Dear ZOS - veteran levels are killing ESO. Please wake up to this.

SilverWF

LoPony wrote: »

I'am playing NB V10 right now, but since V6 or 7 I'm just using my hide ability to skip every mob that is not a dungeon boss or quest mob. I'm just running trough that 3rd faction content like a stupid-quest-zombie, because I cant enjoy it anymore!

Its just always the same! Every quest looks the same (story may be different but I refused to read or hear them): speak with someone, kill something, speak again, kill again, go to dungeon/house/whatever, kill the boss, speak again and get vp/exp and some useless green item!).

I'm bored, this game misses alternative content that distract me from the questing-train there is just nothing else to do then PvE questing, zerging events or zerging pvp ... oh well there are instances ... boring too!

Agree, fully agree, mate.

Gisgo wrote: »

Sounds good but you can get one million and a half xp/hour

Another group around and your VP gain will run to zero.

Selstad

I have no complain about the XP gain in veteran content, I find the pace rather good here.

As for builds, I've had to mix my builds several times to suite the situation. Though, some quests I've just had to abandoned due to balancing issues (mobs that hit for 1750 normal physical on light armour and are immune to CC and stuns so they naturally come up close).

I think that veteran content in all works fairly well. I don't like the MMOs were you end up standing in a major city and do squad nothing other than trolling in trade chat (*cough*WoW*cough*). So having some actual content to see while waiting for a content patch is in my opinion better than the alternative.

Reenlister

I have found myself feeling lackluster lately to. Mostly over the whole of the Vet situation. I am not in a hurry to level up, or get to V++, but my fun is not the same. While doing lvl 1-50 it was fun to be in my faction, feeling like I was involved in the whole of the issue, from dealing with Molag to the war behind the scenes.
Now I just cant understand the idea behind running off to help the other sides. It so shows a quick slap it in there to keep them busy. With having finished half the AD zone now, and no desire to run alt left at all, since I have been focused on my main, and why I should I run an alt through another faction where I know the quest?
No, it should have opened some new line, granted that would have been work, but to simply slap us in the other zones to fight against our faction? Really?
Now couple it with nothing to show for the advancements, I again am not out to just advance and hurry along, but as I have gone through the Vet ranks nothing like a return other than seeing the V level go up. As stated before, no new stat increase, no skill line.. it just leaves me feeling like why bother? The idea of getting to Craglorn is not some grand inducement to bring my thrill of the game back.
I don't plan on quitting, but I don't see me staying as long as I had really looked for, its just become a daily repeat of, fight super mob, win or die, hope to get soul gem to restock...

Strontium

Unfortunately this is what we have and they are not going to budge from it. It is their idea of panacea.

The very least we can ask is that they don't do like Tabula Rasa and *** up the balance but that has already passed. They *** it up and will not fix it until they bleed subs.

If they care about the game (which I'm highly doubting, at this point) they will stop catering to the non-vr crowd.

Don't' see it happening from recent events.

This game has potential but the server admin is run by idiots.

amonengelb16_ESO

Simply compress VR1 to VR12 to just one Veteranrank. Players who want to quest as Zenimax intends will quest and enjoy them. Simply give players enough options, as TES games did in previous games. Even DAoC and WoW had different leveling zones. Being forced to grind through a whole zone is not creative nor can I describe it as premium content.

Simply don't force players to "work" for their favorite kind of content - as AvA or Trials. Just let them do it until they reached VR and thats it. In the end we are just leveling, as in DAoC, WAR or WoW, until we have access to our favorite content. Why?

This far Veteranranks are not "premium content" as it was presented prelaunch. We already had this story in DAoC and WoW. Additional progressions which are not easy accessible will diminish the playerbase as in DAoC or WoW. This is a one-way road.

Drazticulous

I shall make a NPC for the devs that will cost 500k to level per VR so there is no grind or questing.... just make gold!

Strontium

They need someone with common sense which they don't seem to have...

bruceb14_ESO5

Gaudrath wrote: »

The best part is, if they called veteran content level 50-150 and placed Coldharbour at the end of it all, nobody would be complaining because it would all be part of the main story and, well, there is no grind if you get levels all the time. Right? Right?

If there were 150 levels many would not play, the end would be too far out to feel both attainable and fun. Some would enjoy it and find a way to the top, but the fan base would be self limiting.

VR levels seem small yet quite time consuming if doing quests, world bosses, dolmens, delves and public dungeons solo or tagging along with others doing same. A large group mowing them down is entirely different and probably just easy.

Gaudrath wrote: »

So there is no grind. The grind is in people's heads. It's like someone forcing themselves to read a good book as fast as they can so they can get to the end.

Is this a "good" book? I love the game...the book enticed me, I'm still reading, yet I am questioning the author's style as parts get quite boring. Not everyone wants to read or even pick up a 1200 page book, even if it is extremely well written and engaging.

Suggestions for revision:

1. Adjust the PVP scaling to recognize max level
2. Limit repeatable quests in Cyrodiil to dailies, but increase quest rewards for doing each.
3. Have Cyrodiil campaign quests make sense in the specific campaign.
4. Dramatically increase quest reward XP in PVE.
5. Provide more communication as a company addressing concerns. Admit the difficulties of having 1 mega server, trying to have a multitude of individual builds and keeping a game balance and so much more .
6. Send out Surveys to a random group of subscribers. I looked forward to the surveys after each Beta session and could see how responsive and customer oriented Zenimax seemed to be.

Sadly, my family and a good friend put down the 1200 page book shortly after opening it and wife is an avid reader. I'm still reading but do have a habit of falling asleep in a book that 'seems' long.

Gisgo

My suggestion is: keep adding new content, do not raise the level cap.

Pvers would be happy because thats what they want: new places to see, dungeons to clear, quests to quest, gear sets to collect. Being VR12 instead of VR15 doesnt bother them, does it?

Pvpers would be happy because they wouldnt feel forced to pve up to the new level cap.

You DEVs would be happy because you would have one less thing to focus on.

Strontium

Bing ^^

They are compensating for something... Wonder what?

Strontium

Talk to a brick wall or enjoy hearing yourself speak.

That's all this thread will do. They have their mind set on one thing and it's not going to change.

Hate to say it but f2p in 3 months...

Jonplummer99b14_ESO

Altissimus wrote: »

Your player base is declining. I know this, because all of my friends and all of my guilds are saying the same thing.

Xp gain is too slow. Incentives are too little. Only some specific class/builds are working in Vet play.

Xp gain is too slow: it takes hours of game play to move the bar. Quest rewards are too little. Mob kills are arduous, and reward little.

Incentives are too little: VR3 to VR4...so what. The mobs, however, gain loads more HP. We gain...............nothing. No skill point towards a decent vet-based unlock. No power boost. No significant unlock of higher-tier gear. Nothing. Where's the incentive to do the ggggggrrrrrrriiiiiiinnnnnnnnnddddddddddddddddddddddd? You're missing the basic MMO equation here: effort must be met with reward.

Only some specific classes: "play the way you want to play" doesn't work into Vet zones. You. Can. NOT. Solo. Vet. Play. on any build, unless you take 2-3 times as long and use potions etc. There are maybe 2-3 builds in the entire game that can solo effectively...pre 1.1.2 nerfs, anyway.

THIS is where your efforts should be focused. The "oh, we're working on bots and gold spammers" excuse is old, and you've demonstrated insufficient progress to justify this.

I can't make this message clear enough: if you don't address more of what the players are wanting, and soon, you won't have to worry about bots and spammers any more because they'll realise there's no players to sell to.

Unfortunately, I have to agree. I think the OP nailed it. I love the concept of the Vet levels and the ability to experience the other zones but I find myself getting bored.

Full disclosure; I am playing a sorcerer at VR2. While I can get through public dungeons and solo content, I basically have to do so with a couple cast bars; my individual target with healing staff bar and my AOE kill every thing in sight with Destro staff bar.. I swap between the two as needed but it is the same thing over and over... Groups of 5 mobs.. AOE bar... Single or double "bosses" ind target bar.. I have to go back to the same abilities over and over. I agree with the "play as you want to play" comment; the op is right; one effectively has to build in a couple options or just fail at the content.

The experience is slow and grinding.. I find myself going back to alts to find something interesting to do..

Now VR content does lend itself well to a couple people but pray you aren't both on different parts of a quest.....but I agree with the OP.. soloing just isn't fun. Debate this if you want but look at the market you are in. No solo play means losing players... Most of my guildies and I choose to solo a lot of PvE content and come together for dungeons or PvP or what amounts to "helping" someone get through a rough patch.

The story in this game is really compelling and I have really enjoyed the quests. PvP is the most fun I have had in a MMO in a long time but my guildies and I are doing it less often as the timeline is too long.. Consider making a campaign a month - people are losing interest.

Craiglorn looks interesting but I am thinking I need to be VR5 or so before attempting. That's going to be a long road.

At the beginning of MMOs, I was a hardcore gamer and raider spending hours raiding, camping MOBs, etc. etc. I'm older now with a job, family, and other things that take my attention away from the game. A long grind just isn't feasible anymore and I bet I am not alone in that.

methjester

I can't think of a single thing since release that Zeni has done since release that has been player friendly or you know, good for the game. It's been nothing but bug fixes.

There are about half a dozen things that people in this game absolutely hate, but it's falling on deaf ears. So far we are not embracing the challenge but progressing in spite of it.

Zaxq

Zarkaz wrote: »

I enjoyerd my leveling to v10 and later to v12, every single bit, it was fun and challenging sometimes, i think that last rpg game that gave me satisfaction for each killed opponent was DA:O.

Landscapes, npcs, quests, combat, evertyhing in ESO is so well made.

You people should forget about XP, think about journey in the middle of last V zone you will get v10. I only noticed that mobs dont give much xp around V9 when i installed addon, i just did everything on map, hate to leave something blacked out. Why would you care about xp per quest\mob gains when eventualy you guarantied to level cap.

"us people" include those of us that have already done the vet grind once. It was fun, and it was well made. And it took bloody ages. Which was fine.

Having to do it again is horrible. Literally soul-crushing and tedious.

(and Im levelling a different character since my old main is 80% broken and incredibly weak compared to the 2 strongest classes - and isn't really welcome in any dungeon groups).

Sakiri

My problem is less time invested and more lack of progress.

Im not immersed in the story. In fact, I quite dislike Glenumbra's story. The npcs come across as pompous entitled snots and its aggravating. But DC is my first half of vet content.

Quest rewards are meh.
No skill points on rank up.
Stat boosts are meh.

At least the more frequent leveling at 1-50 felt better. It could have taken the same amount of time... but leveling 16 times vs 1 for the entire first zone gives a feeling of progression.

Ive started parking my characters at vr1. I gather Ill end up quitting at some point, since my partner cant clear the main quest.

Sakiri

Sociabear wrote: »

AlexanderTheGreat wrote: »

Sociabear wrote: »

You don't like questing fine go RvR (amazing vr xp) and do all dolmens/solo/pub dungeons. I made it to vr10 barely questing (I did caldwells mainly). Do rvr quest hubs , always fun to do Bruma and kill on the side! With the increase of mob xp go pbaoe grind. I understand they messed up difficulty but that'll get fixed. What I'm showing is you have really quite a few options over questing..

If you're not having fun that's fine just leave , I don't say that to be mean but we don't need a typical toxic mmo community here that just whine after whine. I mean come on people asked for bash nerf (needed) now people whine about the nerf!
There are plenty of the last 10 year FTP games that you can level to in 4 hours and raid and have bgs. Go there if that's what you want, one game doesn't appeal to all and shouldn't.

1. PVP is not amazing vr xp unless you're on a good server with a very good group.

2. You did not make it to vr10 barely questing unless you exploited dungeons. ( I did all Caldwell quests/wb/dungeons/dolmens/pvp and I'm only V8)

3. Grinding in a group is possible if you can find a group.

4. You realize the more people that leave the more likely this game will go F2P? F2P games have the worst communities.

Honestly by your answers you need not play an mmo then (at least this one) I gave you viable options and you said no because you're too lazy to form a group or feel you should be able to solo it all. Yes you need a good group in RvR ( I play with 2 others always the tripod ftw) again make friends in game that's an mmo for you. You don't think I made it to VR10 not questing much you're just trying to argue to argue now, which is why I suggest just cancel for now then. If they turn it into easy mode leveling at some point (I hope never) come back and play. You want a solo able online fantasy game.. That's fine you began gaming on such. As long as you understand that is not an mmo. As for it going FTP I hedge a bet it never will, do I know for sure absolutely not, but I can tell you this again look at daoc and eq decades old with a sub still and active player base and they use in ESO a lot of the same things as old time games so there is a market for it maybe just for us folks a little older but we will pay for a hobby( not saying you can't won't ect just my age demographic this game targets very well sense we started with this sort of gameplay).

Uhm... EQ is free to play...

Has been for a while.

Sakiri

NaughtyDog wrote: »

@Guppet‌ Sorry if my post was vague, but you (and anyone else) are more then welcome to ask me anymore info. I thought my post was getting a bit too long so I did not want to write so much.

Anyway, I play 4-5hrs a day (Less on Fridays but Sundays balance it out as I play more). The winter semester is over for me so I have plenty of time to play after work. Especially since I am not planning on taking any spring/summer classes.

Anyway, I completely did all the quests with my Vr12 (took forever!). However, my Vr7 is a little test I am doing. Believe it or not you can reach lvl 50 (Vet1) from lvl 1 within 20 hrs. From there you can reach Vet 5 within 32hrs. I am still wondering how fast I can reach Vet 10 and then Vet12 with my alt. Like I said you LVL REALLY fast if you know what you are doing. For those of you who think I am using exploits.....no I am not. The key is to understand that you do not have to do EVERY quest and you also do not have to follow the traditional "complete this zone and hop into a next zone" mindset. Why not skip around zones?

Enlighten us, O Great One.

Sakiri

Bromburak wrote: »

Altissimus wrote: »

Leaving aside the fact that in ESO, there is no disadvantage if another player assists you in a fight - you still get the same loot and xp - making "leechers" and "adding players" (sic) a benefit and not detrimenta

It has nothing todo with disadvantages. (But to make this clear, the adding it self is leeching cause they get loot while others have done 90% of the work)
However this is not the point!

The point is NO ONE asking for assistance ... One reason why MMO players usually don't add to fights. You are might not familiar with this, but for most of us its an act of politeness in MMOs.

And if you say "when we feel disturbed by those adding players , we should play single player games" you totally missed the point!

This game has the expectation of others jumping in.

If we want to complain about MMO politeness protocol, where were people on that bandwagon when it came to the taboo of selling to guildmates?

Oh wait, those players support it because the game was designed that...

Prettiboi

Gisgo wrote: »

My suggestion is: keep adding new content, do not raise the level cap.

Pvers would be happy because thats what they want: new places to see, dungeons to clear, quests to quest, gear sets to collect. Being VR12 instead of VR15 doesnt bother them, does it?

Pvpers would be happy because they wouldnt feel forced to pve up to the new level cap.

You DEVs would be happy because you would have one less thing to focus on.

Without the level cap being raised, where the hell is the next competition? MMOs are ALL about competition for best gear, best stats, best look, highest level, etc. If everybody is at max level, that just makes everybody more similar, instead of differentiating those who work hard for their levels.

SilverWF

Prettiboi wrote: »

Without the level cap being raised, where the hell is the next competition? MMOs are ALL about competition for best gear, best stats, best look, highest level, etc. If everybody is at max level, that just makes everybody more similar, instead of differentiating those who work hard for their levels.

All completiton what we have is: try to find any exploit and use it 1st for maximum profit

Gisgo

Prettiboi wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

My suggestion is: keep adding new content, do not raise the level cap.

Pvers would be happy because thats what they want: new places to see, dungeons to clear, quests to quest, gear sets to collect. Being VR12 instead of VR15 doesnt bother them, does it?

Pvpers would be happy because they wouldnt feel forced to pve up to the new level cap.

You DEVs would be happy because you would have one less thing to focus on.

Without the level cap being raised, where the hell is the next competition? MMOs are ALL about competition for best gear, best stats, best look, highest level, etc. If everybody is at max level, that just makes everybody more similar, instead of differentiating those who work hard for their levels.

PvP boards, Trial boards, here is your "competition".

But you would be surprised if you knew the amount of people that plays at a non competitive level, by far the majority of subscribers.

Sakiri

EQ2 has had at least 3 expansions that dont raise the level cap.

Echoes of Faydwer left it at Kingdom of Sky's 70. Added new zones the whole way from 1-70 and new races/cities.

Sentinel's Fate and Destiny of Velious were both level 90. Age of Discovery was also level 90. SF added level 80-90 zones and raids. DoV addes 86-90 zones and several teirs of raid/dungeon. AoD added a new class, the Beastlord.

Skyshrine was a patch that raised level cap to 92. It went to 95 with the next expansion.

Whole expansion packs with no level cap increase? Blasphemy. And they added more aa points, skill lines.

Most MMOs dont raise the cap when they patch. New raid gives better gear. No level increase.

Tying item level tocharacter level feels *awful*.

Tankqull

Hodorius wrote: »

There is something I do not understand...

You want to hit max lvl faster and easier without "grinding".
There is only one other possibility: getting stuff for free (like in WoW).

Some of you are VR8 and still doing Cadwells questline... How is that possible?
You can finish Cadwells story faster then that if you leave everything else out.
So you people run around doing every unnecesary quest you find while feeling bad about it?!

Then you whine about Craglorn...
Today we did quests with 2 VR 2-5 guys and it worked... why dont you do the same?

well the problem is the kind of grinding.
craglorn especially Kalda offered a type of grind where the player was involved in actions.
the grind of the VR quests is accumulating km/miles while run around the map avoiding every mob possible because they are nothing but a time sink without reward and that is absolutly boring.

Enkil

CerberusCRW wrote: »

I've been avoiding the whole "Veteran Ranks: Good or not" topic for a while, as I figured everyone has different taste in what they enjoy, but it's become clear to me that this is becoming an issue which should be addressed. This isn't merely a matter of personal opinion. I've watched countless players reach veteran levels and vanish, never to be heard from again, and others abandoning their Veteran characters to play alts. I see them log into their 50+ only to run around lower level zones, getting achievements and such, or play for an hour or two and go right back to their alts. Obviously this isn't everyone, we do have some VR10-12s, but it does affect a good portion of the population and I feel like that is a problem.

As for my own personal experience with Veteran levels, I just got VR7 tonight and promptly switched to my alt. I can't go through more than 1 or 2 VR levels without taking a break to play alts. I get burned out after just a few quests, my enjoyment goes down the drain and even the carrot-on-a-stick that is Craglorn isn't enough to keep me motivated. Why? I'm not sure, but here's what I've come up with so far:

1. I love a good challenge. No, I REALLY love a good challenge. However, I don't enjoy a challenge just for the sake of it. Once the obstacle has been overcome, I like to feel rewarded, accomplished. Veteran Ranks offer quite the challenge yet no reward nor sense of accomplishment. It's just something you go through in-between the "regular leveling" and the actual end-game content. Veteran Ranks 1-10 are not end-game content, or at least they don't feel like it. It's just more leveling/questing once you're supposed to be done questing/leveling. Granted that the journey from 1-50 was a tad too quick, but I'd rather they make -that- last longer than have us do the exact same thing twice over.

2. There's no story progression. Once you're done with Coldharbour, that's it. That's technically the end of your journey. You get a fresh start in enemy territory with no acknowledgment of your past accomplishments. It's like leveling an alt in hard-mode. And when you're done with that, you level another alt. I'm sure the other faction's stories are quite interesting too but my character belongs to the Daggerfall Covenant, that's the folks I want to work for. It's even more disheartening when a quest has you fighting your own faction. I don't want to repel the "invaders", I want to join them and burn those cities to the ground!

When I started playing this game, I thought that by "visiting other faction's territories", they meant we'd get to explore them as members of our own selected faction. I thought the quests would be more like bounties, similar to what you'd find in Cyrodil (PvE bounties of course). I thought they'd have us invade enemy territories: Spy, infiltrate, assassinate. Or perhaps they could send us undercover to deal with other plane-threatening matters arising in these hostile territories. I feel like it's not too late to introduce a bounty mission system, an alternative to playing "pretend" games and going through the other faction's quests (again, PvE bounties, not suggesting they should add pvp outside Cyrodil). I'de LOVE such system. Am I the only one?

Well said... I agree wholeheartedly.

Loco_Mofo

Yeah this is one of my gripes also.

My playtime has cut down since I reached VR content. It's become a bit of a crawl and I attribute it to slow progression coupled with having to quest and assist the supposed enemy. Why am I back to doing menial tasks again, don't these guys know I just defeated a god? It just doesn't make sense and was obviously slapped together last minute.

psychoman88ub17_ESO

it's really not that hard... or time consuming...

Arsenic_Touch

I love vet levels. I just wish they would've kept the skill point gains and gave more purpose to the levels of skill trees (IE higher level, higher ability) instead of using it to just unlock other skills in that tree. I hope they keep the progression the same as they add more veteran ranks (which is a given) and don't trivialize old content like other mmorpgs do.

patrykplawskib16_ESO

Gaudrath wrote: »

Altissimus wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

They have already stated that the increase in VR difficulty was not intended and will likely be hot fixed within 24 hours.

This isn't about vet difficulty post-1.1.2. This is about the vet grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrind with no incentive or reason.

The incentive is what players wanted - ability to experience full content without rerolling. Originally, if you wanted to experience other alliances, you had to reroll a character.

People didn't like that. So they added veteran ranks.

Now people don't like veteran ranks.

It is true what they say about MMO development... damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Personally I'm one of those silly buggers who enjoy veteran content.

Ye but its not fun when u go into pvp at vr6 and there's army of vr12's stomping you and they cheated you did it legit and well that's why i hate vet levels no way to catch up or be equal.

Gisgo

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

Ye but its not fun when u go into pvp at vr6 and there's army of vr12's stomping you and they cheated you did it legit and well that's why i hate vet levels no way to catch up or be equal.

Now you got my curiosity on this cheating thing.
What happens when a VR6 stomps a lvl 30, is he cheating too?
At what level does the cheating start exactly?

Arsenic_Touch

Gisgo wrote: »

Now you got my curiosity on this cheating thing.
What happens when a VR6 stomps a lvl 30, is he cheating too?
At what level does the cheating start exactly?

It's only cheating when a higher level kills you. When you kill a lower level, that's clearly skill!