Here are my two cents about this topic.

PvE doesn’t need Vengeance mode in order to improve performance, because ZoS already has all the tools to improve performance if they deemed it a widespread problem.
Why is PvE different to PvP in this regard? In PvE you are fighting against a fixed number of enemies. If you go to a trial, there is always going to be max 12 players and the same NPCs waiting for you there, which means that there is a hard cap on the maximum number of calculations the servers must do. They can design each encounter around the limits of the servers, unlike in PvP where the encounter size changes all the time. If performance was a problem in PvE, they could simply reduce the number of entities in an instance or simplify the enemy mechanics to reduce the number of calculations.
Azureblight was seemingly a problem, which allowed for groups to surpass the expected calculations limit, which is why it was changed to a version which produces way less stress on the servers.

Why is overland such a mess at times then? Overland can have more players in the same are compared to trials. The instance caps are not designed around everyone actively fighting against the same enemies in a small area, which causes problems during events and such. Is this a problem? Yes, but again, ZoS could fix it already with the tools they have available without reworking the entire combat structure. Why they haven’t already done it is a mystery to all of us.

So why didn’t they apply the same method for PvP? Well, they did, which is exactly why Vengeance is what it is right now. A PvP environment which supports 900 players at a time has to be dumbed down significantly and that's what they did. How would a non dumbed down version look like? It seems that we are about to find out, because they are working on a mode which instead of dumbing down players kits is going to reduce the maximum amount of players.

Source, ZOS_JessicaFolsom: “For players who wish to enjoy a PvP experience that is more like Grey Host, we are in the early stages of working on a mid-size PvP space. It will be smaller than Cyrodiil but larger than our largest Battlegrounds, and offer enough room for 3-sided keep warfare and an overall similar experience to Cyrodiil. The goal with that will be to allow players to have their full suite of abilities, unique builds, equipment, etc. just like in Gray Host.”
Link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685603/community-update-vengeance-testing-cyrodiil/p1

Source confirming that vengeance is about limiting server calculations.
ZOS_Kevin: “The Vengeance Test Campaign is focused directly on reducing ability complexity in an effort to cut down on server stress when mass battles occur. Anything you see that's enabled or disabled during this test is purely for the sake of performance and getting calculations as low as possible on the server.”
Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/679844/vengeance-test-faq-pc-june-30-through-july-8-console-june-30-through-july-9

Does this mean that PvE can’t be laggy at times? Nope, your connection and stability issues are just as valid, but ZoS already has all the tools necessary to fix the problem if they so choose.
It's also completely valid if you think that the better approach would have been to upgrade the server infrastructure, or move to a move efficient game engine etc, instead of the vengeance/new game mode approach.

ceruulean wrote: »

Idk bruh, I've popped 2 players in 5-7 seconds in vengeance, on a plar mind you. So idk how these low skill players are surviving because they die pretty quickly. Of course they survive in a group, that's what weaker players do because it's natural instinct. Of course if a sorc streak away, or a NB cloaks away, or a plar focuses on pure heals then I won't be able to kill them, but it was the same in u44 pvp. Maybe u47 subclassing pvp you can one shot people in duels with enough burst and proc stacking but I haven't really dueled people since most of the time it's warden charm spammers and I'm tired of spending 10 minutes getting nowhere.

Basically, for the most part Vengeance is pretty much tuned very finely that every build choice has impact on your effectiveness, down to the number of defensive and offensive skills you slot. And you can't really play a heal bot in a zerg that well. If ZoS uncaps the AoE damage, then healing will also need higher caps because so far, people do more damage than my 2 heals can outheal. I need to play smart to survive and not run out of resources. I am very happy with vengeance as it is. Sure, balance can be tweaked but it's way better than live pvp.

Look, I've been somewhat of a Vengeance supporter, but there's no way you can argue that it's ok as is. React is right, in fact I saw him myself in Vengeance and I specifically remember a scenario where 3 newish players were just sitting there outhealing both of us. I popped a soul tether and stunned them (they weren't blocking) into React's destro ult and I'm pretty sure they still needed to be spammed after that. That sort of thing is completely unacceptable.

Live PvP has a different and larger set of issues, but at least you can build enough damage to kill most people there. In Vengeance literally every single person feels like one of those tanky healers on live. Vengeance can be turned into a good PvP environment with fewer and easier changes than live Cyrodiil would need. However, as is, Vengeance's balance is indefensible and unplayable even for someone like me who was willing to give it a shot.

ZOS stated somewhere it would be January. I'll try to dig the link out when I remember where. It was in one of the bug forum posts.

Edit: Found it - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8393330/#Comment_8393330

We are getting Vengeance 4 next week starting on Dec 3, and all Campaigns need a maintenance beforehand to spin them up and down correctly, so they may just be putting the incremental together with that maintenance we'd expect between the 1st and 3rd.

I'm currently playing through eastern Solstice and I am struggling due to the writing decisions this team has made. At one point you actually have our character make the comment "How did the assault go? I was busy rescuing prisoners and stuff."

Am I the only one that really hates this? I don't find it clever or funny. It's just immersion breaking. Why can't any of the dialogue be written like it's not an episode of a sitcom?

I believe a fair number of MMOs have multiclassing but these were features that were planned out at the beginning and carefully balanced before going into the live game.

How not to do it is to make it a patch update, throw it on the community despite many experienced players voicing caution and then refuse to do any real follow up to make it work properly when it destroyed what was left of game balance.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I think that this is an overblown reaction that lacks a lot of nuance. The Vengeance environment is far closer to a balanced and fun PvP experience than live Cyrodiil is.

Vengeance is closer to 2016 Cyro than it is to 2025 Cyro. The same 2016 Cyro the old PvP veterans who left the game long ago and pine for, but who say Vengeance is trash.

Of course, the reality of Cyro's history is very different: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/658524/the-glory-days-of-cyrodiil

No, it's not. Vengeance is similar to live cyrodiil in the respect that the modes are played on the same map. That's where the similarities begin and end.

Vengeance is a total cop out on the part of ZOS.

They originally sold vengeance as a test to learn how to improve live cyrodiil. Now they're saying vengeance is the only mode they'll be working on going forward. So ya, they lied about vengeance being just a test from the very beginning.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I haven’t seen the post that this thread is referring to yet, but I am concerned about another Vengeance test because the last one had so few players and yet the performance was horrendous, worse than Gray Host.

Have they figured out why the last test was worse or are they just marching on with more additions to break it further?

Top of General.
They are considering one of two options.

Option 1: Vengeance and Grayhost, no other campaigns.

Option 2: Vengeance and no other campaigns.

Despite “wanting” Option 1, they have announced that they have given up on trying to fix Grayhost. That it is an impossible task, and are encouraging people to just play the permanent Vengeance campaign, confirming to everyone… that it was not just a test.

Theignson wrote: »

Many of the people complaining bitterly about Vengeance run in ball or small man groups, and they found out that in Vengeance they died just like pugs. Without Crutch of Agony and Vapid death, plus 10 ultis etc etc in subclassed builds, they couldn't instantly round up a bunch of people and kill them, then do it again 8 seconds later for hours on end.
Without 25,000 hp heals per second, 12,000 shield per second, they found out they had no advantage as a group and any 12 pugs could kill them.

The fact is that Cyrodil has died a slow death largely due to the enormously over powered groups. ZOS has lost sight of game balance.

The math is something like this: a pug group generally has only a small bonus as a group, so 12 people = approximately a strength of n=12.This is an additive increase per player.
However, with the above changes to the game, ball groups power goes at least multiplicative and, arguably, exponentially.

So now 2 players in a group can have a strength of 2(2) = 4. A six man can have 6(2) = a power of 36, This is why you see well structured 6 man groups running around with dozens of players seemingly helpless. Of course with a 12 man 12(2) = 144, they are virtually immortal. With heals of shields they have something like 37,000 hp heals per second for the whole group.

Now an exponential claim may be overstating the group advantage as you scale up. It may only be multiplicative, eg (players) (x) where X is probably 4-5. So in the scenario some 12 man groups are as strong as 50-60 pugs.

I am all for build variety and subclassing. But group strength should not be multiplicative or exponential. It should be additive, ie a group, due to coordinated movement and strategy, as an advantage over a similar number of pugs. So a well run ball group should have 12+n, eg advantage,
This is actually the case in Vengeance and some of the old school groups with skill had a noticeable , but not hugely overpowered advantage.
Also skilled players like @React ran up 110 kills and zero deaths based on skill. They didnt like it because the skill cap was low, and a competent player could defend against them, but skill actually did play some role. If you add back subclassing and sets that boost the individual (not group in pvp) the skill cap could rise.

I am so sick , especially in lower pop later at night, of ball groups running around using Proc of agony every 8 seconds for hours at time. Every single group does this, (now even worse with broken Warden charm-- which they all use, of course). This is dead, broken, stale, boring game play that has now been the meta for at least 2 years, an eternity. Something needs to change.

Interesting. Maybe ZOS should look at adding body-blocking in PvP so players can’t stack and move as a single blob so easily. On top of that, reducing the radius of AoE heals/buffs in PvP (say 5m instead of 8m/12m). Wouldn’t that make the “ball group” playstyle less dominant — since right now it feels more like a pathology than healthy PvP?