How killing NPC's COULD be a good idea.

Holycannoli

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

When he got killed in the video it said "bounty removed"

Yep, that's why I think when you're "killed" by a guard or player when you have a bounty on you for murder you shouldn't be killed but more like subdued and then thrown in jail or the stocks in the city for a predetermined amount of time.

Or something like that.

moxiesauce

How did other games with this type of system work it out?

Holycannoli

moxiesauce wrote: »

How did other games with this type of system work it out?

Hmm I only remember one other MMO that had a system even similar to this. It was a tiny MMO, and if you were caught your character was locked in a prison in the main town. It was just a large open cage. You could shout from it but you couldn't leave, and the timer only ticked down when that character was logged on.

Are there other MMOs that had a system similar to what the ESO devs proposed?

SFBryan18

You know, it's exactly these kinds of assumptions and high expectations that leave people unsatisfied when they finally get the real changes. And it's the people who talk about stuff which they have no clue about who spread false information.

Audigy

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

This is NOT a solo game!

This has only worked in every other Elder Scrolls game BECAUSE they were SOLO, offline games.

That means if I chose to commit a crime or kill some NPC, that is MY CHOICE, and I accept the consequences to my game.

In an online game I have NO CHOICE, and people will just go around slaughtering everything that talks just to grief people.

No more atmospheric NPC's. That sounds like total fail to me.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for a justice system. I think elements of it could be very cool if executed correctly. But allowing bored griefers another way to tick people off by killing all the atmospheric NPC's the second they spawn is just a really dumb idea.

Stop trying to copy every little thing from the SOLO ES games.

How about this. Let me mod the game like I did for all the other ES games. I'll just give myself levitate and the bow of 1000 deaths and 1-shot every veteran dungeon boss with my awesome skillxorz!

/sarcasm

But you get my point. Not everything that works in a solo game works/belongs in an online game.

This is a really bad idea and many people like me that enjoy the atmospheric NPC banter and would take personal responsibility not to go around like a bored child killing everything may end up un-subbing over this.

Queue all the selfish trolls telling me I should because I don't deserve to play the game without griefers constantly killing the content.

Alien, you always shoot before you even know your target...

First of all, this is not an ES thing. Its an MMO thing. Since Ultima we could kill or raid towns, this isn't new or bound to ES.

We even could do it at WOW, before the care bears started to tell us how MMOs work and that we were only allowed to kill guards or other players in BGs.

Secondly,

if players can not kill important NPC´s, then the whole justice system is going to be dead. Why should someone risk a bounty with all the consequences for a totally pointless NPC?

Last but not least,

players who commit a crime will be flagged for pvp, attacked by guards and this will stop griefing. Just keep in mind, if you cant pay your bounty of 10.000 gold then you will be flagged forever!

I don't think it will be possible to play being constantly flagged, after all the banks are in town and if you cant access those due your bounty, you are pretty much screwed

"Just keep in mind, if you cant pay your bounty of 10.000 gold then you will be flagged forever!" Nope... You get killed by a guard your "bounty" goes away.

This is not how they explained it.

The guy who did present it clearly said "either you run or you pay". If you get caught and pay you will be stripped of your items but not armor and weapon and you stay flagged until you pay the bounty.

There is no word about going into prison or bounty being removed upon kill. Go check the video yourself if you don't believe me

You can either res at a wayshrine or by using a shard.

Unless you have a source to back up your claim, I stick to what I heard at Quakecon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnKfZPz_bXk

DeLindsay

This isn't remotely a bad idea. As many posters have eluded to it's likely ZoS will have it either instanced to your character like many containers are now or that the only killable NPC's will be the ones of no importance, the "crowd" if you will. I seriously doubt ZoS would implement killing of quest NPC's or Bankers, Enchanters, Mages in the Mage's Guild, city traders, etc. Basically any of the interactable NPC's that allow you to purchase or deal with inventory will likely be immune.

moxiesauce

Lol the video didn't even say bounty removed. LOL @‌

Also noted bounties are for cities, so assuming if you go to another town you'll be able to access the bank and all that while still holding a bounty.

Csub

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Xnemesis wrote: »

He killed 7 npcs and had a 70k plus bounty I really don't think people want to pay gold just to grief someone.

You dont pay the gold... ROFL.. you just go to jail or die trying to run...

You really think they would implement such a stupid system? "Oh look, I have over a hundred thousand gold of bounty on my head, I will just jump off this cliff and die and it's like nothing happened ".
What's the risk then when you become a criminal? Almost nothing. It would be abused badly. And you seem to write it several times as if it was a fact but we only saw some early alpha footage. And I think they didn't mention/show anything about a jail which would make me sad if we didn't have.

I would say that the fine would gradually decrease over time but no way you can avoid a fine.just by getting yourself eaten by skeevers.

tawnyshadowb14_ESO

*Thinks back on the endless Empty small towns in WOW where everyone was dead and quests were impossible to do because of all the NPCs being dead*

Zabus

If you ever played a TES game you know that there's essentials/respawn timers, and this should be no exception.

Westcoast14_ESO

I think the Justice system sounds like a great idea. I'm not sure if ZoS is the kind of developer I would pick to implement that kind of system in a game that's currently built mostly around PvE supplemented by consensual PvP. There are almost too many ways for it to turn into a seething pool of cross community bile and CS misery.

At its core, it's a PvP system with a set of PvP toggles. Flagging in systems like that is always complicated. If healers can gain bounty from assisting, that opens the door to one class of exploits/unintended outcomes. If they can't, it opens the door to another class of exploits/unintended outcomes. ESO has the added twist in that heals are generally not player targeted.

Tabbycat

This one thinks it will only be a problem if M'aiq is not protected from all the violence.

Nazon_Katts

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno Could we get a little more insight on how the Justice System will work in detail and how griefing is prevented (NPC kills / flagging non-combatants / large group fight spam). The given information is too sparse to really make up one's mind and the unknown always is a tad bit uncomfortable. Thank you.

DeLindsay

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno Could we get a little more insight on how the Justice System will work in detail and how griefing is prevented (NPC kills / flagging non-combatants / large group fight spam). The given information is too sparse to really make up one's mind and the unknown always is a tad bit uncomfortable. Thank you.

No reason whatsoever for ZoS to rush to explain in detail anything that's upcoming this soon. People need to chill and just wait.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

God, carebears complaining that they will get griefed because the atmosphere is ruined for them...

That's not griefing. Open world pvp for everyone and then me or someone else camping you at the wayshrine would be griefing.

The game is not just about you and your needs. Some of us want a more interactive environment. Some of us have been chomping at the bit for thieves guild and DB since beta.

You are not even remotely inconvenienced by this.

Animus0724

I think you're way over reacting the the justice system announcement. Seriously I'm pretty sure zos is smart enough to not make every npc killable.

They will probably be NPCs that you can kill that will respawn every hour or so, as well as NPCs you have to kill for some dark brotherhood missions. Just like thieves guild missions might have you looting some nobles home.

So...please calm down

RedTalon

I doubt bankers and quest npcs will be killable after all that would be a huge mistake.

On the other hand remember you can sign up to be a guard and help the guard npcs out, so there will be that also if they are still planning that part, personally think its going to be fun to have criminal pcs and guard pcs going at it.

Csub

Yeah no need to overreact and ask for clarifications about a system that is still a few months away at best and of what we only saw an alpha footage.

NadiusMaximus

Just make the penalty for killing an npc a loss of xp points, like 1000 or so.
That would make you think.

Laura

is a good idea. Most people I know agree.

Csub

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

Just make the penalty for killing an npc a loss of xp points, like 1000 or so.
That would make you think.

I don't think it's a good idea as it's not logical that you get less experienced whenever you perform certain actions.

Besides, max level people wouldn't really care either. A fee, a bounty on one's head and the difficulties in towns as a wanted person is enough.

I wonder if it will work the same way as in Skyrim so if I am wanted in Windhelm for example, I can still walk around in Rifting without being hunted.

jessejardinb14_ESO

I used to play this korean game called Legend of Mir and they had a system where you could pvp anybody outside of safezones. PK(player kill) enough people your name would go red. anyone could attack you, guards would attack you and if you died you'd drop your gear and go to a placed called Penal Colony, far off on this desert map. youd have to wait there for your name to turn yellow so you could leave or try and survive running past the guards. In that game it built a huge community and theres still a massive following. I think with ESO's justice system being more detailed and advanced it'll bring more of a community about and players will actually get to be noticed and singled out. I have no doubt ESO has a way to resolve the numerous problems that could come about such as npc deaths and player bounties. But i think the most important thing is that it'll give an opportunity for players to screw around and have fun in a smaller pvp setting than open world. If only they'd add dueling lol.

Nazon_Katts

DeLindsay wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno Could we get a little more insight on how the Justice System will work in detail and how griefing is prevented (NPC kills / flagging non-combatants / large group fight spam). The given information is too sparse to really make up one's mind and the unknown always is a tad bit uncomfortable. Thank you.

No reason whatsoever for ZoS to rush to explain in detail anything that's upcoming this soon. People need to chill and just wait.

But they don't. With a little more information and reassurance, they might.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

As long as they cant kill quest givers/people and merchants i don't really care who they mow down. If they are permitted to kill quest people and merchants it will be another case of them not learning anything from the games that came before.

Auralia

Iam excited by the justice system and being a klepto am likely to end up a carcass quite a bit. This is just going to make the game more interesting. There may be immune non killable NPC's like Skyrim had, the important crucial ones to the story weren't able to be killed.

NewBlacksmurf

The OP brings up very solid points. Also, it seems that loot and exp would be associated with killing friendly NPCs.

This game is slowly killing itself <pun intended>

ZOS - Guys while we work on endgame maybe we should give customers new content.
- How are those new zones coming along?
- When will we roll out...

Let's try some of the TES features and see how it goes. At least if we mess up the game we will have a month to fix it.



So while people are happy that some of TES features are being added, the majority of us feel that it's not addressing real concerns. Just giving people another distraction like VR levels and Champion levels cause we had to rush the game to pay bills.

Sindala

How many NPC's do you really think you can kill before you become KOS to every guard in a town/city? I'm guessing not that many.
I think some of you are 'over thinking' the system....let's wait till we get more info before we start negative threads.

(yes I said that the new improved positive me)

Hamfast

It seems to me that as your infamy goes up, word would spread until you are KOS in every city/town, sort of the king's 10 most wanted list...

I watched the video and did not see anything to indicate the fine/bounty dropped at all on death...meaning as the crime spree widened, you would lose more and more access to towns...

We do not know what another player gets for killing the criminal scum, if anything, or the cost to the criminal (beyond possible repair bills)...

Perhaps a Bounty Board, again, as a PVE player, the Justice System worries me, it is not really aimed at me, more something to give the PvPers with what is I hope an attempt to not impact the game for us PVE players... Carebears if you like... but then, if you add a bounty board, there could be 2 lists, Players and NPC's, those of us that have no desire to PvP could "Hunt down" an NPC criminal scum instead, giving us a feeling we were included in the new Justice System...

Another option would be loot, Cash and Stolen items are turned in for the bounty, the cash is used to lower the fine, but any bounty paid is added to it, in the case of NPC Criminals, this would slowly (perhaps 5 or 10 deaths) remove that criminal from play... in the case of PC's, if you have 1000 gold on you when you die, that 1000 gold is taken and used to pay down your fine, you return with 0 gold, if you were killed by a player, that gold is turned in, and a bounty paid...lets say 500 gold
so using the example from the Video and you have a 17000 gold price on your head, you have 1000 gold on you... the guards kill you, take your 1000 gold, the price on your head is lowered to 16000... a player kills you and turns it in for the bounty, your fine goes from 17000 to 16500 (1000 paid in, 500 paid out)...Loot could also be several of the items in your pack or on your person... stripping the body so to speak...

On the other hand, some may decide to keep the loot... accepting the bounty from the bounty board is a quest, the turn in should be timed (once you kill the criminal you have X minutes to return) after twice that time, you are considered just another murderer and thief, and twice what you looted is your starting fine.

Phinix1

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Mr.Turtlesworth wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

You dont have to pay the fines, you can run... if you die the fine goes away.

It does?

Did you think they would make it so you could no longer play a char because the fine was too big? You can clearly see in the video after he died because he could not pay the fine he ended up in a jail with no bounty on him.

So grief an entire town for an hour, killing quest NPC's the second they spawn over and over for troll lol's, rack up 100k+ bounty...

Then go die to a crocodile and get off for a 50g repair bill? O.o

Phinix1

OK, as part of the "new spirit of cooperation" I have changed the thread title and topic a bit, to how this new feature could POTENTIALLY be a good thing. Hopefully it isn't too jarring of a shift.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for a justice system. I think elements of it could be very cool if executed correctly. Some things I think might help to put this on the right track:

• Kill-able NPC's are separate from the main NPC's. They are like the random NPC mods for other ES games where they have no unique name or purpose other than to wander the roads and cities and get slaughtered... er... provide ambiance.
• Certain of these NPC's will randomly interact with other anonymous (kill-able) NPC's in a way much like the Radiant AI system in Skyrim. For example, a bully will accost some random shoppers, pickpockets and corrupt authority figures plague the streets, along with wealthy jerks and snobs, all with unique random dialogue interactions. Enough diversity and interaction to cover the gamut of potential alignments, giving both good and bad aligned characters a REASON to want to kill certain NPC's.
• Some sort of mission tie-in to the Thieves and Dark Brotherhood guilds to take out informants, agents, extortionists, competition, or targets of a Sacrament, etc.
• Rather than re-spawn these NPC's will have fear behavior where they will avoid the scene of a crime, and react to murder by running off and hiding. Maybe they come back, maybe not. But other random characters will trickle in eventually.
• Have some sort of gossip dialogue effected by events in the area. (Oh! Dead body! ...only more involved LOL.)
• Have these random NPC's relegated only to certain areas of the town so they won't be in the way and causing too much chatter noise.
• Etc.

I am sure they will do most of these things well. My main fear is that they would make regular NPC's kill-able (quest givers, merchants, etc.) and I really think that would be a bad idea.

Other than that, I look forward to the changes.