Best Of
Re: U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf
Last PTS you said DK was broken. It's not. It's clearly the new standard
I hope you understand that when all classes have been reworked, we are back straight to square one like with 1.0 classes. The only difference is that powercreep has gone through the roof. Builds are now dishing out 8k+ DPS and tanking 7k-8k DPS like a joke, with stats that has never existed in the game.
You know what this does? It's only going to separate the gap between casual players and sweaty ones even more. If ZOS wanted to give power to pure classes build, they should have done with class masteries and call it a day, We'd never end up in this predicament if they followed this path instead of reworking a class one at a time.
You'd also wind up with an outdated combat system with many unutilized terrible abilities, dated VFX and generally unappealing combat system for the wider MMORPG audience.
Class (and weapon) reworks have to happen and it's a big reason why ESO has been receiving a lot of positive attention lately from people tuning in from other MMORPGs.
Obviously you cannot do all of them at once... or redesign things into mediocricity, who'd be hyped about that?
Decimus
6
Re: Inventory is Excessive Micro-Management
Players who want to play free, quit the game, yes.agelonestar wrote: »The inventory issue is a key reason people quit the game. It literally drives people away.
I’d honestly prefer that the crafting bag was included in the base game. Give me - as a long term ESO+ subscriber - some other benefit to replace it.
Ultimately I would rather keep players in the game.
Re: April 20th Vengeance Only..
I am going to argue those "veteran PvPers" would stop playing ESO PvP alltogether if there would be ever any kind of balance between classes and builds in ESO PvP. Yeah, of course they like GH more because you can get carried by your god builds there. Vengeance is not boring it is balanced. Talk about build freedom of GH and then use exact same one build together with all sweaties throughout whole patch and then change to the next god build next patch. And enjoy clearing the more casual folk or players that dont go meta easier. Doesnt look like build freedom to me.
All those hardcore ESO PvP streamers and Youtubers with K/D counters on their screen suddenly stop streaming and posting videos. Yeah yeah, they dont like Vengeance. That should be the reason
Is it that or are you missing your stupid OP Maarselok builds, or DK one shot combos or Damage Skill Line stack subclass meta? Your proc sets to carry your damage for you? Medium armor high sustain, high healing, high dmg, high crit, high mobility, speed cap streak, high hp builds to carry you? Is that what you miss?
All those hardcore ESO PvP streamers and Youtubers with K/D counters on their screen suddenly stop streaming and posting videos. Yeah yeah, they dont like Vengeance. That should be the reason
Is it that or are you missing your stupid OP Maarselok builds, or DK one shot combos or Damage Skill Line stack subclass meta? Your proc sets to carry your damage for you? Medium armor high sustain, high healing, high dmg, high crit, high mobility, speed cap streak, high hp builds to carry you? Is that what you miss?
Re: Wisteria's motivation? (Tanlorin's questline, text includes spoilers)
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Modern storytelling not allowing messaging if it's not the correct messages is very much part of the higher standards.
And if you can't address pronouns directly by having characters discuss them but you also can't just make it undiscussed and automatic, then it becomes a spot where you can't have such a character at all because the standards are impossible.
Also all of the henchman are literally sent by Tanlorin's girlfriend. It would weird for them not to know.
It's great you came up with a plausible explanation as to how they know. You could state as much without assuming whatever is being assumed by people who asked about it who may have missed this. Honestly fans of fiction often discuss plot holes about anything and everything - and sometimes there are explanations that can be considered and that's fine.
I still think discussions about that really are secondary to the fact that Tanlorin simply isn't very likable to many people and is polarizing, and would be whether they were nonbinary or not.
I haven't assumed anything about anyone in particular. But, I think it's important to talk about how nonbinary characters are held to higher standards when it comes to quality of writing when discussing Tanlorin. Because so much of the discourse centers around their non-binary identity, even when the story really doesn't. Other than Tanlorin having they/them pronouns, it really doesn't factor in at all. And I think it can be important to examine and understand how these things can impact our understanding and feelings towards these characters. Because sometimes their can be unconcious bias in even the otherwise most thoughtful, intelligent, and fair-minded people.
I'm just saying there are threads about the quality of writing, and us really delving deep into all kinds of questlines on these forums. We scrutinize how characters are written, and if they fit past lore and the setting. This is not unique to Tanlorin. Most threads here don't discuss Tanlorin at all because they are about other questlines. The level of detail being discussed across the forums can be intense. What can be viewed as very small details are discussed at length.
While it's possible some people will be extra critical of Tanlorin solely because they are nonbinary, I haven't seen that here in this thread. I won't say it never happens, as I have seen it on Reddit and Twitter, where people are very negative about this aspect of their identity being included at all.
Some may wonder if they/them pronouns were a thing in the lore previously for the general population o elves, as opposed to other genderless beings like daedra or characters that were viewed as exceptional, or if it is a recent addition due to modern culture issues. And if that is the case, how should we view that? Is it good writing to add to the lore in this way? It can be another topic of discussion as to whether such characters existed all along, or not.
I never said that anyone who dislikes Tanlorin does so purely because they're nonbinary. I even pointed out another one holding Tanlorin back, which was the cringe absurdist humor used in their dialogue. Which was too modern and very much gives young American women in the 2000s.
I'm just pointing out that how their non-binary status can result in the story being held to a higher standard. This honestly true of many stories featuring minorities. I think it's good to examine how unconscious biases can influence our opinion on such things from time to time.
We all have them. It doesn't make a person bad or hateful.
That can be true of some people. But here we hold pretty much all stories to high standards. Even light-hearted event quests like the recent Heart's Day quests. So if it feels like nitpicking, we kind of do that to everything
Re: U50 Feedback Thread for Whitestrake's Mayhem
Taking away our event ticket replacement (trade bars) is one of the most insulting things you've ever done to the PVP community who is already deeply convinced that ZOS does not care about PVP. How dare you
SO WE CAN'T EVEN EARN THE REWARDS BY PLAYING THE MODE. I can't state this plainly enough due to forum censorship but <snip> all the way off.
There's an enormous number of style motifs that will become available via the Impresario and Philus Dormer in the new version of Whitestrakes Mayhem, so keep your eyes open for trade bar opportunities between now and then.
SO WE CAN'T EVEN EARN THE REWARDS BY PLAYING THE MODE. I can't state this plainly enough due to forum censorship but <snip> all the way off.
Re: U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf
Lycanthrope1997 wrote: »So under normal conditions in normal fights, WW does 4-6k like every other sweaty player in duels has been doing for the past X years.
Also, you are treading into topics you have zero knowledge about. I have spent a considerable amount of time dueling in Stormhaven on PC NA and I have NEVER seen your name there. You clearly do not know what a normal DPS value looks like in a duel, nor do you know what's bad or unhealthy DPS. So let me give you some baseline DPS values going forward so we can stop spewing false information:
Bad DPS:
<2k for burst builds
<3k for pressure builds
With this DPS, the only people you're going to kill are complete newbies. If you consistently pull <2k DPS, then there are only 2 scenarios:
1) Your opponent's pressure is so great that you're permanently stuck on back bar.
2) You genuinely have bad mechanics
I have done <2.5k DPS before on my burst build, but that was against a full cancer build with 7k+ DPS. I was basically stuck on back bar 80% of the fight trying to survive. Most people who do <2k-3k DPS generally fall into the 2nd category.
Average DPS:
2k - 2.5k for burst builds
3.5k - 4k for pressure builds
This is where the majority of the playerbase sits at. You have just enough damage to kill other average players, but not enough to kill better ones. The only exception is a pure burst build, which often deals around 3k - 3.5k DPS but can still have the potential to 100-0 someone. The requirement is that you must have exceptional mechanics to kill better players.
Good DPS:
2.5k - 3.5k for burst builds
4k- 4.5k for pressure builds
If your DPS falls in this range, you're above average. Generally, you will win 6-7/10 of your fights with this kind of DPS (8-9/10 if you have exceptional mechanics). The people you're going to lose to are:
1) Those with significantly more DPS
2) Those better than you
3) Those outplaying you
This category is where average players with pressure duel builds and top tier ones with burst builds live. The DPS advantage of pressure duel builds often allow average players to achieve greater DPS than their mechanics alllow, while top-tier players make up for the lack of DPS with their mechanics.
This is where I normally sit at. My burst build can consistently deal 3.5k-4.5k DPS to most people if I weave perfectly (even exceeding some people on pressure builds), but I don't have enough pressure to push past 4.5k unless my opponent is extremely squishy.
Excellent DPS:
4k - 4.5k for burst builds
5k - 5.5k for pressure buildsIf you're in this category, then you will win 9/10 of your duels. This is where the top 1% of duelers are at. Go to Stormhaven and you'll maybe find 1-2 people who can achieve this level of DPS.
To achieve this stage, you must have excellent mechanics and a min-maxed build partly specced for dueling. It doesn't necessarily have to be 100% a dueling build, but the stats on it should be very high and maximized, and parts of the skills/gears should lean towards 1v1s. Something like Zaan/Essence Thief/Rallying Cry/Monomyth can easily achieve >4.5k DPS with top-tier mechanics. Some classes can make it easier to reach this DPS (DK for example), but you'll still need very good weaving/rotations to consistently pull off 5k- 5.5k DPS.
I sometimes reach 5k DPS on my burst build, but only if my opponent is extremely squishy.
Top-tier DPS:
>5.5k to <6.5kIf you have this DPS, then congratulations, you're in a very small group of duelers who barely lose. The only losses you take are from getting outplayed by someone on or better than your skill level AND with similar DPS. Most Stormhaven duels feel pretty boring for you.
To achieve this level, you must have nigh-perfect weaving and a min-maxed build mostly specced for dueling. Your skills and gears should be used strictly for 1v1 fights. This is where you will see builds incorporate several proc sets and duel skills (like Trap Beast, Unstable Core, etc.)
Uncounterable DPS:
>6.5kAt this stage, you don't lose. Most fights last less than 30 seconds, with some taking as little as 5 seconds. Fights at this stage become a healing check for your opponent. People simply do not have the healing or defense to survive your damage at all. The only losses you incur are from self-mistakes, nothing more. People could be doing their absolute best and you would still obliterate them.
To achieve this stage, you need to have nigh-perfect mechanics and a build purely specced for dueling. However, some builds are just so cancer than you only need to have decent mechanics and still pull 6.5k+ DPS. Pyrebrand/Rele DK is a prime example.
The highest DPS build I've fought against before U49-U50 was Pyrebrand/Rele DK, reaching 7k DPS. That build had 29k HP and 4 damage CPs. U50 WW is almost reaching that DPS with 40k HP, no class mastery passives and the 33% WD modifier. To claim that WW is somehow similar to builds in previous patches is an absurd statement.
I been playing since launch. I have seen builds one shot players like old Oakensoul DKs. Warden Northern Storm cheese. Arcanist was doing crazy status effect damage at one point. DKs can still one shot you. Heck even the sub class meta was one shotting players. Werewolf becomes strong again or has the potential to be then everyone wants to nerf it lol. Yet we see PvE sorcs hitting up to 211k Damage on a parse.
And none of those things you mentioned have anything in common.
You elevate Sorc doing 211k damage on a dummy to the same level as one shotting in pvp? Even though it gets repeated often that Sorc doing dummy damage has never meant anything. It is still not brought into any relevant pve content. Meanwhile 1 shotting in pvp is a real and tangible threat, not what some fool does against a static object.
Dracane
2
Re: April 20th Vengeance Only..
They have said (very clearly, and several times) that it is not possible to have both large population caps and decent performance in Cyrodiil owing to the drastically higher number of events the server has to process in a single thread (every hit of damage, every splash of healing, every movement etc.)
The PVP community has for a long time complained about decreasing population caps.
So the choices are either something that works a lot more like Vengeance and can support high population caps, or the status quo where each campaign has a small population cap and the popular one has a long queue.
I wonder if there is another option where each campaign is actually multi-instance, with population balancing. If you queue with a group you get to go in the same campaign otherwise you go in a random instance. All the scoring gets aggregated so whatever your instance of the campaign looks like you're still contributing to the overall month-end score. It would mean the system could keep legacy PVP behaviour and eliminate queueing for GH, but it would mean that the score didn't necessarily represent the battlefield and might be challenging for deciding how Emperorship should work, and it would mean just joining campaign and lfging in your PVP guild wouldn't be the same experience. But nobody else has suggested it to my knowledge, so I thought I would.
Bear in mind that there are also a ton of other persistent gripes that "stick with the current system" doesn't address - ball groups, troll tanks, edge builds with high damage, infinite resources and high armour at the same time.... Vengeance does effectively neuter them but the tests so far have probably been too far the other way in terms of neutering build diversity. And finally the issue of sets remains problematic for all game modes - there are far, far too many completely useless sets in the game, that see literally zero use in any form of gameplay except for by noobs that don't have a clue and are probably wearing completely mismatched gear in any case. Each new zone or dungeon adds to the problem.
Honestly, now that I have really looked into what vengeance does, this is EXACTLY what I have been saying needs to be done in ESO for YEARS now. Either this, or have specific sets you can use in pvp, and that is it. This will quite literally get me back into pvp, because I will not have to spend 4958305843589480593890 years grinding for gear again after being away for a year or 2. Now it comes down to skill, period. No more crutches.
Game on I say.
Jammy420
8
Re: April 20th Vengeance Only..
They have said (very clearly, and several times) that it is not possible to have both large population caps and decent performance in Cyrodiil owing to the drastically higher number of events the server has to process in a single thread (every hit of damage, every splash of healing, every movement etc.)
The PVP community has for a long time complained about decreasing population caps.
So the choices are either something that works a lot more like Vengeance and can support high population caps, or the status quo where each campaign has a small population cap and the popular one has a long queue.
I wonder if there is another option where each campaign is actually multi-instance, with population balancing. If you queue with a group you get to go in the same campaign otherwise you go in a random instance. All the scoring gets aggregated so whatever your instance of the campaign looks like you're still contributing to the overall month-end score. It would mean the system could keep legacy PVP behaviour and eliminate queueing for GH, but it would mean that the score didn't necessarily represent the battlefield and might be challenging for deciding how Emperorship should work, and it would mean just joining campaign and lfging in your PVP guild wouldn't be the same experience. But nobody else has suggested it to my knowledge, so I thought I would.
Bear in mind that there are also a ton of other persistent gripes that "stick with the current system" doesn't address - ball groups, troll tanks, edge builds with high damage, infinite resources and high armour at the same time.... Vengeance does effectively neuter them but the tests so far have probably been too far the other way in terms of neutering build diversity. And finally the issue of sets remains problematic for all game modes - there are far, far too many completely useless sets in the game, that see literally zero use in any form of gameplay except for by noobs that don't have a clue and are probably wearing completely mismatched gear in any case. Each new zone or dungeon adds to the problem.
The PVP community has for a long time complained about decreasing population caps.
So the choices are either something that works a lot more like Vengeance and can support high population caps, or the status quo where each campaign has a small population cap and the popular one has a long queue.
I wonder if there is another option where each campaign is actually multi-instance, with population balancing. If you queue with a group you get to go in the same campaign otherwise you go in a random instance. All the scoring gets aggregated so whatever your instance of the campaign looks like you're still contributing to the overall month-end score. It would mean the system could keep legacy PVP behaviour and eliminate queueing for GH, but it would mean that the score didn't necessarily represent the battlefield and might be challenging for deciding how Emperorship should work, and it would mean just joining campaign and lfging in your PVP guild wouldn't be the same experience. But nobody else has suggested it to my knowledge, so I thought I would.
Bear in mind that there are also a ton of other persistent gripes that "stick with the current system" doesn't address - ball groups, troll tanks, edge builds with high damage, infinite resources and high armour at the same time.... Vengeance does effectively neuter them but the tests so far have probably been too far the other way in terms of neutering build diversity. And finally the issue of sets remains problematic for all game modes - there are far, far too many completely useless sets in the game, that see literally zero use in any form of gameplay except for by noobs that don't have a clue and are probably wearing completely mismatched gear in any case. Each new zone or dungeon adds to the problem.
ajkb78
2
Re: April 20th Vengeance Only..
Maximus_Mordred wrote: »Maximus_Mordred wrote: »During its last appearance on PCNA, Vengeance suffered the same issue that plagued and ultimately defeated no proc PVP: As soon as the populations reach a certain level of imbalance, it becomes impossible to play against massive numbers as an underdog.
Yeah during my playtests the limited build options forces the entire camp into a numbers game. Whoever has the higher pop in one area wins - which isn't fun.
A zerg fest just stinks.BardokRedSnow wrote: ».Maximus_Mordred wrote: »ToddIngram wrote: »No amount of hyping by the vocal minority will change that.
Pot, meet kettle.
The only people who will stay in vengeance long term are the same ones who occupy the now dead ravenwatch, BR and below 50 campaigns. Jaded bitter pvpers that just wanna zerg, and pvers that just want their tier 3 rewards.
Perhaps there's been confusion about the marketing of the end product. Cyrodiil is built for zerging, not for having duels/1v1s, not for having smallscale fights, and certainly not for ballgroups or bombers.
It is built for zerging and siege warfare. If you don't like that, then that's fine, but the product is fundamentally not for you.
This may come as a surprise to some, but a lot of people, in fact a massive proportion of largescale PvPers play in Cyrodiil for the large-scale objective fights which rely around zerg v. zerg combat as a foundation. If you want personalised strictly skill-based fighting, there are other avenues in BGs, duels and IC.
Trying to change the behaviour of Cyrodiil and by extension how others can play the game, because it doesn't pander to your own personal style of play, especially when those styles of play already exist is not only selfish but reveals a critical lack of perspective. Play Cyrodiil in smallscale or solo of course, but you have no right to complain when the zerg runs you over.
You are mistaking what I mean by zerg fest.
I love massive battles, 1-2 hour keep battles at chal are amazing. I do not like the spin off tower humpers 1vxer fights... those are annoying to me.
In Cyrodiil (Gray Host) your groups build can turn the tide in a fight. If you've got a good setup you can make a difference.
In Veng... it's simply a numbers game. Whoever brings the most people to a keep wins. That isn't always the case in GH but it is 100% the case in a veng camp.
Thats what I mean by zerg fest.
Fair, I misunderstood what you were trying to say on that last post then. I agree that it has heavily shifted towards numbers over skill, but that's just a natural consequence of dramatically reducing the diversity of sets and playstyles - a necessary step to actually make those zerg battles viable in the first place. Given one or the other, I'd personally take the latter (although of course both would be optimal, but ZOS can't or won't make that a possibility).
However, what I said still stands in regards to the subset of players who actually do misunderstand Cyrodiil's intended purpose.
So first you were saying that on GH people get carried by their sets while skills matter in Vengeance and now you are saying the exact opposite and you agree that vengeance is more about numbers than skills? Did I get something wrong?
Re: U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf
Last PTS you said DK was broken. It's not. It's clearly the new standard
While you're praising the DK rework and trying pretty hard to defend the WW rework, I'm seeing the illusion that these "changes" are bringing. I hope you understand that when all classes have been reworked, we will be back to square one like with 1.0 classes. The only difference is that powercreep will go through the roof. Builds will now dish out 8k+ DPS and tank 7k-8k DPS like a joke, with stats that have never existed in the game. 50k+ HP with maxed out mitigation will be common, and infinite sustain allows for perma ability spam. Remember when 19k HP was the norm until it shot up to 23k HP, and now 35k-40k HP? Nothing changes, just more powercreep.
But you know what this will do though? It will only separate the gap between casual players and sweaty ones even more. If ZOS wanted to give power to pure classes build, they should have done that with class masteries and call it a day. We'd never end up in this predicament if they followed this path instead of reworking a class one at a time.
hoangdz
2