Why does every medieval/fantasy game leave out polearms nowdays?

AngryNord

Aeratus wrote: »

Furthermore, 2h axes and 2h maces in this and other fantasy games are totally unrealistic.

What's unrealistic with two-handed axes?

Nox_Aeterna

PBpsy wrote: »

It is pretty obvious I think. They want to avoid the work on another set of animations. In this game the animations for all weapons types are the same for each skill tree. Spears would require a new animations set for each weapon skill tree. If the would use the same animations it would look stupid because for most part swinging spears is kind of dumb.I have seen games using the same sword swinging animation for spears, it wasn't pretty. To put halberds and such it would require even more animation work. I think this is why we didn't have them in previous recent TES games either

Yeap , if i had to guess a reason , would be this one right here , while it is far from dumb to hit someone with a swinging spear , it is expected of such weapon to also be able to pierce the enemy , something that requires a new set of animations.

murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »

Spears and polearms doesnt make sense in high fantasy games. Mind you there are two types here:

Low fantasy - The type where magic is truly magical and rare, where armies clash and a "sorcerer" is more like Gandalf. Basicly, war is war and magic is magic. They are not one and the same. Another name is medieval fantasy, with emphasis on the medieval part. Game of Thrones is a prime example of medieval/low fantasy. It would still be that if a mage had stood atop the wall tossing the occassional fireball down on the wild folk army. But if there had been 100 mages there, it change the scope of magic...

High fantasy - A world where magic is everywhere. In an army, there would be mages every 10m in the lines tossing fireballs, popping sheilds, fighting with summoned demons etc and so on. War and magic is one and the same thing, men with swords fill the ranks but is more cannonfodder to the grand mages. Warfare is more about heroes fighting heroes than armies in formation.

Guess which genre ESO fit? The later, definetly. Defensive warfare with spears and pikes is pointless, because the enemy would simply have a mage walk forward and wipe out the entire defensive position in the flick of a finger. A polearm wont defend against a Storm Atronach dropping from the sky in the middle of your phalanx formation.

So no, I dont think pikes/polearms/spears make sense in ESO. Its not realistic in the world of Tamriel. Magic is more realistic in the world of Tamriel.

Hehehe you are right to a point :P , in most games this is the case , mages will destroy the rest because of their magic , hell , Dungeons and Dragons had this to insane levels and even now Pathfinder could not fix it , mages/druids are still much better than something like a fighter.

Still , this is a MMO and thus they will always search balance , but because of how absolute magic is , in the end , of all the many , MANY RPGs i played , magic users are always if not the best , one of the best picks in the game.

david.haypreub18_ESO

I'm not sure why, but somewhere between Morrowind and Oblivion, Bethesda lost its mind and developed an irrational hatred of the spear.

Afterwards, they even antagonized their own potential customers by essentially trolling them throughout the Skyrim process, even misleading their potential playerbase by showing a preview of the Skyrim add-on that showed creatures with spears; later, we learned that while these are spears to the diminutive creatures that wielded them, they only count as arrows to players. It is all but inexplicable that a company would so antagonize it's playerbase. It's not like the request for spears is uncommon or historically inaccurate.

The historical argument simply does not work. Two-handed axes and hammers were used a heck of a lot less, historically speaking, than spears... Like, orders or magnitude less. Spears were effective, and not just in massed combat. They were the basic, default weapon in most cultures. There are more than ten times more spearheads found from historical cultures than there are two-handed hammerheads. There is simply no good historical argument to be made against spears.

The only other reason is that the developers can't seem to muster the creativity to make them interesting. This is a cop out, because other games (indeed, other games in the Elder Scrolls series) have them and they are fine. They are telling us that a spear is just too limited in the number of things you can do with it... but a 2-handed hammer is somehow more versatile? Sorry, but that makes no sense.

I love Bethesda's games, but this is one recent (i.e. post Morrowind) policy change that I just can't understand. Even more disturbing is the way they keep trolling their own paying customers about it. That is just childish.

Aeratus

For skyrim, I can see how spears would have taken a lot of additional work to implement their longer range. However, in the clunky combat system of ESO, where daggers have a reach of 5m and enemy fireballs can shoot you through walls, spears need no additional combat mechanics as far as hitboxes go.

AngryNord wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Furthermore, 2h axes and 2h maces in this and other fantasy games are totally unrealistic.

What's unrealistic with two-handed axes?

First, they're way too large. Historical 2h axes looked like 1h axes but with a longer handle. Also, axes with double sided blades were never used for actual combat.

AngryNord

Aeratus wrote: »

What's unrealistic with two-handed axes?

First, they're way too large. Historical 2h axes looked like 1h axes but with a longer handle. Also, axes with double sided blades were never used for actual combat. [/quote]

I dunno, looking at this re-enactors daneaxe replica, I'd say the two-handed axes in ESO are too short.. Agreed on the double-sided blades tho. Funny enough the "basic" two-handed axe in ESO, at least for the Nords, is actually more like a Daneaxe, i.e. with a one-sided blade.

AlexDougherty

Hamfast wrote: »

Read the Inheritance Cycle, I think it's in book 3, the Comment is Made "The other side has Mages too"... Another comment was something to the effect of "Why toss away your only weapon, what are you going to fight with?" when speaking to a lad who had just thrown his spear at an enemy, leaving himself basically unarmed...

You don't necessarily throw a spear, you can just stab at the enemy with it.
Mostly people threw javelins, which were designed solely for throwing.

Vilixiti

I too want pole arms

Lynx7386

For those making the argument that spears/polearms (and really every melee option in general) doesnt make any sense in a 'high fantasy/extreme fantasy' setting with so much magic being tossed around - consider the fact that we have all manner of protective shields, enchanted armor, and spells of our own to ward off enemy magic. So many means of negating a hostile caster, who's probably wearing a linen dress for protection, means a melee combatant is probably going to be very effective - especially with a weapon that has the reach to kill that mage as he's trying to run away.



As for coming up with a skill line for it, and ability options, here's my suggestion:

Active 1: Sweep
0.5 second cast time
A sweeping attack that damages all enemies within a 10 meter radius.
Morph 1: Cleaving Sweep
Deals additional damage.
Morph 2: Low Sweep
Knocks down all nearby enemies.
Animation: A wide arc, 360 degree spin with the weapon after 'winding up' with the cast time

Active 2: Jab
A quick stab against a single target, dealing damage and causing the target to bleed for additional damage over time.
Morph 1: Piercing Jab
Reduces target's armor by 40%.
Morph 2: Punishing Jab
Knocks the target back.
Animation: A straightforward 'poking' attack

Active 3: Javelin
0.5 second cast time
Throw your weapon at the target, dealing heavy damage.
Morph 1: Harpoon
Activating the ability a second time pulls the target back to you.
Morph 2: Piercing Javelin
Damages all enemies in a line between you and the target.
Animation: straightforward wind back and throw.

Active 4: Spinning Strike
0.5 second cast time
A spinning attack that deals heavy damage to your target and additional damage to all enemies within 10 meters.
Morph 1: Whirling Blow
Increased damage to primary target and adds a knockback to all enemies hit.
Morph 2: Spinning Strikes
Channeled (3 seconds) - continually spin your weapon, dealing damage to all nearby enemies every 0.5 seconds for 3 seconds. You cannot move while using this ability.
Animation: A single spin for the main ability and morph 1, a continuing spin (once per second) for the second morph).

Active 5: Fend
Toggle on/off
While active, increases block amount by 50% and reduces block cost by 50%, but reduces damage dealt by 25%.
Morph 1: Ward
Also increases your spell resistance and armor by 10% while active.
Morph 2: Retaliate
While active, each melee attack against you has a 20% chance to initiate a counter attack against the attacker, dealing X damage and has a chance to set the attacker off balance.
Animation: When not blocking, perhaps some kind of circle around your feet or a glow on your weapon to show the buff. When blocking, instead of holding your weapon in front of you like a normal blocking animation, you'd spin the weapon in front of yourself as if fending off attacks.

Passive 1: Reach
(with a polearm weapon equipped)
Increases the range of your light and heavy attacks by 1/2 meters (normal range for attacks would be 7 meters, like twohanded).

Passive 2: Pikeman
(with a polearm weapon equipped)
Increases damage against mounted and large enemies by 5/10%
(large enemies would include things like gargoyles, trolls, most bosses, etc.)

Passive 3: Discipline
(when using polearm abilities)
Reduces the stamina cost of polearm abilities by 10/20%

Passive 4: Phalanx
(with a polearm weapon equipped)
Increases spell resistance, armor, movement speed, and damage by 1/2% for each friendly player within 10 meters that also has a polearm equipped (to a maximum of 10%)

Passive 5: Impale
(when using polearm abilities)
Increases damage for all polearm abilities by 15/30% against targets with less than 25% health.

kaosodin

rich_nicholsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Daoc had polearms and spears and that game came out over 14 odd years ago, I agree more weapons are needed in this game.

Realm of albion. Polearm.....I love it, the animation was rocking.....dude whips it high, and drops the hammer head of his blunt polearm.

Love me some daoc.....to bad pve sucks

Etharian

SWG had polearms ... just saying

Woolenthreads

Neutronium_Dragon wrote: »

They were common in real world historical warfare because they were the standard for massed armies, but most polearms simply aren't practical for the sort of combat you see in games like TESO. They're marvelous when used by a well-trained squad in formation in a relatively open environment and that isn't being bombarded while they do so. They're generally bad choices otherwise. Polarms just aren't going to work with a combat model that involves constantly dodge rolling out of AoEs (nevermind how you'd manage to pull that off while holding onto something like a pike), that only sometimes grants the convenience of open terrain, and that involves a handful of unhistorically-capable weirdos for whom squad discipline is an alien concept.

This is my "but". Polearms were cheap and easy to make and to be effective in 1v1 required a lot more training than a sword. This made them the most effective weapon to give a peasant who was drafted into the army because it didn't take much to make it effective in a group and they could never get enough training to be a threat.

The Swiss Halberd was acknowledged as being the deadliest weapon in the world for both novices and experts. It was deadly for novices because it'd get them killed in seconds being heavy and requiring skill and experience to use. In the hands of an expert, it was deadly to his opponents since he only had to hit them once, it just took patience and timing.

In this game, if they made it work as it does IRL then I think there'd be massive amounts of complaining because we.are.all.novices. . Think of it as being continually forced to use the 2H power hit that stuns, you'll get killed because the opponent has time to get in and CC your attacks every time.

Anvos

Aedh wrote: »

I'll just throw this vid out here as well, a sparing match between a spear wielder and a guy with a sword and bucker :
https://youtube.com/watch?v=O8RWLxlzTiM

I want spears and polearms in this game. You can be a bit creative, and add some "outlandish" moves like area knockdowns, etc.

Not quite sure how that really relates to eso as the shields in eso are all substantially larger and would cover most of those attacks, not to mention superior reach would be canceled by magicka.

As to the main topic, the main issue with polearms and crossbows I'd say is that they would require their own unique animations for attacks.

I do agree though that in worlds where magic is prevalent the primary usage of polearms is diminished greatly. At the same time though I don't get why more mages don't learn to use battle staffs instead of pure magic staffs.

Fuzzylumpkins

o.O what medieval genre fantasy game are you playing that doesn't have polearms?

- I have a thrust polearm merc in DAOC
- A pali in WoW using the heroic polearm off Thok from SoO
- A bounty hunter using a polearm in sw:tor (not genre, still polearm)
- Monk using a polearm currently in D3
- Orc using a polearm the last time I logged into Warhammer online.


I mean short of club penguin, what game doesn't have polearms? Have you even played any other games?

Oh my kid has just told me she is using a polearm on her weird cat thing in Wildstar. Again not the genra you speak of but still a polearm.

BBSooner

I think I'd rather have a second ranged non -magical using a crossbow or throwing weapons than have a fourth non-magical melee, as far as weapon types are concerned.

Singular

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Where are the slings? Whips. Polearms. Staff melee (not magick). Unarmed.

I mean, there's plenty of room out there for new skill lines and animations.

Unarmed? Blach!

Some_Jerk

I really want to see spears in this game, and polearms are also more than welcome.
You're right they are commonly left out - I think this is because the priority is on swords/daggers/greatswords/bows/magical wands or staves. It's easy to toss in maces and axes to the existing 2h and 1h lines, but spears or polearms would require a new line altogether, and this is why I think they're often just left out.

xanikk999

To those saying spears are useless in melee combat, they are simply wrong.

The spear since it has reach essentially prevents your opponent from getting close. This is why in the middle ages they kept developing longer and longer polearms culminating eventually into pikes. It was an arms race.

In other words your sword can't do crap if I'm wielding a spear and you can't get close. Not only that but because spears are so cheap to mass produce it's no wonder why they were historically the most common weapon in armies.

I55UE5

I just want any other MMO to make combat staves, like friars in DAOC... please I want to 360 jab people in the gut with a stick again..

semp3rfi

Actually pikes have been around since the ancient word. Look up alexander the great, conquered the known world at the tip of the sarrisa, long before the middle ages

Sure the sword has an advantage in close quarters, but thats why it was a side arm and could be drawn in the event

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Why does every medieval/fantasy game leave out polearms nowdays?

'Every'?

FFXIV has them, to name but one game released in the last year.

Lynx7386

Well, at the very least none of the mmo's i've played recently have had polearms. Some get close, but no cigar - like the poster that mentioned he used a polearm in sw:tor ... no, he didnt. He might have used a techstaff, or a double bladed lightsaber, but there are no polearms in that game.

In a lot of games they're heavily restricted as well - WoW only had polearms available to two classes at launch. Skyrim and oblivion both left out polearms. Dragon age came close with battlestaffs, but still not actual polearms and they couldnt be used as melee weapons. The altmer destro/resto staffs in this game look like spears/polearms, but still cannot be used as melee weapons.

I'm going to bring the topic up in my next guild discussion with the developers, but I think that there are several weapon types we should see added, including polearms, crossbows, and some form of unarmed (fist weapon) combat to get back our monks from oblivion.

Look at the weapon types we currently have:

Two-handed:
-Primarily fills a burst damage and control role.
-Average to below average AoE capability.
-Suitable as a hybrid melee/magic weapon with arcane warrior.

One handed + shield:
-Primarily fills a tanking and buffing/debuffing role.
-Below average damage output
-No AoE capability
-High defense
-Debuffs on enemy armor, spell resistance, damage, and movement speed.

Dual Wield:
-Primarily fills a heavy sustained and aoe damage role.
-Higher aoe damage than other melee weapons via whirlwind/shrouded daggers.
-Higher sustained single target dps than two handed, though arguably less burst.
-Utility via hit chance debuffs, snares, and self healing.
-Low defenses compared to both 1h/shield and 2h.

Bow:
-Ranged stamina dps option.
-Moderate to high AoE damage potential.
-Average single target damage potential.
-Moderate control via snares and immobilizes



To fit the three new lines in, I"d probably go with:

Polearms:
-Average damage output (on par with 2handed for sustained dps)
-High control value - area knockdowns/knockbacks/snares.
-High utility - Extended attack range, between melee and ranged (10 meters), allowing for slightly easier kiting or pursuing of kiting opponents
-Moderate survivability through bonuses to parrying/blocking (it's easy to deflect with a staff) - could possibly be the alternative tanking weapon if you dont want to use a shield.

Crossbows:
-Shorter range than bows (perhaps 15-20m instead of 28+)
-Few to no AoE options as opposed to bows, focused on single target/burst damage
-Control via knockdowns & stuns
-Utility via debuffs - armor piercing/reduction primarily

Unarmed (fist weapons):
-Lower damage output than other melee weapon types (lowest of those available)
-High utility via self buffs (techniques?) to improve defense, resource management, and even group buffs
-High control and defense - debuff enemy damage, increase dodge chance for self, etc.
-Not good for damage dealers, but would be great with extra resource management for both tanks and healers as an alternative to the shield or restoration staff.

Zakq

If you want to use polearms you should try out Chivalry: Medieval Warfare, it has an awesome combat system. As for polearms in an mmo... meh, wouldn't be very cool.

Jankstar

That would be a cool addition in a content patch.

I was pretty against whips when I first read it, but the more I think about it the more awesome it would be to have them or some flexible weapon like a flail or the DnD spiked chain.

Also mounted combat would be killer.

Twenty khajiit riding senche crashing into a squad of pike toting orcs outside of a keep while a dunmer whips a pack of argonians to reload the trebuchet faster would be awesome. This would be improved with the broken bodies of nords, but what wouldn't!

Mordria

Really? I think there's more important things that need to get fixed. But, good ideas..

Dahakra

Yes, yes and a third YES. It's a fantasy game i think dwelling on the "usefullness" of spears in single combat is silly. (Is any1 here aware of the awsomenees in the fight between The Red Viper of Dorne and The Mountain?) IF PEOPLE WANT SPEARS/POLERAMS devs should deliver!. I would love to see spear-combat (same goes for Skyrim eeeeh).

Lynx7386

well at least at the moment I -look- like I'm using a spear-ish weapon.

Guess that will have to suffice until someone at zenimax takes a hard enough bump on the head to realize the error.

deruddb14_ESO

Something like this would awesome https://youtube.com/watch?v=yzJis7VvORY

dodgehopper_ESO

A gigantic halberd or spear + shield stance would be fantastic. They've already got some of the animations available to them in Aedric spear. How cool if we could get a physical spear to go with it.

seaef

Mablung wrote: »

Haxer wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Rushing for release is why. Some things they obviously didnt have time for.

XD like Guild halls, player housing, the ability to meet up with groups in game, Craglorn, theives guild, dark brotherhood, guild store features...

All items that are basic in an Elder Scrolls single-player title.

Fixed it for you.

Phantax

Its already been stated many times there are too many POLLS on these forums....lol
Seriously though, this weapon type would fit in well with ESO. Animations that fit this weapon are already in the game so no reason why we couldn't get poles at a later date. (personally I'd like to see them in-game)