Why does every medieval/fantasy game leave out polearms nowdays?

Phantorang

murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »

Spears and polearms doesnt make sense in high fantasy games. Mind you there are two types here:

Low fantasy - The type where magic is truly magical and rare, where armies clash and a "sorcerer" is more like Gandalf. Basicly, war is war and magic is magic. They are not one and the same. Another name is medieval fantasy, with emphasis on the medieval part. Game of Thrones is a prime example of medieval/low fantasy. It would still be that if a mage had stood atop the wall tossing the occassional fireball down on the wild folk army. But if there had been 100 mages there, it change the scope of magic...

High fantasy - A world where magic is everywhere. In an army, there would be mages every 10m in the lines tossing fireballs, popping sheilds, fighting with summoned demons etc and so on. War and magic is one and the same thing, men with swords fill the ranks but is more cannonfodder to the grand mages. Warfare is more about heroes fighting heroes than armies in formation.

Guess which genre ESO fit? The later, definetly. Defensive warfare with spears and pikes is pointless, because the enemy would simply have a mage walk forward and wipe out the entire defensive position in the flick of a finger. A polearm wont defend against a Storm Atronach dropping from the sky in the middle of your phalanx formation.

So no, I dont think pikes/polearms/spears make sense in ESO. Its not realistic in the world of Tamriel. Magic is more realistic in the world of Tamriel.

You didnt only remove the need for any Polearms, but you are also telling us that Magic pr defintion should beat melee (aka stamina) weapons. Making anything but magic useless.

I dont see why Polearms is any more useless than swords, according to your logic.

Which would make ESO be only about magic, not making it "High Fantasy", but "Extreme Fantasy", with little to no diversity in character making.

That would completely suck and be boring. Please ZoS, add as much diversity to the game as possible, including different weapons.

But there are other more pressing issues imo, so please dont waste time on this before we got:

-Huge raids, 40+ man.
-Balanced the classes, including Templar dps boost & resource regen (Mag & Sta)
-Real rewards, Time Trials and PvP rankings are only for a very very few. Give us loot to be proud of, Combine loot with crafting for superior gear, for exampel an ancient armor that doesnt fit, craft it and it becomes superb.
-Personally I think we should have open world PvP, but Im aware thats not for everyone.

WrathOfRegicide

I never could understand why MMO's/fantasy RPGs don't add pole-arms to their games. It was the most widely used and basic medieval weapon. I think it has to do with creating enough and decent looking animations for it to be interesting enough to use, but I don't know for sure.

DeLindsay

I couldn't agree more, I'd love to see Polearms added to ESO.

murklor007neb18_ESO

Phantorang wrote: »

You didnt only remove the need for any Polearms, but you are also telling us that Magic pr defintion should beat melee (aka stamina) weapons. Making anything but magic useless.

I dont see why Polearms is any more useless than swords, according to your logic.

Which would make ESO be only about magic, not making it "High Fantasy", but "Extreme Fantasy", with little to no diversity in character making.

That would completely suck and be boring. Please ZoS, add as much diversity to the game as possible, including different weapons.

Hey I wont argue with you. You're absolutely right. Well not what should beat what, but you nailed ESO how it is. Magic beat everything. It sucks and its boring, yes. There is little to no diversity in making a character - its either magicka or nothing.

I didnt design the game, I'm just saying that if you want polearms/pikes/whatever... ESO is the wrong game. Its not a medieval fantasy. Its extreme fantasy as you so nicely put it. Fireballs and ***.

Elf_Boy

Lots of room for expacs and patches down the road. The skill system is awesome here because adding weapons would be fairly straight forward and everyone has access.

mndfreeze

Polearms are more for group combat, not individual use. You would have a squad of pikeman or spearman. They were not good at 1v1 fighting.

That said, I still think it would be a cool new skill line weapon addition to add in a general 2H polearm option, and then you can have some variations of different polearms that can all adhere to the same sort of animations, so its not more complicated then a single set of skills and single set of animations, regardless of what your polearms actual model looks like. I.e. generic thrusting and waving /slashing motions. etc

I bet if you give it more time, they will come out with some new weapon skill lines. But I don't see it happening for a LONG time. They have so many other skill lines and things to add in that are higher priority.

To the guy who said lances. Lances are only used for mounted combat, which doesnt exist in TESO and would most likely require some heavy changes and additions to add in, and even then mounted combat IMO mostly looks like ass and never gets pulled off quite right except in games where it specifically is the center and main purpse of the game.

isengrimb16_ESO

IIRC, the polearm/pike was best used against mounted knights - it's what made them passe moreso than cannon. You could get your pikesmen in trenches, who then gore the horses as they pass by/overhead. An unhorsed knight was generally a dead or captured one, by the time the armour got really tanky (anyone ever try on a chainmail shirt? Cripes, they're heavy all by themselves!)

Though I can envision that sort of battle for Cyrodiil, if they ever decide to add mounted combat ....

Spears/javelins were generally treated as throwing weapons (though if someone didn't get too close, you could gore them, or use it as a staff if they do), and we don't have throwing weapons at the moment.

semp3rfi

Lol not much you can do with a spear??!? You must be joking. See the spartans, see game of thrones, see oriental polearm combat. There are plenty of game mechanics that could be used.

Weapon reach
Column damage
Armour piercing
Distance displacement
Ranged throw.

Spears are left out of far too many games. I play them at any chance.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Polearms are among the most widely used weapons in the history of warfare, far more common on any historical battleground than the sword. Even when the firearm was introduced to the battlefield, polearms were still utilized in the form of bayonets attached to the muzzles of longrifles. Despite their common use in history, however, they are left out of nearly every RPG and MMORPG released in the last decade. Why do developers have such a seeming hatred for polearms and spears?

Funny thing now you mention it, there are actualy two initiates in skywatch training with spears near of the Warrior guild.

ArRashid

I think you people don't know anything about weapons you're talking about.

HALBERD (Pole(arm) with an axe and a sword/dagger-like blade top of it).
Halberds ain't spears.
Spears ain't Javelins (I'd like to see how far you'd throw a 2-4m long, heavy stick with a metal spearhead).

Those are 3 different weapons.
Javelins (while technically classified as spears) are more or less just sharpened sticks for throwing.
Spears are for thrusting (mainly horses, though earlier for forming phalanxes which could deal with almost anything that was rude enough to attack from the front)
Halberds are for slashing, but mainly for pulling riders from their horses


While I'd love to see them all in ESO (along with crossbow), I really doubt they'll add them.
Spears and Halberds would just be classified as 2handed (maybe with different animation set, but that's all), only Javelins could have a separate line, for being a THROWN weapon (though they COULD add more thrown weapons to it).
As for crossbow, I've already suggested it somewhere on the forum, but since it didn't get that many comments, I'm not in a mood to search for it to link it.

Lynx7386

They were common in real world historical warfare because they were the standard for massed armies, but most polearms simply aren't practical for the sort of combat you see in games like TESO. They're marvelous when used by a well-trained squad in formation in a relatively open environment and that isn't being bombarded while they do so. They're generally bad choices otherwise. Polarms just aren't going to work with a combat model that involves constantly dodge rolling out of AoEs (nevermind how you'd manage to pull that off while holding onto something like a pike), that only sometimes grants the convenience of open terrain, and that involves a handful of unhistorically-capable weirdos for whom squad discipline is an alien concept.

And how are massive 2h swords and mauls any better?

If you can dodge with a staff, you can dodge with a polearm. Not all of them were 13 foot pikes.

The chinese po-dao, for example, one of the most common infantry weapons in ancient china, was typically a 4-5 foot long staff with a 2 foot long blade affixed to one end. It had more leverage and force potential than any sword and afforded greater reach, while still being small enough to utilize effectively in close, cramped combat.

Here's a picture of a weapon very similar to a po-dao that I created myself a few years back, still have it hanging on the wall:

Polearms/Spears would work only if their range would be 10m, roughly the double of the melee range, otherwise pointless. But I'd really like to use a spear instead of a sword while tanking, most definitely, its historically effective afterall.

Obviously range would be the primary benefit of such a weapon.

Personally I would make polearms an entirely seperate weapon skill set (not utilized by the 2handed or 1h/shield tree), and give them unique abilities based on the weapon type: Sweeping, spinning, cleaving attacks that hit multiple enemies around you, and even a ranged attack to throw your weapon at the enemy like a javelin. Circular movements with abilities that knock back or knock down enemies would work as well.

Ultimately it would be a control-based weapon set more than a raw damage based weapon set.

I have to imagine there would be some balance issues with these items. You are talking about weapons that were designed for real world situations where they provide a specific reach advantage over their opponent. To balance these you would have to implement some sort of speed debuff along with a damage buff to the weapon type. Balancing like I said would be difficult.

I would love to see some form of the short spear in game at the very least.

A short cast time on the weapon set's abilities would probably work fine for limiting speed. 0.5-1 second cast times for some of the sweeping attacks, similar to the short cast time on uppercut for two handed.

Nick Konkle wrote:
When you get down to it, there isn't much you can really do with a spear. You can poke people with it with a jabbing motion, but there isn't really much else.

Lack of creativity, IMO.

90% of the weapon skill animations we have right now are poking motions, that didnt stop them.

True but they would throw them and occasionally slashed with them. We can take a fantasy turn with it and look at the way Achilles fought in the movie Troy.

The achilles vs hector fight in that movie is still my favorite pre-modern battle scene in any movie I've ever watched. He had some seriously good moves with that weapon.

That's a perfect example of how a polearm or spear weapon set should function, too - fluid, graceful, but lethal movements.

Maybe instead of having polearms as an entirely new weapon line it would be better to combine it with the current skill lines. This could work pretty well with a lot of the already existing abilities, like ransack, shield bash attacks, and a lot of the two hander abilities would work great with something like a glaive. The tricky part there though would be the difference in weapon reach.... and I couldn't hazard a guess as to how to solve that.

The problem with adding them to a current weapon tree is animations.

Go try dual wield or 1h/shield with a mace/hammer at the moment. Flurry makes it look like you're stabbing the enemy with your blunt weapon, ransack/puncture is the same - a stabbing attack with the dull end of the weapon.

They dont have different animations for each ability based on weapon type, they're all generalized animations that look really funky with some weapons.

It would be better to have a seperate polearm skill line that had it's own animations to properly capture how the weapon is used.

Guess which genre ESO fit? The later, definetly. Defensive warfare with spears and pikes is pointless, because the enemy would simply have a mage walk forward and wipe out the entire defensive position in the flick of a finger. A polearm wont defend against a Storm Atronach dropping from the sky in the middle of your phalanx formation.

So no, I dont think pikes/polearms/spears make sense in ESO. Its not realistic in the world of Tamriel. Magic is more realistic in the world of Tamriel.

Barring the fact that these weapons already exist in tamrielic lore, going against your statement of "they're not realistic in the world of tamriel", how does wielding a greatsword, or a pair of daggers, make any more sense when you're dealing with all that magic?

If I had to fight a mage, I'd want a weapon with some reach, not a pair of knives.

It is pretty obvious I think. They want to avoid the work on another set of animations. In this game the animations for all weapons types are the same for each skill tree. Spears would require a new animations set for each weapon skill tree. If the would use the same animations it would look stupid because for most part swinging spears is kind of dumb.I have seen games using the same sword swinging animation for spears, it wasn't pretty. To put halberds and such it would require even more animation work. I think this is why we didn't have them in previous recent TES games either

Which is why it makes more sense as a seperate skill line, rather than being jumbled in with the current weapon types.

Pre-CU SWG had some of the best animation work on pikes/polearms I've seen in any game, and that was made over a decade ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtyyevs10cU

Polearms are more for group combat, not individual use. You would have a squad of pikeman or spearman. They were not good at 1v1 fighting.

And that right there would be an awesome passive skill for the polearm weapon skill line: Increases damage and defense while using a polearm by X% for each allied player within 10 meters that is also using a polearm.

Spears/javelins were generally treated as throwing weapons (though if someone didn't get too close, you could gore them, or use it as a staff if they do), and we don't have throwing weapons at the moment.

We have throwing weapons in a way - the dual wield skill line's steel tornado, hidden blade and morphs all throw out daggers.

Falmer

Yes, Polearms were used heavily throughout history -- In lines of people against cavalry charges.

A polearm isn't really a good 1 on 1 dueling weapon. They have reach, but if you get inside its swing radius... the wielder is done for.

You used polearms to kill the horse or at least unseat the rider. Then you drew your sword to finish them off.

AlexDougherty

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Back before even beta started up, there were a ton of polls on the official ESO forums back on the bethesda site asking about what weapons we most wanted to see in the game. It was already known that we'd have the basics - swords, maces, axes, greatswords, mauls, battleaxes, and staves - but the polls included a variety of other weapons, some common in ES lore and others not.

Polearms and spears always topped those polls, ranking even above hand to hand combat and throwing weapons.

Spears were a usable weapon in TES III: Morrowind, and polearm/spear weapons have been established in elder scrolls lore since as far back as I can remember. Why, then, do we not have any in ESO?

Polearms are among the most widely used weapons in the history of warfare, far more common on any historical battleground than the sword. Even when the firearm was introduced to the battlefield, polearms were still utilized in the form of bayonets attached to the muzzles of longrifles. Despite their common use in history, however, they are left out of nearly every RPG and MMORPG released in the last decade. Why do developers have such a seeming hatred for polearms and spears?

Since games have become more complex, polearms have become an increasingly difficult weapon set to code. In the old days the spears would just jab ahead of you.

But players have seen a lot more films were spears are use like a staff with a blade at the tip, which is hader to code into a game. Halberds and poleaxes are even more problematic, hard to get the animations right, plus players wouldn't like the real limitations of these weapons. They are good for sentry duty, and an all out assault of another army, but awkward for adventuring.

Not saying they shouldn't introduce polearms & spears. Spears and staffs(non magical) should be coded into most fanatasy games, once one modern game does it, other will copy, they'll have to. Polearms could be shortened versions (didn't happen in real life) with fewer disadvantages, somewhere between a spear and an axe in action.

AngryNord

thebigfist wrote: »

agreed. i want 2h polearms and 1hand spears.

Amen

AngryNord

Mablung wrote: »

Terminus wrote: »

I actually talked to Nick Konkle about spears during the Tamriel Garden last year, because many people were rallying about them.
This is what he had to say:

Nick Konkle wrote:

When you get down to it, there isn't much you can really do with a spear. You can poke people with it with a jabbing motion, but there isn't really much else. It's not an effective weapon for close combat. We might add pikes in later though.

Spears? no. Polearms/Pikes? Maybe, I'd like to see them added.

Cannot do anything with spears? Tell that to the Spartans.

Or the Vikings, which also used spears in close combat...

Raash

hmm might be because poles are danced around or used to try jump higher with usually? I agree with the devs: less dancng and sissy sports and more fighting!

AlexDougherty

Raash wrote: »

hmm might be because poles are danced around or used to try jump higher with usually? I agree with the devs: less dancng and sissy sports and more fighting!

What????

People are asking for a class of weapons to be introduced, and you refer to maypoles????

UrQuan

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Raash wrote: »

hmm might be because poles are danced around or used to try jump higher with usually? I agree with the devs: less dancng and sissy sports and more fighting!

What????

People are asking for a class of weapons to be introduced, and you refer to maypoles????

Not maypoles, stripper poles.

Raash

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Raash wrote: »

hmm might be because poles are danced around or used to try jump higher with usually? I agree with the devs: less dancng and sissy sports and more fighting!

What????

People are asking for a class of weapons to be introduced, and you refer to maypoles????

Poles are poles, polearms, maypoles or dancers poles, all same to me

Evergnar

Basic 2h pole would be cool. I do appreciate what they did put in game, like biting jabs/puncturing sweep. Also staff bash. I actually do bash with my staves quite a bit (from sneak) just for lulz.

I agree though that introducing new animations in the games current state may not be the best idea right now.

Kulrig

Nick Konkle wrote:

When you get down to it, there isn't much you can really do with a spear. You can poke people with it with a jabbing motion, but there isn't really much else. It's not an effective weapon for close combat. We might add pikes in later though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al1CpCfSEHo



There is a whole lot more to spear use than "poking people with a jabbing motion".

driosketch

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Spears were a usable weapon in TES III: Morrowind, and polearm/spear weapons have been established in elder scrolls lore since as far back as I can remember. Why, then, do we not have any in ESO?

They don't have them because they haven't been a usable weapon since the last two games. The simplification of the game weapons has been happening for a long time. Just look at everything we used to have back in TES II.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Weapons

Yes, that's two classes of bow, four Japanese style blades, non magical staves, and a flail. I want to see flails make a comeback.

Surinen

Falmer wrote: »

Yes, Polearms were used heavily throughout history -- In lines of people against cavalry charges.

A polearm isn't really a good 1 on 1 dueling weapon. They have reach, but if you get inside its swing radius... the wielder is done for.

You used polearms to kill the horse or at least unseat the rider. Then you drew your sword to finish them off.

actually polearms were the most common and effective weapons since the dawn of humanity. spear for an example is a perfectly fine single combat weapon, proved, inter alia, by the famous samurai (who opposedly to pop culture myths, have not used katana on the battlefields)

personally I'm not a fan of translating reality into fantasy when it comes to combat and that is why I like big useless swords and shields that I would rather sell for food than use in the fight (for my own safety).

that being said, there is no justification why there are not polearms in the game. I would like to wield shield and use spear. I'm all for many different kind of weapons [ http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/942188#Comment_942188 ]

Sakiri

WrathOfRegicide wrote: »

I never could understand why MMO's/fantasy RPGs don't add pole-arms to their games. It was the most widely used and basic medieval weapon. I think it has to do with creating enough and decent looking animations for it to be interesting enough to use, but I don't know for sure.

Polearms are reach weapons with the brace feature in D&D 3.5/Pathfinder.

Theyre absolutely garbage in true melee range because I can go toe to toe with you and my daggers/swords, and YOU CANT HIT ME. My 5 foot reach is inside your reach. To hit me you need to switch weapons, which takes time without quick draw.

The main use for polearms is brace, which is used to counter a charge attack.

What youre likely thinking of are shortspears, and theyre mostly useless by the time heavy armor showed up.

Aedh

I'll just throw this vid out here as well, a sparing match between a spear wielder and a guy with a sword and bucker :
https://youtube.com/watch?v=O8RWLxlzTiM

I want spears and polearms in this game. You can be a bit creative, and add some "outlandish" moves like area knockdowns, etc.

Hamfast

Read the Inheritance Cycle, I think it's in book 3, the Comment is Made "The other side has Mages too"... Another comment was something to the effect of "Why toss away your only weapon, what are you going to fight with?" when speaking to a lad who had just thrown his spear at an enemy, leaving himself basically unarmed...

Yes, a Mage tosses a fireball and wastes 3/4 of the untrained rabble in the group coming at him with their spears and Shields... then their mage blasts him...

Spears and Crossbows have history in both medieval combat and fantasy, it is easier to teach a raw recruit how to use a Spear or Crossbow then to use a sword and bow, good Archers took years to train, crossbowman took weeks...

Formation Tactics with 1 hand spear and shield were basics, pikes a bit harder, but not much, Halberds still harder, in the movies it's the pikes in the front 2 ranks, Horse had to be trained to charge into a pike formation, it's not natural for them to throw themselves on long pointy sticks, Halberds would be behind them ready to pull down those that made it over the pikes...

Personally, I can see reasons and ways that all could fit, but it would require another set of Animations, face it, right now, Mauls, Great Axes or 2 handed Swords all share the same animations, each weapon skill line uses the same animations regardless of the weapon used, for the most part, weapons are cosmetic.

I would also like to see Long Bows/Great Bows, what we have now is the easier to master Short bow, but that would require a lot longer range... 3 or 4 times, greater penetration, and a slower learning curve...

Sakiri

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Raash wrote: »

hmm might be because poles are danced around or used to try jump higher with usually? I agree with the devs: less dancng and sissy sports and more fighting!

What????

People are asking for a class of weapons to be introduced, and you refer to maypoles????

I just had a Swede tell me he wanted to watch me make an idiot of myself dancing around next years maypole. Thanks for reminding me. -_-

Raash

Hmm, on a second thought I might be up for they let spears and stuff into the game, just wonder how they would work in combat? Light poke & hard poke?
1: wave it around the air inflict minor damage and inflict enemy with laughter debuff for 5 sec
2: pole jump set for the stars when stuff get rough(like a new bolt escape just fly upwards instead of by ground,
3: kneel and poke heavy damage on mounted enemies only (vulnerable to critical strikes during the 5sec attack)
4: Super samurai hammer-like punch over head swing that inflict 200 damage and disorient target
5: "starwars kid"-like attack combo almost an ultimate on its own, if you ever hit anything.

Aeratus

To those who say that polearms aren't realistic weapons for melee combat, I say that's totally BS.

How many times in history have you seen people dual wield swords in actual combat? Very few. On the other hand, spears were routinely used even in close combat.

Furthermore, 2h axes and 2h maces in this and other fantasy games are totally unrealistic.

So the point is, if you're talking realistic practicality, spear > dual wield, 2h axes, 2h maces

AngryNord

Sakiri wrote: »

I just had a Swede tell me he wanted to watch me make an idiot of myself dancing around next years maypole. Thanks for reminding me. -_-

If it's a comfort, from what I've heard being naked is optional.