NB ballance

Lyall84

Mud_Puppy wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

When comes the NB ballance? Would like to be on pair with other classes head on without lulrobe and lulstaff crap.... And fix cloak already.

Some of the best duelers are nightblades without staves. You NBs are just way to comfortable with calling yourself underpowered at this point.

Dualing or 1v1 was never the question. This is all about sustained battle dps, not hide and go gank. Once we pop that sneak attack cherry, we fall flat on our faces long term unless a staff is in our hands.

Ser Lobo

Lyall84 wrote: »

That is why there is so much outrage from the NB class. They are the class with the built in cloak mechanics, and vampire version is superior and available to everyone.

Before going off on how NB need to L2P, learn to spot what abilities are actually being used.

So much outrage by many in the class, yes. Not the whole class, unless somewhere we elected someone to speak and I wasn't asked to vote.

We have a built in cloak mechanics, but this isn't the defining characteristic of the class. At least for players like myself.

My personal assumptions on the name of the class, was a class that can sneak around and strike from the shadows. Striking from the shadows doesn't equal the same as 'repeatedly cloaking and attacking the same group again and again' as it does in more famous MMO's. It could mean what it always means in TES, which is 'you get to attack first, and big'.

Every class has that capability, too, but we are uniquely boosted for it.

I think the difference lies in the fact that I use cloak to sneak past enemies that would otherwise see through my stealth, and players like yourself seem to want to use cloak to break out of combat whenever you choose.

Either way, we'll probably see better heals and pet summons with spellmaking, better tanking with improved heavy armor passives and spellmaking, and better sneaking with Thieves Guild and Mages Guild passives and abilities.

Maybe ZOS never intended class to really define a character. Maybe they just intended it to be a solid base for a thousand options.

Ser Lobo

Lyall84 wrote: »

Mud_Puppy wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

When comes the NB ballance? Would like to be on pair with other classes head on without lulrobe and lulstaff crap.... And fix cloak already.

Some of the best duelers are nightblades without staves. You NBs are just way to comfortable with calling yourself underpowered at this point.

Dualing or 1v1 was never the question. This is all about sustained battle dps, not hide and go gank. Once we pop that sneak attack cherry, we fall flat on our faces long term unless a staff is in our hands.

As others (and maybe yourself) have pointed out, much of this is the issue of stamina-based weapons, not limited to Nightblades as a class.

When the stamina armor passives and softcaps are fixed, and weapons are buffed, will Nightblade non-staff/cloth DPS still be so outmatched? I'm interested in finding out.

Better to solve the problems that effect every class first, then see where Nightblades stand (barring the fixes to shadow cloak, that is).




My personal change to shadow cloak would be to give it an in-combat, out-of-combat shift. Out of combat, it acts as invisibility (as currently). In combat, it acts as a 75%-90% straight damage reduction and provides all passive abilities 'from stealth' we get, but doesn't actually break aggro, doesn't get broken by taken damage, and doesn't make us invisible.

Solve both issues. A four second 90% DR would be an amazing boost to the class as a whole.

Lyall84

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

The strangest part about PvPing as a melee NB is our astonishingly terrible survivability and low DPS in comparison.

Granted, if I'm whacking on a sword n board templar or DK my survivability isn't terrible, and depends more upon the skill of the opponent (this is considering the tiny, tiny amount of time that one fights 1 v 1in Cyrodiil, which is really not the point of AvAvA, but for purposes of comparison). Reminds me of playing a Templar, slowly whittling away.

It's in all other situations that NBs die off the fastest. Self-heals are terrible, magicka regen is subpar despite the fact that I use light attacks to regain magicka all the time in fights - needlessly prolonging fights in which my class is supposed to be "bursty," which it is not.

The reason it is not is that in AvAvA stealthed sneak attacks are a tiny proportion of all normal activities - riding across the landscape, taking a keep, defending a resource, etc. We excel at running back with Scrolls, though (Shadowy Path + morphs).

You'd think we'd just Shadow and escape? That works a woefully tiny proportion of the time due to a number of factors: bugs (constant, especially not even ever entering stealth), one's own HoTs, otherss HoTs, others' AoEs, sorcs' and archers' light attacks, siege AoE, enemy Alliance NPC aggro (which prevents stealth for like 2 minutes and I'm always bugged to be unable to mount forever, including having to relog, after combat nowadays), coming out of stealth at random on bugged terrain (no obvious visual different, just pop from crouched to walking for no reason), everpresent magelight... the list goes on and on.

And the 30% static stamina regen helps with keeping up rapid maneuvers. I am usually my guilds scroll runner. Use medium armor with magicka regeneration set bonuses or reduction, and magicka glyphs. Warlock accessories. Can spam path and maneuvers all day long back to the temple with pots.

Back to the DPS, yes we have great burst from stealth dps. But outside of LA/staff, very weak sustained. PvP is also weak sustained. I think it would help if shadow cloak was long enough to actually allow us to go full "hidden" mid combat, but that would create two issues. PvP it would give us slow, but repeatable burst dps that people would say is OP, and PvE it would create nightmares with mobs resetting.

If you increase DPS overall in the class by too much, you run the risk of making us overpowered because we have both spike damage and DPS in our favor, a very potent combination.

If you give us longer, sustainable cloaks, then we have the ability to disengage at will, which is a huge ability that (especially in PvP) is possibly the most powerful functional mechanic there is. The ability to choose what fights to fight, even in the middle of them, is simply overpowered, unless each class has such an option. As we see with the Bolt Escape nerfs, it's less likely to be something ZOS supports.

This is a mechanic that has been tested repeatedly in other games, and just as often comes out to be far more of a headache than a bonus to the game itself.

Vampire mist almost does the same thing and it is available to everyone. Sorcerer has bolt escape which allows them to do something similar.

Edit: even with the BE nerfs, sorcerers can still do exactly the smae thing as far as escape. They just cannot turn around mid escape and waste someone before continuing on their merry light ball way.

I agree that it is a tough slippery slope to make it work correctly, but we have to have our in combat sustained continuous damage at least in the ball park of other classes or no one will want to play ot use a NB for trials or keep sieges. We would be pigeon holed into healing, scouting and ganking.

This suggestion was just a way to increase our damage over time without raising our second by second dps. Make it spikey dps that is the same damage per minute as other classes. Either way, I ended stating that it would cause issues.

Mojomonkeyman

Lyall84 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I know and see NBs (I admit they are really good players) going on rampage in Cyro with dw & full med armor every day.

They jump from player to player alone inside large groups, bursting them down in 2-3 seconds, dodge, cloak & hide after every kill making projectiles being cast just hit empty air. If caught overextending, they will create space with mist and immediately hiding after, dodging projectiles like mad and finally escaping.

Watching them play is a real pleasure, even on the receiving end. It made me think of NB as a class that rewards good players, the subpar ones just won`t see those results.

Best regards

Really? Cloak and hide? Have a hard time believing that seeing how every time I try cloaking outside of one on one situations, cloak breaks on anything and everything. Including things that should not like debuffs that reduce out going damage or what not.

The only time I can do what you are claiming medium armor NB are doing is LA/staff, sap essence spam with veil of blades stacking. Maybe a little impulse action. No stealthing involved. Even with the current changes to medium armor, a NB in full medium is a one trick pony, pop out of stealth, kill one person, and die.

Cloak does not make the projectiles hit empty air like you are suggesting, it should, but it doesnt, it pops cloak every time. That has been the number one complaint of every NB from the beginning. You clearly don't play a NB. If you did you would know that it is not the NB vanishing completely, it is the NB dying. That is why it looks like they disappear, because it is the health bar disappearing.

If they are DW, odds are they are still light armor, or mixed light going with power extraction or sap essence with steel tornado, but maybe there are a few that do medium. Any other weapon set up will not work like you are pointing out. I am going to double check DW this weekend and see if it has finally improved.

Now what you did point out is mist...that is a vampire thing, that is a superior invisibility when morphed and reduces incoming damage if I am not mistaken. That heavy damage reduction with the vampire passive of damage reduction while low health will make it look like those projectiles are hitting thin air when they are only doing 1 to 5 % of the damage they normally do. But this is a vampire thing, not a NB thing. I have seen DK and Sorcerer vamps do this same very thing with mist form.

That is why there is so much outrage from the NB class. They are the class with the built in cloak mechanics, and vampire version is superior and available to everyone.

Before going off on how NB need to L2P, learn to spot what abilities are actually being used.

Whoa, someone`s getting a little upset, ha? Had a bad day?

Where exactly did I claim to play NB? My post is making pretty clear that I`m just speaking from observation and playing lots of smallscale, often duo with NB.

I started ESO with a guildmate who was known to be one of the best players in GW1 for example, he played NB until he went to Wildstar (top rating now in BGs and Arena, so yeah, he is topnotch mechanics wise). When we went to Cyrodiil we duo`d all day.

He was able to 1vs5 after release with full med armor dw/board & shield, he never used cloak to disengage, just to make his opponents lose target for 2 seconds after bursting the first one, reposition and nuke the next one down within a few seconds. Then miststealthing, next target and so on. No light armor, no staff. Good NBs don`t use cloak as a tool to hide forever, it`s just a target resetter.

Watch Demon Eye`s`s youtube vids, or Daykiin`s. There are NBs who are able to make dw NB look like a wonderful and crazy powerful class to play. I meet Daykiin for example pretty often on AB EU on the field. He rocks, doing all the stuff I described, using DW.

youtube.com/watch?v=H5Uv7ND62Pw
youtube.com/watch?v=kyZowGSoaWs

Did you see how those guys are using cloak? Exactly as I said, appearing, disappearing, each just for a few seconds. Just because you are not able to play like that, doesn`t mean nobody is. Sorry, if your mechanics don`t allow you to pull that off, train more, get better (no offense). I never meant to insult anyone, if you read carefully, all I said was, that dw NB can be an awesome style to play, if you are good enough.

You can be all stubborn and refuse to use tools available that have crazy good synergies with your class (vampire), but that`s not anyones fault but yours. Nor does it mean that they are necessary, I honestly can`t tell. you might want to ask NBs who are known to be good for advice, because you obviously haven`t reached that level yet.

Edit: Implying I don`t know what mistform is, is funny coming from someone who doesn`t know how to play his own class. I never claimed that mistform was a NB exclusive ability, please quote me stating so. Don`t put words in my mouth, thanks.

You seem to be all aggressive, I guess it`s because your inability to master your class is frustrating to you. I get that. You will get there, one day, I believe in you! Just never stop trying and don`t waste your time complaining on forums.

Best regards

Lyall84

Ignore this post. Edited because I changed my mind.

Lyall84

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I know and see NBs (I admit they are really good players) going on rampage in Cyro with dw & full med armor every day.

They jump from player to player alone inside large groups, bursting them down in 2-3 seconds, dodge, cloak & hide after every kill making projectiles being cast just hit empty air. If caught overextending, they will create space with mist and immediately hiding after, dodging projectiles like mad and finally escaping.

Watching them play is a real pleasure, even on the receiving end. It made me think of NB as a class that rewards good players, the subpar ones just won`t see those results.

Best regards

Really? Cloak and hide? Have a hard time believing that seeing how every time I try cloaking outside of one on one situations, cloak breaks on anything and everything. Including things that should not like debuffs that reduce out going damage or what not.

The only time I can do what you are claiming medium armor NB are doing is LA/staff, sap essence spam with veil of blades stacking. Maybe a little impulse action. No stealthing involved. Even with the current changes to medium armor, a NB in full medium is a one trick pony, pop out of stealth, kill one person, and die.

Cloak does not make the projectiles hit empty air like you are suggesting, it should, but it doesnt, it pops cloak every time. That has been the number one complaint of every NB from the beginning. You clearly don't play a NB. If you did you would know that it is not the NB vanishing completely, it is the NB dying. That is why it looks like they disappear, because it is the health bar disappearing.

If they are DW, odds are they are still light armor, or mixed light going with power extraction or sap essence with steel tornado, but maybe there are a few that do medium. Any other weapon set up will not work like you are pointing out. I am going to double check DW this weekend and see if it has finally improved.

Now what you did point out is mist...that is a vampire thing, that is a superior invisibility when morphed and reduces incoming damage if I am not mistaken. That heavy damage reduction with the vampire passive of damage reduction while low health will make it look like those projectiles are hitting thin air when they are only doing 1 to 5 % of the damage they normally do. But this is a vampire thing, not a NB thing. I have seen DK and Sorcerer vamps do this same very thing with mist form.

That is why there is so much outrage from the NB class. They are the class with the built in cloak mechanics, and vampire version is superior and available to everyone.

Before going off on how NB need to L2P, learn to spot what abilities are actually being used.

Whoa, someone`s getting a little upset, ha? Had a bad day?

Where exactly did I claim to play NB? My post is making pretty clear that I`m just speaking from observation and playing lots of smallscale, often duo with NB.

I started ESO with a guildmate who was known to be one of the best players in GW1 for example, he played NB until he went to Wildstar (top rating now in BGs and Arena, so yeah, he is topnotch mechanics wise). When we went to Cyrodiil we duo`d all day.

He was able to 1vs5 after release with full med armor dw/board & shield, he never used cloak to disengage, just to make his opponents lose target for 2 seconds after bursting the first one, reposition and nuke the next one down within a few seconds. Then miststealthing, next target and so on. No light armor, no staff. Good NBs don`t use cloak as a tool to hide forever, it`s just a target resetter.

Watch Demon Eye`s`s youtube vids, or Daykiin`s. There are NBs who are able to make dw NB look like a wonderful and crazy powerful class to play. I meet Daykiin for example pretty often on AB EU on the field. He rocks, doing all the stuff I described, using DW.

youtube.com/watch?v=H5Uv7ND62Pw
youtube.com/watch?v=kyZowGSoaWs

Did you see how those guys are using cloak? Exactly as I said, appearing, disappearing, each just for a few seconds. Just because you are not able to play like that, doesn`t mean nobody is. Sorry, if your mechanics don`t allow you to pull that off, train more, get better (no offense). I never meant to insult anyone, if you read carefully, all I said was, that dw NB can be an awesome style to play, if you are good enough.

You can be all stubborn and refuse to use tools available that have crazy good synergies with your class (vampire), but that`s not anyones fault but yours. Nor does it mean that they are necessary, I honestly can`t tell. you might want to ask NBs who are known to be good for advice, because you obviously haven`t reached that level yet.

Best regards

Also you clearly said MIST to escape. Two videos showing DW got better. Good, I am glad. There are also TONS of videos showing cloak is broken...

OH by the way...

First video, guy is using a Golden Saint costume, so cannot tell what gear he is using, and the only stamina based ability on his bar is throwing knife, so he has a ranged mid damage ability until he can use impale. Also 100% of his kills are ganks, he gets the first hit on all of them, most on horseback. The biggest "fight" he was in was 2 v 3. No one here is saying that nightblades cannot gank someone. Any class can gank if they get the jump on them, Nightblades can just do it in 3-4 seconds instead of 5-7. Only the fight at the end is it two back to back 1 v 2 situations, and the guy loses.

Second video, guy is using medium...props to him. Clearly a magicka build, but in medium armor.

Both videos....gank videos. Neither one of those are actual in battle combat videos. The issue that people are complaining about is any type of sustainable DPS compared to the other classes. Or not having a working "panic button" like the other three classes have. In small 1v1 or 1v2 situations, it is easier for cloak to work because you are limited on the number of debuffs that you can receive. Even ZOS has stated that cloak is broken, the sad part is that it has stayed broken after they admitted it for over two months. OP is trying to point out that it is still broken despite all the other patch corrections, and nerfs, etc.

You also just highlighted a issue that most night blade players have. Why should be be forced to roll vampire to be effective? That is more of a issue with vampires, because they have crazy synergy with everything, but either way. It falls along the same lines as the robe and staff argument.

Lyall84

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

Mud_Puppy wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

When comes the NB ballance? Would like to be on pair with other classes head on without lulrobe and lulstaff crap.... And fix cloak already.

Some of the best duelers are nightblades without staves. You NBs are just way to comfortable with calling yourself underpowered at this point.

Dualing or 1v1 was never the question. This is all about sustained battle dps, not hide and go gank. Once we pop that sneak attack cherry, we fall flat on our faces long term unless a staff is in our hands.

As others (and maybe yourself) have pointed out, much of this is the issue of stamina-based weapons, not limited to Nightblades as a class.

When the stamina armor passives and softcaps are fixed, and weapons are buffed, will Nightblade non-staff/cloth DPS still be so outmatched? I'm interested in finding out.

Better to solve the problems that effect every class first, then see where Nightblades stand (barring the fixes to shadow cloak, that is).




My personal change to shadow cloak would be to give it an in-combat, out-of-combat shift. Out of combat, it acts as invisibility (as currently). In combat, it acts as a 75%-90% straight damage reduction and provides all passive abilities 'from stealth' we get, but doesn't actually break aggro, doesn't get broken by taken damage, and doesn't make us invisible.

Solve both issues. A four second 90% DR would be an amazing boost to the class as a whole.

Forgive my post above. I am 100% agreement with you on this point, but...if you did a DR to the cloak, it would be almost exactly like vampire mist form. Personally, I would not mind taking the AOE or DOT damage, if it did not pop me out of invisibility. That way I could use it to escape and still not be OP so to speak. Maybe even let the effect go the full 2.9 seconds of invisibility with the 100% critical chance even if we attack? I could see people complaining about being damaged by someone invisible, but at the same time. The ability costs an arm and a leg, and only lasts basically 3 seconds. For the Dark Cloak morph, have it changed from remove 1/2/3/4 damage over time effects at rank for to remove 1 debuff every 3/2/1/.5 seconds during the duration. Don't know.

Ser Lobo

Mist Form has an exceptionally high DR, but many (including myself) feel that this is to counter the weakness to fire damage that can really haunt you in PvE. Any Nightblade ability would have to take that into consideration.

Since beta, I've felt that they needed to take the cloak out of Nightblade, upgrade blur to be a mix between mist form and evasion (20% miss chance, 40% DR, 10 seconds, provides all passive 'from stealth' buffs while active, increases stealth ability when not in combat), and make cloak a Dark Brotherhood, Mages Guild and Thieves Guild mechanic.

Nightblades aren't by default the rogues, as all classes currently can go invis (with invis potions and vampire mist form), and might soon be able to get stealth passives with the introduction of Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild. And Shadow Cloak has given the developers a lot of hell in how it functions currently.

Changing our focus to exceptional initial spike damage and debuffs (assassination line), tank and movement boosts (shadow line) and self/group heals (siphon line) seems to be more of what I would have preferred out of our class specialization.

In the end, all of these things will probably be able to be done by all classes. You might very well see templars with dark brotherhood spike damage passives, thieves guild active cloaks, and vampire bonuses. But that is the nature of The Elder Scrolls. Classes are merely a starting point, and aren't very restrictive at all.

Mojomonkeyman

@Lyall84‌

Yeah, mistform is good for escape. Not only for NBs. I never claimed anything else. What logic is it to try and put some werid meaning of yours into that, which I never intended to. My statement was pretty clear. You obviously want all that stuff for NBs exclusively, sorry, thats not the case. But neither is it for any other class.

NB in my opinion is the most escapey class in this game by far since BE nerf. I see NBs doing what you claim is impossible to do every day.

You want NB dw to be a dps bomb build, when it isnt. It`s a single target setup. Why trying to make an apple a orange and complain afterwards if it doesn`t work? You can go and wear light armor and staff for bombing like any other class is forced to.

DPS is such a non-factor in PvP. I said explicitely that I see dw med armor NBs excel at PvP in Cyrodiil. Never claimed they`re good in trials (wearing med armor & dw). 1.3 will prolly change that. Can`t say whether it will be on par with mage NB but each and every class is forced to go mage for highest dps. Thats not a exclusive NB problem.

Both of the NBs in the videos are using cloak in the way I described, that`s why I posted them. Your posts make it sound as if cloak would be too buggy to work, when it clearly isn`t. Even if the dot clean does bug out, to be able to reset enemy target infight is one of the most powerful abilities in any game.

I am in two cross faction dueling & small scale guilds which include pretty much all the best players on EU AB, Bloodthorn and Dawnbreaker. There are multiple NBs who make dw NB med armor work in exactly the way I described. Nothing more, nothing less. I also never said that every med dw NB is using weapon based skills exclusively, no class is doing that.

You obviously have serious reading comprehension issues or are just too heated up to read my initial post and understand that my perception of really strong dw NBs in med armor does not match your ideal picture of how NBs should be all in one: burst, sustained dps and max escape (while using only stam based weapon skills). Thats pathetic and will never happen. Try to play another class, this is also impossible for any other class in this game as well.

Try reading my initial post again, when you are sober. I was basically just saying, that it is possible to go and smash face 1vsX in a way that looks just awesome. And that I assume that the entry skill level needed to do that is (from my observation) pretty high. Where is the insult, where is all the bad stuff you wanna try to imply I`m saying?

Seriously, you are obviously not as good as the NBs I`m playing with and against, otherwise you wouldn`t waste your time with crying on the forums but go Cyrodiil and smash face.

Best regards

Matuzes

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Watch Demon Eye`s`s youtube vids, or Daykiin`s. There are NBs who are able to make dw NB look like a wonderful and crazy powerful class to play. I meet Daykiin for example pretty often on AB EU on the field. He rocks, doing all the stuff I described, using DW.

youtube.com/watch?v=H5Uv7ND62Pw
youtube.com/watch?v=kyZowGSoaWs

Did you see how those guys are using cloak? Exactly as I said, appearing, disappearing, each just for a few seconds. Just because you are not able to play like that, doesn`t mean nobody is. Sorry, if your mechanics don`t allow you to pull that off, train more, get better (no offense). I never meant to insult anyone, if you read carefully, all I said was, that dw NB can be an awesome style to play, if you are good enough.

Best regards

Both videos are just ganking from stealth, mostly non-v12 players. Also videos are 1 and more then 2 months old. Now, majority of players use Inner Light and have few Impenetrable traits in armor, which hurts gank builds hard.


https://youtube.com/watch?v=E7GuyaQvTx8
ZOS need to ensure that DK still feels powerful. Really? Im just sad watching video like this.

TheBull

NBs have terrible survivability.

TheBull

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

The strangest part about PvPing as a melee NB is our astonishingly terrible survivability and low DPS in comparison.

Granted, if I'm whacking on a sword n board templar or DK my survivability isn't terrible, and depends more upon the skill of the opponent (this is considering the tiny, tiny amount of time that one fights 1 v 1in Cyrodiil, which is really not the point of AvAvA, but for purposes of comparison). Reminds me of playing a Templar, slowly whittling away.

It's in all other situations that NBs die off the fastest. Self-heals are terrible, magicka regen is subpar despite the fact that I use light attacks to regain magicka all the time in fights - needlessly prolonging fights in which my class is supposed to be "bursty," which it is not.

The reason it is not is that in AvAvA stealthed sneak attacks are a tiny proportion of all normal activities - riding across the landscape, taking a keep, defending a resource, etc. We excel at running back with Scrolls, though (Shadowy Path + morphs).

You'd think we'd just Shadow and escape? That works a woefully tiny proportion of the time due to a number of factors: bugs (constant, especially not even ever entering stealth), one's own HoTs, otherss HoTs, others' AoEs, sorcs' and archers' light attacks, siege AoE, enemy Alliance NPC aggro (which prevents stealth for like 2 minutes and I'm always bugged to be unable to mount forever, including having to relog, after combat nowadays), coming out of stealth at random on bugged terrain (no obvious visual different, just pop from crouched to walking for no reason), everpresent magelight... the list goes on and on.

And the 30% static stamina regen helps with keeping up rapid maneuvers. I am usually my guilds scroll runner. Use medium armor with magicka regeneration set bonuses or reduction, and magicka glyphs. Warlock accessories. Can spam path and maneuvers all day long back to the temple with pots.

Back to the DPS, yes we have great burst from stealth dps. But outside of LA/staff, very weak sustained. PvP is also weak sustained. I think it would help if shadow cloak was long enough to actually allow us to go full "hidden" mid combat, but that would create two issues. PvP it would give us slow, but repeatable burst dps that people would say is OP, and PvE it would create nightmares with mobs resetting.

If you increase DPS overall in the class by too much, you run the risk of making us overpowered because we have both spike damage and DPS in our favor, a very potent combination.

If you give us longer, sustainable cloaks, then we have the ability to disengage at will, which is a huge ability that (especially in PvP) is possibly the most powerful functional mechanic there is. The ability to choose what fights to fight, even in the middle of them, is simply overpowered, unless each class has such an option. As we see with the Bolt Escape nerfs, it's less likely to be something ZOS supports.

This is a mechanic that has been tested repeatedly in other games, and just as often comes out to be far more of a headache than a bonus to the game itself.

Pie in the sky. None of that is real.

Mojomonkeyman

Matuzes wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Watch Demon Eye`s`s youtube vids, or Daykiin`s. There are NBs who are able to make dw NB look like a wonderful and crazy powerful class to play. I meet Daykiin for example pretty often on AB EU on the field. He rocks, doing all the stuff I described, using DW.

youtube.com/watch?v=H5Uv7ND62Pw
youtube.com/watch?v=kyZowGSoaWs

Did you see how those guys are using cloak? Exactly as I said, appearing, disappearing, each just for a few seconds. Just because you are not able to play like that, doesn`t mean nobody is. Sorry, if your mechanics don`t allow you to pull that off, train more, get better (no offense). I never meant to insult anyone, if you read carefully, all I said was, that dw NB can be an awesome style to play, if you are good enough.

Best regards

Both videos are just ganking from stealth, mostly non-v12 players. Also videos are 1 and more then 2 months old. Now, majority of players use Inner Light and have few Impenetrable traits in armor, which hurts gank builds hard.


https://youtube.com/watch?v=E7GuyaQvTx8
ZOS need to ensure that DK still feels powerful. Really? Im just sad watching video like this.

I posted these vids to show what I meant with infight cloaking every few seconds because that Lyall84 guy claimed it wouldnt be possible. No other reason for posting those vids. Please read my posts, thanks. Hint: the sentence right after the links... do people refuse to read these days?

By the way, the player in the first vid (where most non max encounters happened) wasn`t max level either, he was v1 afair.

Regards

Ser Lobo

TheBull wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Lyall84 wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

The strangest part about PvPing as a melee NB is our astonishingly terrible survivability and low DPS in comparison.

Granted, if I'm whacking on a sword n board templar or DK my survivability isn't terrible, and depends more upon the skill of the opponent (this is considering the tiny, tiny amount of time that one fights 1 v 1in Cyrodiil, which is really not the point of AvAvA, but for purposes of comparison). Reminds me of playing a Templar, slowly whittling away.

It's in all other situations that NBs die off the fastest. Self-heals are terrible, magicka regen is subpar despite the fact that I use light attacks to regain magicka all the time in fights - needlessly prolonging fights in which my class is supposed to be "bursty," which it is not.

The reason it is not is that in AvAvA stealthed sneak attacks are a tiny proportion of all normal activities - riding across the landscape, taking a keep, defending a resource, etc. We excel at running back with Scrolls, though (Shadowy Path + morphs).

You'd think we'd just Shadow and escape? That works a woefully tiny proportion of the time due to a number of factors: bugs (constant, especially not even ever entering stealth), one's own HoTs, otherss HoTs, others' AoEs, sorcs' and archers' light attacks, siege AoE, enemy Alliance NPC aggro (which prevents stealth for like 2 minutes and I'm always bugged to be unable to mount forever, including having to relog, after combat nowadays), coming out of stealth at random on bugged terrain (no obvious visual different, just pop from crouched to walking for no reason), everpresent magelight... the list goes on and on.

And the 30% static stamina regen helps with keeping up rapid maneuvers. I am usually my guilds scroll runner. Use medium armor with magicka regeneration set bonuses or reduction, and magicka glyphs. Warlock accessories. Can spam path and maneuvers all day long back to the temple with pots.

Back to the DPS, yes we have great burst from stealth dps. But outside of LA/staff, very weak sustained. PvP is also weak sustained. I think it would help if shadow cloak was long enough to actually allow us to go full "hidden" mid combat, but that would create two issues. PvP it would give us slow, but repeatable burst dps that people would say is OP, and PvE it would create nightmares with mobs resetting.

If you increase DPS overall in the class by too much, you run the risk of making us overpowered because we have both spike damage and DPS in our favor, a very potent combination.

If you give us longer, sustainable cloaks, then we have the ability to disengage at will, which is a huge ability that (especially in PvP) is possibly the most powerful functional mechanic there is. The ability to choose what fights to fight, even in the middle of them, is simply overpowered, unless each class has such an option. As we see with the Bolt Escape nerfs, it's less likely to be something ZOS supports.

This is a mechanic that has been tested repeatedly in other games, and just as often comes out to be far more of a headache than a bonus to the game itself.

Pie in the sky. None of that is real.

After more than a decade of multiplayer gaming, I firmly stand by my point that there isn't a single mechanic that is harder to balance than cloaking/escaping while in combat. In PvP specifically, players are get VERY frustrated with any class that can simply choose not to fight anymore when they start losing.

I've seen these arguments, and taken part on both sides, in multiple games, for a long time. It's not just MMO's, either. In the end, I'm glad ZOS has the mechanics in place that they do, and that they don't seem to see cloaking as a means of escape, but more as a means to put your target off balance and get that extra bit of damage in (which they even have nerfed how high our alpha strike damage is).

Otherwise, why do you think cloak (and invisibility potions) are on such a short timer compared to most MMO's? A few seconds is clearly not enough time to disengage completely from combat, not like what can be done by rogues in WoW, trickster rogues in Neverwinter Online, etc.

Of course we don't hear nearly the complaints that those classes get in their respective games, either. It's almost like ZOS did it on purpose, avoiding making that cliche 'cloak in combat' rogue that MMO's have become notorious for.

dcincali

You're balanced.. Now run along and play nice..

V12 dk soft capped on impen and armor..

Jaxom

dcincali wrote: »

You're balanced.. Now run along and play nice..

V12 dk soft capped on impen and armor..

Right, you also need to be in melee range to hit with concealed weapon and those are crits..

Also, from the looks of it, they caught you with concealed out of stealth, which is not easy to achieve. He/she probably hit Shadowy Disguise and hit you again for 100% crit chance. This is actually all we are good for. Beyond that initial burst, we lack many things. You can't judge an entire class around one obscure screen shot.

Paladin_echo1

Nightblade isn't balanced because it requires stealth attacks to live for the most part. In the other direction on my Templar I laugh at Nightblades because I know what the class requires when I play on mine. So I purposely would wait for that sweet 30% and then use Honor the Dead (No SunShield either) to heal ALL of my hp to max in a split second and watch the NB try to get away while they are beaten to death. This sucks when Im on my NB though. This class needs a lot more for the survivability side. Its not that great in a longer term fight. After you are seen, its over. You either kill something really fast, or you are dead 2 seconds or less later. I can hide in the shadows on my DK in stamina mode and do the same if not even more DPS than my NB and get far more survivability. My Templar, Dragonknight, and Nightblade are all Veteran level too.

Testing them against each other is becoming comical at the current time. Also, did you know that you can stealth and hit someone with Magician's guild Meteor for the stealth damage? That is going to suck for people when Templar gets that upgrade.

Lyall84

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

@Lyall84‌

Yeah, mistform is good for escape. Not only for NBs. I never claimed anything else. What logic is it to try and put some werid meaning of yours into that, which I never intended to. My statement was pretty clear. You obviously want all that stuff for NBs exclusively, sorry, thats not the case. But neither is it for any other class.

NB in my opinion is the most escapey class in this game by far since BE nerf. I see NBs doing what you claim is impossible to do every day.

You want NB dw to be a dps bomb build, when it isnt. It`s a single target setup. Why trying to make an apple a orange and complain afterwards if it doesn`t work? You can go and wear light armor and staff for bombing like any other class is forced to.

DPS is such a non-factor in PvP. I said explicitely that I see dw med armor NBs excel at PvP in Cyrodiil. Never claimed they`re good in trials (wearing med armor & dw). 1.3 will prolly change that. Can`t say whether it will be on par with mage NB but each and every class is forced to go mage for highest dps. Thats not a exclusive NB problem.

Both of the NBs in the videos are using cloak in the way I described, that`s why I posted them. Your posts make it sound as if cloak would be too buggy to work, when it clearly isn`t. Even if the dot clean does bug out, to be able to reset enemy target infight is one of the most powerful abilities in any game.

I am in two cross faction dueling & small scale guilds which include pretty much all the best players on EU AB, Bloodthorn and Dawnbreaker. There are multiple NBs who make dw NB med armor work in exactly the way I described. Nothing more, nothing less. I also never said that every med dw NB is using weapon based skills exclusively, no class is doing that.

You obviously have serious reading comprehension issues or are just too heated up to read my initial post and understand that my perception of really strong dw NBs in med armor does not match your ideal picture of how NBs should be all in one: burst, sustained dps and max escape (while using only stam based weapon skills). Thats pathetic and will never happen. Try to play another class, this is also impossible for any other class in this game as well.

Try reading my initial post again, when you are sober. I was basically just saying, that it is possible to go and smash face 1vsX in a way that looks just awesome. And that I assume that the entry skill level needed to do that is (from my observation) pretty high. Where is the insult, where is all the bad stuff you wanna try to imply I`m saying?

Seriously, you are obviously not as good as the NBs I`m playing with and against, otherwise you wouldn`t waste your time with crying on the forums but go Cyrodiil and smash face.

Best regards

Really, stooping to the level of calling me a drunk because you did not like what I was pointing out?

Yes, in the perfect conditions dark cloak can be used. But, and this is a big one, if you have any type of damage over time effects on your target, it pops you out of stealth prematurely. If your enemy has any type of dodge chance buff on themselves or a miss change debuff on you, it pops you out of stealth prematurely. Both these issues have been acknowledged by ZOS as not intended, and for months not been fixed.

I never said or implied I want DW to be some sort of AoE bomb. I fully understand that anything pertaining to stamina builds is not NB class only. What I was trying to get across, is that even with a melee, assassination build, you only get that opening burst of glory before burning up and dying.

If cloaking worked the way it is supposed to, even though 2.9 seconds is nothing compared to the 30% of max health 6 to 8 second shields or heals of the other classes, it would help increase our survival. But as it stands now, Nightblades are the only class that can have their panic button ability ended prematurely.

Also, even after the BE nerf, sorcerer still has a better escape. It cannot be ended prematurely, absorbs incomming projectiles, even with the extra cost is still spammable enough that all you see is the dingle berries they leave behind. Meanwhile Nightblades, if they have a DoT or any of the other above mentioned issues, can spamm their only escape and get nothing out of it but an empty magicka bar.

You can find all the 1v1 gank videos you want of NB. Go play one yourself, or if you are a NB, stop using it to just dodge mobs and try and use it for its intended combat purpose. You will quicklu see why the rest of us are "too heated".

Basic rule in PvP in this game, for any and every class, is if you get the jump on them, especially while on horseback, you usually win. It is the rest of the PvP, actual open combat, that we should also be effective at. Tanky like a DK or Temp? No. But we should still be able to fight in a toe to toe fight in something other than a bath robe.

Now on a more constructive note, I would like to at least see on tool tips for abilities which type of critical and penetration they use. It is odd to me how some of our abilities increase in power with magicka and use magicka, but use weapon critical and armor penetration. That would not change any balances and only provide information.

What I think would help at least with class/stamina synergy would be to make the abilities that use weapon critical and penetration also use/scale off stamina instead of magicka.

Lyall84

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Matuzes wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Watch Demon Eye`s`s youtube vids, or Daykiin`s. There are NBs who are able to make dw NB look like a wonderful and crazy powerful class to play. I meet Daykiin for example pretty often on AB EU on the field. He rocks, doing all the stuff I described, using DW.

youtube.com/watch?v=H5Uv7ND62Pw
youtube.com/watch?v=kyZowGSoaWs

Did you see how those guys are using cloak? Exactly as I said, appearing, disappearing, each just for a few seconds. Just because you are not able to play like that, doesn`t mean nobody is. Sorry, if your mechanics don`t allow you to pull that off, train more, get better (no offense). I never meant to insult anyone, if you read carefully, all I said was, that dw NB can be an awesome style to play, if you are good enough.

Best regards

Both videos are just ganking from stealth, mostly non-v12 players. Also videos are 1 and more then 2 months old. Now, majority of players use Inner Light and have few Impenetrable traits in armor, which hurts gank builds hard.


https://youtube.com/watch?v=E7GuyaQvTx8
ZOS need to ensure that DK still feels powerful. Really? Im just sad watching video like this.

I posted these vids to show what I meant with infight cloaking every few seconds because that Lyall84 guy claimed it wouldnt be possible. No other reason for posting those vids. Please read my posts, thanks. Hint: the sentence right after the links... do people refuse to read these days?

By the way, the player in the first vid (where most non max encounters happened) wasn`t max level either, he was v1 afair.

Regards

V1? Looks like a huge 5 to me. Maybe I did not watch the video well enough...nope, still a 5.

By the way, follow your own advice, read my posts again. I never said it was not possible, I said that because of the bugs it is not reliable. Nightblades need to have the correct conditions to get the full 2.9 seconds of their panic button. Meanwhile every other class can press their panic button and they get the full 30% health shield for the full 6 to 8 seconds, or the full 30% of lost health, every time.

Lyall84

dcincali wrote: »

You're balanced.. Now run along and play nice..

V12 dk soft capped on impen and armor..

Couple of questions.

1) Same NB or two hitting at the same time...I know it sounds silly, but if you got tag teamed, that explains everything and voids the balanced statement. Hard to tell because the names are white washed.

2) Were you on horseback, AFK or just not paying attention? Because, I am assuming you mean soft capped or overcharge, not hard capped, meaning about 30% damage reduction. If you Marked, all that armor is almost useless. Mark reduces your armor by 75%, so you would go from 30% reduction to around 8%. Most people will block to avoid the sneak attack damage when they are marked. It almost looks like you just stood there and took it on the chin.

3) This is more directed to other Nightblades, but I know concealed weapons goes off weapon critical and supposedly armor penetration, but is increased by Magicka. Does it also scale off spell power instead of weapon power? I am not able to get online and check at this moment. But if it is off spell power...I would guess the NB that hit @dcincali‌ Marked, sneak critical Concealed Weapons, Shadowy Disguise, popped a Magicka/Spell Power potion, Concealed Weapons critical (from Shadowy Disguise).

Bottom line, yes, one trick pony 2 or 3 second gank, but what does he do after that? Either run for his life or die. I don't need to beat the Shadowy Disguise beats Impenetrable dead horse as someone already mentioned that.

Able to gank does not equal balanced. I can get killed in 3 or 4 seconds by a sorcerer any day of the week. Crystal Fragments sneak critical for 1000, light attack for 200, Crystal Fragments instant cast for 400 to 500 non critical, light attack for 200, Mage Fury once or twice. That is 5 seconds tops with 2 different 2 seconds stuns in it. The NB screen you posted also took at least 2 seconds with the 2 Concealed Weapons casts, but I can guarantee that Shadowy Disguise was used at least the second time, so around 3 seconds.

Bottom line, it is the overall viability of the class that is the issue, not fringe ganking at the edges of PvP. This gank example does not even touch on the PvE issues Nightblades have with extended combat damage output.

Selodaoc

No way a NB could hit for that dmg twice in a row. Initial hit yes, but the second hit will be 500-700ish IF it crits.

All NB melee range skills are spell dmg and weapon crit. Which are one of the crap things with NB, we have to get spell dmg gear, but still wear medium armor for the weapon crit.

Ranged NB skills are spell crit and spell dmg.

Thats one of the reasons that NBs go staff/light. Then you only have to focus on Spell crit and spell dmg, and still use the siphoning line in NB (ranged)
Destro staff is ofcourse weapon dmg, but its still much better going staff/light for the reductions etc.

Farkaz

dcincali wrote: »

You're balanced.. Now run along and play nice..

V12 dk soft capped on impen and armor..

NB is not the only class that can stealth attack, he may have some skills that helps him achieving this, but there are far more bloodthirsty beasts in this forest.

MrMT

trockersb16_ESO wrote: »

But I don't want to play a mono clic build like lot of guys: shyponing spam or surprise attack...

Shampoo spam?

dafraorb16_ESO

with the "Impenetrable" trait the Sorceress self-heal and a Nightblade class are useless

Aren_Liore

ya know, I thought I was doing good before I came up on this post. I guess I've been living under a rock the whole time as I don't read up on things very often.

I can testify that opening, I can dish out a good amount of damage, but as the battle wages on, the DPS begins to decline. I run with a usual group of people, and my friend (a sorc healer) does more damage than I do by the end of the dungeon, and I'm supposed to be the DPS portion of the party.

Maybe I just don't do my job right (which is possible), but evidence shown by this thread confirms that NBs have a difficult time sustaining a high amount of DPS over an extended amount of time. Now, I certainly don't claim to be overly skilled or educated on what sort of DPS is to be expected or what kind of DPS other classes can do or any of that, but I don't think NB is where it should be just yet.

TheBucket

Kypho wrote: »

Mud_Puppy wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

When comes the NB ballance? Would like to be on pair with other classes head on without lulrobe and lulstaff crap.... And fix cloak already.

Some of the best duelers are nightblades without staves. You NBs are just way to comfortable with calling yourself underpowered at this point.

I want to see DK vs non light/stick NB duel (ok restro on second weapon but no loldestro crap). Or Templar vs NB.
Again no staffcrap BS

Then you can come out to the dueling grounds and watch me. Im double DW and can stand with any DK.

TheBucket

Nightblade has great DPS. You need to learn to use your abilities. Im currently full medium double dual wield. Off balanced targets give increased dps and we have an ability that does just that at will and even goes through block.

Thats only one tip. Stop spamming ambush you noobs and stop blowing resources on the jump. Lots of good abilities that are deemed useless that really are not..

forthewinn2

@TheBucket would you mind explaining a bit more about your build? Double dual wield sounds rather unusual.

TheBucket

forthewinn2 wrote: »

@TheBucket would you mind explaining a bit more about your build? Double dual wield sounds rather unusual.

Sure. On the phone right now. I would have to get on my comp. I will tomorrow and post. I will tell you I'm a DoT/Bleed spec.