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How killing NPC's COULD be a good idea.
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smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »
Griefersmeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »You are wrong, many of us have been griefed, perhaps not by you, but we have been griefed...
I have played a game where leaving town to do anything was a death sentence because PKers were camping the gates, and walking was the only way to go to another town... I have played games where people would train the zone to the gate so anyone who stepped in was almost instantly dead... I have returned to turn in a quest only to find every NPC in the area dead and camped by Alliance toons who would kill them as soon as they spawned... We know what griefers are.
That some of us look at griefing differently then you is just a level of permissiveness, you are more forgiving of bad behavior then others... but bad behavior is bad behavior, some level of it is acceptable, some is not, we add our 2 cents in hopes that we can influence the level of bad behavior acceptability, just like you.
None of the situations listed are going to happen.
How do you know? do you already know how these things will be implemented? Do you already know the future?
The stuff you listed isn't bad behavior, it has nothing to do with my permissiveness. It would be working as intended.
This is the problem, it was working as intended, it was bad behavior and it was acceptable within the game, accepting it as not bad behavior is your permissiveness
If I decide that I should be the only one to be able to kill -anything- in the game, is it griefing if other people are also able to do so? Obviously not, you don't get to redefine griefing and throw it around like everyone who inconviences you ever is one. You are diminshing a word that should be used for serious situations.
Griefing has nothing to do with you being able to something that others can't, it has to do with anyone consciously doing something aimed at making another players game experience less enjoyable, the worse the griefing, the worse the experiance
A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.
A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals
Your assumption is that other people would be killing NPCs with the sole desire to make you unhappy. I am not entirely sure how this could make you unhappy in the first place. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they are doing it to grief you, and when trivial things will "grief" you it stops being griefing and just you expecting everybody to do what you want them to.
Of course people will kill NPCs with the sole desire to make other people unhappy, why wouldn't they? It has happened in every other MMO I played. If the game mechanics allow griefing then players will use those mechanics to grief other players and this is the concern being raised. "Carebears" don't want to be griefed. They don't like their play interrupted by other people who have nothing better to do than try to mess with you and who create this toxic environment that is not pleasant for most people.
So explain to me, then, how killing unessential npcs (the only ones you can kill) will grief you? How does it make the environment toxic?
If that griefs you you are looking to be griefed. You are finding a problem where there is none.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.2 -
Haewk✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »
Griefersmeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »You are wrong, many of us have been griefed, perhaps not by you, but we have been griefed...
I have played a game where leaving town to do anything was a death sentence because PKers were camping the gates, and walking was the only way to go to another town... I have played games where people would train the zone to the gate so anyone who stepped in was almost instantly dead... I have returned to turn in a quest only to find every NPC in the area dead and camped by Alliance toons who would kill them as soon as they spawned... We know what griefers are.
That some of us look at griefing differently then you is just a level of permissiveness, you are more forgiving of bad behavior then others... but bad behavior is bad behavior, some level of it is acceptable, some is not, we add our 2 cents in hopes that we can influence the level of bad behavior acceptability, just like you.
None of the situations listed are going to happen.
How do you know? do you already know how these things will be implemented? Do you already know the future?
The stuff you listed isn't bad behavior, it has nothing to do with my permissiveness. It would be working as intended.
This is the problem, it was working as intended, it was bad behavior and it was acceptable within the game, accepting it as not bad behavior is your permissiveness
If I decide that I should be the only one to be able to kill -anything- in the game, is it griefing if other people are also able to do so? Obviously not, you don't get to redefine griefing and throw it around like everyone who inconviences you ever is one. You are diminshing a word that should be used for serious situations.
Griefing has nothing to do with you being able to something that others can't, it has to do with anyone consciously doing something aimed at making another players game experience less enjoyable, the worse the griefing, the worse the experiance
A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.
A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals
Your assumption is that other people would be killing NPCs with the sole desire to make you unhappy. I am not entirely sure how this could make you unhappy in the first place. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they are doing it to grief you, and when trivial things will "grief" you it stops being griefing and just you expecting everybody to do what you want them to.
Of course people will kill NPCs with the sole desire to make other people unhappy, why wouldn't they? It has happened in every other MMO I played. If the game mechanics allow griefing then players will use those mechanics to grief other players and this is the concern being raised. "Carebears" don't want to be griefed. They don't like their play interrupted by other people who have nothing better to do than try to mess with you and who create this toxic environment that is not pleasant for most people.
So explain to me, then, how killing unessential npcs (the only ones you can kill) will grief you? How does it make the environment toxic?
If that griefs you you are looking to be griefed. You are finding a problem where there is none.
Because you assume the system is designed and will be implemented in a way where griefing is not possible. I don't. In fact, I am willing to bet that the system will be broken when it goes live and griefers will find ways to exploit the system.Edited by Haewk on July 21, 2014 1:06AM3 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »
Griefersmeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »You are wrong, many of us have been griefed, perhaps not by you, but we have been griefed...
I have played a game where leaving town to do anything was a death sentence because PKers were camping the gates, and walking was the only way to go to another town... I have played games where people would train the zone to the gate so anyone who stepped in was almost instantly dead... I have returned to turn in a quest only to find every NPC in the area dead and camped by Alliance toons who would kill them as soon as they spawned... We know what griefers are.
That some of us look at griefing differently then you is just a level of permissiveness, you are more forgiving of bad behavior then others... but bad behavior is bad behavior, some level of it is acceptable, some is not, we add our 2 cents in hopes that we can influence the level of bad behavior acceptability, just like you.
None of the situations listed are going to happen.
How do you know? do you already know how these things will be implemented? Do you already know the future?
The stuff you listed isn't bad behavior, it has nothing to do with my permissiveness. It would be working as intended.
This is the problem, it was working as intended, it was bad behavior and it was acceptable within the game, accepting it as not bad behavior is your permissiveness
If I decide that I should be the only one to be able to kill -anything- in the game, is it griefing if other people are also able to do so? Obviously not, you don't get to redefine griefing and throw it around like everyone who inconviences you ever is one. You are diminshing a word that should be used for serious situations.
Griefing has nothing to do with you being able to something that others can't, it has to do with anyone consciously doing something aimed at making another players game experience less enjoyable, the worse the griefing, the worse the experiance
A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.
A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals
Your assumption is that other people would be killing NPCs with the sole desire to make you unhappy. I am not entirely sure how this could make you unhappy in the first place. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they are doing it to grief you, and when trivial things will "grief" you it stops being griefing and just you expecting everybody to do what you want them to.
Of course people will kill NPCs with the sole desire to make other people unhappy, why wouldn't they? It has happened in every other MMO I played. If the game mechanics allow griefing then players will use those mechanics to grief other players and this is the concern being raised. "Carebears" don't want to be griefed. They don't like their play interrupted by other people who have nothing better to do than try to mess with you and who create this toxic environment that is not pleasant for most people.
So explain to me, then, how killing unessential npcs (the only ones you can kill) will grief you? How does it make the environment toxic?
If that griefs you you are looking to be griefed. You are finding a problem where there is none.
Because you assume the system is designed and will be implemented in a way where griefing is not possible. I don't. In fact, I am willing to bet that the system will be broken when it goes live and griefers will find ways to exploit the system.
No it has been stated that it will be implemented as I said. I am not assuming. As such, I can not figure out how these nonessential NPCs dying will affect your gameplay.
Why do you keep assuming that there is going to be griefing in the first place?Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.2 -
Haewk✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »
Griefersmeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »You are wrong, many of us have been griefed, perhaps not by you, but we have been griefed...
I have played a game where leaving town to do anything was a death sentence because PKers were camping the gates, and walking was the only way to go to another town... I have played games where people would train the zone to the gate so anyone who stepped in was almost instantly dead... I have returned to turn in a quest only to find every NPC in the area dead and camped by Alliance toons who would kill them as soon as they spawned... We know what griefers are.
That some of us look at griefing differently then you is just a level of permissiveness, you are more forgiving of bad behavior then others... but bad behavior is bad behavior, some level of it is acceptable, some is not, we add our 2 cents in hopes that we can influence the level of bad behavior acceptability, just like you.
None of the situations listed are going to happen.
How do you know? do you already know how these things will be implemented? Do you already know the future?
The stuff you listed isn't bad behavior, it has nothing to do with my permissiveness. It would be working as intended.
This is the problem, it was working as intended, it was bad behavior and it was acceptable within the game, accepting it as not bad behavior is your permissiveness
If I decide that I should be the only one to be able to kill -anything- in the game, is it griefing if other people are also able to do so? Obviously not, you don't get to redefine griefing and throw it around like everyone who inconviences you ever is one. You are diminshing a word that should be used for serious situations.
Griefing has nothing to do with you being able to something that others can't, it has to do with anyone consciously doing something aimed at making another players game experience less enjoyable, the worse the griefing, the worse the experiance
A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.
A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals
Your assumption is that other people would be killing NPCs with the sole desire to make you unhappy. I am not entirely sure how this could make you unhappy in the first place. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they are doing it to grief you, and when trivial things will "grief" you it stops being griefing and just you expecting everybody to do what you want them to.
Of course people will kill NPCs with the sole desire to make other people unhappy, why wouldn't they? It has happened in every other MMO I played. If the game mechanics allow griefing then players will use those mechanics to grief other players and this is the concern being raised. "Carebears" don't want to be griefed. They don't like their play interrupted by other people who have nothing better to do than try to mess with you and who create this toxic environment that is not pleasant for most people.
So explain to me, then, how killing unessential npcs (the only ones you can kill) will grief you? How does it make the environment toxic?
If that griefs you you are looking to be griefed. You are finding a problem where there is none.
Because you assume the system is designed and will be implemented in a way where griefing is not possible. I don't. In fact, I am willing to bet that the system will be broken when it goes live and griefers will find ways to exploit the system.
No it has been stated that it will be implemented as I said. I am not assuming. As such, I can not figure out how these nonessential NPCs dying will affect your gameplay.
Why do you keep assuming that there is going to be griefing in the first place?
Because I have played quite a few MMOs.2 -
I hope you can kill NPC's like the one that says "Did you hear? Some Stranger saved King Casimir's life..." otherwise the justice system is a waste...2
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smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »
Griefersmeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »You are wrong, many of us have been griefed, perhaps not by you, but we have been griefed...
I have played a game where leaving town to do anything was a death sentence because PKers were camping the gates, and walking was the only way to go to another town... I have played games where people would train the zone to the gate so anyone who stepped in was almost instantly dead... I have returned to turn in a quest only to find every NPC in the area dead and camped by Alliance toons who would kill them as soon as they spawned... We know what griefers are.
That some of us look at griefing differently then you is just a level of permissiveness, you are more forgiving of bad behavior then others... but bad behavior is bad behavior, some level of it is acceptable, some is not, we add our 2 cents in hopes that we can influence the level of bad behavior acceptability, just like you.
None of the situations listed are going to happen.
How do you know? do you already know how these things will be implemented? Do you already know the future?
The stuff you listed isn't bad behavior, it has nothing to do with my permissiveness. It would be working as intended.
This is the problem, it was working as intended, it was bad behavior and it was acceptable within the game, accepting it as not bad behavior is your permissiveness
If I decide that I should be the only one to be able to kill -anything- in the game, is it griefing if other people are also able to do so? Obviously not, you don't get to redefine griefing and throw it around like everyone who inconviences you ever is one. You are diminshing a word that should be used for serious situations.
Griefing has nothing to do with you being able to something that others can't, it has to do with anyone consciously doing something aimed at making another players game experience less enjoyable, the worse the griefing, the worse the experiance
A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.
A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals
Your assumption is that other people would be killing NPCs with the sole desire to make you unhappy. I am not entirely sure how this could make you unhappy in the first place. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they are doing it to grief you, and when trivial things will "grief" you it stops being griefing and just you expecting everybody to do what you want them to.
Of course people will kill NPCs with the sole desire to make other people unhappy, why wouldn't they? It has happened in every other MMO I played. If the game mechanics allow griefing then players will use those mechanics to grief other players and this is the concern being raised. "Carebears" don't want to be griefed. They don't like their play interrupted by other people who have nothing better to do than try to mess with you and who create this toxic environment that is not pleasant for most people.
So explain to me, then, how killing unessential npcs (the only ones you can kill) will grief you? How does it make the environment toxic?
If that griefs you you are looking to be griefed. You are finding a problem where there is none.
Because you assume the system is designed and will be implemented in a way where griefing is not possible. I don't. In fact, I am willing to bet that the system will be broken when it goes live and griefers will find ways to exploit the system.
No it has been stated that it will be implemented as I said. I am not assuming. As such, I can not figure out how these nonessential NPCs dying will affect your gameplay.
Why do you keep assuming that there is going to be griefing in the first place?
Because I have played quite a few MMOs.
and as such you are assuming the way they have stated they will implement it is entirely different than they actually will.
Yea that makes sense.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.1 -
Haewk✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »
Griefersmeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »You are wrong, many of us have been griefed, perhaps not by you, but we have been griefed...
I have played a game where leaving town to do anything was a death sentence because PKers were camping the gates, and walking was the only way to go to another town... I have played games where people would train the zone to the gate so anyone who stepped in was almost instantly dead... I have returned to turn in a quest only to find every NPC in the area dead and camped by Alliance toons who would kill them as soon as they spawned... We know what griefers are.
That some of us look at griefing differently then you is just a level of permissiveness, you are more forgiving of bad behavior then others... but bad behavior is bad behavior, some level of it is acceptable, some is not, we add our 2 cents in hopes that we can influence the level of bad behavior acceptability, just like you.
None of the situations listed are going to happen.
How do you know? do you already know how these things will be implemented? Do you already know the future?
The stuff you listed isn't bad behavior, it has nothing to do with my permissiveness. It would be working as intended.
This is the problem, it was working as intended, it was bad behavior and it was acceptable within the game, accepting it as not bad behavior is your permissiveness
If I decide that I should be the only one to be able to kill -anything- in the game, is it griefing if other people are also able to do so? Obviously not, you don't get to redefine griefing and throw it around like everyone who inconviences you ever is one. You are diminshing a word that should be used for serious situations.
Griefing has nothing to do with you being able to something that others can't, it has to do with anyone consciously doing something aimed at making another players game experience less enjoyable, the worse the griefing, the worse the experiance
A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.
A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals
Your assumption is that other people would be killing NPCs with the sole desire to make you unhappy. I am not entirely sure how this could make you unhappy in the first place. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they are doing it to grief you, and when trivial things will "grief" you it stops being griefing and just you expecting everybody to do what you want them to.
Of course people will kill NPCs with the sole desire to make other people unhappy, why wouldn't they? It has happened in every other MMO I played. If the game mechanics allow griefing then players will use those mechanics to grief other players and this is the concern being raised. "Carebears" don't want to be griefed. They don't like their play interrupted by other people who have nothing better to do than try to mess with you and who create this toxic environment that is not pleasant for most people.
So explain to me, then, how killing unessential npcs (the only ones you can kill) will grief you? How does it make the environment toxic?
If that griefs you you are looking to be griefed. You are finding a problem where there is none.
Because you assume the system is designed and will be implemented in a way where griefing is not possible. I don't. In fact, I am willing to bet that the system will be broken when it goes live and griefers will find ways to exploit the system.
No it has been stated that it will be implemented as I said. I am not assuming. As such, I can not figure out how these nonessential NPCs dying will affect your gameplay.
Why do you keep assuming that there is going to be griefing in the first place?
Can you quote and reference the details of the justice system implementation?
And can you clarify what is considered a nonessential NPC?
We are simply concerned about the griefing factor. If their intention is to make a grief-proof Justice System then it is great, however, as far as I am aware, they have not made reference to griefing or a strong stance against it at all. Which is why there is concern.
2 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »
Griefersmeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »You are wrong, many of us have been griefed, perhaps not by you, but we have been griefed...
I have played a game where leaving town to do anything was a death sentence because PKers were camping the gates, and walking was the only way to go to another town... I have played games where people would train the zone to the gate so anyone who stepped in was almost instantly dead... I have returned to turn in a quest only to find every NPC in the area dead and camped by Alliance toons who would kill them as soon as they spawned... We know what griefers are.
That some of us look at griefing differently then you is just a level of permissiveness, you are more forgiving of bad behavior then others... but bad behavior is bad behavior, some level of it is acceptable, some is not, we add our 2 cents in hopes that we can influence the level of bad behavior acceptability, just like you.
None of the situations listed are going to happen.
How do you know? do you already know how these things will be implemented? Do you already know the future?
The stuff you listed isn't bad behavior, it has nothing to do with my permissiveness. It would be working as intended.
This is the problem, it was working as intended, it was bad behavior and it was acceptable within the game, accepting it as not bad behavior is your permissiveness
If I decide that I should be the only one to be able to kill -anything- in the game, is it griefing if other people are also able to do so? Obviously not, you don't get to redefine griefing and throw it around like everyone who inconviences you ever is one. You are diminshing a word that should be used for serious situations.
Griefing has nothing to do with you being able to something that others can't, it has to do with anyone consciously doing something aimed at making another players game experience less enjoyable, the worse the griefing, the worse the experiance
A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.
A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals
Your assumption is that other people would be killing NPCs with the sole desire to make you unhappy. I am not entirely sure how this could make you unhappy in the first place. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they are doing it to grief you, and when trivial things will "grief" you it stops being griefing and just you expecting everybody to do what you want them to.
Of course people will kill NPCs with the sole desire to make other people unhappy, why wouldn't they? It has happened in every other MMO I played. If the game mechanics allow griefing then players will use those mechanics to grief other players and this is the concern being raised. "Carebears" don't want to be griefed. They don't like their play interrupted by other people who have nothing better to do than try to mess with you and who create this toxic environment that is not pleasant for most people.
So explain to me, then, how killing unessential npcs (the only ones you can kill) will grief you? How does it make the environment toxic?
If that griefs you you are looking to be griefed. You are finding a problem where there is none.
Because you assume the system is designed and will be implemented in a way where griefing is not possible. I don't. In fact, I am willing to bet that the system will be broken when it goes live and griefers will find ways to exploit the system.
No it has been stated that it will be implemented as I said. I am not assuming. As such, I can not figure out how these nonessential NPCs dying will affect your gameplay.
Why do you keep assuming that there is going to be griefing in the first place?
Can you quote and reference the details of the justice system implementation?
And can you clarify what is considered a nonessential NPC?
We are simply concerned about the griefing factor. If their intention is to make a grief-proof Justice System then it is great, however, as far as I am aware, they have not made reference to griefing or a strong stance against it at all. Which is why there is concern.
watch the Quakecon presentation, it's linked here somewhere. I have no idea how far in it is. the whole presentation is worth viewing, however.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.0 -
Zabus✭✭✭✭
Because I have played quite a few MMOs.
And have obviously never played a TES game before. There's always been essential and non essential NPCs, this game will be no exception.
Zavus - Khajiit Nightblade EP | AR 50
Zāv - Imperial Templar | AR 24
Zavbags - Argonian Nightblade EP | AR 19
Zabus - Redguard Nightblade DC | AR 13
Negate Three - Breton Sorcerer EP | AR 193 -
Breg_Magol✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »IF they instance the NPC's you can kill so that no one can kill the ones you see but you, then it won't be so bad.
Can just imagine the resource overhead that this would require. IMO it's not going to happen this way.
0 -
Haewk✭✭✭xsfkxnub19_ESO wrote: »
I've played all of them. This is an MMO with MMO issues where griefing is a concern. TES games were single player till now and griefing was not possible.
Even in the single player versions, how many patches (many from players) were there to fix problems with ESSENTIAL quest critical NPCs dying or being killed or bugged preventing progression of quests? Ever had to use the console to circumvent or spawn some necessary part of a quest that got broken? I had to, many times.
Can't wait to see the line of sight / doorway / rooftop exploits to spawn a million guards reducing your FPS to almost nothing.
Can't wait to encounter the AoE spamming groups who want to see how many guards they can kill reducing your FPS to almost nothing.
Can't wait to see the bugs that will allow players to flag other players like a healer attacking a guard and then healing or buffing a lot of players. Or healers supporting a flagged player and not getting flagged themselves.
Seriously, have any of you played any other MMOs?4 -
indytims_ESO✭✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »No it has been stated that it will be implemented as I said. I am not assuming. As such, I can not figure out how these nonessential NPCs dying will affect your gameplay.
Why do you keep assuming that there is going to be griefing in the first place?
Seriously?
Do you -seriously- believe that there will be no griefing if a flawed version of the justice system is implemented? Have you played ANY other games where PVP mingles with PVE?
-IF- there is a way to grief in a game - there will *always* be that fringe element that will seek it out and use it. This is how humanity works. This is how it's worked in -every- MMO that has PVP. Unless Zeni puts out the PERFECT system, that's the way it's going to be in ESO, as well, and that's what the guy you're responding to is concerned about.
"Non-essential" NPCs? I watched the justice video (maybe I only saw a partial one? About 3-4 minutes long) and "non-essential" was never mentioned. The presenter made it sound like folks would be able to walk around killing NPCs at random. THAT is the current concern.
There's a lot of unanswered questions right now, and a lot of those are because even Zeni isn't 100% sure what they are going to end up with. I think the guy -did- mention in the presentation that it's still a 'work in progress'.
But I think it's quite a legitimate concern for non-PVPers to be worried about. In the end, maybe Zeni will institute the 'perfect' system that makes everyone happy, but so far, Zeni has not proven to have a super-clean track-record.
2 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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It's an MMO, it's what a section of the PVPer playerbase do, they enjoy griefing 'carebears' as they condescendingly call PVEers and will take every opportunity to do so.smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »
Griefersmeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »You are wrong, many of us have been griefed, perhaps not by you, but we have been griefed...
I have played a game where leaving town to do anything was a death sentence because PKers were camping the gates, and walking was the only way to go to another town... I have played games where people would train the zone to the gate so anyone who stepped in was almost instantly dead... I have returned to turn in a quest only to find every NPC in the area dead and camped by Alliance toons who would kill them as soon as they spawned... We know what griefers are.
That some of us look at griefing differently then you is just a level of permissiveness, you are more forgiving of bad behavior then others... but bad behavior is bad behavior, some level of it is acceptable, some is not, we add our 2 cents in hopes that we can influence the level of bad behavior acceptability, just like you.
None of the situations listed are going to happen.
How do you know? do you already know how these things will be implemented? Do you already know the future?
The stuff you listed isn't bad behavior, it has nothing to do with my permissiveness. It would be working as intended.
This is the problem, it was working as intended, it was bad behavior and it was acceptable within the game, accepting it as not bad behavior is your permissiveness
If I decide that I should be the only one to be able to kill -anything- in the game, is it griefing if other people are also able to do so? Obviously not, you don't get to redefine griefing and throw it around like everyone who inconviences you ever is one. You are diminshing a word that should be used for serious situations.
Griefing has nothing to do with you being able to something that others can't, it has to do with anyone consciously doing something aimed at making another players game experience less enjoyable, the worse the griefing, the worse the experiance
A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.
A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals
Your assumption is that other people would be killing NPCs with the sole desire to make you unhappy. I am not entirely sure how this could make you unhappy in the first place. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they are doing it to grief you, and when trivial things will "grief" you it stops being griefing and just you expecting everybody to do what you want them to.
Of course people will kill NPCs with the sole desire to make other people unhappy, why wouldn't they? It has happened in every other MMO I played. If the game mechanics allow griefing then players will use those mechanics to grief other players and this is the concern being raised. "Carebears" don't want to be griefed. They don't like their play interrupted by other people who have nothing better to do than try to mess with you and who create this toxic environment that is not pleasant for most people.
So explain to me, then, how killing unessential npcs (the only ones you can kill) will grief you? How does it make the environment toxic?
If that griefs you you are looking to be griefed. You are finding a problem where there is none.
Because you assume the system is designed and will be implemented in a way where griefing is not possible. I don't. In fact, I am willing to bet that the system will be broken when it goes live and griefers will find ways to exploit the system.
No it has been stated that it will be implemented as I said. I am not assuming. As such, I can not figure out how these nonessential NPCs dying will affect your gameplay.
Why do you keep assuming that there is going to be griefing in the first place?
Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on July 21, 2014 6:57AM3 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭I just don't get this. NPC's all respawn. Anything you can kill now respawns and so will anything you kill after the justice system is introduced. it doesn't change the fact that you did the crime but it wont cause anyone else a problem other than maybe having to wait a minute or two if the murder victim is a merchant or quest giver. You will be able to see the murder take place and chose to intervene or ignore.1
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isengrimb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I just don't get this. NPC's all respawn. Anything you can kill now respawns and so will anything you kill after the justice system is introduced. it doesn't change the fact that you did the crime but it wont cause anyone else a problem other than maybe having to wait a minute or two if the murder victim is a merchant or quest giver. You will be able to see the murder take place and chose to intervene or ignore.
That was the same idea WoW had when it made ALL NPC's killable - the result: Alliance players keeping the Crossroads nailed down, by sweeping through every 10 minutes or so and avoiding Horde 80s (before flying in the Old World). I myself have kept Goldshire shut down for an hour single-handed until some Ally 90s decided to drag their butts out of Stormwind (after flying) - bored revenge for the Crossroads. (my server - pve - died over the years). It takes a while for NPCs to respawn there.
That stuff generally doesn't happen too often any more, granted - but allowing merchants and quest givers to be killed would just lead to a dog's breakfast of no one being able to do crap, because of people deliberately chain-killing NPCs. It doesn't matter how long it takes them to respawn, if you have a flood of griefers killing them as soon as they pop up.
THAT's one of the main concerns people have - but if the developers take a clue from single-player TES games, and have any experience with my first paragraph at all, the important NPCs will be unkillable, and that will avoid the bulk of any possible complaints, as well as most of the trepidations players have over getting pvp mixed up in pve zones.
As I suggested before, it would be much better to populate the cities with fluff NPCs with obnoxious personalities - the types you WANT to pick a fight with, people you might have an RP reason to _want_ to kill.
Edited by isengrimb16_ESO on July 21, 2014 8:00AM1 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I just don't get this. NPC's all respawn. Anything you can kill now respawns and so will anything you kill after the justice system is introduced. it doesn't change the fact that you did the crime but it wont cause anyone else a problem other than maybe having to wait a minute or two if the murder victim is a merchant or quest giver. You will be able to see the murder take place and chose to intervene or ignore.
Then you have never played an mmo where someone camped a quest mob. Right now most the the main story line quest givers are instanced. But if there isnt one, or even just an important quest, someone will make it their lifes goal to sit on them. They will sit there hours on end and kill them over and over and over. It wont matter how fast they respawn, because almost all the quest have a fair amount of talkyness to them, the mob will be dead before you can accept/turn in. Especially in lower levels were mobs can be 1 shot from stealth.
Oh great he is naked and one shot your quest mob. You can kill him now if you are into pvp or not because your quest giver is already dead. And even if you do kill him he respawns faster then your mob, so he will just do it again.
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Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭This system looks very much like EvE online's PvP system. There is pirate space (cyrodil) where Everyone is flagged for PvP and there is safe space where CONCORD will show up and kick your arse if you attack anything at all. The point is CONCORD ALLWAYS kick your arse. No mater how big a ship you bring or how many the police always bring an overwhelming force. You are allowed to attack people in safe space by the game but not by the AI.
The only reason it happens at all is if you are in a very expensive ship or are suspected of carrying very expensive cargo because in EvE you can loot wrecks.
This could be awesome if the AI spawned overwhelming numbers of OP guards in response to a raid by lots of PvP griefers. I would be interested to know how the game would flag the bad guys though. Right now an enemy is red to you but how does the game decide who the enemy is in a scenario like this? Would it assume that the invaders are bad and flag them red or would all combatants be yellow (neutral) to me until I attack one side or the other. What if my AOE hits both?
Whatever, looks interesting and might but postpone burn out for a month or two longer.Edited by Hilgara on July 21, 2014 8:13AM1 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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*cough* vampires *cough*vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »I just don't get this. NPC's all respawn. Anything you can kill now respawns and so will anything you kill after the justice system is introduced. it doesn't change the fact that you did the crime but it wont cause anyone else a problem other than maybe having to wait a minute or two if the murder victim is a merchant or quest giver. You will be able to see the murder take place and chose to intervene or ignore.
Then you have never played an mmo where someone camped a quest mob. Right now most the the main story line quest givers are instanced. But if there isnt one, or even just an important quest, someone will make it their lifes goal to sit on them.
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KleanZlate✭✭✭A lot of speculation on things we don't know a whole lot about yet.
Personally I'd like to see the justice system tied heavily to the Assassin and Thief guilds. Maybe even have it so you can only kill npc's after joining those guilds. The guilds would keep a reputation system similar to some stealth games out there. If you're a bloody assassin or a messy thief who kills a lot of people you're rewards are reduced significantly and some quests might even be closed for you. If you're a ghost who finishes the objective without extra bloodshed you get better quests and better pay.
Killing essential npc's should only be possible in the actual PvP area in Cyrodiil. Even then it would have to be set up so it couldn't break the game for others. Perhaps there would be areas in the imperial city where you could cause a bit of mischief to the other alliances. Might even be cool to have quests for small groups where you could do a little sabotage. It would have to be instanced to small groups somehow to keep out the big zergs. Don't know if this would be possible but I would really like to see some stuff for small groups in Cyrodiil.
There will always be exploiters who will do their best to ruin it for the rest of us but let's not beat this to death before an official announcement is made. I think this could add a lot of fun to the game.1 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Unfortunately lack of facts doesn't stop the pointless speculation and even assertions of fact which the poster clearly puled out their ass.vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »A lot of speculation on things we don't know a whole lot about yet.
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KleanZlate✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
Unfortunately lack of facts doesn't stop the pointless speculation and even assertions of fact which the poster clearly puled out their ass.vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »A lot of speculation on things we don't know a whole lot about yet.
Yeah speculations are fine but it's impossible to assert anything at this point. The video bit at QuakeCon was just a small showcase. They haven't worked out how this system will be implemented yet so we can't assert anything yet.1 -
Nazon_Katts✭✭✭✭✭
I'd even say lack of facts facilitates speculations and resulting assertions. If ZOS provides sufficient facts, it might stop. To an extent, at least.fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
Unfortunately lack of facts doesn't stop the pointless speculation and even assertions of fact which the poster clearly puled out their ass.vestmanneb17_ESO wrote: »A lot of speculation on things we don't know a whole lot about yet.
Till then, everyone is free to pull whatever from wherever they like.Edited by Nazon_Katts on July 21, 2014 1:15PM"You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"2 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭people think that you can die to an nyc and loose your bounty i think that only aplies to death to a guard and i think it should just reduce your bounty not get rid of it. and also to get to guards one must go to a town where players are at, and they will be able to collect the bounty on your head as well1
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Anastasia✭✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »This is NOT a solo game!
This has only worked in every other Elder Scrolls game BECAUSE they were SOLO, offline games.
That means if I chose to commit a crime or kill some NPC, that is MY CHOICE, and I accept the consequences to my game.
In an online game I have NO CHOICE, and people will just go around slaughtering everything that talks just to grief people.
No more atmospheric NPC's. That sounds like total fail to me.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for a justice system. I think elements of it could be very cool if executed correctly. But allowing bored griefers another way to tick people off by killing all the atmospheric NPC's the second they spawn is just a really dumb idea.
Stop trying to copy every little thing from the SOLO ES games.
How about this. Let me mod the game like I did for all the other ES games. I'll just give myself levitate and the bow of 1000 deaths and 1-shot every veteran dungeon boss with my awesome skillxorz!
/sarcasm
But you get my point. Not everything that works in a solo game works/belongs in an online game.
This is a really bad idea and many people like me that enjoy the atmospheric NPC banter and would take personal responsibility not to go around like a bored child killing everything may end up un-subbing over this.
Alien, you always shoot before you even know your target...
First of all, this is not an ES thing. Its an MMO thing. Since Ultima we could kill or raid towns, this isn't new or bound to ES.
We even could do it at WOW, before the care bears started to tell us how MMOs work and that we were only allowed to kill guards or other players in BGs.
Secondly,
if players can not kill important NPC´s, then the whole justice system is going to be dead. Why should someone risk a bounty with all the consequences for a totally pointless NPC?
Last but not least,
players who commit a crime will be flagged for pvp, attacked by guards and this will stop griefing. Just keep in mind, if you cant pay your bounty of 10.000 gold then you will be flagged forever!
I don't think it will be possible to play being constantly flagged, after all the banks are in town and if you cant access those due your bounty, you are pretty much screwed
Moderator Edit: Edited quote from moderated post.
"Just keep in mind, if you cant pay your bounty of 10.000 gold then you will be flagged forever!"
^^I think some folks are confused as to whether if you die that bounty disappears so of course some people will screw around and do it like that, or if the bounty remains on your head even after you rez...
Oh, the forums and in-game chat from PvE folks, crafter folks etc gonna be soooo busy whenever the Justice system is finally activated. Will be a love affair for the heart of PvPer's at least for awhile
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Requiemslove✭✭✭people think that you can die to an nyc and loose your bounty i think that only aplies to death to a guard and i think it should just reduce your bounty not get rid of it. and also to get to guards one must go to a town where players are at, and they will be able to collect the bounty on your head as well
Watch the video in this thread. When you die to a guard your bounty does NOT go down. That is what that video showed. How they implement it all when they do release it, is anyone's guess.0 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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One of the griefers admits it.isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »I myself have kept Goldshire shut down for an hour single-handed .
This folks is what will happen in ESO, players like him will see to it.
Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on July 21, 2014 2:28PM2 -
Sighlynce✭✭✭moxiesauce wrote: »
*maybe even put in a skill, spent with champion points, to be able to pick you're own cell locks*
Awesome idea , I like it
! "What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" - Paarthurnax2 -
isengrimb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
One of the griefers admits it.isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »I myself have kept Goldshire shut down for an hour single-handed .
This folks is what will happen in ESO, players like him will see to it.
Keep in mind I did it ONCE. I've been arguing AGAINST unrestrained open-world PvP. For all the times I was barred from doing my quests in the Barrens. I mainly ran away from the 90s because I know I can't fight 'em in my PvE dungeon gear. There's a lot of apathy for that kind of thing nowdays, and I bet if it wasn't Goldshire, no one would have bothered trying to get rid of me.
But, if one lousy non-PvPer can button down one little quest hub ... unless there are certain restrictions (hard to get involved with the justice system, unkillable merchants and quest NPCs) - imagine what the REAL griefers can/would do!
Edited by isengrimb16_ESO on July 21, 2014 4:29PM1 -
Requiemslove✭✭✭So long as open world pvp is a thing you have to opt in for I see no issue. So long as quest NPCs and other important NPCs cant be harmed ESO will stay the same for those not wanting to be involved.2