xR3ACTORx wrote: »

Horace-Wimp wrote: »

Not everyone plays ESO through Steam.

🥱🥱🥱

Not everyone plays on epic or eso launcher. Steam is the only one who provided player counts so steam data is absolutly valid and I'm tired of people who pretend it ain't.

Steam is the market leader in it's business with a market share of 75%. Epic is not even close to Steam.

I remember someone once said times are bad for ESO, when Fallout 76 has more steam players then ESO.

Right now according to their data more people on Steam are into Fallout 76 then into ESO

Furyous wrote: »

Horace-Wimp wrote: »

Not everyone plays ESO through Steam.

karthrag_inak wrote: »

not this again. in 2017 eso was not on epic launcher. now it is.

📊 How Statistics Work

When people want to know what is happening in a big group, they do not ask every single person. That would take too long. Instead, they look at a smaller group, called a sample. If the sample is chosen the same way each time, it shows the bigger trend.

Think about school. If a teacher wants to know if kids like pizza day, she does not need to ask the whole school. She can ask one class, and if most of them like it, that tells her what the rest probably think too.

ESO works the same way. Not everyone plays through Steam, but Steam players are one class we can see. Their numbers go up and down just like the rest of the game.

If the company does not share the full numbers, the only fair choice is to use the numbers we do have. Steam Charts are public and easy to track. They show us whether the game is growing or shrinking.

So Steam is not the whole school, but it is enough to see the trend. Ignoring it means ignoring the only clear evidence we have.

• How many were playing on Steam who are now on another laucher?
• How many are launching through Steam now and then?
• How many new players are buying direct now and then?

Stamicka wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

So the time has shown now, nobody wants to play Vengeance anymore, as soon GH is back up.
@ZOS can you finally stomp that project now?

As much as I'd like them to allocate more resources to actually fixing the problems in GH, I think keeping it up will only show them that they are out of touch with what the community wants when it continues to get smaller and smaller. Along with the fact that some people actually do enjoy it, albeit a lot less, but allowing the small portion of them to play it is fine. They just need to, for once, dial in on cyro PvP and minimizing the issues it has. It's one of the main reasons people are still around, even with how bad it can get during volendrung spawns.

The issue with live GH cyrodil is the game itself. To fix it involves cutting out half the sets in the game, cutting down on proc effects like poisons, status effects, passives. Then gutting skills so they dont have multiple paragraph parts to them. Major rule changes would have to be reverted like how over time effects used to not stack. Tons of other game design needs to change like how everyone moves 2x the old run speed and mount speed letting players not get ganked. Groups easily converge without being split up by gankers and side objectives artificially spreading the population out.

Its quite literally making a new game from scratch at this point. Which is where many hoped vengeance would lead to, but no plan from zos has been released or discussed to this extent.

Vengeance was made to give a new experience to PvP but the main reason was to address performance issues and allow more people to play, so the main issue isn't balance but performance that should be addressed, and fixing the issue of memory leak which has existed for such a long period of time, just that issue alone would make performance day and night.

Balance and performance both need to be addressed because PvP will continue to decline otherwise. If they address performance, but not balance, people will still avoid PvP. If they address balance, but not performance, then Cyrodiil is still unplayable and the population caps are too low to keep it fun.

MincMinc is totally right and they articulated what I was trying to say much better than me. The first Vengeance test performed pretty well and held a ton of people. They should've tested more aggressively by adding as much as they could while maintaining the performance and population caps of Vengeance 1. Instead they conducted tests months apart and added very little at a time.

I think it's likely they could've maintained the performance and population of Vengeance 1 even after adding simple stat based sets, more skills, and a bit more complexity to the existing skills. At some point we would end up with something closely resembling 2015-2016 PvP in ESO. Damage and healing values could be tweaked as needed without worrying about PvE at all. There was a reason PvP had such massive populations and a steady influx of new players back then. One Tamriel was one of the biggest PvP mass exoduses I have ever seen and that's the patch when the procs and heavy armor builds really started to get out of control. Grey Host is significantly worse than even One Tamriel Cyrodiil was. It's no surprise PvPers refuse to return and new players quit after staying in for just a few minutes.

Think about how much needs to be calculated in an environment like Grey Host vs. an environment like Vengeance. A single light attack in Grey Host does it's own damage, can proc a proc set, can proc an enchant, the enchant can proc a status effect, then the proc set can proc a status effect. All of that is impacted by CP and there's probability calculations needed for those damage events. That's a lot of instances of damage from one small action and from a gameplay perspective it's extremely low skill and effortless. I think it's better for both performance and balance if a player is more directly responsible for the damage they deal in PvP environments. You should actually have to use and time abilities to be effective. If you agree with me here, then ask yourself how Grey Host will address the issue of free effortless damage without having terrible consequences for PvE.

Battle Spirit alone can't fix that.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Someone internally said they are simply shocked at the lengths folks go through to troll. It's exhausting.

Theignson wrote: »

Artisan: "The best PvP players are without a shadow of a doubt, those who play in current GH and try to fight equal or greater numbers than those they currently have in their group. The "super serious" ones are the ones that make comps and builds for every single person in their group to be optimized so they can fight as many people as they can. "

Ceruulean: "Maybe back in 2018 when the population was higher and there was actual competition and strategy in Cyrodiil, I'd believe that CP Cyro required skill of the chess kind. Zone chat was full of spies and people calling out plays and doing psychological mind games and whatnot. But nowadays, the population caps are low and it's mostly ball groups fighting zergs and waiting for some other ball group to contest them, and they're dueling for 10 minutes with no one dying. I suppose these GvG need to be pre-arranged in Discord nowadays with exclusive signups like vet trials. So fun."

It is interesting that most of the posts are from people who refused to go into VG or who refused to go into GH. Having played extensively in both gives some perspective.

The main "skill" in current GH ballgroups is staying on crown (not always easy to do if you have never tried it at max speed) and everyone keeping their HOTs/shields up. If you do this, current GH ballgroups are very hard to kill. They have insane damage mitigation. This doesnt prevent their damage output, mainly due to RoA. RoA pulls all the fish together so the BG dumps its damage. Rinse, repeat every 8 seconds. It is mindless god mode. Thousands of posts have been made trying to explain to ZOS how RoA ruined PvP. To no effect. For over 2 years every single BG or small man has been using this boring, stale, repetitive,broken meta.

The irony is that in VG you actually had to have skill, since there were no proc sets to automate key actions. People complain it is only numbers in VG, not true. Sure if you tried to take your 8 man through 6 flaming oils and 5 meatbags and run into 30 players, you would get dissolved-- but that is actually more challenging than current god-mode.

I did see a ballgroup in VG that used careful allocation of abilities and coordination to destroy pugs. It was an AD ballgroup and they proved that coordination and planning could prevail. They defeated bigger zergs. But it was much, much more challenging to achieve this in VG than GH.

AvA battles were much more fun in VG; no god mode ballgroups running around the keep for 45 minutes, instead huge battles with hundreds of players that were hard to predict; several times with lower numbers we won keep battles due to proper use of defensive siege and good timing of pushing out.

Of course outside of prime time VG was dead and was a nightcap fiasco with EP taking the whole map. But this is also a problem in GH.

I would vote for both zones to continue, VG and GH, with reasonable adjustments in both over time to improve them. And I would continue to play in both.