No AH (Auction House) = crap

Alphashado

Blackwidow wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Kuta doesn't come from decon'ing ore and cloth...
The point you missed is if the raw mats are cheap and plenty...then the rares for decons become more abundant. And the ore and other raw mats are available in unlimited supply since they are gathered from constantly spawning nodes.
There's a difference between tempers and rare drops, specifically how they are obtained.

Which does not change at all if there is an AH.

Don't start...I actually have to work tonight and can't dedicate my whole night debating like last night :-)

We disagree on that topic, and it is what is it. If they implement an AH, then one of us could say "I Told you so!" at some point.

Before you go to work, I want you to think about this and then finish the next sentence when you get back, after you have rested up.

If they add an AH, there will be more rares in ESO because....

Let's be clear. We are talking about a global auction house because that is the only kind that would work with a mega server. And you are correct. There wouldn't be more of them . But they would be cheap and easy to buy.

Now before yo comment on how wonderful that would be, consider the people that work hard to get them. And next time you are at work ask yourself this... I want to work all day, cash may paycheck then go home and sit on the porch giving it away to everyone that walks by because..

Makkir

Blackwidow wrote: »

If they add an AH, there will be more rares in ESO because....

That statement is totally LOADED like a baked potato with bacon!

DigitalHype

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

It sounds more like smoke to cover current technical limitations, and they will probably phase in larger and larger auction houses once they get that snag worked out.

Agreed. Only time will tell.

SFBryan18

Makkir wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Kuta doesn't come from decon'ing ore and cloth...
The point you missed is if the raw mats are cheap and plenty...then the rares for decons become more abundant. And the ore and other raw mats are available in unlimited supply since they are gathered from constantly spawning nodes.
There's a difference between tempers and rare drops, specifically how they are obtained.

And you don't want other players to have nice stuff?

I don't have nice stuff. I have like 3 epics. Mix of blues and greens for the rest.
What I am saying is if it's easy to have nice stuff then it really isnt special anymore is it? And it isn't valuable. If your nice stuff was consumed then there would be a constant demand for materials which would keep things moving smoothly...in a game where the crafters are the pivotal ones that make everything

The rarity really only determines time. How much time will it take for you to earn enough gold to get what you want? It's only a matter of time if you want it bad enough, but seriously, what's the point? You really want to force people to play for a year just to get what they want? I hate that. I want to put in a decent amount of effort for it, sure, but a game can only force you to grind for so long before the grind just kills it. Trust me when I say I know a grind. I earned the platinum trophy for GTA4, and getting to level 10 online was straight bull ***. Anyone in favor of keeping items practically nonexistent are pretty much trying to enforce a never ending grind fest, which is not my idea of fun.

Blackwidow

Alphashado wrote: »

Let's be clear. We are talking about a global auction house because that is the only kind that would work with a mega server. And you are correct. There wouldn't be more of them . But they would be cheap and easy to buy.

No, they would not, because they are rare.

Rare items are not cheap on AHs in any game.

Blackwidow

Makkir wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

If they add an AH, there will be more rares in ESO because....

That statement is totally LOADED like a baked potato with bacon!

I see.

So, it's okay to say there will be more rares, but it is not fair to ask how that is possible?

Makkir

@SFBryan18 Vr12 players ROFLstomp others in PvP. Maybe closing such a disparity in gear vs. skill would calm things down a bit?

A lot of MMOs have trouble dealing with gear, and end up taking the route that you have to raid to get the best gear...and it starts the upward spiral (next tier replaces your current tier). Personally, I always hated working hard for my gear than having it trivialized in the next expansion. I like challenges (Raids) but don't understand why expansions can't just offer mechanics instead of gear tiers, so players can focus on the content instead of trying to get new gear.

I just think Legendary gear should be rare and the result of hard work and progress (which to me is defining an MMO...progression). I have the old EQ mindset where the vast majority of players were in "blues." My character in WoW has all current raid epics and it's not an accomplishment. People say Big Deal. So why is that armor called Epic then?

You have to understand also that a lot of games are gear dependent, where the gear makes or breaks the performance of your character. When that is the case, and the gear is crafted without being consumable, it's really hard to balance that in a fair economy with or without an Auction House.

Let me ask...If there was an Auction House and all those tempers were easily available and it was easy to find and get Legendary gear...would you all be OK with gear being repaired 3-5 times before it broke completely and you had to get it replaced? The knee jerk answer is No, I ran a poll months ago, but think about it for a moment and how fluid the crafting profession would become. You have to put all into perspective...the rares would be easier to obtain. Maybe players would think twice about what to bring to battle? This is how Star Wars Galaxies was before those stupid Flipping Anti-Decay Kits were introduced, but that game was less dependent on gear.

I would be all for an Auction House but they would have to change other mechanics in the game first. They decided to make this game about crafters (And yes it is because they make everything you use in the game), so they have to keep them in mind.

traigusb14_ESO2

Alphashado wrote: »

In an interwiew with Nick Konkle on the Elder Scrolling podcast Sunday, he said the each kiosk will be there for all 3 phases. So if a guild wins one in Daggerfall for example, it can be browsed by DC 1-50, EP v1-v5, and AD V6-v10 etc.

Missed that, thanks.

Alphashado

Blackwidow wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Let's be clear. We are talking about a global auction house because that is the only kind that would work with a mega server. And you are correct. There wouldn't be more of them . But they would be cheap and easy to buy.

No, they would not, because they are rare.

Rare items are not cheap on AHs in any game.

Sorry but that is where you are mistaken. With a million people all using the same auction house, yes rare items would be more than vendor cost. But not much. Because they are now convenient. GW2 has the same kind of rare crafting mats and they are abundant, easy to buy, and cheap because they are now conveniently easy to get.

Makkir

Blackwidow wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

If they add an AH, there will be more rares in ESO because....

That statement is totally LOADED like a baked potato with bacon!

I see.

So, it's okay to say there will be more rares, but it is not fair to ask how that is possible?

I see your point, actually I saw your point last night. Technically, and on a numerical standpoint you're correct. But what I am saying is right now that number of rares is kind of in check. Where those rares are located in the game right now makes them harder to obtain than with the global AH, and the same with stacks of raw materials.

I guess the proper word isn't saying "More" rares but more accessibility. Maybe it's a bad analogy but think of those coupons that say "Limit X per customer."
I am sure not everyone is deconning raw materials either, some probably vendor them. But at least with the Global AH the ones who do recognize the benefits of deconning can now do so and reach the entire player base instead of being limited to 5 trade guilds.

Debating whether that's a good or bad thing could be a discussion on it's own

I honestly want what's in the best interest for this game, not for myself. I'm not even a full blown crafter right now, but I am passionate about it. This game has a special place in my heart.

SFBryan18

Makkir wrote: »

Let me ask...If there was an Auction House and all those tempers were easily available and it was easy to find and get Legendary gear...would you all be OK with gear being repaired 3-5 times before it broke completely and you had to get it replaced?

I'm going to be honest, and this is just my opinion, I want to do a decent amount of work, say a hundred hours, to grind enough material for a legendary set, and then I want to be done with it. I don't like games that choose winners based on stats instead of skill. Now the next issue would obviously be diversity. If everyone could get them, then everyone would have the same stuff, but there are so many sets in this game, all they would really have to do for diversity is allow us the ability to increase the level of our items, and anyone could wear whatever they want. Has anyone ever realized that the most rare and probably never seen items are the legendary level 1 gear? I'm sure you can make them, but no one ever will, so they are just wasted textures if you ask me.

Makkir

I don't there there are enough sets in the game to support the 100s of combinations players can do with their characters. I understand, for instance, stamina builds need work.

Blackwidow

Makkir wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

If they add an AH, there will be more rares in ESO because....

That statement is totally LOADED like a baked potato with bacon!

I see.

So, it's okay to say there will be more rares, but it is not fair to ask how that is possible?

I see your point, actually I saw your point last night. Technically, and on a numerical standpoint you're correct. But what I am saying is right now that number of rares is kind of in check. Where those rares are located in the game right now makes them harder to obtain than with the global AH, and the same with stacks of raw materials.

So, you are saying is, it might be a little difficult for me to get rares, because there is no AH.

Not really. I just shout /WTB and wait around, bored for a few minutes until I get a tell.

Then I get to pay a much higher price than I would like, because prices are so not balanced in this game.

That is the only difference.

I honestly want what's in the best interest for this game, not for myself. I'm not even a full blown crafter right now, but I am passionate about it. This game has a special place in my heart.

So, I have to ask....

You are fighting for the availability of players ripping off other players, because there is no real base price for anything and no real way to do a safe price check.

You are fighting against prices being balanced and fair, with a way people can safely see what the population is willing to pay for an item.

Makkir

You know....you could whip out your convincing bargaining skills with those people who respond to your /wtb messages...
You just demonstrated you have the ability to find what you need, without an AH, but just unhappy you're paying more than you'd like.

Alphashado

Blackwidow wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

If they add an AH, there will be more rares in ESO because....

That statement is totally LOADED like a baked potato with bacon!

I see.

So, it's okay to say there will be more rares, but it is not fair to ask how that is possible?

I see your point, actually I saw your point last night. Technically, and on a numerical standpoint you're correct. But what I am saying is right now that number of rares is kind of in check. Where those rares are located in the game right now makes them harder to obtain than with the global AH, and the same with stacks of raw materials.

So, you are saying is, it might be a little difficult for me to get rares, because there is no AH.

Not really. I just shout /WTB and wait around, bored for a few minutes until I get a tell.

Then I get to pay a much higher price than I would like, because prices are so not balanced in this game.

That is the only difference.

I honestly want what's in the best interest for this game, not for myself. I'm not even a full blown crafter right now, but I am passionate about it. This game has a special place in my heart.

So, I have to ask....

You are fighting for the availability of players ripping off other players, because there is no real base price for anything and no real way to do a safe price check.

You are fighting against prices being balanced and fair, with a way people can safely see what the population is willing to pay for an item.

Oh come on already with balanced and fair prices. If you think something is too high, don't buy it. It's really that simple. Or better yet level up some crafting/gathering skills and go get them on your own. A lvl 3 character can get yellow mats for Pete's sake.

Blackwidow

Makkir wrote: »

You know....you could whip out your convincing bargaining skills with those people who respond to your /wtb messages...

Right, and when he says no, I could spend all day just shouting /wtb over and over until I find a price I want to actually pay....

or spend 5 minutes at an AH and then get back to playing with my friends questing.

You just demonstrated you have the ability to find what you need, without an AH, but just unhappy you're paying more than you'd like.

You act like a balanced pricing system is a bad thing.

Also, I did mention time as a factor.

Makkir

Blackwidow wrote: »

[
So, I have to ask....

You are fighting for the availability of players ripping off other players, because there is no real base price for anything and no real way to do a safe price check.

You are fighting against prices being balanced and fair, with a way people can safely see what the population is willing to pay for an item.

Trying to go after the bigger monster which is the possible negative effect it would have on the game. Yeah some people get scammed into paying more than what something's worse...but I think you're looking at paying 800gold versus 400gold, not getting ripped off for thousands. Gold is like water in this game and people are sitting on large sums with nothing to spend it on (I mentioned last night there needs to be more end game gold sinks, that can be in the form of new mounts, cosmetics, whatever).

And in all honesty, the AH doesn't need to dictate pricing. I think it's fair that if you are willing to pay me 800g for a motif, then it's worth 800g to you. Someone who plays casually might find more worth in an item than someone who plays all day and night and has 5 of that item. I think the fact you say the AH educates people about a fair price on an item is kind of more the fact people settle for what they "have" to get for an item if they want to sell it, rather than what they want for an item.

Doesn't mean you or I are right and wrong, just means we have a difference of opinion.

Blackwidow

Makkir wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

[
So, I have to ask....

You are fighting for the availability of players ripping off other players, because there is no real base price for anything and no real way to do a safe price check.

You are fighting against prices being balanced and fair, with a way people can safely see what the population is willing to pay for an item.

Trying to go after the bigger monster which is the possible negative effect it would have on the game.

What specific negative affect are you trying to avoid, exactly?

Yeah some people get scammed into paying more than what something's worse...but I think you're looking at paying 800gold versus 400gold, not getting ripped off for thousands. Gold is like water in this game and people are sitting on large sums with nothing to spend it on (I mentioned last night there needs to be more end game gold sinks, that can be in the form of new mounts, cosmetics, whatever).

People with piles of gold are making that gold because they can sell stuff at much higher prices, because of a lack on an AH.

Also, people with piles of gold love that you don't have an AH, because they can buy rare crafts in bulk now and then sell them at even higher prices to the less fortunate.

And in all honesty, the AH doesn't need to dictate pricing.

The downside is?

I think it's fair that if you are willing to pay me 800g for a motif, then it's worth 800g to you.

Right, so it's okay to charge extremely high prices to people who can not have any way to know what it is really worth.

Yes, the upside to not having an AH is you can rip people off much easier.

I see you have no problem with that "monster"

Someone who plays casually might find more worth in an item than someone who plays all day and night and has 5 of that item. I think the fact you say the AH educates people about a fair price on an item is kind of more the fact people settle for what they "have" to get for an item if they want to sell it, rather than what they want for an item.

It's called supply and demand.

You are trying to stop an informed supply and demand.

You want a blind supply and demand.

Doesn't mean you or I are right and wrong, just means we have a difference of opinion.

If that helps you sleep at night.

Makkir

Hey, you're the one last night who said we shouldn't have to change a system for the cheaters (botters). There's a very small percentage of extreme scammers out there, implementing an AH to combat that shouldn't be on the forefront of the argument.
You want an AH for convenience and to balance S&D. I vouched an AH would hurt crafters...The Bigger Monster. We're in a unique game and I can't think of another MMO with the same parts:
- Gear comes from Crafters
- Gear does not deteriorate
- Gear > Skill (Generally speaking, why a v12 rolls over v10 and so on)

Makkir

As of now we are not going to get an AH, so what do we do with the current system that won't hurt crafters? We, community, have voiced concerns and made suggestions in the past that turned into patches. ZOS is watching and reading. We can't overhaul the game with a new system, but we can tweak the current.

- Guild UI needs improvement
- Inventory Management
- Trade Chat
- Kiosk Improvements
- Fixing certain builds (like stamina builds) would bring more demand for items outside the staff and dress.

Nazon_Katts

An auction house cannot ruin any economy. However, it has the nasty habit of showing how ruined the economy really is. So prior to installing such a feature, there needs to be put in a considerable amount of time balancing gold and item flow. Time ZOS could be gladly given, if they were just willing to spent.

Sooner or later they will have to deal with what happens when the low-level and/or new-player economical bubbles collide with max-level and veteran (as in old) economical bubbles at end game. While the current setup certainly helps with keeping mudflation in check for lower levels, in the endgame brackets it is already showing.

Ultimately this will lead to rather stable and low prices in lower level bubbles and ever increasing prices in endgame ones. Exploitation of this imbalance will further increase the gap and when coming near endgame levels, people will see a sudden rise in prices. Prices they won't be able to afford initially, since they couldn't partake in those markets right from the start and had to sell at much lower prices themselves.

Basically, that is the same problem a player would have to face when rolling a new character on a matured server. However, in ESO's case this will happen in VR or Champion, after people will have put a considerable amount of time into the game. I am most certain, this will yet again feel like hitting a brick wall. Maybe you'll see it coming this time around, but realizing you're not going to come to a stop in time, won't make it an any better experience.

This can be prevented by more accessible, asynchronous and public trade options that have a much broader reach than currently provided. So people would have access to the same market as high level, veteran players and can sell to them at those prices right from the start, building up the wealth needed to be competitive in the elder game.

And out of scholarly interest;

Muletide wrote: »

E-bay wasn't invented until after the 4th Era, when the Septim-ISP connected all the lands together through Dwemer fiber optics and people could access all trade outlets through one Azura-net portal.

I do wonder how the instant messaging and movement of items of considerable weight did work back in 2E. People could communicate, transport wares or even themselves all across Nirn and even beyond in just split seconds.

With such an awesome array of technomagical tools at their disposal, trade must have been even farther evolved than this e-bay that was mentioned to be invented in 4E. I can't find anything about that in my personal records, but the people of 2E most have had even more sophisticated methods of trade.

Blackwidow

Makkir wrote: »

Hey, you're the one last night who said we shouldn't have to change a system for the cheaters (botters). There's a very small percentage of extreme scammers out there, implementing an AH to combat that shouldn't be on the forefront of the argument.

Scamming is not cheating. Scamming is low and underhanded. In my opinion, anything that can fix that is all good in my book.

You want an AH for convenience and to balance S&D. I vouched an AH would hurt crafters...The Bigger Monster.

I guess you mean you like that the system makes it easier to overcharge people, then okay, you have every right to feel that way.

Scammers have rights to their opinions, also.

We're in a unique game and I can't think of another MMO with the same parts:
- Gear comes from Crafters
- Gear does not deteriorate
- Gear > Skill (Generally speaking, why a v12 rolls over v10 and so on)

These factors do not change anything as far as an AH goes. We already went over all that.

Makkir

@Nazon_Katts
Everyone knows Mage Portals were the FedEx across Tamriel.

Blackwidow

Makkir wrote: »

Everyone knows Mage Portals were the FedEx across Tamriel.

I don't know what that means.

On a side note, I just want to thank @Nazon_Katts @SFBryan18 and @Makkir for a lovely conversation with no name calling or rudeness.

So, thanks.

Makkir

Blackwidow wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

We're in a unique game and I can't think of another MMO with the same parts:
- Gear comes from Crafters
- Gear does not deteriorate
- Gear > Skill (Generally speaking, why a v12 rolls over v10 and so on)

These factors do not change anything as far as an AH goes. We already went over all that.

We did, but that part in bold is subject to speculation and opinion. I just outlined this game's uniqueness compared to other MMOs so I dont think it's fair to say we truly know what's going to happen. Wildstar has similar design to WoW, so we can make safe assumptions about the AH in that game. I don't want to see an AH destroy our crafters. If the gear came from raids, then I wouldn't care about an AH.

Oh and we do have a way to measure price fairness. If you list your item for 1000 gold and no one buys it, then you can re-list it for 800 gold. However, add to my checklist of things to fix that I think the 30 day listing period is a bit lengthy.

Makkir

God I fail so hard at quoting. I give up.

Blackwidow

Makkir wrote: »

God I fail so hard at quoting. I give up.

[ quote ] [/ quote ]

Phantax

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

That's how they envisioned the game, not only that a global AH would remove player interaction.

"That's how they envisioned the game, not only that a global AH would remove endless impersonal zone chat spam."

There, fixed that for you. Seriously? Player interaction? Does anybody honestly use their trade guilds for anything but the AH? Everyone I know simply sets up filters to ignore all guild related chat.

There is no meaningful player interaction taking place due to the absence of an Auction House. Simply having the crafter's name on items you buy is good enough for that.

The only other reason given, "it would destroy the economy," seems equally thin when you consider that if rare items are appropriately rare, and now that they have fixed all their dupe bugs and banned the exploiters, the economy should be able to balance itself out over time like every other game.

It sounds more like smoke to cover current technical limitations, and they will probably phase in larger and larger auction houses once they get that snag worked out.

Agreed. You pretty well nailed it on all points

Phantax

Makkir wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

That is just a complicated global AH, but I would even take an antiquated idea like that over guild stores.

BTW, do you remember the horrid lag back then in the bazaar with so many players all in one room?

I guess we can test that megaserver player load now.

Dude, come on. That was what....2002? I think technology has come a way since then.

Exactly, there is no technical reason a global/factional AH can't be implemented on a megaserver. Its already been done very successfully !

Crumpy

Who wants to join a guild of idiots just to buy/sell some items??