Overall Gameplay too difficult?

Lynnessa

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

First I want to say people that have posted on this topic so far (with one exception) have made great arguments and it's a good read.

It's me, isn't it? I'm the exception? I wasn't really trying to make an argument, though...

steveb16_ESO46

[Moderator Edit: Edited/Removed quote from moderated post.]

You are so far from getting it, you're somewhere near Pluto. What you call 'casuals' are also people like me. Experienced, been playing for years MMO types who enjoy good, challenging gameplay. I like good, complex raids as much as the next man.

This isn't good gameplay. It is a specious grind. It is not 'challenging' it is ridiculous, especially when coupled with stupid repair and respec costs and the all builds except one essentially crippled. Not to mention at least 2 classes so weak that it's a joke.

The problem is - it's just not fun, even to me - an experienced MMO player and a huge ES fan.

If ESO is to be a huge sub game it has to appeal to more than those happy to grind through combat after combat, eating huge repair bills for a story that makes no sense.

I'm used to challenge coming from more than applying a huge multiplier to standard trash mobs. That is just lazy. Which is what this whole VR is. A lazy and cheap side-step of providing the end-game they probably intended.

Real challenge comes from complex content not trash mobs spamming artificially ramped up attacks most players cannot deal with with the crippled classes, crippled builds and crippled UI. specifically weapon swapping, intermittent skill failures and latency.

You can keep telling yourself about the huge player base that's going to stick with this model but sooner rather than later the people really in control are going to look at the subs and look at the non-renewals and they're going to ask 2 questions:

What the hell is going on and what are you going to do about it?

None of us will like the answers.

Alphashado

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Dusty5 wrote: »

[Moderator Edit: Edited/Removed quote from moderated post.]

.

You are so far from getting it, you're somewhere near Pluto. What you call 'casuals' are also people like me. Experienced, been playing for years MMO types who enjoy good, challenging gameplay. I like good, complex raids as much as the next man.

This isn't good gameplay. It is a specious grind. It is not 'challenging' it is ridiculous, especially when coupled with stupid repair and respec costs and the all builds except one essentially crippled. Not to mention at least 2 classes so weak that it's a joke.

The problem is - it's just not fun, even to me - an experienced MMO player and a huge ES fan.

If ESO is to be a huge sub game it has to appeal to more than those happy to grind through combat after combat, eating huge repair bills for a story that makes no sense.

I'm used to challenge coming from more than applying a huge multiplier to standard trash mobs. That is just lazy. Which is what this whole VR is. A lazy and cheap side-step of providing the end-game they probably intended.

Real challenge comes from complex content not trash mobs spamming artificially ramped up attacks most players cannot deal with with the crippled classes, crippled builds and crippled UI. specifically weapon swapping, intermittent skill failures and latency.

You can keep telling yourself about the huge player base that's going to stick with this model but sooner rather than later the people really in control are going to look at the subs and look at the non-renewals and they're going to ask 2 questions:

What the hell is going on and what are you going to do about it?

None of us will like the answers.

This. Those of us that love this game and want to to succeed are able to see the bigger picture here. And it is very simple. Any good AAA MMO needs happy casual gamers just as much as it needs happy hardcore gamers. Catering to only one crowd or the other will lead to a disastrous decline in subscriptions. Such a decline will be almost impossible to climb out of.

I still believe that the solution would be to leave the dungeons challenging and tone down the VR trash mobs. That formula is tried and true and has proven to be successful in countless MMOs. But there needs to be a balance. There needs to be a little something for everyone. Right now ESO is a hardcore gamers playground. I am somewhere in the middle. I grumble sometimes but I still enjoy it and I am progressing.

But there are sooo many casual gamers that just want a place to chill and they are willing to throw astronomical amounts of money at ZoS if they would only toss them a bone.

I have seen some very insightful opinions from both sides of the isle here and I appreciate that. Constructive feedback is helpful and we all know that threads like this get attention.

Sadly you will always have narrow minded tunnel visioned opinions, but hopefully maturity will prevail here.

Elder_Thorn

i am v1 now, and i found it way to easy until now. I wish i'd be a bit harder

nerevarine1138

Alphashado wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Dusty5 wrote: »

[Moderator Edit: Edited/Removed quote from moderated post.]

You are so far from getting it, you're somewhere near Pluto. What you call 'casuals' are also people like me. Experienced, been playing for years MMO types who enjoy good, challenging gameplay. I like good, complex raids as much as the next man.

This isn't good gameplay. It is a specious grind. It is not 'challenging' it is ridiculous, especially when coupled with stupid repair and respec costs and the all builds except one essentially crippled. Not to mention at least 2 classes so weak that it's a joke.

The problem is - it's just not fun, even to me - an experienced MMO player and a huge ES fan.

If ESO is to be a huge sub game it has to appeal to more than those happy to grind through combat after combat, eating huge repair bills for a story that makes no sense.

I'm used to challenge coming from more than applying a huge multiplier to standard trash mobs. That is just lazy. Which is what this whole VR is. A lazy and cheap side-step of providing the end-game they probably intended.

Real challenge comes from complex content not trash mobs spamming artificially ramped up attacks most players cannot deal with with the crippled classes, crippled builds and crippled UI. specifically weapon swapping, intermittent skill failures and latency.

You can keep telling yourself about the huge player base that's going to stick with this model but sooner rather than later the people really in control are going to look at the subs and look at the non-renewals and they're going to ask 2 questions:

What the hell is going on and what are you going to do about it?

None of us will like the answers.

This. Those of us that love this game and want to to succeed are able to see the bigger picture here. And it is very simple. Any good AAA MMO needs happy casual gamers just as much as it needs happy hardcore gamers. Catering to only one crowd or the other will lead to a disastrous decline in subscriptions. Such a decline will be almost impossible to climb out of.

I still believe that the solution would be to leave the dungeons challenging and tone down the VR trash mobs. That formula is tried and true and has proven to be successful in countless MMOs. But there needs to be a balance. There needs to be a little something for everyone. Right now ESO is a hardcore gamers playground. I am somewhere in the middle. I grumble sometimes but I still enjoy it and I am progressing.

But there are sooo many casual gamers that just want a place to chill and they are willing to throw astronomical amounts of money at ZoS if they would only toss them a bone.

I have seen some very insightful opinions from both sides of the isle here and I appreciate that. Constructive feedback is helpful and we all know that threads like this get attention.

Sadly you will always have narrow minded tunnel visioned opinions, but hopefully maturity will prevail here.

I'm a casual gamer. I prefer games with a challenge.

Shiroro

They need to balance questing so that it can be done comfortably solo or they need to have auto-grouping tools that are simple and sophisticated enough that you can queue for specific quest areas automatically and share all quests automatically, from anywhere in the world, and give players a portion of the quest completion experience for helping. A lot easier to just balance the content...

mips_winnt

Winnower wrote: »

WoW and SW:TOR present no - repeat no - challenge at all. To me those are games which are all bells and whistles with no real substance.

Just out of curiosity , when you played WoW were you doing heroic mode raids? how about 2K+ arena matches? rated BG's ?

If not you really don't have any basis for claiming that WoW presents "no - repeat no - challenge at all" since you haven't really experienced the content that was meant to be challenging for more hardcore MMO gamers.

IMHO if you want to look at an MMO that provides something for all types of MMO players, without locking casuals out of large swaths of content due to frustrating difficulty levels then WoW is it , might explain why it's the most popular MMO on the market even after 10 years of being there. I don't however want ESO to turn into a WoW clone but I do believe that ZOS can learn something from the way WoW has managed to keep all levels of it's player base relatively satisfied with the diversity of content over the years even to the point that casual players can now enjoy raid content that was previously unreachable for them (LFR level difficulty).

Jankstar

I think it is too easy. Time to step it up! I wish you could op in for higher difficulty, like when they had the bug after craglorn. Rewards stay the same, no extra achievements just bragging rights and satisfaction.

claytonjhouserb14_ESO

I've played since morrowind in ES and have now beaten both darksouls and nothing is as ridiculous VR content. I love content that gives challenge but when I'm still on the same quest due to trash mobs or an over powered boss is when I get frustrated. I'm a huge lore junkie and love to see the world but when it means being killed 20 times its not so grand anymore. I appreciate people who enjoy playing this way but for the most part this should not be a part of the more casual gameplay side which is depressing to know it is. Creating a build that works in these situations defeats the purpose and is quite hypocritical since this game is supposively a "create your own build" I shouldn't have to look for the current cookie cutter build in this game.

Desdemonte

claytonjhouserb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm not a complainer and not here to down rate just here because I've had three of my friends quit from sheer difficulty. They love the environment and the emersion just when it comes down to gameplay it is just plain stressful. No body likes to die over and over just to finish what started as a simple quest or finish a dungeon just to find an over difficult boss. Many of us prefer single player gameplay but in many places this just isnt allowed. I'm vet rank 7 and have since given up trying to continue cause I continually die. I just wish they could move down the difficulty or remove vet ranks for more casual players or roleplayers just looking for a loretastic time. All opinions appreciated.

No, and I'm a NB.

redwoodtreesprite

Going to do a compilation of my comments on a thread I did earlier. Won't be able to respond past today however, as both me and my hubby cancelled our subs two days ago, and today is our last sub day:

---

When I read the hype on this game, it sounded like there would be plenty for a casual soloer to do after doing the 1-49 content. Silly me, I even thought there would be some logic to going to the other two factions and questing. It sounded interesting. But all I have read suggests that the vet questing is like being in an insanely hard instance with all elite mobs that can quickly kill you if you don't play very carefully. And with Craglorn, it doesn't sound any better.

So, is this it? Level 1-49 interesting questing, and then all hard mode?

So has anything been suggested for the future from this company other than hard group content?

Please note that I am not asking for vet difficulty to be changed into easy mode. There are different types of players in MMOs, and they all deserve to have an enjoyable time playing. But it doesn't sound like this game has anything to offer past level 49 for more casual players. Instead it seems like a typical end game oriented MMO, with interesting solo/duo content up to a certain level to let you get your character to where he/she can handle the hard mode group content. And then after that, all group content.

Thing is, me and my hubby have a hard time with some of the basic quest bosses in content below level 20. I don't think we will be able to handle those same bosses at vet level. Right now, me and my hubby can't handle most groups of mobs that are more than three without almost dying at best. Especially if there are spell casters or ones that do elemental damage. More than 3, we die. Too many dots, too many damage dot circles on the ground to avoid. I have read other comments about this, so I know it is not just us. Some bosses are insanely hard for us. Don't know if it is lag, NPCs not doing protective circles to stand in or something else. But that one evil mage that was responsible for the werewolf? He just kept one-shot killing us. Also kept cloning himself and becoming immune to damage while calling lots of trash mobs. We finally gave up on the fight and moved on to the next area.

Fighting him at vet levels would be insanely hard.

So past 49, one has to treat every combat as a hardmode instance special combat, using lots of crowd control and such? And even then you almost die from what I have been reading. That does not sound like any sort of fun to me.

Sigh.... Might be time to actually think about those sub cancellations. If we wait for half a year or so, the journey to level 49 might be more enjoyable, with the bots under control and all those early quests actually fixed so we can finish them. Then we can play our characters to level 49, taking our time on all of them, and hope that by the time we get them all to 49 there might be some actual new content that we can enjoy at level 50.

Sendarya

I'm all for a good difficulty in playing, it adds to the enjoyment, but vet levels are not difficult, they are randomly EXTREMELY difficult with LESS rewards than previous less difficult content. That is just stupid!

I used to be a hardcore raider/hardcore player, but I've calmed down in my old age, lol. I still need difficulty to enjoy a game, but it has to be reasonable.

Levels 1-50 in this game were great. I love the fight mechanics, dodging and blocking is still required a good portion of the time. Story was entertaining and engaging, exploring really was rewarded. Vet levels, on the other hand, just make most people want to quit. And I did, I have a little over 24 hours left on m account now.
I tried to roll and alt, got one to lvl 35, another to lvl 10-ish, but I knew they same brick wall of vet content was waiting for me...

For the last week, all I do is log in to get my mail, see if I need to start more research on my vet level main, *** around on one of my alts for a bit, get discouraged and/or depressed, and log out again.

I don't even know if the problem is fixable.

Dusty5

We could ask for a difficulty setting switch. Setting 1. Could be larger zones with stronger npc's and added numbers. Say rewards will boost 10% as well as more VR content. Setting 2 would be no changes at all. Setting 3 would be smaller zones. NPCs would not be allowed sharp pointed weapons and buff food cookies could be found outside of dungeons. After zone completion there would be a tickertape parade from each major town to usher in the next zone These settings could meet the needs of all our brave players.

GreySix

I don't think gameplay is too difficult, but being forced into solo play in this MMO should never happen, or they run the risk of alienating casual couples (most of whom won't bother coming here to post).

Sendarya

Nyswar wrote: »

Have we got a number on people saying they don't like the difficulty?

Yes, the number of Vet Levels are killing this game threads are in the dozens, and the number of people quitting due to vet levels are very high.

Nyswar wrote: »

As I recall, it was the aspect of the game that beta testers almost universally praised.

Oh, and there is no trash mob in this game that requires "perfect" execution. Even as a vampire, I can take fire damage from a trash mob's power attack and still win the fight. I'll have to do some quick healing, but why don't you think I should be punished for standing in the fire?

Yes, in vet levels, there are many, many trash mobs that require perfect execution or you die. Stand in their AOE for 1 second ONE time, and you die. That is endgame boss mob hard, not outdoor trash mob hard.

Yes folks, another person who is clearly talking about level 1 through 50 when the rest of us are talking about vet level content (especially vet levels 3+).

Maybe read the thread or at least the entire OP before commenting...mmmkay?

Nathano

Sendarya wrote: »

Nyswar wrote: »

As I recall, it was the aspect of the game that beta testers almost universally praised.

Oh, and there is no trash mob in this game that requires "perfect" execution. Even as a vampire, I can take fire damage from a trash mob's power attack and still win the fight. I'll have to do some quick healing, but why don't you think I should be punished for standing in the fire?

Yes, in vet levels, there are many, many trash mobs that require perfect execution or you die. Stand in their AOE for 1 second ONE time, and you die. That is endgame boss mob hard, not outdoor trash mob hard.

Yep, your right. There are plenty of mobs that can pretty much 1 shot you. For example the below screenshot is from a harvester mob that I had to kill for a quest. The ability it used 1 shot me at full health (even with overcharged spell resist). It was a frontal cone attack which has a very short cast time (about 1 second) which is very difficult to interrupt/dodge especially when you take in to account the 500ms lag I often get from the useless "mega"server. And as a melee player it is very difficult to avoid the frontal attack and with the healing orbs the fight can go on for a very long time. So having an ability that can 1 shot you is just plain frustrating and very poor design.

Lynnessa

I'm a casual, I think. What other explanation is there for the fact that I'm barely level 30 when so many others are already bored because they've been at max level and done it all?

Seriously, though...

Sendarya wrote: »

Yes, in vet levels, there are many, many trash mobs that require perfect execution or you die. Stand in their AOE for 1 second ONE time, and you die. That is endgame boss mob hard, not outdoor trash mob hard.

Is it weird that I'm actually looking forward to that? Monster Hunter is one of my favorite games, largely because of the fact that one false move means death.

rrood41828

There are a variety of ways to play this game. I've got great-grandkids, so along with some short term memory problems, my days of lightning fast reactions are long gone. I'll never hit high level on my own, nor do I care.
I group up with two grown daughters and we have a great time. I have another character that I play alone, and just go off exploring, taking in the lore and doing what I can.
In Skyrim, I took my little Breton girl (mod) thief/pickpocket, with no shoes, no armor and a rusty dagger, and turned her into the Dragonborn. What she did have going for her was stealth, speed, patience and street smarts. After "beating" the game and finishing the expansions she still had no shoes, no armor and a rusty dagger. Of course she had most of the shouts and spells by that time. One arrow hit from a hidden bandit and she was down, but she didn't die very often.
Of course, that was Skyrim, but if you adapt to what the game offers you can usually work around the difficulty if you feel that it's worth the effort.

MrBandicoot

claytonjhouserb14_ESO wrote: »

Many of us prefer single player gameplay but in many places this just isnt allowed.

I dont try to be mean or anything... but you realise this is called The Elder Scrolls Online?

i dont even... oh well.

Cogo wrote: »

I think people who dont like the game wants it to fail somehow. I dont understand this way of thinking, but its a free world. Say and think what you will.

Excellent point.

I have the same feeling. Most of the time they dont even bother for this game.

Wildstar, WoW fanboys and such you know what im talking about i guess.

All others i know are quite satisfied with the game. Sure there are bugs and its annoying. But still they and me wont leave because we like this game.

Most of the 'nonsense' complainers would be going YESSSSS!!! i knew it they didnt made it! its f2p.

I wonder though... why do they even play this game with this way of thinking.

#nolife

Worstluck

Lynnessa wrote: »

I'm a casual, I think. What other explanation is there for the fact that I'm barely level 30 when so many others are already bored because they've been at max level and done it all?

Seriously, though...

Sendarya wrote: »

Yes, in vet levels, there are many, many trash mobs that require perfect execution or you die. Stand in their AOE for 1 second ONE time, and you die. That is endgame boss mob hard, not outdoor trash mob hard.

Is it weird that I'm actually looking forward to that? Monster Hunter is one of my favorite games, largely because of the fact that one false move means death.

Then go play Monster Hunter or Dark Souls, no offense meant. This is an MMO, that has latency, weapon swapping issues (it's not clean like GW2), and as I still have abilities just not work sometimes.

I am all for very challenging boss mechanics (most are not) and elites, quest bosses and what not to be able to one shot me or do serious damage to me if I make a mistake. I don't want some random bandit witch casting a spell that can one shot me if I make a mistake while doing an escort quest that gets me 150 gold and 3k vp and I know I am not the only who feels this way.

Veteran content just needs balancing that's all. There have been so many problems with the game, and ZOS has got to push out new content, so hopefully someday they can look at it.

sigsergv

MrBandicoot wrote: »

I dont try to be mean or anything... but you realise this is called The Elder Scrolls Online?

That sounds nice, but in reality we don't have any working grouping tools. Just visit veteran Crow's Wood and try to find someone there to do group challenge. The same for regular locations, there is just no way to help someone because of phasing. This game is designed as single player PvE-game with optional group dungeons.

Lalai

Worstluck wrote: »

Lynnessa wrote: »

I'm a casual, I think. What other explanation is there for the fact that I'm barely level 30 when so many others are already bored because they've been at max level and done it all?

Seriously, though...

Sendarya wrote: »

Yes, in vet levels, there are many, many trash mobs that require perfect execution or you die. Stand in their AOE for 1 second ONE time, and you die. That is endgame boss mob hard, not outdoor trash mob hard.

Is it weird that I'm actually looking forward to that? Monster Hunter is one of my favorite games, largely because of the fact that one false move means death.

Then go play Monster Hunter or Dark Souls, no offense meant. This is an MMO, that has latency, weapon swapping issues (it's not clean like GW2), and as I still have abilities just not work sometimes.

I am all for very challenging boss mechanics (most are not) and elites, quest bosses and what not to be able to one shot me or do serious damage to me if I make a mistake. I don't want some random bandit witch casting a spell that can one shot me if I make a mistake while doing an escort quest that gets me 150 gold and 3k vp and I know I am not the only who feels this way.

Veteran content just needs balancing that's all. There have been so many problems with the game, and ZOS has got to push out new content, so hopefully someday they can look at it.

Telling someone to go play something else doesn't really contribute to the conversation at hand, nor does it make much sense to tell someone to go play something else when the current game they're playing sounds like it fits their tastes just fine.

I don't think Veteran content needs a whole ton of balancing.. they need to revert whatever it was that they initially borked up, but beyond that the Veteran content is fine. Instead of taking away from the player base that is actually enjoying it (however a minority you may view them to be) they should instead provide alternate ways to level. So folks that don't like that challenge don't feel forced to go through it to level.

steveb16_ESO46

Alphashado wrote: »

Sadly you will always have narrow minded tunnel visioned opinions, but hopefully maturity will prevail here.

Yep, throw insults around. Real mature. <golf clap>

aleister

Worstluck wrote: »

I am all for very challenging boss mechanics (most are not) and elites, quest bosses and what not to be able to one shot me or do serious damage to me if I make a mistake. I don't want some random bandit witch casting a spell that can one shot me if I make a mistake while doing an escort quest that gets me 150 gold and 3k vp and I know I am not the only who feels this way.

Veteran content just needs balancing that's all. There have been so many problems with the game, and ZOS has got to push out new content, so hopefully someday they can look at it.

Veteran content needs to be completely ripped out by the roots and something completely different needs to be introduced instead.

Alphashado

Just look at your guild rosters. Look at how many inactive accounts there are. Look at how long they have been inactive for. As I mentioned above, I see dozens of people getting booted from my trading guilds every other day because they have clearly left the game. Dozens. Every other day. We have booted hundreds of people within the last couple weeks because they are clearly gone.

It isn't a minority folks. it is a very silent sad, depressed, disappointed majority that is growing bigger and bigger every day.

I feel like I'm standing in a village at the foot of a volcano that is about to erupt and for every one person that sees the danger, there are 2 more that say "na man, we're good, it's nothin". Even when everyone can clearly see the lava rolling towards them if they would just look.

More and more casual gamers are just now coming into VR content and they are realizing that frustration isn't worth paying for.

Irgin

I am all for a challenge, but there is no way you will enjoy the game when it takes you over an hour to find enough people for a single dolmen (VR 8/9) - zones seem to be empty nowadays, and I mean, vast empty!

Back a few weeks you could go in any public dungeon and it was loaded and fun, now you stand at the entrance and there are maybe 2-3people every hour which pass by.

Where have all the players gone? I cant imagine they are all in Craglorn, regarding the posts how awful this zone is.

Alphashado

Irgin wrote: »

I am all for a challenge, but there is no way you will enjoy the game when it takes you over an hour to find enough people for a single dolmen (VR 8/9) - zones seem to be empty nowadays, and I mean, vast empty!

Back a few weeks you could go in any public dungeon and it was loaded and fun, now you stand at the entrance and there are maybe 2-3people every hour which pass by.

Where have all the players gone? I cant imagine they are all in Craglorn, regarding the posts how awful this zone is.

At the risk of derailing this thread, there are indeed a lot of people in craglorn right now because they are grinding xp before it gets nerfed tomorrow. But they will still be there even if the xp is comparable to VR questing because it's an alternative to the current VR system that a vast majority of players find tiresome and unrewarding.

Arundo

Winnower wrote: »

If Veteran is too hard for you, don't try to solo everything. Walk around or get help. That's what veteran is FOR.

Bit hard when there is noone around in the VR zones. I have just been doing a few quest in Greenshade. Died alot got frustrated and quit. If this keeps up I will probably stop playing.

I like the game but if the game becomes more of a annoying task then a game I can better do other things with my little free time I have.

PS

For those who says the VR zones are fine. You do know the first M in MMO is for massive. If the casuals leave because its too hard and no fun it will no longer be massive and die.

I like a challenge but not every single thing up to VR 12 should be painfully hard.

Lynnessa

Worstluck wrote: »

Then go play Monster Hunter or Dark Souls, no offense meant.

None taken. I'll take this as a "Yes, Lynn, it's weird that you are looking forward to the stupid hard VR mobs"

But Dark Souls is too depressing and gross for me. Ew.

Alphashado

Lynnessa wrote: »

Worstluck wrote: »

Then go play Monster Hunter or Dark Souls, no offense meant.

None taken. I'll take this as a "Yes, Lynn, it's weird that you are looking forward to the stupid hard VR mobs"

But Dark Souls is too depressing and gross for me. Ew.

It isn't weird. Many people agree with you. The problem is that for those that prefer to keep the intense one mistake and your dead stuff in dungeons, there is no other choice for them. In it's current state, Veteran Ranked ESO is a game for hardcore players only. And that is a terrible business model for a AAA MMO.