is 10m in the front, 5m to the side, and 0m from behind. An ability that increases detection by 3m, for example, would mean you could see someone 13m in front, 8m to the side, and 3m behind."

I'm not sure what ability I would select actually increases by detection radius :-)

Would you mind providing a similar example but with the assumption that both the racial passive and medium sneak passive are both Max. In that situation, i'd assume the radius would be decreased by something like 3 m +35%

If so, does that mean it should be the following:
Front: 10-(3+3.5) = 2.5
Side: 5-(3+1.75) = .25
Back: 0-(3+0) = 0

Obviously, this calculation assumes that the medium passive reduction is calculated off of the original baseline rather than a new baseline created after being reduced by The 3 m racial passive

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

rwross wrote: »

Kudos to @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ for excellent communication.

One point of clarification from your previous comment. You wrote:

"detection is 10m in the front, 5m to the side, and 0m from behind. An ability that increases detection by 3m, for example, would mean you could see someone 13m in front, 8m to the side, and 3m behind."

I'm not sure what ability I would select actually increases by detection radius :-)

Would you mind providing a similar example but with the assumption that both the racial passive and medium sneak passive are both Max. In that situation, i'd assume the radius would be decreased by something like 3 m +35%

If so, does that mean it should be the following:
Front: 10-(3+3.5) = 2.5
Side: 5-(3+1.75) = .25
Back: 0-(3+0) = 0

Obviously, this calculation assumes that the media acid is calculated off of the original baseline rather than a new baseline created after being reduced by The 3 m racial passive

When she talked about detection increases I think she was referring to skills like magelight that give the caster better detection versus other people.

rwross

Ahh...thanks...

And I hate Mage light :-)

bunnytrix

Thanks for the update.
However..the fact remains...before 1.4 I could sneak up to almost everything from the sides and from behind without the eye opening even a tiny bit...the flat line would stay flat until I opened up..or stayed there for too long...and this is like 1 metre away. This was working perfectly i thought.

Since 1.4 this does not ever happen...the eye begins to open at significantly farther away and it is a lot more difficult to sneak up on anything from the sides or behind. I tested this for many hours last night over and over again. Stealth is just not working as well as it did pre 1.4.

Nazon_Katts

And it still doesn't address the cloak ignoring mobs. Can we have a word on this, please?

neueregel

bunnytrix wrote: »

Thanks for the update.
However..the fact remains...before 1.4 I could sneak up to almost everything from the sides and from behind without the eye opening even a tiny bit...the flat line would stay flat until I opened up..or stayed there for too long...and this is like 1 metre away. This was working perfectly i thought.

Since 1.4 this does not ever happen...the eye begins to open at significantly farther away and it is a lot more difficult to sneak up on anything from the sides or behind. I tested this for many hours last night over and over again. Stealth is just not working as well as it did pre 1.4.

Yes, I confirm this. In the rift before the patch, I was able to sneak up behind two sabres and take on the first one without ever being detected... unless I had too much vodka of course ;/. Now post 1.4, I have to move very very particular if I can sneak at all, and most times I am seen. Now, do I really need to do this to kill these two? no, I can probably take on 6 or 7 I bet. But this is why chose this template, so I can SNEAK! This also happens in many other scenarios where it is more important for my survival to take out that first group member by a sneak attack.

Sablemane

Detection potions. Maybe some mobs have detection passives as well. Some mobs like trolls and lightning bugs seemed to have an easier time detecting me, but not sure if this is due to a mob ability.

Khenarthi

bunnytrix wrote: »

Thanks for the update.
However..the fact remains...before 1.4 I could sneak up to almost everything from the sides and from behind without the eye opening even a tiny bit...the flat line would stay flat until I opened up..or stayed there for too long...and this is like 1 metre away. This was working perfectly i thought.

Since 1.4 this does not ever happen...the eye begins to open at significantly farther away and it is a lot more difficult to sneak up on anything from the sides or behind. I tested this for many hours last night over and over again. Stealth is just not working as well as it did pre 1.4.

I noticed this too. Before update 4 my Khajiit NB (VR10 and fully perked with stealth passives but using light armour) could sneak from behind until she touched the mob, the eye would not even begin to open. Now even from behind, she cannot get that close - a few paces away , and from behind, the eye quickly opens and I am found.

Would it be possible to put my stealth back to where it was, please?

demonlkojipub19_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, I think there might be some confusion as to how stealth and detection works. When you are stealthed, the eye will begin to open very slightly at the same distance no matter what you have equipped. When the eye fully opens is dependent on your passives/items/etc, and this is when you are considered detected. The screenshot that @omniobsessed‌ posted demonstrates this - the eye is slightly open at the same distance in both situations, and that is working correctly with the way the system is designed.

Another thing to note is that the standard detection radius if you are stealthed is 10m in the front, 5m to the side, and 0m from behind. An ability that increases detection by 3m, for example, would mean you could see someone 13m in front, 8m to the side, and 3m behind.

With all that said, many of you are mentioning the eye opening, or when the eye is open. Are you referring to when the eye is fully open and you see the text "detected", or is it when the eye is only slightly open? If the former, it may be a legitimate issue, but if it's the latter, it may just be confusion as to how the system works.

Hope this helps explain things a bit. Let us know if you're continuing to see an issue keeping all these points in mind.

If its 0m from behind, then when at one time you can sneak up on an enemy really close to its back, how do you explain the same type of enemy suddenly attacking you when you get just barely close enough for a 5m range melee attack?

Or, most players even those not using any stealth equipment or items you can't get close enough to even use a 7m attack from the rear at times. The eye suddenly turns full open detected.

And in those cases, the eye is already partially open when you are behind them. What determines when the eye partially opens if a monster isn't even supposed to detect you at 0m from the rear?

I can see 10m being the standard front range, but sometimes the same enemy type will still detect you further. For example, with medium armor stealth detection size being reduced by 35%, that makes the front detection of these enemies drop to 6.5 meters, which I have observed working by being able to sneak in front of them and activate a 7 meter attack. But the same type of enemy will end up seeing me before I get within that 7 meter range. Then there are enemies that seemingly ignore stealth detection bonus, spectres for one example, and will detect you even further than 10m from the front.

Sacadon

Appreciate the information and response!

I am confuzzled still (confused / puzzled) .

I did a few more tests and still cannot find a consistent difference in full detection with or without armor. Here's another vid that is very interesting. Notice I was able to use concealed weapon before detection (100% crit). This time I did leave the crouching position and re-entered before beginning.

I do not use any of the armor sets that give me a speed bonus and removed all weapons too. I do have the Khajit stealthy which appears to be working now, Yay!

Thanks again and hopefully we can figure this one out soon.

BTW, there's been a noticeable uptick in ZOS forum involvement... hopefully others will soon realize the carrot almost always works better than the stick and those using the whining and moaning find a more constructive way to collaborate. I usually have to calm down before posting which does take a while sometimes

GnatB

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, I think there might be some confusion as to how stealth and detection works. When you are stealthed, the eye will begin to open very slightly at the same distance no matter what you have equipped. When the eye fully opens is dependent on your passives/items/etc, and this is when you are considered detected. The screenshot that @omniobsessed‌ posted demonstrates this - the eye is slightly open at the same distance in both situations, and that is working correctly with the way the system is designed.

Another thing to note is that the standard detection radius if you are stealthed is 10m in the front, 5m to the side, and 0m from behind. An ability that increases detection by 3m, for example, would mean you could see someone 13m in front, 8m to the side, and 3m behind.

With all that said, many of you are mentioning the eye opening, or when the eye is open. Are you referring to when the eye is fully open and you see the text "detected", or is it when the eye is only slightly open? If the former, it may be a legitimate issue, but if it's the latter, it may just be confusion as to how the system works.

Hope this helps explain things a bit. Let us know if you're continuing to see an issue keeping all these points in mind.

If its 0m from behind, then when at one time you can sneak up on an enemy really close to its back, how do you explain the same type of enemy suddenly attacking you when you get just barely close enough for a 5m range melee attack?

Or, most players even those not using any stealth equipment or items you can't get close enough to even use a 7m attack from the rear at times. The eye suddenly turns full open detected.

And in those cases, the eye is already partially open when you are behind them. What determines when the eye partially opens if a monster isn't even supposed to detect you at 0m from the rear?

I can see 10m being the standard front range, but sometimes the same enemy type will still detect you further. For example, with medium armor stealth detection size being reduced by 35%, that makes the front detection of these enemies drop to 6.5 meters, which I have observed working by being able to sneak in front of them and activate a 7 meter attack. But the same type of enemy will end up seeing me before I get within that 7 meter range. Then there are enemies that seemingly ignore stealth detection bonus, spectres for one example, and will detect you even further than 10m from the front.

Well, the obvious theory would be that the mob/enemy on the server side isn't actually in the position/facing it appears to be on your client, which is actually fairly standard for MMO's.

Heck, I'm *really* sort of curious how facing for PC's work. My *own* facing isn't even always the same in 3rd vs 1st person modes. No clue what direction anybody else thinks I'm facing. My 1st person facing? My 3rd person? (I actually wouldn't be at all surprised if there *was* no facing in PvP, particularly in regards to stealth.)

Jaxx

Thanks Gina for the detailed explanation. It does explain a few things, but also raises other questions as others have pointed out.

Would you be able to comment on the following?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

When you are stealthed, the eye will begin to open very slightly at the same distance no matter what you have equipped.

This definitely explains the current situation, but as myself and others have noticed, previously the eye would start to open based on your stealth ability (items, etc.) and I'm assuming the ability of your opponent for detection. This was a much better indicator as you could get an idea of when you were getting closer to being detected. The way it is currently, there is no indication if you are nearing detection by a PC or NPC. Is this the intention?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Another thing to note is that the standard detection radius if you are stealthed is 10m in the front, 5m to the side, and 0m from behind. An ability that increases detection by 3m, for example, would mean you could see someone 13m in front, 8m to the side, and 3m behind.

Two questions regarding the way the detection works:
1. Do the detection stats of the opponent apply after the radius reduction stats? I.e. if I have 3m stealth radius reduction and the opponent has 3m detection, do these cancel each other in the "behind" case, or does the reduction apply first (0 - 3 = 0) and then the detection gives 3m from behind, or do they apply simultaneously to still give 0m from behind?
2. As someone else mentioned, do the facing directions match the first person or third person views, or are they more or less the same?

Thanks again. It's good to see some discussion about this since there are many people concerned.

ferzalrwb17_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, I think there might be some confusion as to how stealth and detection works. When you are stealthed, the eye will begin to open very slightly at the same distance no matter what you have equipped.

I think there might be some confusion as to how stealth works NOW because that's not how it worked before.

I've worn light armour and medium armour on the same character I've clocked many, many hours on and the eye partially opened in completely different ways. If that's changed then, yes, there will be some confusion.

As a khajiit NB you used to be able to sneak right up to the back of a mob before the eye would partially open. Now, as you can see from vids etc, you can not.

The partially open eye, I thought, was to serve as a warning that you are in danger of getting into proximity of detection range. And that makes sense. That's useful.

Now you're saying that it's the same whether you've got stealthy passives or not. That makes no sense. That's not useful at all.

Again.. this is all different in 1.4 so if you're just testing only relative to 1.4 then you won't understand why we all know it's broken relative to 1.3 (and before). I would have thought a deliberate change (an awful one) to the stealth mechanic would have warranted some documentation so I can't believe this behaviour is as intended.

Also... mobs aggro, when out of stealth, from further away and detect and trigger partial eye from further away too. Unrelated?

Palidon

9/23/14 Hotfix - Stealth Fixes [COMPLETE]

ZOS as far as I am concerned it has not been fixed. Case in point.

Location Khenarth's Roost Temple of Morning Springs

There is a Rune stone that is located up against a high wall at the Springs. Above the wall there are two Harpies that sit there. Prior to Update 4 and the hotfix on 9/23/14 that stated the detection radius was fixed I could approach that Rune while crouched and never be detected by the Harpies. I went to the same location on 9/24 and am still being detected after the hotfix. I wear a full set of medium armor so according to the Improved Sneak Passive I should be getting a 35% detection area decrease. I think that is where the problem ls. The Passive is broken.

Tavore1138

Concur with general opinion.

Prior to the current mess the range at which the eye began to open was reduced by items and skills that reduced detection radius - as would be logical.

However I tested the 'new' method on a bear to see where detection eye was fully opened doing it naked, 3 piece nightshade & 7 piece medium w/o NS. With acknowledgement that this testing is slightly harder to judge the exact distance due to the need to leg it when the bear was raged so i could test against the exact same mob without waiting for respawn... there did not appear to be a noticeable difference in detection ranges between the 3 scenarios.

Sharee

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Concur with general opinion.

Prior to the current mess the range at which the eye began to open was reduced by items and skills that reduced detection radius - as would be logical.

This would actually be very bad. It would mean the better your stealth, the later you would get a warning that an enemy is nearby. Whereas the worse your stealth, the better you would get at knowing there is a (stealthed) enemy nearby.

Basically this would lead to a situation in cyrodiil where an average joe crouching in heavy armor would always get a drop on a dedicated super-sneaky character, because joe's eye started to open while his opponent's did not, and joe would pop a stealth detection potion first.

khele23eb17_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, I think there might be some confusion as to how stealth and detection works. When you are stealthed, the eye will begin to open very slightly at the same distance no matter what you have equipped.

Could you explain what the point of it is then? Whats the rationale behind this design choice?

raglau

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, I think there might be some confusion as to how stealth and detection works. When you are stealthed, the eye will begin to open very slightly at the same distance no matter what you have equipped.

Could you explain what the point of it is then? Whats the rationale behind this design choice?

Indeed, how are we to get meaningful feedback about our exposure? I don't believe this was always the case, was it?

Tavore1138

Sharee wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Concur with general opinion.

Prior to the current mess the range at which the eye began to open was reduced by items and skills that reduced detection radius - as would be logical.

This would actually be very bad. It would mean the better your stealth, the later you would get a warning that an enemy is nearby. Whereas the worse your stealth, the better you would get at knowing there is a (stealthed) enemy nearby.

Basically this would lead to a situation in cyrodiil where an average joe crouching in heavy armor would always get a drop on a dedicated super-sneaky character, because joe's eye started to open while his opponent's did not, and joe would pop a stealth detection potion first.

Only if you miss the point of the eye.

The eye is there to warn when you are in the detection range of something else NOT when there is something for you to detect.

It is not a substitute for using your actual eyes.

If I am in stealth then Joe should not detect me until he is maybe 2m away at which point his eye will start to open.

I on the other hand will detect him at 5m when my eye starts to open.

i will then leap upon Joe with my mighty twin axes, stab him until he pops talons, heals fully and batswarms me to death.

I will be dead but will have struck first

Uncensored1

Here is the best way IMO to fix the NB class... Offer a class respec. I don't know about everyone else but rolling a NB has been the biggest mistake for me. The class is seriously an after-thought and given the chance I would change without question, damn, I'd even pay $ for it!

Sharee

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Concur with general opinion.

Prior to the current mess the range at which the eye began to open was reduced by items and skills that reduced detection radius - as would be logical.

This would actually be very bad. It would mean the better your stealth, the later you would get a warning that an enemy is nearby. Whereas the worse your stealth, the better you would get at knowing there is a (stealthed) enemy nearby.

Basically this would lead to a situation in cyrodiil where an average joe crouching in heavy armor would always get a drop on a dedicated super-sneaky character, because joe's eye started to open while his opponent's did not, and joe would pop a stealth detection potion first.

Only if you miss the point of the eye.

The eye is there to warn when you are in the detection range of something else NOT when there is something for you to detect.

Point or not, the eye effectively acts as stealth detector.

If you make joe's eye start opening before yours, then he will know you are nearby, pop a detection potion, and kill you.

raglau

Sharee wrote: »

.

If you make joe's eye start opening before yours, then he will know you are nearby, pop a detection potion, and kill you.

Yeah, in PvP this is true. The mechanic worked well in old TES PvE and has been carried over, but we do have to consider the enemy AI (human beings) is a lot more intelligent in PvP. Well, in most cases

khele23eb17_ESO

Sharee wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Concur with general opinion.

Prior to the current mess the range at which the eye began to open was reduced by items and skills that reduced detection radius - as would be logical.

This would actually be very bad. It would mean the better your stealth, the later you would get a warning that an enemy is nearby. Whereas the worse your stealth, the better you would get at knowing there is a (stealthed) enemy nearby.

Basically this would lead to a situation in cyrodiil where an average joe crouching in heavy armor would always get a drop on a dedicated super-sneaky character, because joe's eye started to open while his opponent's did not, and joe would pop a stealth detection potion first.

Only if you miss the point of the eye.

The eye is there to warn when you are in the detection range of something else NOT when there is something for you to detect.

Point or not, the eye effectively acts as stealth detector.

If you make joe's eye start opening before yours, then he will know you are nearby, pop a detection potion, and kill you.

Or it simply shouldnt be affected by stealthed characters.

bunnytrix

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, I think there might be some confusion as to how stealth and detection works. When you are stealthed, the eye will begin to open very slightly at the same distance no matter what you have equipped. When the eye fully opens is dependent on your passives/items/etc, and this is when you are considered detected. The screenshot that @omniobsessed‌ posted demonstrates this - the eye is slightly open at the same distance in both situations, and that is working correctly with the way the system is designed.

Another thing to note is that the standard detection radius if you are stealthed is 10m in the front, 5m to the side, and 0m from behind. An ability that increases detection by 3m, for example, would mean you could see someone 13m in front, 8m to the side, and 3m behind.

With all that said, many of you are mentioning the eye opening, or when the eye is open. Are you referring to when the eye is fully open and you see the text "detected", or is it when the eye is only slightly open? If the former, it may be a legitimate issue, but if it's the latter, it may just be confusion as to how the system works.

Hope this helps explain things a bit. Let us know if you're continuing to see an issue keeping all these points in mind.

I just re read this...and I'm afraid this is not how stealth worked before 1.4.
So are you telling us in a roundabout way that stealth was changed in 1.4? Before that, all sneaking NBs will tell you that you could sneak up to almost everything without the eye even opening a fraction, the flat line would stay flat. Now it begins to open at much farther away, no matter what your passives/equipment/abilities are.
Stealth completely changed in 1.4. Either detection radius has changed, or passives have changed, or stealth is just broken...I do not know but it is definitely a lot worse. To me it feels like something in the patch has totally broken stealth. It feels very different now. I used to be very confident sneaking up to a mob knowing I would be undetected...now its hit and miss...mostly miss.. as everything detects you at much greater distances. To me this is a huge issue as I play my NB as a very sneaky one..I am always in stealth unless I am on horseback. I find it very worrying that the devs are not aware of this or are refusing to acknowledge it. I'll repeat myself because it is the core ability of a LOT of players....stealth does not work as it did before 1.4...no matter what passives you have...detection radius is far greater.

redferne.requiemneb18_ESO

bunnytrix wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, I think there might be some confusion as to how stealth and detection works. When you are stealthed, the eye will begin to open very slightly at the same distance no matter what you have equipped. When the eye fully opens is dependent on your passives/items/etc, and this is when you are considered detected. The screenshot that @omniobsessed‌ posted demonstrates this - the eye is slightly open at the same distance in both situations, and that is working correctly with the way the system is designed.

Another thing to note is that the standard detection radius if you are stealthed is 10m in the front, 5m to the side, and 0m from behind. An ability that increases detection by 3m, for example, would mean you could see someone 13m in front, 8m to the side, and 3m behind.

With all that said, many of you are mentioning the eye opening, or when the eye is open. Are you referring to when the eye is fully open and you see the text "detected", or is it when the eye is only slightly open? If the former, it may be a legitimate issue, but if it's the latter, it may just be confusion as to how the system works.

Hope this helps explain things a bit. Let us know if you're continuing to see an issue keeping all these points in mind.

I just re read this...and I'm afraid this is not how stealth worked before 1.4.
So are you telling us in a roundabout way that stealth was changed in 1.4? Before that, all sneaking NBs will tell you that you could sneak up to almost everything without the eye even opening a fraction, the flat line would stay flat. Now it begins to open at much farther away, no matter what your passives/equipment/abilities are.
Stealth completely changed in 1.4. Either detection radius has changed, or passives have changed, or stealth is just broken...I do not know but it is definitely a lot worse. To me it feels like something in the patch has totally broken stealth. It feels very different now. I used to be very confident sneaking up to a mob knowing I would be undetected...now its hit and miss...mostly miss.. as everything detects you at much greater distances. To me this is a huge issue as I play my NB as a very sneaky one..I am always in stealth unless I am on horseback. I find it very worrying that the devs are not aware of this or are refusing to acknowledge it. I'll repeat myself because it is the core ability of a LOT of players....stealth does not work as it did before 1.4...no matter what passives you have...detection radius is far greater.

I 100% agree.

polar

Tested this last night....Before 1.4, I was able to sneak up to players from enemy factions and basically touch them (this was tested with a friend in another faction) before I was detected- from the back and the sides. I am now detected much sooner. So, ignoring the change to how the eye works (and it did change... ) this was tested in Cyrodiil against a live player that does not need the eye to tell them if they can see me or not.

I have also tested known routes that I used to travel and sneak through. I am now being detected where I was never detected before. SNEAKING HAS BEEN NERFED. Either unintentionally (someone messed up) or intentionally (someone is being dishonest).

Now, it is a bit better after the hotfix, but still not what it was pre-1.4

I really think that there may be someone among the devs that just doesn't like nightblades for some reason.. there is no other logical explanation for the series of broken skills/passives and stealth nerfs.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

It does start to feel personal after awhile. I suspect indifference though.

It's possible none of the devs really like the class idea, and therefore are not personally invested in making the class work.

neueregel

ZOS_GinaBruno, you cant come here and tell us nothing has changed an try to 'explain' to us how it works. Most of us here posting play this player type every day for hours. My NB is my main player that I started april 1. We all are saying the same thing. Something changed. We can no longer sneak the way we have prior to 1.4. Telling us how it works doesn't change the fact that it doesn't work like it did. Most of us all know 'how it works' by now... I mean that is like a mechanic telling a driver, "let me tell you how the brake works. You press your foot on the brake pedal, and the car will slow down." I then tell the mechanic, I know this, but before I came in to have my brakes 'fixed' by you, it DID slow down... now it DOESN'T...

AriBoh

Add my voice to those saying stealth is not working. The hot fix has made it so its possible to sneak up on something again but to nowhere near the way you could before 1.4.

deadlock007

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Add my voice to those saying stealth is not working. The hot fix has made it so its possible to sneak up on something again but to nowhere near the way you could before 1.4.

Mine too. It’s getting really crowded under this rug devs…..