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Re: U50 Feedback Thread for Class Mastery
MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.
Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.
It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.
What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?
Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!
You're playing the wrong game man. The past year with subclassing NB's Assassination line has dominated the meta including other crit related skill lines to stack Crit Damage to ridiculous levels with delayed burst.
Every build needs a Major Resolve skill, so you have 7 options, the most obvious come down to Restoring Light and Storm Calling. Rune Focus is great, but if you don't need the sustain and prefer offense, Storm Calling is much more advantageous due to having well balanced passives and the best mobility skill in the game. Just so happens that during this crit meta, players are picking up Assassination and Animal Companions, both of which have Crit Damage, and you also need a Major Brutality/Sustain skill, to which Betty works well for. This pushes out the great Restoring Light line in favour of Storm Calling.
No one is picking up Storm Calling strictly for their 108 w/s damage, and not a single person is touching Dark Magic and Daedric Summoning the same way no one is touching Shadow or Siphoning. So what exactly is your point? Assassination has some of, if not the best passives and abilities in the game, why would you even begin to compare these in a vaccum like that?
Is it PVE? Crit chance is also meta there, Assassination, and Herald of the Tome are the top picks on every build, but it's hard to take you seriously when you're the same person that said Sorc has the best cleave in the game because of Empower + Overload. We get it, you hate Sorc, cool. News flash, both NB and Sorc have similar problems of being prejudiced against for dealing too much single target DPS while ignoring the fact that they have more complex rotations, reliant on weaving, and no cleave. We're in the same boat.
This whole discussion started based on the notion that proc sets and status effects proc Static Reverb which is completely false. No one here is trying to knock NB down, in fact many of us commented on how underpowered the Masteries were.
This is a thread about class mastery.
Technically also Scribing class mastery as well (see Warden Charm): the base class. Not just a stat-stick subclass skill-line.
Just because one line in combination with another set of sublclasses lines doesn't make pureclass NB somehow cream of the crop.
Just like how you not that even with the games best mobility+stun in the game, Stormcalling is a great line as well.
Personally speaking, IMO a 1-slot mobility/stun is much more versatile than the Assassination skill-line when pureclassing. (especially in a skill-line that can use Overload LA into Streak into Overload LA)
Re: Whatever happend to monster styles?
i think they are mostly in IA vendor now as i havent seen a helm drop post following a arms pack in crown story in like forever
Re: Nerfing WW further in Next Update for PvE?!
Literally any Class has SOME 1bar build that is capable of hitting the same damage or near to it on Live right now that PTS WW can, so let's not act like it's some outlier, nor HA Sorc.Pinktraining wrote: »I completely agree that WW should be nerfed in PvE. How can a "non-class playstyle" using only 6 skills be allowed to achieve higher DPS more easily than class players who painstakingly practice 2-bar skills?
No, hasn't the impact of HA-Sorc on the game been enough to teach people a lesson? Almost all end-game games are HA-Sorc, it's enough already. WW should be nerfed along with Sorc, giving other classes a chance to enter end-game games.
How about intead of being salty and selfish and demanding things we don't like get nerfed, we ask instead for the things we like to get buffed? And we keep in mind that literally only DK has had it rework so far, a point a lot of people seem to REALLY enjoy overlooking/ignoring.
They need to eliminate Signet for werewolf. If you barred Feral for its toxic interaction... you should bar werewolf. I see no rationale thought beyond this.
Wuuffyy
1
Re: Was it ever considered to simply disable Malevolent Promise if Corpseburster is worn or vice versa?
Every other class gets full access to all mastery passives in both PvE and PvP. It’s not an adequate solution for zos to wait for the necro rework to address this.
Urvoth
1
Re: Necro class mastery passives are disappointing
CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »In response to the Malevolent Promise dev comment:
I appreciate the response regarding Malevolent Promise, but I still think there are better solutions that would allow its use in PvP. For instance, since the issue is with the Corpseburster interaction, why not disable Corpseburster in PvP or significantly decrease the set's damage while Battle-Spirit is active? Corpseburster is already a niche PvP set and it would be much better for Necros as a whole to lose only a single set compared to an entire mastery passive. There's many other viable PvP sets, yet only 5 mastery passives per class.
There's a major use case for Malevolent Promise in PvP outside of using Corpseburster. Necro has forever lacked a strong class "sticky" dot, and Malevolent Promise would allow the tether to finally be viable in PvP. The fast ticks, alternate cost, unique damage bonus, and regen/aoe damage make it a conceptually solid skill, but its static nature and small aoe radius unfortunately mean that it's nonviable in dynamic PvP environments. This is of course on top of also being able to get faster corpse generation for skills like Deaden Pain.
Necro's identity goes a lot further than corpse bursting, and many necro players also aren't interested in a Corpseburster playstyle. It seems rather unfair to give Necro one less mastery option than other classes in PvP purely because of one interaction that can be mitigated in other ways.
I also have to question why this passive is being added in the first place if the intention after playtesting was to disable it completely in PvP. If you don't want to restrict Corpseburster in any way, why add a passive that is removed in half the game's content? Corpseburster is already fairly viable in PvE without Malevolent Promise, whereas skills like siphon are otherwise completely nonviable in PvP. Why not add a proc dot or mastery passive that leans into alternate necro themes that could work in all modes of content?
Once again, I don't think pushing this back to the necro rework and/or telling players to just wait for the rework is appropriate here. The necro rework is the second to last and isn't coming for another 2 years. That's far too long to address an issue where an already struggling class gets access to one less passive than other classes (that are also being reworked earlier).
I would much rather have the two disabled in tandem with each other.
Corpseburster, while niche, is very fun to use in PvP in an "old-school" Grave Robber set up, and looks to be getting even better next patch for that.
If the problem is the interaction between the two, just disable the interaction between the two. Don't take away either tool if the issue is the combination of two tools.
I agree, I’d prefer they just not work in tandem. That seems difficult or not possible though, given what zos has stated. I do think either way necro deserves to have a fully functioning 5th mastery passive. If zos can’t figure out an appropriate solution with Corpseburster, maybe the best option is to completely redo the passive.
Urvoth
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Re: Addressing U50 PTS Combat & Ability Concerns
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »As for the feedback about the lack of a ranged taunt, we totally hear you. At this time, we just haven’t found the right solution without reworking an existing morph and having that affect something else. Whatever solution we implement, we want to make sure it’s thematically appropriate as well (for example, Werewolves don’t use magic!)
Maybe a set to increase the range of the taunt can be made in the future.
For example:
Vengeful Gaze sets: Increases the range of all your taunt abilities below 22 meters to 22 meters and applies Minor Breach to the target during the taunt.
In this way, werewolves can gain better ranged taunts through similar sets, and other general skills, such as Pierce Armor and Vault+Taunt.etc, may also benefit from it.
We’ve seen some feedback that the SorcererClass Mastery kit feels underpowered and not competitive with other classes. We’d like to better understand why some of you are feeling this way.
Others, such as @MashmalloMan, @Dracane, @pluvioisaplanet, and @Rkindaleft, have provided excellent analyses. However, I would like to add that Sorc, due to its lack of critical damage and penetration, faces more limitations in gear selection compared to other classes.
For example, you can see many Sorc players using Monolith + Mora Scribe's Thesis in U50. This is because Mora Scribe's provides the critical damage and critical chance that Sorc needs, and because it's light armor, it can be worn on body parts rather than jewels to increase Sorc's penetration.
Because subclass builds offer sufficient critical damage and penetration, most teams no longer assign support sets like EC, Alkosh, or Crimson Oath's Rive to their teams. Therefore, while Sorc may appear to deal high damage on the Trial dummy, in actual gameplay, due to the lack of critical damage and penetration, and the absence of a reliable source of Major Sorcery (Critical Surge is not used in organized teams), Sorc's actual DPS will be lower than on the Trial dummy. Combined with other reasons mentioned, this is why you rarely see teams carrying more than one Sorc DPS at ESO-LOG.
Addendum: This isn't to say I want every class's mainstream sets to be the same. In fact, I'm very satisfied with the current state of Sorc and Mora Scribe's Thesis; finally seeing different sets appear in end-game is truly refreshing. However, I must point out that due to the limitations in equipment selection, Sorc lacks flexibility in choosing sets. In the future, the official team may need to release other equipment similar to Mora Scribe's Thesis to provide Sorc with new set options.
Re: Night Market - Week One Notes
We have numbers that COULD be inflated because of the way getting Keys seems to work. Like I said before, it's possible people aren't doing certain content because that's what they WANT to be doing, it's because they HAVE to in order to do the Dungeons/Trials. We have no way of knowing how much of that Favor is gotten because of that, and we have no idea if engagement would fall off at all if the Keys were one-time obtained or able to stack. Even ZOS' data can't tell them WHY people are doing certain content, just that it's being done.
There is, again, the problem of taking an initial burst of activity at the start of a new Zone (because let's not forget it IS a whole Zone and not simply an Event like the Jubilee or New Life) to mean something is actually popular or not. Because EVERY new Zone has that initial burst of activity. What will be more telling isn't how active something is at its beginning, when people are coming in to check it out or working to get what they want, but rather how active it is towards the end. Is the content engaging and fun enough once people are done getting what they want that they keep doing it simply because it's fun? We already have people who've been largely positive starting to get bored or burned out, and some of them don't even sound like they've been really grinding particularly hard.
We can't judge something's success from just a few weeks of it being introduced. Most everything is a success at first. But that doesn't necessarily mean it'll maintain that momentum. We won't have a really accurate picture of how successful it really is until closer to the end of the first run.
As for the LFG tool, I would honestly be surprised if it wasn't having the biggest surge of activity since it's inception given how hard the NM is. But that also doesn't necessarily mean that all those groups are succeeding, just that they're being put together. It's kind of designed to force people into using it too because of how low the popcap is across the whole Zone per instance; if you DON'T use the LFG tool you more than likely won't be finding a group, from what I've seen other people mentioning.
And I know this probably sounds like "oh just disregard the numbers to push a dislike" but that's not the point at all. The point is to say numbers at the START of something won't matter as much as numbers at the END of it.
There is, again, the problem of taking an initial burst of activity at the start of a new Zone (because let's not forget it IS a whole Zone and not simply an Event like the Jubilee or New Life) to mean something is actually popular or not. Because EVERY new Zone has that initial burst of activity. What will be more telling isn't how active something is at its beginning, when people are coming in to check it out or working to get what they want, but rather how active it is towards the end. Is the content engaging and fun enough once people are done getting what they want that they keep doing it simply because it's fun? We already have people who've been largely positive starting to get bored or burned out, and some of them don't even sound like they've been really grinding particularly hard.
We can't judge something's success from just a few weeks of it being introduced. Most everything is a success at first. But that doesn't necessarily mean it'll maintain that momentum. We won't have a really accurate picture of how successful it really is until closer to the end of the first run.
As for the LFG tool, I would honestly be surprised if it wasn't having the biggest surge of activity since it's inception given how hard the NM is. But that also doesn't necessarily mean that all those groups are succeeding, just that they're being put together. It's kind of designed to force people into using it too because of how low the popcap is across the whole Zone per instance; if you DON'T use the LFG tool you more than likely won't be finding a group, from what I've seen other people mentioning.
And I know this probably sounds like "oh just disregard the numbers to push a dislike" but that's not the point at all. The point is to say numbers at the START of something won't matter as much as numbers at the END of it.
Arunei
5
Re: Update 50 PTS – Week 4 Summary
ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Hi everyone! Welcome to our Update 50 PTS summary for week 4. In case you missed our update here, we are back to having five weeks of PTS this cycle and for the foreseeable future.
As with our previous PTS Weekly Summaries, this post compiles a high-level summary of the Update 50 PTS – Week 4 top feedback points and issues. The purpose of these weekly PTS summaries is to give you visibility into the main pieces of feedback and most prominent bugs we are tracking. As a gentle reminder, these summaries are not intended to be as comprehensive as our PTS weekly patch notes, so they will not include everything that will appear in those.
You may read our summaries here for Week 1, Week 2, and Week 3.
Thank you for your continued PTS bug reports and feedback, and as always, we welcome your thoughts on these PTS summaries.
Challenge Difficulty
- Angof the Gravesinger [Bug]: This is a carryover from last week’s PTS Summary, with a timing update. While playing on Master or Vestige, standing in Gabrielle Benele's Light magic does not save you from Angof's Vengeance as it should. This will be fixed in PTS Week 5.
- Changes to Master and Seasoned Damage Output [Feedback]: This is a carryover from last week’s PTS Summary. With PTS Week 5, we are making some changes to the damage output for Master and Seasoned Challenge Difficulty levels. We are making these changes to address the feedback that the damage output between Adventurer, Seasoned, and Master did not feel different enough. With the changes the Challenge Difficulty levels will look like this for PTS Week 5 as well as the Challenge Difficulty launch with Update 50 in June:
- Adventurer: No changes
- Seasoned: -50% (was -20%) Damage Done, +100% Damage Taken, +20% XP, +50% Gold
- Master: -65% (was -50%) Damage Done, +300% Damage Taken, +75% XP, +100% Gold
- Vestige: -80% Damage Done, +600% Damage Taken, +100% XP, +200% Gold
- UI: This is a carryover from last week’s PTS Summary. UI elements for Challenge Difficulty do not update in real time on Keyboard UI and Console UI. This will be fixed in time for Update 50 launch in June.
Class Mastery
- General [Feedback]: We have seen a variety of questions and concerns about some Class Mastery passives – particularly for Necromancers, Nightblades, Sorcerers, and Templars, feeling underwhelming compared to others, or generally not feeling like they match certain playstyles or function as well as you’d like for certain types of content. We have compiled some of the main topics we’ve seen from you and have answered them in this longer post here.
- Necromancer – Malevolent Promise [Feedback]: In addition to the info we provided in last week’s PTS Summary about the Malevolent Promise passive changes and PvP content, we wanted to address a follow-up question we saw. Some of you asked if this change was due to how Malevolent Promise behaves when paired with the Corpseburster item set. The short answer is yes. In our internal testing, we observed that certain combinations paired with Malevolent Promise and Corpseburster were overwhelmingly powerful in a way that created an oppressive gameplay experience, especially when multiple Necromancers are coordinating. It had no counterplay and was effectively a surefire “I win” combo – fun for the caster, not fun for the target, and not healthy for our overall PvP experience. We did try a few other solutions such as a cooldown per target, or only one Necro in the group getting the buff and the other not, etc. It also wasn’t a quick decision – we exhausted a lot of solutions and time internally exploring these other possible options to try to improve the PvP experience, and making Malevolent Promise usable on only non-player targets in PvP was were we landed for now. It is possible we'll revisit this in the future, potentially when we get to the Necromancer class refresh. We hope this additional context helps. (Related post.)
- Sorcerer – Font of Power [Bug]: This is a carryover from last week’s PTS Summary, with a timing update. This passive can occasionally go to a group member instead of the caster. This will be fixed in PTS Week 5.
- Sorcerer – Sphere of Influence [Bug]: There is a bug with Sphere of Influence not acting as it should. Currently it is only applying to one player instead of two, and it is not working with the Daedric Refuge AoE shield. This will be fixed in PTS Week 5.
Favors
- Rewards [Feedback]: This is a carry-over from previous PTS Weekly Summaries. We have seen your feedback that the rewards for Favors don’t feel substantial enough, so we have updated these rewards across the board. You will continue to see tweaks to this through PTS Week 5, but these all should be much more rewarding now as well as each Favor having a unique reward pull for completing them.
Player Experience Improvements
- Guild Mail [Bug]: We have fixed an issue where guild mail was not showing a generic icon for guilds that had not yet chosen guild heraldry. This will be fixed in PTS Week 5.
- Path to Adventure Golden Pursuits Campaign [Bugs]: We have fixed several general polish and continuity bugs with this Golden Pursuits campaign. These fixes will be in PTS Week 5.
Thieves Guild & Sheogorath Content
- Daggerfall Thieves Den [Bug]: This is a carryover from last week’s PTS Summary. We are investigating reports of players getting flagged for stealing after taking items from inside the Daggerfall Thieves Den.
- Quests – General: This is a carryover from last week’s PTS Summary. We are working on fixes for minor continuity and polish issues and some quest blockers across various quests in the Thieves Guild and Sheogorath content. Some of these fixes will be in PTS Week 5, and others will go in for Update 50 launch in June.
- Racing to Nowhere Quest [Bug]: This is a carryover from last week’s PTS Summary. Going through the portal in Quen's room can teleport you back to the start of her room or the nexus room. This will be fixed in PTS Week 5.
Werewolf Refresh
- General [Bugs]: We are investigating a number of miscellaneous visual-related issues with the new Werewolf model. These issues will be fixed with Update 50 in June. (Related post.)
- General [Feedback]: Over the past few weeks and especially following last week’s changes to the Werewolf kit, we have seen both your PTS feedback and follow-up questions. These have ranged from concerns about the Werewolf’s general power in PvE and how the Werewolf kit is interacting with some Class Mastery passives, to questions about overall Werewolf power, damage output, tanking, and healing. We have compiled some of the main topics we’ve seen from you and have answered them in this longer post here.
Miscellaneous
- Dark Anchors & Zone Incursions: We identified an issue where Dark Anchor events, Geyers, Oblivion Portals, and Volcanic Vents were not granting rewards chests upon completion, as they should. This will be fixed in PTS Week 5.
Regarding class changes, please remember that each change made to make PvP better is also changing PvE behavior. It is a shamed that so many good skills are getting nerfed because of PvP complaints.
Perhaps PvP can have a dedicated skills so the rest if the game does not have to be nerfed.
They are trying that it’s called vengeance and everyone hates it
Re: Addressing U50 PTS Combat & Ability Concerns
YOu CANNOT balance around what the above-average or top players can do.
Do people not remember U35? That whole debacle happened because ZOS attempted to raise the floor by lowering the ceiling. What happened, though? Who was it that was adversely affected by that? It was the average or below-average player hit the hardest.
The top players will ALWAYS, ALWAYS find what's the strongest. What works the best. What gives the highest numbers, what does the most damage or tanks the most damage or heals the most damage.
When was the last time lowering the ceiling actually stopped the power creep? When was the last time it actually raised DPS or tanking or healing for average players?
Power creep doesn't happen because of average players. It happens because of the top players finding new interactions with new Sets and old Skills/Passives.
No matter how much you nerf WW, ZOS, certain people will keep claiming it isn't enough, because THEY will continue to find ways of pumping out high damage and will just keep saying "Look how OP it still is!" while the rest of us who aren't absolute aces at the game will just watch as WW keeps getting gutted over and over before it even reaches Live.
You CANNOT balance around what the ceiling can do, because it never raises the floor, it only ever pushes it farther into the ground.
Do people not remember U35? That whole debacle happened because ZOS attempted to raise the floor by lowering the ceiling. What happened, though? Who was it that was adversely affected by that? It was the average or below-average player hit the hardest.
The top players will ALWAYS, ALWAYS find what's the strongest. What works the best. What gives the highest numbers, what does the most damage or tanks the most damage or heals the most damage.
When was the last time lowering the ceiling actually stopped the power creep? When was the last time it actually raised DPS or tanking or healing for average players?
Power creep doesn't happen because of average players. It happens because of the top players finding new interactions with new Sets and old Skills/Passives.
No matter how much you nerf WW, ZOS, certain people will keep claiming it isn't enough, because THEY will continue to find ways of pumping out high damage and will just keep saying "Look how OP it still is!" while the rest of us who aren't absolute aces at the game will just watch as WW keeps getting gutted over and over before it even reaches Live.
You CANNOT balance around what the ceiling can do, because it never raises the floor, it only ever pushes it farther into the ground.
Arunei
6