The problem with subclassing, for me, is that they nerfed my pure class characters to ”balance” the subclass builds.

So while you have fun with cookie cutting I have stopped playing battlegrounds, cyrodiil and dungeons.

Good balance, in my eyes, would be both of us would keep having fun.

LuC1ll3atTh3Wh33L wrote: »

for a while now i've been reading threads about class balance and how sub-classing ruined both balance and lore.
the balance part i cannot address from any technical standpoint, i'm not a smart monkey, but i love being able to pull from other skill lines. i don't care if my build is cookie-cutter. i'm having fun with it. i also experiment with abilities to see what flows for me best. i was able to find a gear set that's been working for almost a year now. i suspect that will change in the next. i don't feel off-balanced when i play. only thing i don't do are trials and pvp. why is balance important to you? more importantly, what is balance to you? is the balance issue just a pvp issue or is it also pve?
regarding lore... i cannot find any documentation that mentions restrictions to class. i found some fan lore but that's not official lore.
i'm not trying to stir the pot. i just don't get it. why all the noise?
short answer please.
respectfully, luci

When classes and sets are well balanced, there are multiple viable builds and play styles. But rn, most people just beam through everything, removing not only any semblance of challenge, but also the diversity of builds. PvE wise I find it dull and boring. Ofc, you can play your own build given you don’t play the hardest content. PvP wise the issue is similar - you cannot nowadays beat a player in a meta build with off-meta, even if both of you have exactly the same skill. You can only delete a total noob wearing meta, but lacking the understanding of how to use it.
Balance therefore is a situation where multiple approaches are similarly efficient - for example, pure class vs subclass, or more combinations of skill lines in subclassing.

@wolfie1.0. I could not agree with this more:

Class lines have always been horribly set up. even from the start. They always have you choose your class from game start, which honestly is the WORST time to make such a choice. Locking in your characters core skills before you even learn how the game plays or feels without the option of going back unless you start a new character has always been a wastefull thing to do.

I suppose the workaround is the amount of characters you can build and the fairly easy route to leveling them up. But you are correct. I came into this game believing my DK would be a beast (Morrowind). It was not a PVE DD beast, but a great tank and strong PVP DD. Eventually the world turned and the DK became a beast. In the meantime, I enjoyed learning how to play as a NB and Templar. But this was all back when classes, armor, and mag vs stam were real considerations.

I fear that eliminating classes would turn the game into ESO Skyrim, which is not what I want. Which, in looking at the direction of subclassing and reworking classes, appears to be the direction the devs are heading.

I'm not saying strict classes will solve everything, but it was nice to need a variation of builds to run a raid. You could never just stack 8 Templars, Sorcs, or NBs out there as DDs and clear everything. Fast forward to the Arcanist, and you'd be hard pressed to find a raid without 8 Arcanist DDs. Today, its just all a variation of CLASS + ASSASINATION + HERALD wearing Null Acra.

The most "diverse" DD I have is a stamsorc base that uses that setup with the big variation being Hurricane and Flail instead of Jabs. Ooh, so outrageous. Its got to the point that in most DD raid builds, there are really only 2-3 skills that aren't universal. That's closer to Skyrim than ESO

StihlReign wrote: »

Small comped groups and experienced tanks don't typically sit directly on Rams in GH. They climb onto the ledge and siege from there. They'll let you burn 3 Rams, by then the door is either open or a few hits with a couple of Ballistas and it's done.

If they're not doing it this way, the group is typically inexperienced, immune to damage or doesn't really care if they get in. We asked the devs to address the ledge, similar to the bridge damage immunity... ~crickets

You can still be hit with siege from the ledge, this is a moot point. The vast majority of keeps have no spot where you can sit and not be hit by oils while ramming the door.

Been playing in GH for a couple of nights now. What a bore-fest that has become. Why? Ball groups all over the place, with no effecitve counters really. They're just running around, farming, almost all evening.

On top of that; OP sets and immortal players.

That may be fun for some. For me, not so.

I'd like to have a choice to have Vengeance as well. I realise we all like different things and styles of play, of course. So therefor a choice would be fine.

SilverBride wrote: »

Disagreeing with Steam data being an accurate representation of the population is not having our heads in the sand. It's a minority that use Steam and that does not necessarily translate to the population in general.

It doesn't matter if you disagree on this because even investors use steam data to validate before investing.

Do you wanna explain to those investors that they are all wrong?

Even if you decide for yourself to not belive in this... It's the truth.

I find that it depends on where I am. In places like Leyawiin, Vivec City, and other major cities in older zones, there seems to be just as many people.

Solstice, on the other hand, is a dead zone. I've been doing Eastern Solstice stuff since the wall dropped, and sometimes I don't even see another player. Contrast this to earlier content drops, when there would be a lot of players clustered around quest givers, and in quest hubs and instances, to the point that sometimes it would be annoying because half the story instance had been cleared already when I entered. Not anymore.

My overall sense is that there has been a population decline. I'm really curious to see what they announce for 2026, because I believe it will be a make or break it year. Will ESO revitalize, or will it just hobble along for a few more years until MS kills it?

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

why you always choose to speak so confidently om something you know nothing about is beyond me

Who is this mythical 4 man group pushing top tier 12 mans off siege? You?

Hey, if someone from Adrestia or whoever wants to admit that their top tier 12 man gets pushed off a ram by 4 guys, I guess I could admit I lost a forum argument.

I'm 100% sure @YandereGirlfriend would agree and say the exact same thing I have said and he has played against Adrestia plenty of times. There is no "mythical" 4 man group. Oils are extremely overpowered. 3 people rotating oils with 1 other person shooting scatter, meatbag, or a lancer just like was stated prior would push them off.

If so much as 1 other person decided to come in with a negate bomb while under this oil pressure they could very easily kill members and make them completely give up on the keep. I would be happy to provide a screenshot of a DM between the lead of Adrestia if you want me to ask them the question, but I feel you will just move the goalpost afterward.

BloodRedHurricane wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Optionally, that’d be great. Not everyone would want it that way, though, as they might consider their characters to actually be multiple classes.

That said, it would be awesome if it wasn’t just a cosmetic change but also damage types. Lightning DK whip if you’re a sorc, frost fatecarver if you’re a warden, etc. Wouldn’t be great for elementalists but that’s one build that I’m not sure is even that viable currently?

Would this save the subclassing system lore-wise?

Lore wise, it doesn't make sense for people to be stuck in one class, imo

KapiteinBoterham wrote: »

This is absolutely hilarious! Screw the 1%

The members of those guilds who worked hard to keep things running are not some theoretical "1%" who exploit the masses.

Maybe wait till you have a damn clue before wishing pain on others.