Dear ZOS - veteran levels are killing ESO. Please wake up to this.

Audigy

I don't think that the Vet system is the problem, because who honestly wants to stop progressing once you have max level?

Isnt this totally boring like at WoW and other Raid or Die games? Players are the same, no matter if 90 for a second or one year - its just no fun.

What ZO might could address is how players experience the Vet content. Right now not many people are at VR content, so the maps are a bit empty and players have trouble grouping. Maybe they could work on their instance system, to make sure that there are always enough players in one instance to make grouping possible.

In my opinion is the VR system top, its just boring to not develop your char further in an MMO past max level. But the system could be improved at some points no doubt.

Noobie

doesnt help at VR 1 you need 400k to level, VR 2 you need 900k so on and so on

twistedmonk

Veteran leveling now is an endless quest grind against mobs that aren't fun to fight.

there are only a couple of viable builds at veteran levels, all the stamina builds are crap so many people can't play the builds they want to play with and are forced to use the same cookie-cutter builds.

It's extremely discouraging to find that the build that you like is no longer viable once you reach VR level.

Look at GW2, they wanted people to enjoy the game and play it the way they wanted.

If you didnt' like PvE, you could level up PvP just fine.

If you liked to craft, you could level up with pure crafting.

if you liked PvE questing, there was that option as well..

this game...garbage. sorry but the game/combat designers all need fired. and I dont' say that lightly.

Melian

GougedEye wrote: »

Well maybe for a fraction of the userbase this is true. Others have friends, family, hobbies and you know, things to do. Just want to have fun and not looking to make a game their major life commitment. But each to their own.

Not sure who will be paying for your servers, and development teams when ESO is a small niche community though. But good luck with that.

Typical stereotype and untrue. I like the old-school feel of this game and I have friends and family (rather a big family, actually), and as for hobbies - this is a hobby.

AlexanderTheGreat

Sociabear wrote: »

You don't like questing fine go RvR (amazing vr xp) and do all dolmens/solo/pub dungeons. I made it to vr10 barely questing (I did caldwells mainly). Do rvr quest hubs , always fun to do Bruma and kill on the side! With the increase of mob xp go pbaoe grind. I understand they messed up difficulty but that'll get fixed. What I'm showing is you have really quite a few options over questing..

If you're not having fun that's fine just leave , I don't say that to be mean but we don't need a typical toxic mmo community here that just whine after whine. I mean come on people asked for bash nerf (needed) now people whine about the nerf!
There are plenty of the last 10 year FTP games that you can level to in 4 hours and raid and have bgs. Go there if that's what you want, one game doesn't appeal to all and shouldn't.

1. PVP is not amazing vr xp unless you're on a good server with a very good group.

2. You did not make it to vr10 barely questing unless you exploited dungeons. ( I did all Caldwell quests/wb/dungeons/dolmens/pvp and I'm only V8)

3. Grinding in a group is possible if you can find a group.

4. You realize the more people that leave the more likely this game will go F2P? F2P games have the worst communities.

Lord_Draevan

The only thing I hate about Veteran content is that you HAVE to play through the other alliance's zones, or else it will take forever to level up your Vet Rank. Helping the AD and DC when I've spent my time in the EP zones murdering them and foiling their plans makes no sense to me.
It also destroys what little sense of identity each alliance had after the "play as any race is any alliance" decision ZOS made.
As to difficulty, the current problem will be patched and returned to pre-Craglorn difficulty. Though I did find Vet zones challenging, even as a heavy armor, two-handed DK chugging health potions I had trouble when fighting bosses or mobs of more than 3.

Madirishman76

Not sure why people complaining about builds I have 15-20 friends playing VR8 and above and they all use their own custom builds and haven't had any issues IMO their are tons of viable endgame builds but if you add almost all your points to DPS and very few to CC or health/defense you are gonna be squishy. Thats the price you pay for being a stud on the damage parser lol.

bg22

My only gripe is... Wasn't VR10 enough? Why are you already adding more Veteran Ranks ZOS? I don't want more levels... I want more ways to improve my VR10 character. I'm sick of leveling. I want end game. Not increasing the cap and prolonging actual end-game.

jimthema

At VR1 sorc, realizing from VR1-5, and 5-10, I could level 2 other toons to 50, I opted for that route. Then I'll have 3x 50's to choose from when the nerf hammer starts falling. Fall it shall, as they knee jerk every vocal minority whine.

Apricot

ZurinArctus wrote: »

Being able to hit VR10 in less than 14d played time doesn't seem like too slow.

I don't know how many quests I had left when I hit VR10. Plenty of content to go around. This is a quest oriented game. If you don't like to quest, you will be at a disadvantage. Sure you can grind, but you will still miss out on phased areas and skill credit rewards for the larger chains.

How slow is too slow on exp gain?

Depends. In some cases 14 days would seem about right. In other cases that would seem really quick. In this case the boredom makes it seem more like 14 years.

I quit after V2. That's 2 years of my life I'll never get back.

Gaudrath

Altissimus wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

They have already stated that the increase in VR difficulty was not intended and will likely be hot fixed within 24 hours.

This isn't about vet difficulty post-1.1.2. This is about the vet grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrind with no incentive or reason.

The incentive is what players wanted - ability to experience full content without rerolling. Originally, if you wanted to experience other alliances, you had to reroll a character.

People didn't like that. So they added veteran ranks.

Now people don't like veteran ranks.

It is true what they say about MMO development... damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Personally I'm one of those silly buggers who enjoy veteran content.

skarvika

+1
In SWTOR, I felt inclined to hit level cap and I remember feeling so proud when I did. In ESO it's more like "another level down, a few more grinds to go until I can stop" and the only incentive to get to vet rank is so that you'll suck just a teensy bit less in pvp, and there's no reason to level past v1.
Your rewards for going through the inane process of veteran leveling is 3 costumes that offer no bonuses. They're purely cosmetic. Great.
No gold, no special mount or gear, no new skill lines, nothing.
If you planned on rolling an alt for a different faction, scrap those plans now because when you hit vet rank, you'll have to do all the regular quests in other levels. Do you really want to go over all the same content again with your alts? Probably not.
So the vet ranks are useless and make rolling an alt pointless. Way to go.

NaughtyDog

I enjoy having more Veteran Levels. For hardcore players like myself, my character was max out and had the best of the best gear. So I made a new char to play on while I waited for the new contents. I was thrilled to find out that Vet levels increased, craglorn released, and more gear are dropping. Now I can play on my main again until it is max out again, switch back to my alt (which is vr7) and wait. As of right now my main character is Vr12 (Veteran Lvls are EASY if you know what you are doing), now I plan on running trials and looting gears until I am max again, play on my alt and wait once I finish all that.

That aside, I SOLO most of the vet content besides the private group dungeon (i.e Fungal Grotto, Vault of Madness, etc). I know how to utilize my builds and execute them accurately since Soloing requires great effort esp if you are fighting a storm atronach by yourself.

Veteran lvls are not killing the game. It is just annoying some of the players who casually play and/or came from another mmo's culture and expects ESO to be the same. Most of the happy players do not have the need to log on forums and rant/vent as they are too busy enjoying the game.

However, I understand many do not like this veteran lvling system that keeps on increasing. If you want a game that has a capped lvl, there are plenty of other games. ZOS is veering away from other mmo styles and I respect them for it.

So in short:
XP is not low, it is fine. It is actually really fast imo if you know what you are doing. Also, although VR lvls do not give much reward, the EXP they give to lvling your skills is great. You are encourage to swapped skills and lvl their morph form up. This way you can try out builds in different situations.

In Vet zones, you are expected to understand your characters' strength and weaknesses base on your build. As the lvl of vet zone increase, they challenge your understanding and forces you to create a more efficient build. Please do not use the "play the way you want to" as an excuse, if that's the case then the way I want to play is "booty arse naked" and run around one hit punching all the mobs in craglorn with my vet 1 char.

Sociabear

AlexanderTheGreat wrote: »

Sociabear wrote: »

You don't like questing fine go RvR (amazing vr xp) and do all dolmens/solo/pub dungeons. I made it to vr10 barely questing (I did caldwells mainly). Do rvr quest hubs , always fun to do Bruma and kill on the side! With the increase of mob xp go pbaoe grind. I understand they messed up difficulty but that'll get fixed. What I'm showing is you have really quite a few options over questing..

If you're not having fun that's fine just leave , I don't say that to be mean but we don't need a typical toxic mmo community here that just whine after whine. I mean come on people asked for bash nerf (needed) now people whine about the nerf!
There are plenty of the last 10 year FTP games that you can level to in 4 hours and raid and have bgs. Go there if that's what you want, one game doesn't appeal to all and shouldn't.

1. PVP is not amazing vr xp unless you're on a good server with a very good group.

2. You did not make it to vr10 barely questing unless you exploited dungeons. ( I did all Caldwell quests/wb/dungeons/dolmens/pvp and I'm only V8)

3. Grinding in a group is possible if you can find a group.

4. You realize the more people that leave the more likely this game will go F2P? F2P games have the worst communities.

Honestly by your answers you need not play an mmo then (at least this one) I gave you viable options and you said no because you're too lazy to form a group or feel you should be able to solo it all. Yes you need a good group in RvR ( I play with 2 others always the tripod ftw) again make friends in game that's an mmo for you. You don't think I made it to VR10 not questing much you're just trying to argue to argue now, which is why I suggest just cancel for now then. If they turn it into easy mode leveling at some point (I hope never) come back and play. You want a solo able online fantasy game.. That's fine you began gaming on such. As long as you understand that is not an mmo. As for it going FTP I hedge a bet it never will, do I know for sure absolutely not, but I can tell you this again look at daoc and eq decades old with a sub still and active player base and they use in ESO a lot of the same things as old time games so there is a market for it maybe just for us folks a little older but we will pay for a hobby( not saying you can't won't ect just my age demographic this game targets very well sense we started with this sort of gameplay).

Palindrome

i was having a blast with vet zones up until the patch.
mob grinding was much slower than the 1-49 grind but that is expected and almost welcome. the fights were challenging and fun but not impossible.
I have been playing a templar S&B / Resto. was great had a nice set up for healing when in a party and decent mob grinding for quests or solo dungeon farming in down time.
since the patch however my templar feels completely nerfed i now have to remove one of my primary aoe dps skills from my bar (jabs) due to it now apparently having a CD added after the channel time.... --why the heck would you add a CD after a 1.5sec channel-- now i have to go and respec my character and find a completely new build for my solo play

so as far as playing the way you want... i think thats out the window

looks like i get to join the masses either playing with a destro staff in pve or not ever playing solo

AlexanderTheGreat

Sociabear wrote: »

Honestly by your answers you need not play an mmo then (at least this one) I gave you viable options and you said no because you're too lazy to form a group or feel you should be able to solo it all. Yes you need a good group in RvR ( I play with 2 others always the tripod ftw) again make friends in game that's an mmo for you. You don't think I made it to VR10 not questing much you're just trying to argue to argue now, which is why I suggest just cancel for now then. If they turn it into easy mode leveling at some point (I hope never) come back and play. You want a solo able online fantasy game.. That's fine you began gaming on such. As long as you understand that is not an mmo. As for it going FTP I hedge a bet it never will, do I know for sure absolutely not, but I can tell you this again look at daoc and eq decades old with a sub still and active player base and they use in ESO a lot of the same things as old time games so there is a market for it maybe just for us folks a little older but we will pay for a hobby( not saying you can't won't ect just my age demographic this game targets very well sense we started with this sort of gameplay).

I'm not too lazy to form a group, it's nigh impossible to find people doing the same things you are, especially during the hours I play.

I know you didn't do it just by Caldwell's quests as you said because I myself did all of Caldwell's content and am V

I have already cancelled. I don't need easy mode leveling, my leveling to V8 proves that, but when they've got bugs making all solo play nigh impossible, work outweighs reward.

I'm not asking for a solo only experience as you incorrectly assume. I played Vindictus for years which is leagues beyond this game as far as grouping gameplay goes and nigh exclusively group based. If there was a good grouping system, I would be happy to group up, but there's just not enough players in the v8-10 areas and the LFG tool is ***.

Also, if you want a grindcore I can probably point you to a bunch of korean ones that would kick your rear. Personally, I like original content with interesting plotlines, characters, and locations with a varied amount of objectives and minigames. ESO is pick up quest, listen to generic dialogue you've heard in other factions, go to location, press E, kill mobs, kill boss, return to NPC, receive reward, rinse and repeat.

xwadirtydiggler

I got to vet 4 and unsubbed. Vet content killed the game for me. I'm now playing nosgoth which is a shooter type game and it seems about as mmo as ESO.

Lilth

Sociabear wrote: »

I am glad it takes time. No one remember trying to level in EQ or Daoc ..
MMO's are a time sink , I'm glad a game has brought that back finally. Group up with friends , grind and just relax and have fun. If you don't have any gaming bros, form a group do the same thing. How do you think old school mmos had such a tight community? Because they spent hours playing together chatting about whatever just relaxing and having fun. I've been playing with the same guys for going on 8 years...

So in summary..this is what a true mmo used to be. Time do consuming, fun and about making friends online to play with. If you don't like it, mmos are not for you. Mmos over the last decade have not been a true representation of what an Mmo really was years ago and should remain. A niche community of "nerds"

I agree with most of what you posted however, the rewards in this game are very lackluster and not worth the massive amount of time it takes to level through the content (mainly vet ranks is what I am speaking of here). I posted a very lame Poll about adding rare armor sets (not found in Motiff's) to the game. I'm talking Ebony, Glass, Nightingale, etc...Make people excited to complete hard content , run dungeons, etc...knowing they have a chance to get rare cool items.

I don't mind difficult encounters. I welcome them.

/cheers

torplin

The grind is simply immense, it takes upwards of 300+ hours to reach VR10, and I was disheartened to see that so early into release, its been upped to VR12. While there is no gear grind (for the most part) there is certainly a level grind. These zones are massive and simply take too long to complete, keeping up with the VR ranks honestly feels like work, like "oh time to log in for my shift and make 50% more progress to my next VR rank".

What people don't realize is that this immense level grind makes it impossible to level up an alt. Oh you just reached VR8 on your templar or NB and realize the class sucks? Have fun re-rolling to a DK or Sorc and putting in another 300+ hours to get that far.

I don't have enough fingers to count all my friends who have un-subbed because of this, re-rolling isnt an option and with the introduction of more levels (comes more grind). Sadly, I doubt this is the ceiling. Grinding for gear was the way of old MMORPGs, but this game (I believe) has replaced that with grinding for levels. Think VR12 is the max now? Think again. It'll probably be 14 by July, 16 by September, and 20 by years end. Whats worse is that this will further discourage players from being able to reroll characters. My guildmates are figuring this out, and opting out of the grind early on, by simply quitting.

alexj4596b14_ESO

I really don't think people realize craghorn was supposed too be apart of the but was not done I time for launch! Just saying

Realzyanya

At 44 years of age, I just get disgusted with the instant gratification need. Fix it now or I quit! Fine, go ahead! There are some valid points. If you don't object to subpar performance, you add to the problem. Perfectly valid. I don't mind people saying that X issue is ****** up. But whining and crying and threatening to cancel...jeez, take your instant gratification elsewhere! I agree with a lot of the old schoolers - don't take my challenge out because you want to be V50 in 3 months! Difficulty makes you learn your character. It makes you learn when to group. The rewards aren't so tangible except a sense of accomplishment - wow, we finally killed that boss!We kick ***! Give me that any day!

Plane of Hate anyone?

Kronosphere

im only vr2 but leveling vet points really is not hard. i got 50% easily yesterday from vr20% to vr2 50% a zone doesnt take that long to do and its a zone per vr rank. maybe it changes at higher v ranks but i dont see a huge problem. variety would be nice however i agree

Chirru

As of 9PM EDT on 5/23, we have completed a hotfix on both megaservers that reverted the difficulty of Veteran Rank content (50+ and 50++) to what it was prior to patch 1.1.2. Thank you for your patience as we fixed the issue.

hamon

Dralzen wrote: »

talking about EQ. they would have not survived the Hell levels. every 5th and 10th level required a ton more xp to level. i guess you are all used to having levels given to you on a silver plater. how do you survive in real life where you have to do hard work for little gain or none at all.

in real life we survive work due to getting a pay packet.. perhaps you should try that. maybe then you would feel your time has more value when your not at work.

zos dont pay me, i pay them.. i'm not in the habit of paying people to let me do things that feel like work.

spinedoc

+10000, also adding to VR content sucking is that it's RECYCLED content, so if you have an alt you have to do it again. This is terrible, why bother to have alts?

kaosodin

I feel like a mmo should take about a year to max level.

xwadirtydiggler

kaosodin wrote: »

I feel like a mmo should take about a year to max level.

Ask darkfall how successful that model is? Cuz its proven to be only valid for a niche market.

Altissimus

Realzyanya wrote: »

At 44 years of age, I just get disgusted with the instant gratification need. Fix it now or I quit! Fine, go ahead! There are some valid points. If you don't object to subpar performance, you add to the problem. Perfectly valid. I don't mind people saying that X issue is ****** up. But whining and crying and threatening to cancel...jeez, take your instant gratification elsewhere! I agree with a lot of the old schoolers - don't take my challenge out because you want to be V50 in 3 months! Difficulty makes you learn your character. It makes you learn when to group. The rewards aren't so tangible except a sense of accomplishment - wow, we finally killed that boss!We kick ***! Give me that any day!

Plane of Hate anyone?

News flash: the majority of the player base is not 15 years old.

I'm 36. The average age of my 60-strong guild is about 33. Many are older than you. No one is talking about instant gratification in this thread (except you). People are simply making valid points about their perception of VR content. Experienced players have found that only a minority of builds function at VR levels, despite the day-one positioning of "play the way you want" game design.

This is not about difficulty. It's about effort:reward. If the reward was there, it wouldn't matter how difficult it was (for most players - yes, some would whine). However the reward isn't there; it exists only as a completely subjective "experience the game content". The players have spoken: this is not reward enough for most. So it feels like work, not entertainment, and that is why people are quitting.

That is the truth. Your response misses the majority of that. I suggest you read the thread and pay attention, instead of just assuming everyone is the instant gratification console generation.

gurluasb16_ESO

I'm basically stuck. I'm a Vet rank 2 Bow Templar, and almost anything decimates me.

I only have 891 gold, so respeccing is not an option.
And with the Cyrodiil nerf, Cyrodiil questing is also no longer an option.

Please fix Vet levels!
I don't mind if I have to quest but I actually want to enjoy myself and not die over and over again if I attack more than 1 mob.

Enkil

spinedoc wrote: »

+10000, also adding to VR content sucking is that it's RECYCLED content, so if you have an alt you have to do it again. This is terrible, why bother to have alts?

This is my problem as well. I hit VR1 then started playing an alt to experience the other alliance. The ridiculous way they justify you going to other alliances feels very contrived and is at odds with the main premise of the multiplayer/pvp part of the game.

I would like to be able to visit those zones and kill the players there.. Not complete their quest (sometimes killing my own people). The VR level versions could be open world pvp and have new VR level quests for you to complete in your own zones with the added danger of invading players being able to attack you.

There could be invasion quests where players board ships and assault an enemy VR zone. And players wanting other alliance skyshards should have to travel to those other zones and feel endangered to obtain sky shards there.

Cyrodil seems like it would be where the bulk of the action is post level 50 and PVP should give significantly more VP/XP than mobs/quests.

Creating the VR levels so that it requires everyone to grind through all the alliance quests when it is at odds with the pvp/multiplayer premise of the games makes no sense. As an option for those that don't like playing alts (likely a minority) is great, but can we get some practical, fun, and robust alternatives please...