NB ballance

Kypho

When comes the NB ballance? Would like to be on pair with other classes head on without lulrobe and lulstaff crap.... And fix cloak already.

Kewljag_66_ESO

Not sure what you are looking for.. We are already very strong when we open with a sneak attack, Ambush, Suprise Attack, or Snipe. The buffs we got in the last few patches along with stamina buffs to medium armor put us right up there. We arent straight up as strong as a DK toe to toe but no one should be that strong.

I am V8 DW medium armor and i can take on anyone and kill them if I open with sneak attack, even V12 DKs. Sometimes even without sneak attacking.

NBs who changed to robes and staffs just couldnt figure out how to play the class and counter other players.

Gizzarduk

Cloak still needs fixing though! That has been broken since launch I think.

trockersb16_ESO

I don't think that the NB balance, but the stamina vs magika balance.
You can kill rapidly an ennemy with magika build and spam.

But I don't want to play a mono clic build like lot of guys: shyponing spam or surprise attack spam (so magika skill), but is the must for the moment.

Jaxom

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

NBs who changed to robes and staffs just couldnt figure out how to play the class and counter other players.

Eh, not so sure about that. Most just wanted to be invited to Trials. It has nothing to do with not knowing how to play the class. My Stamina Build was hitting around 350-400 DPS (this was pre Medium Armor change). I swapped to 7/7 Light with a Resto Staff and now I'm hitting 950-980 DPS in trials with little effort. There is a large disparity in end game PvE.

Now in PvP, that's is a little different. With some of the set changes coming in a few weeks, I think you will start seeing more Stamina builds since they are viable in Cyrodiil. They still wont be on par with Magicka but at least that gap with not be as wide.

Kewljag_66_ESO

Jaxom wrote: »

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

NBs who changed to robes and staffs just couldnt figure out how to play the class and counter other players.

Eh, not so sure about that. Most just wanted to be invited to Trials. It has nothing to do with not knowing how to play the class. My Stamina Build was hitting around 350-400 DPS (this was pre Medium Armor change). I swapped to 7/7 Light with a Resto Staff and now I'm hitting 950-980 DPS in trials with little effort. There is a large disparity in end game PvE.

Now in PvP, that's is a little different. With some of the set changes coming in a few weeks, I think you will start seeing more Stamina builds since they are viable in Cyrodiil. They still wont be on par with Magicka but at least that gap with not be as wide.

Yes i was pointing my comment at the pvp endgame

Feidam

I don't play a nightblade but I do want better balance with in the game so I'm anxiously awaiting the numbers various build are capable of with the new item set changes.

Kypho

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

Not sure what you are looking for.. We are already very strong when we open with a sneak attack, Ambush, Suprise Attack, or Snipe. The buffs we got in the last few patches along with stamina buffs to medium armor put us right up there. We arent straight up as strong as a DK toe to toe but no one should be that strong.

I am V8 DW medium armor and i can take on anyone and kill them if I open with sneak attack, even V12 DKs. Sometimes even without sneak attacking.

NBs who changed to robes and staffs just couldnt figure out how to play the class and counter other players.

I dunno what are you talking about. I was always normal NB not LA/DS or RS. All who start the attack from sneak, has the same advantage like NB.

Pancake-Tragedy

Kypho wrote: »

... I was always normal NB not LA/DS or RS..

What is a "normal NB"? Statements like this really have no footing, since NB has a skill tree built with a "warlock" playstyle. Weapon/stamina builds need help, and I think 1.3 is helping with that, but it isn't an NB exclusive issue.

Najarati

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

What is a "normal NB"? Statements like this really have no footing, since NB has a skill tree built with a "warlock" playstyle. Weapon/stamina builds need help, and I think 1.3 is helping with that, but it isn't an NB exclusive issue.

A fair question, indeed. I've played a sword-and-shield, heavy armor Nightblade tank since beta; a Blood Knight if you will.

There seems to be this idea the assassin style is the "normal" Nightblade and many improvement suggestions tend to revolve around it. I'd love to see (meaningful) improvements to Blur or Summon Shades or anything to help the tank-oriented Nightblades.

Kypho

Najarati wrote: »

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

What is a "normal NB"? Statements like this really have no footing, since NB has a skill tree built with a "warlock" playstyle. Weapon/stamina builds need help, and I think 1.3 is helping with that, but it isn't an NB exclusive issue.

A fair question, indeed. I've played a sword-and-shield, heavy armor Nightblade tank since beta; a Blood Knight if you will.

There seems to be this idea the assassin style is the "normal" Nightblade and many improvement suggestions tend to revolve around it. I'd love to see (meaningful) improvements to Blur or Summon Shades or anything to help the tank-oriented Nightblades.

Ahh my god... warlock. blood knight... remove the normal NB ... no light armor and staff wielder . It is ok now?

Kiljaz

Resto staff and 7 medium armor magicka assassin is insane in pvp... With a fullly charged Incapacitating strikes ulti I can ambush from stealth for 1,300 and instantly ulti for 2,100... Instantaneous 3,400 damage...

Seems underpowered to me.

forthewinn2

Kiljaz wrote: »

Resto staff and 7 medium armor magicka assassin is insane in pvp... With a fullly charged Incapacitating strikes ulti I can ambush from stealth for 1,300 and instantly ulti for 2,100... Instantaneous 3,400 damage...

you sure these numbers are right? For incapacitating strike to deal that much damage it would have to be fully charged, you would also need like 2550 magicka and 150 spell power.....Even then that's theortical damage not taking into account armor.......

screenshot plz

Kiljaz

Try 2321 magicka and 162 spell power.

forthewinn2

@kiljaz 2100 damage still doesn't sound quite right, could you grab a screenshot of that damage? Also what about damage mitigation?

runagate

The strangest part about PvPing as a melee NB is our astonishingly terrible survivability and low DPS in comparison.

Granted, if I'm whacking on a sword n board templar or DK my survivability isn't terrible, and depends more upon the skill of the opponent (this is considering the tiny, tiny amount of time that one fights 1 v 1in Cyrodiil, which is really not the point of AvAvA, but for purposes of comparison). Reminds me of playing a Templar, slowly whittling away.

It's in all other situations that NBs die off the fastest. Self-heals are terrible, magicka regen is subpar despite the fact that I use light attacks to regain magicka all the time in fights - needlessly prolonging fights in which my class is supposed to be "bursty," which it is not.

The reason it is not is that in AvAvA stealthed sneak attacks are a tiny proportion of all normal activities - riding across the landscape, taking a keep, defending a resource, etc. We excel at running back with Scrolls, though (Shadowy Path + morphs).

You'd think we'd just Shadow and escape? That works a woefully tiny proportion of the time due to a number of factors: bugs (constant, especially not even ever entering stealth), one's own HoTs, otherss HoTs, others' AoEs, sorcs' and archers' light attacks, siege AoE, enemy Alliance NPC aggro (which prevents stealth for like 2 minutes and I'm always bugged to be unable to mount forever, including having to relog, after combat nowadays), coming out of stealth at random on bugged terrain (no obvious visual different, just pop from crouched to walking for no reason), everpresent magelight... the list goes on and on.

Kendor

Rename the class to Nightstaff and all is fine

Prokonto

w

forthewinn2 wrote: »

@kiljaz 2100 damage still doesn't sound quite right, could you grab a screenshot of that damage? Also what about damage mitigation?

well, as vr12 i can hit vr lvl mob for ~2850 suprise attack with Might of the guild but w/o resto staf as i utilse dw daggers. but dunno how it goes in pvp in fact

Kypho

Kiljaz wrote: »

Resto staff and 7 medium armor magicka assassin is insane in pvp... With a fullly charged Incapacitating strikes ulti I can ambush from stealth for 1,300 and instantly ulti for 2,100... Instantaneous 3,400 damage...

Seems underpowered to me.

Ambush from stealth..... Stop this nonsense. All have such numbers if attacking from hide. if you go stealth with claok in combat, you lost all damage. instaneous 3,400 dmg from ulti and from hide, when lets say a sorcerer can hit you for at least 2 times 1k+ with fragment if procs and just tear you apart with a thunder lol.
As i said, ALL CLASS can do same or higher damage from stealth attack. Try to go 1 on 1 when arent HIDEing just use your cloak (lets say detection potion was in use). you will see how all class out dps you, and CC ing you or blocking your attack when you try to CC with surprise attack or Concealed attack.
I bet you feel so strong because you use attack from hiding, and its right. but when other class tell you what damage they can do, you will wonder, and reallize you arent that great with your 3.4k . Not speaking of the survivability. Even if you try to cloak you get instantly dropped out.

Ser Lobo

When you put Nightblades with light armor and staves next to other classes wearing the same, we are equal or excel. In one way of looking at it, this means we are balanced.

The imbalance many Nightblades perceive and experience is a two-part issue. On the one hand, you have the disparity between weapon and stamina-based abilities and magicka and class-based abilities, something ZOS has admitted was not forseen (they didn't intend a player to rely so heavily on stamina), and are slowly adjusting (look at recent patch notes to medium armor and some weapons; look at the Quakecon panel; look at the Road Ahead).

On the other side of the problem you have a playstyle that many are used to using in MMO's, and that ZOS is obviously not supporting: that of an MMO rogue, who attacks from stealth with spike damage, disengages from combat at will, and then attacks again from spike damage. A character class that has the ability to disengage from combat at will, supposedly allowing them to make up for low defenses, but in reality making the class overpowered by design.

Part of the reason this mechanic doesn't work is by bug, with us breaking cloak on our own DOTs, etc. And part of the reason is due to design, with ZOS limiting the cloak and invisibility timers down to mere seconds.





Playing a Nightblade as a first strike class that then switches to a DPS focus? That seems to work for many of us (except dual wield, which is having issues above the rest for usefullness and damage). You have to worry about defenses just like everyone else, and sustainability, which you can accomplish in a number of ways.

Those who play a Nightblade to be able to engage and disengage as they want, though, are the one's I feel will be disappointed by ZOS's mindset. Its obvious to me, with their design decisions and the changes they've made, that reapplying stealth spike damage repeatedly in combat isn't their goal. Warcraft Rogues or Neverwinter Trickster Rogues sneaking infinitely aren't the goal here, as there are too many ways to counter stealth or have stealth broken on you. It's not nearly as reliable a mechanic as it is in other games.



Over the last several months, I've stood by with a lot of forum players on the changes coming towards Nightblade, and the many, many we have already received. Not all of them benefited me, but they were good for our class.

But after the next couple rounds of weapon skill upgrades, and armor fixes (plus what I predict will be a nerf to light armor synergy), I believe you will see many Nightblades perfectly happy with the class.

I still think there will be those who are unhappy, though. And their point will be that the class isn't doing what they ASSUMED it would do. Isn't playing how they ASSUMED it should play. Those assumptions are based off of what other MMO's have done. And I think ZOS doesn't intend Nightblade to play like rogues typically do in other MMO's, for the purpose of avoiding all the headaches and imbalances that those rogue mechanics bring to PvP and PvE content.

Kiljaz

Kypho wrote: »

Kiljaz wrote: »

Resto staff and 7 medium armor magicka assassin is insane in pvp... With a fullly charged Incapacitating strikes ulti I can ambush from stealth for 1,300 and instantly ulti for 2,100... Instantaneous 3,400 damage...

Seems underpowered to me.

Ambush from stealth..... Stop this nonsense. All have such numbers if attacking from hide. if you go stealth with claok in combat, you lost all damage. instaneous 3,400 dmg from ulti and from hide, when lets say a sorcerer can hit you for at least 2 times 1k+ with fragment if procs and just tear you apart with a thunder lol.
As i said, ALL CLASS can do same or higher damage from stealth attack. Try to go 1 on 1 when arent HIDEing just use your cloak (lets say detection potion was in use). you will see how all class out dps you, and CC ing you or blocking your attack when you try to CC with surprise attack or Concealed attack.
I bet you feel so strong because you use attack from hiding, and its right. but when other class tell you what damage they can do, you will wonder, and reallize you arent that great with your 3.4k . Not speaking of the survivability. Even if you try to cloak you get instantly dropped out.

I'm sorry you have problems with sorcerrers, I personally don't...

I have a VR12 sorc as well and yes I slaughter most NBs. If you come across a good one, good luck.

Kypho

Kiljaz wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

Kiljaz wrote: »

Resto staff and 7 medium armor magicka assassin is insane in pvp... With a fullly charged Incapacitating strikes ulti I can ambush from stealth for 1,300 and instantly ulti for 2,100... Instantaneous 3,400 damage...

Seems underpowered to me.

Ambush from stealth..... Stop this nonsense. All have such numbers if attacking from hide. if you go stealth with claok in combat, you lost all damage. instaneous 3,400 dmg from ulti and from hide, when lets say a sorcerer can hit you for at least 2 times 1k+ with fragment if procs and just tear you apart with a thunder lol.
As i said, ALL CLASS can do same or higher damage from stealth attack. Try to go 1 on 1 when arent HIDEing just use your cloak (lets say detection potion was in use). you will see how all class out dps you, and CC ing you or blocking your attack when you try to CC with surprise attack or Concealed attack.
I bet you feel so strong because you use attack from hiding, and its right. but when other class tell you what damage they can do, you will wonder, and reallize you arent that great with your 3.4k . Not speaking of the survivability. Even if you try to cloak you get instantly dropped out.

I'm sorry you have problems with sorcerrers, I personally don't...

I have a VR12 sorc as well and yes I slaughter most NBs. If you come across a good one, good luck.

No problem with sorcs.

Kypho

It is rouge style or die/ go lolmagelike. I mean eighter you kill from HIDEd state or youll die faster than any other class. so IF ZoS didnt support rouge like, then why not get NB up to pair with other classes in nonstealth combat. Show me how you do vs DK or Templar without magelike playstyle. Anyway. i hope new changes will help, but dont say we arent forced to play rougelike, because most ppl here who stated they do awesome, are attacking from stealth.

Kiljaz

Kypho wrote: »

It is rouge style or die/ go lolmagelike. I mean eighter you kill from HIDEd state or youll die faster than any other class. so IF ZoS didnt support rouge like, then why not get NB up to pair with other classes in nonstealth combat. Show me how you do vs DK or Templar without magelike playstyle. Anyway. i hope new changes will help, but dont say we arent forced to play rougelike, because most ppl here who stated they do awesome, are attacking from stealth.

Yes, I agree with this... If you fail on your opening and don't kill your target within the first 3 seconds of the fight... you better hope dark cloak doesn't bug out and your target doesn't have any detection potions.

Mud_Puppy

Kypho wrote: »

When comes the NB ballance? Would like to be on pair with other classes head on without lulrobe and lulstaff crap.... And fix cloak already.

Some of the best duelers are nightblades without staves. You NBs are just way to comfortable with calling yourself underpowered at this point.

Kypho

Mud_Puppy wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

When comes the NB ballance? Would like to be on pair with other classes head on without lulrobe and lulstaff crap.... And fix cloak already.

Some of the best duelers are nightblades without staves. You NBs are just way to comfortable with calling yourself underpowered at this point.

I want to see DK vs non light/stick NB duel (ok restro on second weapon but no loldestro crap). Or Templar vs NB.
Again no staffcrap BS

Mojomonkeyman

I know and see NBs (I admit they are really good players) going on rampage in Cyro with dw & full med armor every day.

They jump from player to player alone inside large groups, bursting them down in 2-3 seconds, dodge, cloak & hide after every kill making projectiles being cast just hit empty air. If caught overextending, they will create space with mist and immediately hiding after, dodging projectiles like mad and finally escaping.

Watching them play is a real pleasure, even on the receiving end. It made me think of NB as a class that rewards good players, the subpar ones just won`t see those results.

Best regards

Lyall84

runagate wrote: »

The strangest part about PvPing as a melee NB is our astonishingly terrible survivability and low DPS in comparison.

Granted, if I'm whacking on a sword n board templar or DK my survivability isn't terrible, and depends more upon the skill of the opponent (this is considering the tiny, tiny amount of time that one fights 1 v 1in Cyrodiil, which is really not the point of AvAvA, but for purposes of comparison). Reminds me of playing a Templar, slowly whittling away.

It's in all other situations that NBs die off the fastest. Self-heals are terrible, magicka regen is subpar despite the fact that I use light attacks to regain magicka all the time in fights - needlessly prolonging fights in which my class is supposed to be "bursty," which it is not.

The reason it is not is that in AvAvA stealthed sneak attacks are a tiny proportion of all normal activities - riding across the landscape, taking a keep, defending a resource, etc. We excel at running back with Scrolls, though (Shadowy Path + morphs).

You'd think we'd just Shadow and escape? That works a woefully tiny proportion of the time due to a number of factors: bugs (constant, especially not even ever entering stealth), one's own HoTs, otherss HoTs, others' AoEs, sorcs' and archers' light attacks, siege AoE, enemy Alliance NPC aggro (which prevents stealth for like 2 minutes and I'm always bugged to be unable to mount forever, including having to relog, after combat nowadays), coming out of stealth at random on bugged terrain (no obvious visual different, just pop from crouched to walking for no reason), everpresent magelight... the list goes on and on.

And the 30% static stamina regen helps with keeping up rapid maneuvers. I am usually my guilds scroll runner. Use medium armor with magicka regeneration set bonuses or reduction, and magicka glyphs. Warlock accessories. Can spam path and maneuvers all day long back to the temple with pots.

Back to the DPS, yes we have great burst from stealth dps. But outside of LA/staff, very weak sustained. PvP is also weak sustained. I think it would help if shadow cloak was long enough to actually allow us to go full "hidden" mid combat, but that would create two issues. PvP it would give us slow, but repeatable burst dps that people would say is OP, and PvE it would create nightmares with mobs resetting.

Attorneyatlawl

Jaxom wrote: »

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

NBs who changed to robes and staffs just couldnt figure out how to play the class and counter other players.

Eh, not so sure about that. Most just wanted to be invited to Trials. It has nothing to do with not knowing how to play the class. My Stamina Build was hitting around 350-400 DPS (this was pre Medium Armor change). I swapped to 7/7 Light with a Resto Staff and now I'm hitting 950-980 DPS in trials with little effort. There is a large disparity in end game PvE.

Now in PvP, that's is a little different. With some of the set changes coming in a few weeks, I think you will start seeing more Stamina builds since they are viable in Cyrodiil. They still wont be on par with Magicka but at least that gap with not be as wide.

Stamina vs. magicka isn't a class issue, it's a game-wide thing.

Lyall84

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I know and see NBs (I admit they are really good players) going on rampage in Cyro with dw & full med armor every day.

They jump from player to player alone inside large groups, bursting them down in 2-3 seconds, dodge, cloak & hide after every kill making projectiles being cast just hit empty air. If caught overextending, they will create space with mist and immediately hiding after, dodging projectiles like mad and finally escaping.

Watching them play is a real pleasure, even on the receiving end. It made me think of NB as a class that rewards good players, the subpar ones just won`t see those results.

Best regards

Really? Cloak and hide? Have a hard time believing that seeing how every time I try cloaking outside of one on one situations, cloak breaks on anything and everything. Including things that should not like debuffs that reduce out going damage or what not.

The only time I can do what you are claiming medium armor NB are doing is LA/staff, sap essence spam with veil of blades stacking. Maybe a little impulse action. No stealthing involved. Even with the current changes to medium armor, a NB in full medium is a one trick pony, pop out of stealth, kill one person, and die.

Cloak does not make the projectiles hit empty air like you are suggesting, it should, but it doesnt, it pops cloak every time. That has been the number one complaint of every NB from the beginning. You clearly don't play a NB. If you did you would know that it is not the NB vanishing completely, it is the NB dying. That is why it looks like they disappear, because it is the health bar disappearing.

If they are DW, odds are they are still light armor, or mixed light going with power extraction or sap essence with steel tornado, but maybe there are a few that do medium. Any other weapon set up will not work like you are pointing out. I am going to double check DW this weekend and see if it has finally improved.

Now what you did point out is mist...that is a vampire thing, that is a superior invisibility when morphed and reduces incoming damage if I am not mistaken. That heavy damage reduction with the vampire passive of damage reduction while low health will make it look like those projectiles are hitting thin air when they are only doing 1 to 5 % of the damage they normally do. But this is a vampire thing, not a NB thing. I have seen DK and Sorcerer vamps do this same very thing with mist form.

That is why there is so much outrage from the NB class. They are the class with the built in cloak mechanics, and vampire version is superior and available to everyone.

Before going off on how NB need to L2P, learn to spot what abilities are actually being used.

Ser Lobo

Lyall84 wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

The strangest part about PvPing as a melee NB is our astonishingly terrible survivability and low DPS in comparison.

Granted, if I'm whacking on a sword n board templar or DK my survivability isn't terrible, and depends more upon the skill of the opponent (this is considering the tiny, tiny amount of time that one fights 1 v 1in Cyrodiil, which is really not the point of AvAvA, but for purposes of comparison). Reminds me of playing a Templar, slowly whittling away.

It's in all other situations that NBs die off the fastest. Self-heals are terrible, magicka regen is subpar despite the fact that I use light attacks to regain magicka all the time in fights - needlessly prolonging fights in which my class is supposed to be "bursty," which it is not.

The reason it is not is that in AvAvA stealthed sneak attacks are a tiny proportion of all normal activities - riding across the landscape, taking a keep, defending a resource, etc. We excel at running back with Scrolls, though (Shadowy Path + morphs).

You'd think we'd just Shadow and escape? That works a woefully tiny proportion of the time due to a number of factors: bugs (constant, especially not even ever entering stealth), one's own HoTs, otherss HoTs, others' AoEs, sorcs' and archers' light attacks, siege AoE, enemy Alliance NPC aggro (which prevents stealth for like 2 minutes and I'm always bugged to be unable to mount forever, including having to relog, after combat nowadays), coming out of stealth at random on bugged terrain (no obvious visual different, just pop from crouched to walking for no reason), everpresent magelight... the list goes on and on.

And the 30% static stamina regen helps with keeping up rapid maneuvers. I am usually my guilds scroll runner. Use medium armor with magicka regeneration set bonuses or reduction, and magicka glyphs. Warlock accessories. Can spam path and maneuvers all day long back to the temple with pots.

Back to the DPS, yes we have great burst from stealth dps. But outside of LA/staff, very weak sustained. PvP is also weak sustained. I think it would help if shadow cloak was long enough to actually allow us to go full "hidden" mid combat, but that would create two issues. PvP it would give us slow, but repeatable burst dps that people would say is OP, and PvE it would create nightmares with mobs resetting.

If you increase DPS overall in the class by too much, you run the risk of making us overpowered because we have both spike damage and DPS in our favor, a very potent combination.

If you give us longer, sustainable cloaks, then we have the ability to disengage at will, which is a huge ability that (especially in PvP) is possibly the most powerful functional mechanic there is. The ability to choose what fights to fight, even in the middle of them, is simply overpowered, unless each class has such an option. As we see with the Bolt Escape nerfs, it's less likely to be something ZOS supports.

This is a mechanic that has been tested repeatedly in other games, and just as often comes out to be far more of a headache than a bonus to the game itself.