Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You said it was empty with no npcs around, which has a very "area not finished" vibe to me (not saying that's what it is, because if it's on the western half, it must be finished, but it does come across that way to me).

Around the entrance area, there are enemies, but in that part, deeper in, there was no one (maybe someone else just was faster than me and already killed everyone - but I didn't see any corpses and while I spent a few minutes there no one was respawning either, so I consider it less likely).

I went in to have a look-see today. There were some spiders and Worm Cultists about, but the area you were in was empty, like you said. There were other players in there when I was, and at one point one of them phased out, so I suppose when you are on the appropriate quest for it, you'll see something else.

Syldras wrote: »

But we also have the same situation - quest npcs only appearing upon accepting the related quest (before that, it was just empty) - in other parts of Solstice, for example in Sanguine's carnival. So that's not uncommon.

Speaking of Sanguine's carnival...

I did that quest today, and while on the whole I found it ok, there were some aspects of it that didn't work for me.

When I first do a quest, I like to talk to all associated npcs, not just the quest givers. That means going around and talking to anyone in the immediate vicinity. At the carnival, there were quite a few you could talk to, and that was nice, but so many of them were the type of npc that has a proximity line to deliver when you get close enough, and too many of those didn't fire off at first. I had to keep approaching the various npcs to hear what they had to say.

I understood from the context of the quest why the carnival didn't have much of a Sanguine-esque vibe to it, but after the quest when we fixed the issue, nothing changed. I mean, the carnival didn't seem to become more like what Sanguine would host.
I also didn't like how we found a piece of information and then we couldn't act on that information. The quest treated me like I didn't pick up on the clue, and wouldn't know what to do with it if I did.

As for the coy goat: ok, I get it. It's fine, to an extent. But the whole gets old fast.

I did like the npc in charge of the Orgrim parade attraction. Dude was so weary and jaded by his job, I felt every sympathy for him.

Oh, I also felt like the player response options we got with the goat made no difference at all.

So, not one of the better quests on the island, and also I don't think it was enhanced by being another Sanguine quest.

Syldras wrote: »

@metheglyn I fully agree.

It was especially strange to me how we were told that after the end of the quest everything will be fixed and it would finally be the way it should, but then the quest npcs just disappeared and nothing really changed except for that.

And as for the lady, I'm wondering too who she was and what purpose that all served. Makes me wonder whether we might see her again somewhen in the future. But probably not.

As for what I did this evening...

This is my map status right now:



The only things I'm still missing are:
- 1 world boss (because I'm too lazy to solo it because I guess it would take a while; but unfortunately nobody ever showed up at that boss when I waited so far).
- 2 of these map symbol things (one is Corelanya Manor because I think I might really enjoy that one and I also heard it's a very long quest, so I want to save it for when I truly have enough time to play it in one go; the other one is Sunport - yes, I've not set a foot into the city yet).
- 1 wayshrine (again, Sunport).
- the whole main quest.

That looks a lot like my map status, except I have all the points of interest and wayshrines discovered and have one out of five on the main quest.

I can't solo world bosses, so those are very much a moment of opportunity for me, and why I still have one left to do.

Corelanya Manor is a long quest and I think you will enjoy it--best side quest on the map, as far as I'm concerned--and I look forward to hearing your observations on it.

Syldras wrote: »

What does this show me? The way the quests were placed this time does not really fit my playstyle. I don't know how most people play the game, but for my usual way of progressing, it doesn't work out.

Generally, I like to do the main quest in tandem with the side quests, as often they intersect. But this time, when I saw how far-flung the initial main quest objectives were (to find the missing people), it kind of bothered me. That's vague, I know, but I'm not sure how to explain what I didn't like about it. It seems like a different approach to the way they design the zone/quests, and maybe it's just a matter of adjusting to it.

Syldras wrote: »

I'm used to the Vestige being forced to play dumb (or feign ignorance), but this is somehow on another level; worse than being surprised about who the Ascendant Lord is or sending those people seeking refuge on Galen into the chapel that I already knew (from reading a nearby lorebook) will be nuked in a minute.

And seriously, I didn't even come across this while actively seeking for something, I just stumbled across it (and I'm certain I wasn't the only person who experienced that). Also, it's already in one of the trailer videos if you just pay attention to what happens in the video. I don't get how this is presented to us as the big mystery of this chapter?! I really hope there will more and it won't be all just about that, otherwise it will be horribly boring.

I think the story might be hampered by being split in two like it is. Before, when they did the chapter release and then the fourth quarter DLC, the stories were related, but each could stand on its own, and then you'd get a wrapper quest after completing both that tied them together. But this is the first half of one story, a "to be continued" style. It may be that this approach doesn't work as well.

A few impressions and ideas, based on the notes I took yesterday:

"Argonian village in the South" quest. There was a dream sequence where we're told to accompany an npc through it and only interfere when absolutely necessary, which fully sounded to me like the npc is leading and we're supposed to be following (and, if something happens, intervene or defend the npc). But the npc was, upon entering the sequence, nowhere to be found. So I just ran to the marker on the map (What would we do if this was TES3 when quest markers didn't exist yet? ). Interestingly, there was even a similar situation in that one Sanguine quest I mentioned yesterday, where we're told to follow someone and the person doesn't move either, but only follows us if we walk anywhere. Really feels like there might be some miscommunication between the dialogue writers and the ones who design the quest (as in: the concept of the quest got changed at some point but the dialogue writers might not have been informed that the texts also need to be adapted accordingly)?

Asking a favor at a shrine of Sithis. Slightly disappointing from what would have been possible, as we just go there, "talk" to the statue, and then the favor is granted and everybody is happy. Considering Sithis is a death deity, the Dread Father, the Final Destroyer and the Bringer of Ends, and the Argonian version of his statue is based on a real-world depiction of a death-related goddess (I know the original, not sure if it's allowed to post it here, because "religion"), and the Argonian culture is partially based on historical real world cultures who knew human sacrifices, this also seemed so "tame" again?! I mean, although we conveniently had 2 npcs with us anyway (and one annoyed me a little, so I would have immediately known which one to choose in case of a necessary sacrifice): Even if they didn't want us to sacrifice one of the Argonians (although we've sacrificed people in this game for less...) - why nothing in return at all for the favor? Felt like something was somehow missing at that point.

Continuing the main quest. So I've done the first step now and found certain missing people. Led to another strange dialogue (although maybe not as strange as the one with that confused Altmer that started all this chaos - no, I don't mean Vanny, I mean the one who welcomed us to this island by kindly answering our questions what the Worm Cult and the Stirk Fellowship are):
"So you see the huge wall behind me!"
"No actually I don't because we're indoors. Yes, it's called the Writhing Wall!"
"I went into this hut because..."
I mean, yes, for obscure reasons, there was also a bit of the Wall clipping into the wall of the hut, but is honestly seemed strange the way it was worded. Because there was no "huge wall" visible - that wording would have been more understandable while being outside and actually seeing the whole thing. So at first I thought the npc might originally have been outside and this might be another case where something was changed (in this case: the npc being moved into a building) but old dialogue remained - but then the npc fully acknowledged that we're inside a house...?!

While we're at it: Why do I, as a Dunmer, have to be confused and astonished about this Wall anyway? The similarities between it and the Ghostfence are more than obvious (although the Ghostfence of course did not involve unwilling people getting murdered and their souls recycled, but was formed out of the energy of the ancestral ghosts of Dunmer families from all Morrowind - basically just an evolvement of the protection by ancestors that was always been part of their culture; but still, how souls are used to form a wall is very similar here). I am fully aware of course that the big Ghostfence around Red Mountain wasn't built before the Third Era, but lore says that smaller of such structures have already existed earlier around Dunmer clan/family settlements. We don't know whether they already exist in ESO's time (we can't rule it out since we've not seen all of Morrowind yet), but what's more likely: Dunmer modeling their ghostfences after this horrible Wall later, or the other way round, some Dunmer Worm Cultist giving the Worm Cult an idea for this Wall based on something he knows from his homeland? I think the latter is more probable, and as such, it felt a little strange that my character had to act so clueless about it (I really hope we do actually see such a mini ghostfence around some village when we return to a Dunmer area on the map once more). Or maybe the whole thing already has had prototypes much earlier, already in Aldmer times, before the Velothi even split from the Aldmer, so the Worm Cult might have it from some Aldmer tradition and a Dunmer connection isn't necessary at all? We have no hints on that by lore so far, though.

I'll just leave this here for now.

This has been an interesting conversation to read. I have a few thoughts that are somewhat related that some of you may find amusing or interesting.

I came to ESO because it was an MMO, not for the lore. I had only played a bit of Skyrim previously.

I'm not sure if this theme comes up in other ways (in game), but I first heard "every villain is the hero of their own story" from Bastian. And I liked it being a sentiment, coming from him, as commentary, since it suited him well (in my opinion). But I would say that "every villain is the hero of their own story" is not even necessarily true. Some villains struggle with their motivations, some know what they are doing is "wrong" but feel they have no choice, while of course some have justification. If, as readers/players, we can relate to the justification, it makes the story even more interesting.

Personally, I'd say that any of those scenarios, for me, are more interesting than: "You never have to ask yourself if it’s right for you to stop them, because they want bad things for bad reasons" and being "irredeemable, power-mad megalomaniacs."

I'm not trying to tear apart the article or anything, but just also weighing in on the fact that I also agree that a one-dimensional, evil-for-the-sake-of-evil motivation is not very engaging. That said, the funniest thing to me about all of this is... I don't see the Worm Cult in this way. I just assume current and previous members of the Worm Cult all have various motivations and a range of "good-ness" or "bad-ness" because I kind of absorb all of the different parts of ESO when I play. For example....

For many years, a really important set for healing was The Worm's Raiment set. I primarily play a healer main, so, naturally, since this set has "Worm" in the title and everyone said "oh, I'll bring Worm," I both associate the set with the Worm Cult and therefore have a positive association with both. Especially when I had to farm pieces before stickerbook and I finally got the correct staff drops. Yea! Worm Cult Lightning Staff! Yea! Worm Ring with the correct trait! They can't be all bad, right, if this stuff is useful? :P

We also have The Worm Cult Style Motif. I think it is easier to get now because it drops during the Anniversary Event, but for a while, it was pretty rare. So not only did I have another positive association with obtaining the motif... Yea! I got another piece!... I also got excited when I got a duplicate piece that I could sell for $60K - $100K. Thank you, Worm Cult!

Therefore, I'm left kind of just generally associating the Worm Cultists with any of the other wide myriad of NPCs who will attack me in the open world but likely are nuanced and have their reasons for things if I come across them in a quest or even a lore book. I don't see them as the worst of the worst. They behave the same as bandits in a delve, or a frost atronarch in the open world, or even a bear in a cave... they all attack me. And they all have their reasons, same as I have mine for disrupting their day and slaughtering them, sometimes repeatedly!

Also, for me, Mannimarco was the least memorable part of the Five Companions story line. Molag Bal made an impression on me and I generally blame him. And (mild spoilers coming...) I always more remembered things like the dynamic between Sai Sahan and Lyris. The first time I experienced the lie/twist. I love a good redemption arc, and anytime Abnur Tharn did anything remotely good/helpful, I rejoiced. Deciding whether to invite Caldwell along or not. What I tend to remember is any kind of storyline tension, choice, angst, or character growth/development (good or bad). The Quiet Undead quest always stuck with me, for example.

Anyway, reflections from someone who has no idea how the lore "should" be but has various impressions based on traveling throughout Tamriel and running into many, many, many, many ill-intentioned antagonists.

To preface, I haven't read past page nine (don't have access to the new content and don't want to potentially read spoilers for the content) so I don't know what has been being discussed in them, but the site I mentioned in the past has a new update.

In it you can give an NPC food (which can be living creatures) and familiars (which are living creatures that can be 'pets' for your main pets, who are meant to be sapient creatures, humans don't exist on this site) to create thread which is then used to create apparel.

In the update they had to mention, for both the food and the familiars, that naturally, giving a living creature to this mechanic just means that they are taking a bit of fur or claws or whatever and not that the living creature is harmed.

For the familiars, I can sort of see it, but for food? Food that you can turn into 'points' to then feed your pets?

Then someone was saying that they headcanon one of the NPCs, not the new one, as someone who wouldn't be interested in relationships at all, but was slightly upset that other people were pairing up the new NPC with that other NPC. This wasn't site canon, site canon doesn't mention any relationships or orientations for the NPCs, this was what *other* people were headcanoning for the NPCs in question.

Both of these are yet further indications of how people are losing their ability to ignore things they dislike, as well as how things are being sanitized for the people who are uncomfortable with imagery they dislike (such as the harming of the food to turn it into thread). BTW, neither mechanic, the one to turn the food into points to feed the pets, nor the one to turn them into thread (and there is a third mechanic like the one to turn food into thread, but it turns them into something else) is graphic. You simply select the thing you want to change and click a button and that is all.

But, it had to be said, because people were getting upset over the idea of harming familiars for the third mechanic, that no pixel familiars were being harmed by the mechanic, and the new mechanic took it a step further and had to point out that no pixel food items nor pixel familiars were harmed in this new mechanic.

Sadly, some of these people are the exact type to play a game like ESO and then complain about the fighting or about the lore of the world because it doesn't fit their own world view or they don't like killing certain creatures or doing certain actions.

They are the ones who have the loudest voices and so are often the ones that get heard and listened to. I never mentioned the thing about familiars in the past (on that site, not this one) because I was fine with the idea of tossing them into a pot somewhere. They aren't real. But, for some people that wasn't enough, they had to have clarification from the site itself that no, we weren't actually tossing them into a pot, the NPC was just taking a bit of fur or claws from the familiar to use.

People are seemingly losing the ability to not only ignore things they dislike as I said earlier, but also the ability to be uncomfortable and move on with their day. They *have* to complain about how something made them uncomfortable, and sadly, that is why they often seem more prevalent than they are, because they *have* to post something, while the people who are uncomfortable but move on, or people who aren't uncomfortable at all, simply don't post to praise the mechanic or lore, they just accept it.

I think one way to combat it is to do what this thread is doing. Raise the issues with having everything sanitized and 'comfortable'. With being spoon fed.

To bring this back to ESO, I just recently started doing the West Weald quests and there was one that stuck out to me (going to use a spoiler tag for it just in case).

I think there were a couple of other quests in West Weald that allowed the vestige some degree of 'hey maybe you aren't brain damaged after all from all the deaths!' (And I haven't finished them all yet, been too worried about a sick cat to do much in one sitting)

peacenote wrote: »

Therefore, I'm left kind of just generally associating the Worm Cultists with any of the other wide myriad of NPCs who will attack me in the open world but likely are nuanced and have their reasons for things if I come across them in a quest or even a lore book. I don't see them as the worst of the worst. They behave the same as bandits in a delve, or a frost atronarch in the open world, or even a bear in a cave... they all attack me. And they all have their reasons, same as I have mine for disrupting their day and slaughtering them, sometimes repeatedly!

I like your reflections on the Worm Cult and your experience with them. I have some of the same ideas regarding the rank and file: they can't all be evil for evil's sake because not only does that not make any sense, it dilutes the world to a cartoonish level. I'd rather learn of nuanced motivations and reasons for world domination rather than just hear, "because evil!"

The only two enemies I love to hate are trolls (from a horrifying low-level encounter in Skyrim) and spriggans (from having been ambushed by them in the woods one too many times in the Morrowind single player game).

peacenote wrote: »

Also, for me, Mannimarco was the least memorable part of the Five Companions story line. Molag Bal made an impression on me and I generally blame him. And (mild spoilers coming...) I always more remembered things like the dynamic between Sai Sahan and Lyris. The first time I experienced the lie/twist. I love a good redemption arc, and anytime Abnur Tharn did anything remotely good/helpful, I rejoiced. Deciding whether to invite Caldwell along or not. What I tend to remember is any kind of storyline tension, choice, angst, or character growth/development (good or bad). The Quiet Undead quest always stuck with me, for example.

The Quiet Undead is a very well done, meaningful quest, and the type I'd like to see more of.

As for Mannimarco, his role in the main quest and the Five Companions story doesn't come across very well on the surface. He just seems to be a shouty megalomaniac that you're meant to want to defeat. It wasn't until I saw some flashbacks of his life on Artaeum that I thought: well, there's more to this guy than just mad power plans. And it wasn't until I started talking about him more here on the forums that I thought he actually can be a compelling character.

peacenote wrote: »

Anyway, reflections from someone who has no idea how the lore "should" be but has various impressions based on traveling throughout Tamriel and running into many, many, many, many ill-intentioned antagonists.

I'm definitely not a lore expert (that's Syldras!) but I do find it fun to learn about the details of it and see how it's portrayed in the game.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

To bring this back to ESO, I just recently started doing the West Weald quests and there was one that stuck out to me (going to use a spoiler tag for it just in case).

It was the quest Terror of the Weald about vampires.

In it, you eventually find a note that says this:

Maer,

I hope you ignored my letter and stayed away. If not, there's something you need to know.

I stowed our best vintage in the place where we used to put Old Desius when he got too tanked to walk home.

Get there quick and quiet and maybe you can sneak some out before your old friends drink the town dry.

Off to the Far Shores soon I think. I'll tell Tall Papa you said hello.

Tham

Apparently the vestige has fallen off a cliff about 10 too many times, because during the following dialogue the quest giver mentions survivors, and the vestige goes 'survivors? The note didn't mention survivors?' as the ONLY option to take.

Okay, hello vestige! We are talking about vampires. Why would vampires be interested in a 'vintage' of wine or ale or whatever? So, if they aren't interested in those, why would it matter if this best vintage was hidden? The 'Old friends drink the town dry' said to me that hey, whatever was hidden had to be something they would want to drink. Can we add 1 + 1 and come out with two? No? We cannot? *sigh* oh well

But it had to be spelled out that the note meant that the 'best vintage' was the remaining townsfolk, and there was no way for the vestige to show that he actually DOES have a brain and DOES use it, at least occasionally. No, he had to come across as someone who has to be lead around by the hand.

I think there were a couple of other quests in West Weald that allowed the vestige some degree of 'hey maybe you aren't brain damaged after all from all the deaths!' (And I haven't finished them all yet, been too worried about a sick cat to do much in one sitting)

Yes, there are many times when the implication of some written thing you found was clear, but you have no option to let the quest npc know you understand, instead you just have to ask the dummy question, and I really don't care for it.

More importantly, though, I hope your kitty is doing better!

metheglyn wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

To bring this back to ESO, I just recently started doing the West Weald quests and there was one that stuck out to me (going to use a spoiler tag for it just in case).

It was the quest Terror of the Weald about vampires.

In it, you eventually find a note that says this:

Maer,

I hope you ignored my letter and stayed away. If not, there's something you need to know.

I stowed our best vintage in the place where we used to put Old Desius when he got too tanked to walk home.

Get there quick and quiet and maybe you can sneak some out before your old friends drink the town dry.

Off to the Far Shores soon I think. I'll tell Tall Papa you said hello.

Tham

Apparently the vestige has fallen off a cliff about 10 too many times, because during the following dialogue the quest giver mentions survivors, and the vestige goes 'survivors? The note didn't mention survivors?' as the ONLY option to take.

Okay, hello vestige! We are talking about vampires. Why would vampires be interested in a 'vintage' of wine or ale or whatever? So, if they aren't interested in those, why would it matter if this best vintage was hidden? The 'Old friends drink the town dry' said to me that hey, whatever was hidden had to be something they would want to drink. Can we add 1 + 1 and come out with two? No? We cannot? *sigh* oh well

But it had to be spelled out that the note meant that the 'best vintage' was the remaining townsfolk, and there was no way for the vestige to show that he actually DOES have a brain and DOES use it, at least occasionally. No, he had to come across as someone who has to be lead around by the hand.

I think there were a couple of other quests in West Weald that allowed the vestige some degree of 'hey maybe you aren't brain damaged after all from all the deaths!' (And I haven't finished them all yet, been too worried about a sick cat to do much in one sitting)

Yes, there are many times when the implication of some written thing you found was clear, but you have no option to let the quest npc know you understand, instead you just have to ask the dummy question, and I really don't care for it.

More importantly, though, I hope your kitty is doing better!

He is, it was really touch and go for a while (he was really sick) but I visited him at the vet yesterday and he was squeaking at me and rubbing my hand as I was petting him. He still has a bit to go before he is fully back so he will be at the vet where they can be sure to give him his medicine. (two different antibiotics, one three times a day. He was a REALLY sick kitty)

Yeah, I don't mind having the option to chose a 'hey, I wasn't quite paying attention or this just flew over my head' but I would like the option to sound a bit smarter than my horse. (and who knows the horse might get more dialogue options :P)

There are times when I skim the notes/dialogue or I just don't catch something or make the connection, so those dialogue options are helpful.

Just like all those times when *surprise!* someone betrays you, and I am like, can't I at least warn someone or say 'I knew he was going to betray us' or at least NOT act surprised at something that *wasn't* a surprise. Like, I know you want to think the best of this person, but I found him in a corner cackling to himself while going over plans to take over the world, I think I can safely say he isn't on our side here. So can I at least say I don't trust him?

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

To bring this back to ESO, I just recently started doing the West Weald quests and there was one that stuck out to me (going to use a spoiler tag for it just in case).

It was the quest Terror of the Weald about vampires.

In it, you eventually find a note that says this:

Maer,

I hope you ignored my letter and stayed away. If not, there's something you need to know.

I stowed our best vintage in the place where we used to put Old Desius when he got too tanked to walk home.

Get there quick and quiet and maybe you can sneak some out before your old friends drink the town dry.

Off to the Far Shores soon I think. I'll tell Tall Papa you said hello.

Tham

Apparently the vestige has fallen off a cliff about 10 too many times, because during the following dialogue the quest giver mentions survivors, and the vestige goes 'survivors? The note didn't mention survivors?' as the ONLY option to take.

Okay, hello vestige! We are talking about vampires. Why would vampires be interested in a 'vintage' of wine or ale or whatever? So, if they aren't interested in those, why would it matter if this best vintage was hidden? The 'Old friends drink the town dry' said to me that hey, whatever was hidden had to be something they would want to drink. Can we add 1 + 1 and come out with two? No? We cannot? *sigh* oh well

But it had to be spelled out that the note meant that the 'best vintage' was the remaining townsfolk, and there was no way for the vestige to show that he actually DOES have a brain and DOES use it, at least occasionally. No, he had to come across as someone who has to be lead around by the hand.

I think there were a couple of other quests in West Weald that allowed the vestige some degree of 'hey maybe you aren't brain damaged after all from all the deaths!' (And I haven't finished them all yet, been too worried about a sick cat to do much in one sitting)

Yes, there are many times when the implication of some written thing you found was clear, but you have no option to let the quest npc know you understand, instead you just have to ask the dummy question, and I really don't care for it.

More importantly, though, I hope your kitty is doing better!

He is, it was really touch and go for a while (he was really sick) but I visited him at the vet yesterday and he was squeaking at me and rubbing my hand as I was petting him. He still has a bit to go before he is fully back so he will be at the vet where they can be sure to give him his medicine. (two different antibiotics, one three times a day. He was a REALLY sick kitty)

I am glad to hear he is on the mend!

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Yeah, I don't mind having the option to chose a 'hey, I wasn't quite paying attention or this just flew over my head' but I would like the option to sound a bit smarter than my horse. (and who knows the horse might get more dialogue options :P)

There are times when I skim the notes/dialogue or I just don't catch something or make the connection, so those dialogue options are helpful.

Just like all those times when *surprise!* someone betrays you, and I am like, can't I at least warn someone or say 'I knew he was going to betray us' or at least NOT act surprised at something that *wasn't* a surprise. Like, I know you want to think the best of this person, but I found him in a corner cackling to himself while going over plans to take over the world, I think I can safely say he isn't on our side here. So can I at least say I don't trust him?

I would love more dialogue options as well, the better to portray our characters the way we see them. What's interesting to me is that they have provided more options of that sort in some of the writing in Solstice, but then there are other cases where it seems there should be more than one way to respond, and yet we're stuck with a single response that doesn't show the Vestige at their best or brightest. (Avoiding specifics since you mentioned not having the content yet). I don't mean just the new player response options they introduced--there's at least one quest where you have several answer options to an npc question and they aren't tied to the new system.

So I just wonder: why do it for only some of the quests, and leave other quests with no options?

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Yeah, that is always a bit baffling to me and the only thing I can really think of is - different writers.

IE, having a team of writers where some will write some types of quests or specific quests and others will do the others could lead to this situation, because some of the writers will give options that they think might be more natural, while others could become so focused on the end goal (completion of the quest) that they don't give options. Or, they are more used to writing a typical story where they are in full control so they don't think that there is a player on the other end of the dialogue option that might want to not sound like someone who managed to escape from their caretaker and doesn't have a clue what is going on.

I could see part of it simply being time and resource constraints since each dialogue option, while the option itself doesn't have to be voiced, needs the responses to be voiced, which adds to the budget (haven't got a clue how much) and probably slows things down, especially if the voice actor is pretty popular and has other obligations.

But, it still sucks when you are stuck giving responses that make you cringe because you can't help but think that if the NPC were real, they would be looking at you with a look of pity and wondering how you managed to survive this long.

That description of the Vestige made me laugh.

You make some good points about different writers and budget, and of course we don't know how it all works internally. But I still find it odd that the main quest is the one that has the least options, whereas side quests often turn out better.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Yeah, that is always a bit baffling to me and the only thing I can really think of is - different writers.

IE, having a team of writers where some will write some types of quests or specific quests and others will do the others could lead to this situation, because some of the writers will give options that they think might be more natural, while others could become so focused on the end goal (completion of the quest) that they don't give options. Or, they are more used to writing a typical story where they are in full control so they don't think that there is a player on the other end of the dialogue option that might want to not sound like someone who managed to escape from their caretaker and doesn't have a clue what is going on.

I could see part of it simply being time and resource constraints since each dialogue option, while the option itself doesn't have to be voiced, needs the responses to be voiced, which adds to the budget (haven't got a clue how much) and probably slows things down, especially if the voice actor is pretty popular and has other obligations.

But, it still sucks when you are stuck giving responses that make you cringe because you can't help but think that if the NPC were real, they would be looking at you with a look of pity and wondering how you managed to survive this long.

That description of the Vestige made me laugh.

You make some good points about different writers and budget, and of course we don't know how it all works internally. But I still find it odd that the main quest is the one that has the least options, whereas side quests often turn out better.

I am glad!

It could be that the main quest was more rigid in where they wanted it to go, so they didn't feel like there could be a lot of options? Or it could be more budget constraints because of all the NPCs involved in the various main quests. Side quests typically have one or two NPCs you talk to and it would make sense to have options so maybe they can have more simply because it doesn't involve multiple voice actors who might have other commitments?

So, if there can be only one single option, then it does make sense, as much as we might not like it to, for it to be aimed at the lowest common denominator and spell things out.

I just can't really think of any other reason why they would give only one option, even if everything lead to the same place, for most of the quests, especially when there are things that the player is meant to 'figure out' themselves. It is sort of like in some quests where your follower NPC (not companion) will tell you when and where to do things 'Use X here!' 'Y is ready to be used, Use it friend!' like I somehow forgot since the last three times I have used it two seconds ago.

I think they do want people to thoroughly understand the main quest--why we're doing whatever it is we're doing and what the stakes are--but if you do pay attention, having it repeated so often just gets tedious.

I really dislike the follow along quest npc who narrates every step. I found Leramil to be the worst offender in this case and wished so much I could just ditch her and do the quest on my own. Now, any time a quest npc says they'll accompany me, I think, "Please don't."

The thing is, I usually do like the stories they're telling (some more than others); it's just the method that can be a bit clunky.

So, while I wasn't able to quest much now, I have finally entered Sunport! First thing I saw: A fake door to the left. Then: A fake door to the right. Then: There's someone! Let's talk! But the npc shows no reaction upon "activating", and neither any of the others in the vicinity. Is that bugged? Do they have some random greeting in English? Because normally, they would say something at least, but in my translation, they're complete silent, which is something I never experienced anywhere in this game before. And I had been so naive, since the first time that happened was in that Argonian village, that I wondered whether it might be on purpose and it's just culturally different, they just don't talk to strangers... Generally, this is not the best impression when entering a city, and especially if this might be the first impression of the whole chapter (since other people might enter the city immediately upon arriving and not after a whole week of questing in the wilds like me). Architecture-wise I do like it, a lot even, from what I've seen so far, but the many non-interactible doors and npcs don't leave a good impression.

Then I walked on... more closed doors... there's a sitting Altmer reading a book, and he talks! Tells me he's a scholar and thinks about exchanging knowledge with the Sapiarch College on Summerset. Sounds normal to me, they're scholars, after all, they cooperate of course. But the only thing I can say then is "You seem very interested in Summerset and Tamriel"?! Like, why would he not, he's a scholar and an Altmer of all things?!

Then I came across the Dibella priestess, the Orc, and she tells me she wants to suggest to the regent that she should allow them to paint murals all over the city that praise Dibella... Keep in mind they are not from Solstice, but missionaries, and Solstice has a different religion... Of course, my character can't make any statement about what he thinks of this.

Then I came across an Argonian who called the newcomers precious gifts (bet she hasn't met the Dibella cultists yet); made my way into the tavern, see that it's rather sparsely decorated (especially for what we know of Altmer habits), and met a Maormer with a bugged face that keeps twitching all the time.

After that I went to Azah to finally begin the main quest and ask weird questions again (yes, I did; I had to).

But what's almost more interesting is the account Azah gives me on the "shared history" the Ra Gada had with House Corelanya. Let me remind you first who originally lived on Hammerfell: the Aldmer/Altmer, the Dwemer, a few Nedes, and goblins. The Ra Gada arrived later in what they called "warrior waves", to colonize. Most of the Ra Gada were basically pirates who made their living raiding other people's cities. And it wasn't different here: The goblins were slaughtered first, and after that they attacked Altmer settlements and sacked them.

Now what does Azah tell us (Let me quote directly from UESP since the wording is important)?
"Long ago, the High Elves ruled Hammerfell. When my ancestors came to Tamriel, they found no welcome from the Corelanyas. Unable to defeat the Ra Gada in open battle, the Elves called upon dark powers." - they "found no welcome", well, why might that be, considering the were invasors who raided Altmer cities?
"Necromancy most vile. The Corelanyas turned my ancestors' own dead against them. Only the creation of the sacred Ansei Wards put a stop to the carnage. The Ra Gada finally prevailed and drove the Corelanyas from Hammerfell." - I guess the Altmer should be happy the invasors "stopped the carnage" by sacking their cities and displacing them from their homeland?

Now I do think that characters are allowed to be biased - not only allowed, in a believable fictional world, that's something normal that people believe different things, that some are mistaken, that propaganda exists and therefore also people who believe the propaganda. Also, who knows what Azah had been told when he was raised.

The only thing I'm missing here again is the ability for my character to react on such things. Also I somehow wonder if wording the dialogue like this was truly necessary (they could have easily used more neutral wording - just saying that the Ra Gada colonized Hammerfell and conquered the Altmer cities would have been enough info, especially if the main statement is that there had been a conflict in the past), because honestly, it leaves a negative impression to my character who is a Dunmer, and I don't want to imagine how that might sound to an Altmer player character. It doesn't really make you want to interact further, does it?

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Honestly NPCs that follow you have always been my personal least favorite. I prefer fed ex quests to those.

I was playing Red Faction one time and had an NPC following me. I went into some tunnels with some enemies, and saw an enemy come running from in front of me. One shot and he was down. I was so proud. Until the game ended, because it wasn't an enemy, but rather the follower who had found a loop in the tunnels and ran around and came out ahead of me. I was not happy.

Then there are all the NPCs who just HAVE to stand inbetween me and what I am aiming at. This wasn't a follower, but in Oblivion, I was in Kvatch and I aimed a perfect fireball at an enemy, only for an idiot guard come between us and get himself fried (and me on Cyrodiil's top 10 most wanted list apparently).

I think that is one of the issues is that the stories they tell are usually pretty interesting and something I would be interested in reading, but the dialogue options just make it so I lose interest, because, even if I weren't the protagonist of this particular story, the options would make me wonder about the protagonist of the story. The type of one that has you yelling at your book or TV saying 'you can't be THAT dumb!'

I may have accidentally killed a follower or two (or three or four) in Skyrim because they ran in front of the draugr I had lined up a perfect shot on right as the arrow landed. Depending on the follower and the time since my last save, it could be cause for a reload. Otherwise...well, nice knowing you, and you were a fine housecarl while it lasted.

It really is the dialogue options that are turning me off the main quest. I actually stopped playing last night after being irritated by them one too many times. I understand they're limited as to how many dialogue options can be presented and every statement isn't going to have something for everyone's character, but when the only thing I can ask someone is a question about something we already covered, I get annoyed.

Syldras wrote: »

So, while I wasn't able to quest much now, I have finally entered Sunport! First thing I saw: A fake door to the left. Then: A fake door to the right. Then: There's someone! Let's talk! But the npc shows no reaction upon "activating", and neither any of the others in the vicinity. Is that bugged? Do they have some random greeting in English?

No, there are quite a few npcs that you cannot interact with and they have no greeting and don't seem to even talk to each other. I found it odd, too, and thought it might be bugged at first. But I guess they all took a vow of silence.

Syldras wrote: »

The only thing I'm missing here again is the ability for my character to react on such things. Also I somehow wonder if wording the dialogue like this was truly necessary (they could have easily used more neutral wording - just saying that the Ra Gada colonized Hammerfell and conquered the Altmer cities would have been enough info, especially if the main statement is that there had been a conflict in the past), because honestly, it leaves a negative impression to my character who is a Dunmer, and I don't want to imagine how that might sound to an Altmer player character. It doesn't really make you want to interact further, does it?

As an Altmer player character, it made me fairly annoyed with him and I wanted to set him straight on a few facts. Or maybe at least tell him the elves of Sunport probably wouldn't appreciate his view of history, so if he wants their help, maybe he shouldn't talk in such terms about his ancestors' colonizing ways.

In general, I'm finding dialogue options in the main quest to be especially bad when it comes to player response.

Heren wrote: »

But I do agree that, sometime, when this game want to avoid sensible topic, it can be quite insensible - like a reguard telling an elf that kind of things ! Dialogue options based on the origine of the played character would be nice, but it would also be a lot of work I guess. Still, at some point, you have to make a decision - put more ressources in constant reminders, or in other things, like better immersion.

I really wish they would make the immersion decision, especially when it comes to recognizing the player character's race. They did used to do this to some extent, but there still have been plenty of instances of Altmer talking to my Altmer as if he wouldn't know anything about Altmer customs and ways.

metheglyn wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Honestly NPCs that follow you have always been my personal least favorite. I prefer fed ex quests to those.

I was playing Red Faction one time and had an NPC following me. I went into some tunnels with some enemies, and saw an enemy come running from in front of me. One shot and he was down. I was so proud. Until the game ended, because it wasn't an enemy, but rather the follower who had found a loop in the tunnels and ran around and came out ahead of me. I was not happy.

Then there are all the NPCs who just HAVE to stand inbetween me and what I am aiming at. This wasn't a follower, but in Oblivion, I was in Kvatch and I aimed a perfect fireball at an enemy, only for an idiot guard come between us and get himself fried (and me on Cyrodiil's top 10 most wanted list apparently).

I think that is one of the issues is that the stories they tell are usually pretty interesting and something I would be interested in reading, but the dialogue options just make it so I lose interest, because, even if I weren't the protagonist of this particular story, the options would make me wonder about the protagonist of the story. The type of one that has you yelling at your book or TV saying 'you can't be THAT dumb!'

I may have accidentally killed a follower or two (or three or four) in Skyrim because they ran in front of the draugr I had lined up a perfect shot on right as the arrow landed. Depending on the follower and the time since my last save, it could be cause for a reload. Otherwise...well, nice knowing you, and you were a fine housecarl while it lasted.

It really is the dialogue options that are turning me off the main quest. I actually stopped playing last night after being irritated by them one too many times. I understand they're limited as to how many dialogue options can be presented and every statement isn't going to have something for everyone's character, but when the only thing I can ask someone is a question about something we already covered, I get annoyed.

I always play with unkillable followers in any ES game I can. For that very reason. I do remember one funny interaction between me and Vilkas. I was in a cave where I had to remain hidden and eavesdrop on someone.

All of a sudden I was pushed forward into a wall, and I turned around, and I then heard an 'oooh' and Vilkas suddenly backed off. I know it was the AI of the follower mod I have that made him do that, but I can only imagine what my face must have looked like when I turned around to make Vilkas immediately back out of reach

The little I read about it, yeah, I can understand. I also hate it when something is presented so biased and you can't react to it at all.

Sure, I can see NPCs being biased, especially with what they were raised with, but just having to sit there and take it? No thanks.

It reminds me of a story I recently read (not related to ESO at all, just something I read). The author was very good. But, in the story, humans were obviously the bad guys. They had their favorite 'race', non-humans, and pretty much everything about their society was described as perfect and caring and wonderful, while all the human societies were flawed. Without going into too much detail, the non-human society didn't use prisons, but rather focused on rehabilitation, except in the most severe of cases, while the human society tossed even minor offenders into a prison and forgot about them. The non-human society didn't make a spectacle of the trials of said offenders, while the human society did. The non-human society took care of ALL its members ,while the human societies had people slip through the cracks.

This was a fanfiction, so the villains had background in the series, but there was a line in the story about how, in the non-human society, when their society fails enough to 'force' people to turn to a life of crime, they try to address that and fix it.

Now, it might have worked if we had been talking about a gang of thieves, but these people were pretty much all mass murderers whose biggest ideal was being able to live how they wanted without worrying about whether it hurt other people. Yet, these were supposed to be redeemable victims who had society fail them.

Basically everytime one of these was brought up, the protagonist, a human, immediately agreed that the non-human society was so much better than human, and while the humans weren't portrayed as the villains in the story, by the end it seemed as if that was the general idea, that humans WERE the true villains (they even had the humans going into the non-human society to kidnap members for power, but as far as I could tell, the non-humans never struck back at the humans. Because they were naturally non-violent, though they would fight to protect their own...) of the story.

Reading what you and Syldras and Heren wrote, it is reminding me very strongly of that, where either you have to agree with biased recounting of history, or one history is obviously meant to be the 'correct' one, without being able to present your side.

Which, to me, is yet another simplification, because, at least in my opinion, no one society is 'perfect'. There are always ways that one society can be made better, and yet, I often see stories where one society is obviously the favored one, while other societies always fall short. When compared side by side it looks like some of those product comparisons where one product has all red X's and the favored product (typically the one that paid for the comparison) has all green Checks.

It is yet another example of black and white thinking. Those who are supposed to be heroes are always 'good' and everything about them is in the 'good category' and they aren't allowed flaws. While the ones who aren't the heroes, even if they aren't the villains, are often riddled with flaws, and any individual of that category who doesn't fall within that, is often depicted as the exception and somehow better than the rest of their category.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It really is the dialogue options that are turning me off the main quest. I actually stopped playing last night after being irritated by them one too many times. I understand they're limited as to how many dialogue options can be presented and every statement isn't going to have something for everyone's character, but when the only thing I can ask someone is a question about something we already covered, I get annoyed.

That doesn't sound good... I'll continue questing later today, maybe a bit slower than usual, and of course I'll post here if something grabs my attention.

There are several points in the second and third stages of the main quest I wanted to hear your opinion on--some of which relates to what we talked about in the Wormblood thread.

Oh, I did find that bantam guar quest. That was fun! Lighthearted, but also fit with the world. The dialogue with the npc also contained a significant (or so it seemed to me) clue presented quite off-handedly. It fit with the character, though, so their manner of delivery didn't bother me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

No, there are quite a few npcs that you cannot interact with and they have no greeting and don't seem to even talk to each other. I found it odd, too, and thought it might be bugged at first. But I guess they all took a vow of silence.

Strange. Now I really wonder whether it's a bug, something they could not finish on time, or something they decided wasn't necessary (which I would disagree with - it had always been a big part of the atmosphere of a place). Together with the maps getting smaller, not having any incursions on the new map, no new ToT deck and no new companions as a part of a new story release, it doesn't look good to me.

Yes, even if the npcs have only one line, it can still add to the overall atmosphere and at least gives the impression they are beings who inhabit the world and have their own lives, rather than just being easy targets for pickpocketing and blade of woe endeavors. I came across one npc today who was hammering at a locked door. "What's going on here?" I wondered, but couldn't interact with the npc to find out. I could only assume they had locked themselves out of the house and were trying to get someone to let them in, but someone didn't want to because the house is small and they were enjoying the privacy of being the only one inside.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As an Altmer player character, it made me fairly annoyed with him and I wanted to set him straight on a few facts. Or maybe at least tell him the elves of Sunport probably wouldn't appreciate his view of history, so if he wants their help, maybe he shouldn't talk in such terms about his ancestors' colonizing ways.

What I find especially strange this time is that I've come across several quest givers now who are absolutely not likeable at all, which then leads to the question why I would work with them. It's astonishing as I'd think that writers know that you can't make a questgiver too off-putting because that limits the player's interest to help that person.

I still think the best example for that problem are the Dibella worshippers/cultists (my Dunmer has a clear opinion on what would be the better term...) who actually almost seem obsessive with their ways, despite their friendly and mild wording? The quest was weird, but then having one of them not being able to understand why the locals don't want their city "adorned" with Dibella murals all over... Weird. Just weird. And again, I think that delusional, brainwashed or over-zealous npcs have their place in a world, but the player having to play along with that - that feels strange.

I did so badly want to tell the Dibella worshippers that they didn't seem any different to me than cultists. A couple of the followers were easier to talk to than the quest giver, or at least seemed to have more sense to them. (Not the orc).

I have had to stop and think of motivations for my character to assist some of these npcs, though. Sometimes I feel like the only reason he would take these quests is because Bastian is reminding him to think of the bigger picture (there's very much a 'gathering of forces' vibe in Solstice). And Bastian's motivation is easy enough, since one of his lines is: Let's go find someone to help...and maybe get paid for it.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Reading what you and Syldras and Heren wrote, it is reminding me very strongly of that, where either you have to agree with biased recounting of history, or one history is obviously meant to be the 'correct' one, without being able to present your side.

Which, to me, is yet another simplification, because, at least in my opinion, no one society is 'perfect'. There are always ways that one society can be made better, and yet, I often see stories where one society is obviously the favored one, while other societies always fall short. When compared side by side it looks like some of those product comparisons where one product has all red X's and the favored product (typically the one that paid for the comparison) has all green Checks.

It is yet another example of black and white thinking. Those who are supposed to be heroes are always 'good' and everything about them is in the 'good category' and they aren't allowed flaws. While the ones who aren't the heroes, even if they aren't the villains, are often riddled with flaws, and any individual of that category who doesn't fall within that, is often depicted as the exception and somehow better than the rest of their category.

It comes down to what we were all discussing earlier in the thread: lack of subtlety, nuance, and complexity. Why it's going this way can be debated (and you and Syldras had some really good thoughts on the matter) but it seems to be the going thing, at least in ESO.