The writing for the upcoming story content - some thoughts on the latest news article

Syldras

Elsonso wrote: »

Honestly? I find the "you can't use this door right now" doors to be as annoying as the poor, or lack of, dialog choices.

I do agree. But if I'd have the choice between a locked door or finding something that spoils an important part of the main quest despite not having even started it yet, I'd rather go for the locked door. Although the most reasonable decision, if thinking more about it, would probably just not having the "item" that spoils the surprise appear before the quest reaches that point.

metheglyn wrote: »

I also wondered how many enemies he's racked up in his time. Or maybe his definition of 'enemy' is a lot looser than ours? You know, there was that one dialogue option to call him an arrogant twit: maybe everyone who chose that is on his enemies list now.

That means as soon as he's free, he'll loiter around my tower now, waiting for me to sack him?

metheglyn wrote: »

Is there a way an individual can protect themselves from unexpected Telvanni translocation? Just a hypothetical question, of course.

Just be uninteresting. I'd never waste my time for uninteresting people. Well, unless I need an "assistant" for an important experiment, of course. Under some circumstances, anyone would be sufficient. For science!

metheglyn wrote: »

What if it turns out it's a convenient lie that Gabrielle told herself, because otherwise she couldn't reconcile The Great Mage being so easily captured?

That's an interesting idea, and actually I wouldn't find it bad to see a character actually getting in a more and more fragile mental state over something that happened. It's just that she didn't make that impression, and during the whole storyline, so far, she seemed rather composed. Sad, slightly worried, but composed.

metheglyn wrote: »

I took that as him hedging his bets. He doesn't have deep faith or belief in any of them, and he just goes to every shrine to cover all the bases. I wanted to tell him, "I don't think that'll work," but then again, I don't know how responsive the divines tend to be. Does his "all the shrines" even include the ones to the daedra?

I'd think so.

metheglyn wrote: »

There was no Sithis shrine or anything like that in the chapel, was there?

No. Now I wanted to write that maybe for their belief a simple shrine wouldn't be sufficient and that other factors like location, building structure, and other symbolic aspects might be important (ancient temples in the real world did sometimes take natural factors in consideration when choosing a location - the proximity of water, or the alignment to mountains, or architectural details that correspond with special astronomical phenomena, and much more), but then I remembered that there are small Argonian shrines we can even build as furnishings, including "kitchen shrines" that would probably be just placed in private dwellings, so maybe indeed the surroundings don't play such a big role.

metheglyn wrote: »

Well...I guess this is what we get when we tell ZOS we want the ability to be able to respond to npc flirting. It's like the Lady at the Sanguine Carnival playing corrupt a wish. Still waiting for the "knock it off" option....

I'm especially sad that cheap jokes seem to be more important than telling a good story. At least I get that impression here.

And yes, of course, if a "companion romance" system would look like that - I'll gladly say "No, thank you!"... But it's sad that we'd be stuck with that then, without having the chance to get a better one, once implemented.

I honestly don't get it. The dialogues often seem so "unnatural"? Not like normal people would talk or think in a situation? It's strange. The writers are human beings, they must be able to understand human sentiments and interactions, they must have experience from real life, so why are the dialogues often so weird in game?

metheglyn wrote: »

The Worm Cult have camps all over the island--just head to one of those, do your best not to kill everyone on sight, and see if they'll have you!

Thanks, I'll give it a try! The Planemeld can't be any worse than what we have now.

metheglyn wrote: »

I forgot to mention this in my last post: you only got two dialogue options here? Because I had three. I had the neutral one, a lighter, sort of quippy one, and then the flirty one. (I also had three in that first flirty situation with this npc).
In my case, I chose the lighter one, which went something like, "Guess we'll just have to invite ourselves." (It followed off of him saying the cultists didn't invite him to play a game). I thought that fit, since my character has developed a mostly teasing relationship with this npc over the years.

In the first situation, I had three (neutral, funny, flirty), I chose the neutral one. Now I saw only two (neutral, flirty). Chose the neutral one once more, got the same reply as you.

In my case it doesn't fit at all, I can't stand him, I left him in that burning house or whatever it was when we had the choice in one of the Dominion quests, only to be disappointed that he still survived. Not sure if he's different in the English translation, but to me he's not any less pompous than Vanny (but since he's "handsome" and "flirty", people seem to be okay with it, I guess), except he thinks he's the most charming and most handsome, the wittiest too, of course, cheats on women (like we see in his Elsweyr quest) and abandons his children (at least it's implied in the flavor text here). So in that regard, he falls in the same category as Jakarn for me. Both should be taken to the vet to get the snip.

I found it rather annoying, too, to get a "flirty" option once more, despite having shown no interest the first time. So indeed no way to stop it completely in case we're truly not interested in a character.

Also strange of course, that it all seems so arbitrary again. But we already noticed that characters "flirting" with us also seem to just yell some innuendo at us, without having anything meaningful to it. This now feels exactly the same to me, just that we can be the one pestering npcs now (and they'll probably always react positively, of course).

Oh, and since the news article thing that started this thread talked about the Worm Cult being "hateable": It's interesting I don't hate a single Worm Cultist, but there are "fan favorites" I truly despise. They're not "fun to hate", though, but just annoying.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also wondered how many enemies he's racked up in his time. Or maybe his definition of 'enemy' is a lot looser than ours? You know, there was that one dialogue option to call him an arrogant twit: maybe everyone who chose that is on his enemies list now.

That means as soon as he's free, he'll loiter around my tower now, waiting for me to sack him?

Most likely! At least it'll save you some time tracking him down.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Is there a way an individual can protect themselves from unexpected Telvanni translocation? Just a hypothetical question, of course.

Just be uninteresting. I'd never waste my time for uninteresting people. Well, unless I need an "assistant" for an important experiment, of course. Under some circumstances, anyone would be sufficient. For science!

I see. So, really, no one is safe, because something tells me you conduct a lot of "important" experiments.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What if it turns out it's a convenient lie that Gabrielle told herself, because otherwise she couldn't reconcile The Great Mage being so easily captured?

That's an interesting idea, and actually I wouldn't find it bad to see a character actually getting in a more and more fragile mental state over something that happened. It's just that she didn't make that impression, and during the whole storyline, so far, she seemed rather composed. Sad, slightly worried, but composed.

As much as I'd like it to be the case that she invented the idea to save herself some emotional distress, I know it's the least likely scenario. She does come across as very composed at all times, even when talking about someone she's meant to care a lot about. I think it fits her character overall.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

There was no Sithis shrine or anything like that in the chapel, was there?

No. Now I wanted to write that maybe for their belief a simple shrine wouldn't be sufficient and that other factors like location, building structure, and other symbolic aspects might be important (ancient temples in the real world did sometimes take natural factors in consideration when choosing a location - the proximity of water, or the alignment to mountains, or architectural details that correspond with special astronomical phenomena, and much more), but then I remembered that there are small Argonian shrines we can even build as furnishings, including "kitchen shrines" that would probably be just placed in private dwellings, so maybe indeed the surroundings don't play such a big role.

I was also wondering how "underground" Sithis worship is meant to be. Do you see these smaller house shrines anywhere in the world? I don't think I have, but I also never really looked for them. Usually when a story involves a Sithis shrine it's in a fairly hidden location.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well...I guess this is what we get when we tell ZOS we want the ability to be able to respond to npc flirting. It's like the Lady at the Sanguine Carnival playing corrupt a wish. Still waiting for the "knock it off" option....

I'm especially sad that cheap jokes seem to be more important than telling a good story. At least I get that impression here.

And yes, of course, if a "companion romance" system would look like that - I'll gladly say "No, thank you!"... But it's sad that we'd be stuck with that then, without having the chance to get a better one, once implemented.

I honestly don't get it. The dialogues often seem so "unnatural"? Not like normal people would talk or think in a situation? It's strange. The writers are human beings, they must be able to understand human sentiments and interactions, they must have experience from real life, so why are the dialogues often so weird in game?

I've often wondered why the dialogues are so stilted at times, strange at others, or just the wrong tone for certain situations. They're mostly built to convey plot information or exposition, it seems to me, and that hampers any dialogue anywhere. I think it could be more difficult to write branching dialogue options in keeping with the overall tone--trying to balance giving players a variety of ways to react while keeping the npc in character with the overarching story. Though I do enjoy the voice acting in this game, having all the lines fully voiced must curtail how in-depth the conversations can get, from a time and expense perspective if nothing else.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I forgot to mention this in my last post: you only got two dialogue options here? Because I had three. I had the neutral one, a lighter, sort of quippy one, and then the flirty one. (I also had three in that first flirty situation with this npc).
In my case, I chose the lighter one, which went something like, "Guess we'll just have to invite ourselves." (It followed off of him saying the cultists didn't invite him to play a game). I thought that fit, since my character has developed a mostly teasing relationship with this npc over the years.

In the first situation, I had three (neutral, funny, flirty), I chose the neutral one. Now I saw only two (neutral, flirty). Chose the neutral one once more, got the same reply as you.

In my case it doesn't fit at all, I can't stand him, I left him in that burning house or whatever it was when we had the choice in one of the Dominion quests, only to be disappointed that he still survived. Not sure if he's different in the English translation, but to me he's not any less pompous than Vanny (but since he's "handsome" and "flirty", people seem to be okay with it, I guess), except he thinks he's the most charming and most handsome, the wittiest too, of course, cheats on women (like we see in his Elsweyr quest) and abandons his children (at least it's implied in the flavor text here). So in that regard, he falls in the same category as Jakarn for me. Both should be taken to the vet to get the snip.

I think we will never agree on Raz. I like him as a friendly, teasing associate. He never came across to me as pompous, more like exaggerated boasting, which can get old, but I think he is a good mix of casual and serious. I don't take all his boasts seriously, for example, and I don't think I'm meant to, but as an agent for Ayrenn, he does a good job.

I didn't think those cubs were meant to imply they're his children; the flavor text even states they are pets. I always thought it was that admirers gave him lookalike kittens as gifts, and he's not the type to take good care of pets.

However, even though I like him, I do think he is over-used. I'm not sure why he was chosen as the Aldmeri Dominion representative, since it would have seemed like more of a job for someone like Battlereeve Urcelmo. (Raz is a spy, after all. The Pact didn't send Naryu and the Covenant didn't send Copper Dariah). I wouldn't have minded seeing Indaneir again, but considering the last time the Dominion sent the Silvenar on an important mission he was killed, maybe they didn't want to risk it.

Syldras wrote: »

I found it rather annoying, too, to get a "flirty" option once more, despite having shown no interest the first time. So indeed no way to stop it completely in case we're truly not interested in a character.

Also strange of course, that it all seems so arbitrary again. But we already noticed that characters "flirting" with us also seem to just yell some innuendo at us, without having anything meaningful to it. This now feels exactly the same to me, just that we can be the one pestering npcs now (and they'll probably always react positively, of course).

Yes, it would be nice if you didn't choose the 'flirty' option the first time, it didn't show up the second. I don't like the idea that to "fix" the flirtatious npc issue, they just make us the flirty instigators. That isn't what I wanted. But this is the first foray into this new system, so perhaps the use of it will improve over time.

Syldras wrote: »

Oh, and since the news article thing that started this thread talked about the Worm Cult being "hateable": It's interesting I don't hate a single Worm Cultist, but there are "fan favorites" I truly despise. They're not "fun to hate", though, but just annoying.

You can't think of a single cultist to hate? Not even one?

Fan favorites for sure are a mixed bag.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

I see. So, really, no one is safe, because something tells me you conduct a lot of "important" experiments.

Of course. What else would I do all day? I'm not The Great Mage who spends all his time either sitting around doing nothing or waiting to get kidnapped.

metheglyn wrote: »

I was also wondering how "underground" Sithis worship is meant to be. Do you see these smaller house shrines anywhere in the world? I don't think I have, but I also never really looked for them. Usually when a story involves a Sithis shrine it's in a fairly hidden location.

I don't know if we saw them in Murkmire, but I always considered Sithis a normal part of Argonian culture. Nothing that even needs to be hidden.

metheglyn wrote: »

I've often wondered why the dialogues are so stilted at times, strange at others, or just the wrong tone for certain situations. They're mostly built to convey plot information or exposition, it seems to me, and that hampers any dialogue anywhere. I think it could be more difficult to write branching dialogue options in keeping with the overall tone--trying to balance giving players a variety of ways to react while keeping the npc in character with the overarching story.

I think the two most tone-deaf dialogue options I came across so far were that situation in the prologue where we can make some funny joke after a certain death - or what was it? I only remember I found it completely absurd. And now this random flirting in that situation. It just doesn't make any sense to me, unless someone does not take the story seriously and just uses every occasion to throw some silly "joke" in.

If this is the future for this game, I don't think I will enjoy it anymore. I'll still give it a chance, but the direction I see is more concerning than ever to me. Because there's a difference between having the Vestige act dumb and having endless repetitions - that was annoying and sometimes maybe not quite elegant in writing, but I never got the impression that they might actually not be taking the stories seriously at all. This has changed now.

metheglyn wrote: »

I didn't think those cubs were meant to imply they're his children; the flavor text even states they are pets. I always thought it was that admirers gave him lookalike kittens as gifts, and he's not the type to take good care of pets.

I think the "Sweet young things like to give this one kittens as keepsakes" part is meant as innuendo, and from my point of view, it's weird, no matter what the truth about those cubs is. It certainly didn't help me like this character more.

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, it would be nice if you didn't choose the 'flirty' option the first time, it didn't show up the second. I don't like the idea that to "fix" the flirtatious npc issue, they just make us the flirty instigators. That isn't what I wanted. But this is the first foray into this new system, so perhaps the use of it will improve over time.

We can't even say for sure whether this has really "fixed" the old issue, or whether they added it as an extra and we'll still get pestered by certain npcs (and then probably still repeatedly, as saying no, even if we have the option now, does not seem to end it, but the dialogue would probably continue just the same).

metheglyn wrote: »

You can't think of a single cultist to hate? Not even one?

Mannimarco might have plunged a dagger into me at some point, but at least he didn't slobber at me and yell "Hey good-looking!" while doing it.

metheglyn wrote: »

Fan favorites for sure are a mixed bag.

I dislike how they act like everyone just has to love them. Also, while they might look different, character-wise most of them are quite similar.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I see. So, really, no one is safe, because something tells me you conduct a lot of "important" experiments.

Of course. What else would I do all day? I'm not The Great Mage who spends all his time either sitting around doing nothing or waiting to get kidnapped.

Fair point. Although maybe you should give the old "getting kidnapped on purpose to learn enemy plans" a try. You might find you liked it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I've often wondered why the dialogues are so stilted at times, strange at others, or just the wrong tone for certain situations. They're mostly built to convey plot information or exposition, it seems to me, and that hampers any dialogue anywhere. I think it could be more difficult to write branching dialogue options in keeping with the overall tone--trying to balance giving players a variety of ways to react while keeping the npc in character with the overarching story.

I think the two most tone-deaf dialogue options I came across so far were that situation in the prologue where we can make some funny joke after a certain death - or what was it? I only remember I found it completely absurd. And now this random flirting in that situation. It just doesn't make any sense to me, unless someone does not take the story seriously and just uses every occasion to throw some silly "joke" in.

If this is the future for this game, I don't think I will enjoy it anymore. I'll still give it a chance, but the direction I see is more concerning than ever to me. Because there's a difference between having the Vestige act dumb and having endless repetitions - that was annoying and sometimes maybe not quite elegant in writing, but I never got the impression that they might actually not be taking the stories seriously at all. This has changed now.

While I think the balance of humor and serious is off, I don't suspect them of not taking the story seriously. Some of the player response options have been tone-deaf or just outright strange, but I'm willing to give them time to get this new system working better.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I didn't think those cubs were meant to imply they're his children; the flavor text even states they are pets. I always thought it was that admirers gave him lookalike kittens as gifts, and he's not the type to take good care of pets.

I think the "Sweet young things like to give this one kittens as keepsakes" part is meant as innuendo, and from my point of view, it's weird, no matter what the truth about those cubs is. It certainly didn't help me like this character more.

It is weird; I didn't mean to imply I thought it was all grand. Raz is definitely a slutty dude who deserves a personal comeuppance or reckoning for that part of his character. But my character knows him best as a loyal fellow agent who wants the Dominion to succeed and thrive, and that's the basis of their relationship. And, for all his faults (and he has plenty), at least he's never flirted with my character.

Syldras wrote: »

Mannimarco might have plunged a dagger into me at some point, but at least he didn't slobber at me and yell "Hey good-looking!" while doing it.

Lol...now I'm imagining that happening in the cinematic where he knifes us.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Fan favorites for sure are a mixed bag.

I dislike how they act like everyone just has to love them. Also, while they might look different, character-wise most of them are quite similar.

Yeah, the marketing of them often doesn't resonate with me, and I do think they are over-used.

Heren

Varana wrote: »

- "Barbarian invasion" vs "migration period": That's just hard to portray in TES. On earth, in many cases you won't be able to tell invaders and natives physically apart, they do mix easily, and it's all muddled after a few generations. On Nirn, you have clear-cut races that will produce offspring that clearly belongs to one of them, and who will be physically very distinct. It's a binary setting, except for past examples like Bretons who have fossilised into a distinctive race themselves and are a lore oddity, not a normal occurrence. Mimicking real-world history is almost impossible there.

Yes I totaly agree that fantasy worlds with very distinct races are another obstacle in the way of mixity, but I don't really think it's an absolute argument. The ability to mix easily through reproduction ( and more similar physical settings ) don't necessarily lead to mixity, there is other things to considers.

My point though was more, it's hard to entirely remove and replace a native race ( don't try it at home please ). Not necessarily because native and newcomers will ultimately mingled, but just because it is ultimately a very complicated thing. Like,take orcish stronghold - no-one like orcs, but it's just so damn hard to remove them that nords, bosmers, dunmers, just don't really try to do it.

But I fully acknowledge that we are talking about a video game, where the heart of the mightiest ( and only ) empire of Tamriel boast some, what, six or seven town ? 'Towns', even. Joking aside, I know some things at least need to be simplified.

I'm not really arguing that mimicking real-world history is the way to go, I'm rather advocating that taking inspiration from real-world history could be more interesting. And I'm certainly not saying the lore of Elder Scrolls should be changed - it's an old universe, with a long and dispersed development, with the focus of making video games. I know all of these things imply severe limitations.

And in some way, even if I didn't see it and experienced it by myself, the setting of Solstice with various races having come ( despite blood feud and harsh fighting over the land ) to some peaceful-ish cohabitation is certainly a thing I like. I don't know how much ( or how less ) the different groups in Solstice interact with each other, how it is depicted, but I really think it's a more interesting setting that one where you're being said 'Hey, some different people lived here before, but we came and now they're gone ! Anyway we didn't bother removing their buildings, so have a look !'.

On that vein, I really liked the Craglorn quests ( and other means of storytelling ) about the redguard invasion and the attempted resistance of the nedes ( and the 'trahison' of Titus Something ).

Also, I didn't played Skyrim, but the main story isn't about nords vs imperials, which are... both humans ? And after, what, millenia, they still are very distinct groups, with little to no mixity ? In the end, I don't think it's about the impossibility to mimick real-world history, but more a will to keep things really clearly separated - and once again, I totaly understand why, but still, it feels a bit weird sometime.

Syldras

So, before replying to anything else (maybe in a later post), I'd like to give my view on the Corelanya Manor quest, as long as the impressions are still completely fresh.

I honestly love that quest. It (although that's probably a bit sad, actually) is the first quest since a long time that got me totally immersed (the last one was Zerith-var's story, but companion stories are always a bit different, and from chapter stories... well, that's been several years!). Felt like almost 2 hours of vacation, in a way (I wanted to really make the most of it, so I walked most of the time and just ran in passages where you had to fight; although, actually, I also sneaked alot... But anyway). If the writing for this game would be on that level all the time (or almost all the time), I'd be super happy and would truly recommend this game to friends. I can say this was clearly the best sidequest of this chapter (the bantam guar one was also nice, but that was a short and humorous one - so not really comparable), maybe even the best of this whole chapter - but I haven't fully finished the main quest yet.

But, really, everything in this quest just seemed right. The whole atmosphere, the location, background music, dialogues, lore books, voice acting, the lighting and effects (for the extent in which it's possible with this game's engine), so much beautiful imagery. The main story could actually really be from a early 19th century dark romanticist novel, very classic in its construction with the tragic, really tragic, background narration. Also, it had a few, slight Lovecraftian nuances - even more than whole Necrom had, actually. Or at least Necrom never felt actually eerie or like delving into something obscure to me.

Except for the atmosphere and the story in total, I enjoyed
- the main characters we encountered in the manor
- that there was no obvious black/white moralizing
- that our character could give a little statement about their own background/family, even if it makes no difference in the quest
- background lore about the end of necromancy among the Corelanya (it's not "everyone decided giving it up is the moral thing to do", which they usually try to tell us)
- the garden (pro tip from real life: you can't really get lost, since they always make you walk the longest path )

As for the things I liked a little less (but they were easy to ignore in this case, nothing serious)...

I don't get the whole conflict between the two quest givers, the sisters, to be honest. It seems such a minor thing to argue about? Like a waste of time to even bother about such things, from my point of view. I see that they were used as a parallel to other characters in the story, but nonetheless, their fight seemed really trivial (especially compared to the story of the people who once lived there).

I wouldn't really have needed npcs to accompany me inside at all, actually. Of course I see they were needed for some situations within the quest, but... if it had been written differently, without them, I'd happily explored the place alone! I'm someone who loves silence (I even usually quest at night because then I won't come across other people), it's just wonderfully relaxing to explore some abandoned place alone, be it in real life or in a game (in real life I'm also someone who wanders around for hours alone somewhere - forests, cemeteries, abandoned structures, whatever; and this quest totally evoke that feeling of being at such a place - and who's actually happy not to see or speak anyone for days and weeks). I don't really need or want a travel companion, I might tolerate one, if that person doesn't annoy me. In a game I'd want an npc accompanying me if that character functions as a lore source and tells me about the place. Otherwise I don't necessarily feel I'd need them.

And when it comes to this specific case, I found their arguing a little annoying. Luckily, it weren't more than 1 or 2 lines sometimes, at some locations, so it was easy to ignore. I also didn't talk to them at all if it wasn't necessary to progress - usually I'd talk to everyone, just to get extra dialogue out of curiosity - but in this case, I just thought "To Oblivion with it!", I won't let that disturb the beautiful atmosphere, so I just ignored them as much as possible. I see that's more a personal thing, other people might want to have that arguing between them and slightly more funny lines inbetween so the atmosphere doesn't get too dark for them? I don't know. It comes up to differences in personal preferences here, I guess.

Ah yes, the lesson at the end. Oh well, wouldn't have been necessary to spell it out (the typical "Today I learned..." type dialogues), but obviously mainstream mass media can't go without that nowadays. Like people can't just draw their own conclusions, you know, silently, in their head, for themselves.

Also, the puzzles weren't so interesting, but okay. At least easily done.

And why would my Dunmer be afraid of ghosts or think of ghosts as something horrifying? But that's one of those dialogue bits where the writers don't seem to consider that for some of Tamriel's cultures ghosts aren't anything unusual or strange at all.

But anyway, even if I wrote more in detail about the points I wasn't fully convinced of, overall, this was a beautiful quest I really enjoyed. I'd love to see more of that in this game.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Fair point. Although maybe you should give the old "getting kidnapped on purpose to learn enemy plans" a try. You might find you liked it.

I already tried the "being locked up in a cell" part a few times, and I can say it's not for me. Somehow I always end up in the Imperial City Prison, which is very strange, considering I rarely visit the Imperial City at all.

metheglyn wrote: »

While I think the balance of humor and serious is off, I don't suspect them of not taking the story seriously. Some of the player response options have been tone-deaf or just outright strange, but I'm willing to give them time to get this new system working better.

Well, from my point of view, of you write a story seriously, you'd show great care to build the desired atmosphere and would show even greater care to make sure nothing ruins it, especially not some random silly joke.

So it's hard for me to understand how this can happen. Were they lacking overview? Are different people working together and someone just shoves extra dialogue options in at some points, maybe without having much context? That would explain such cases, but I find't it hard to believe.

metheglyn wrote: »

And, for all his faults (and he has plenty), at least he's never flirted with my character.

I mean, that's certainly a plus, but for me the whole character still doesn't really "work".

Sometimes I wonder whether that might also be a "cultural difference" thing. All this boasting and bigmouthed talk I see in some characters... that just doesn't work well in some cultures. It's not understood as "cool" or "self-assured" but as obnoxious and vain. It's better if someone keeps their trap shut as much as possible, but actually does great things - silently, without boasting. "Do it, don't talk about it."

I also always notice the same issue in media online, no matter the topic. Announcements or ads or things like that, if they're full of self-praise ("We've achieved so much! We're wonderful! Everything was perfect!") - people here would just shake their heads and think "What a nonsense." It comes across as useless empty talk, and as negative. At best, it's understood that it's based on cultural differences, and just ignored, as much as possible.

So also fictional characters who have this "I'm awesome!" (or handsome, or witty, or whatever) attitude, whether they mean it seriously or not, look more like ridiculous clowns than someone we'd find likeable. Unfortunately, most of the "fan favorites" fall into exactly that category.

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, the marketing of them often doesn't resonate with me, and I do think they are over-used.

It's a pity since there are so many interesting things this game has. It just narrows the focus so much and doesn't appeal to people at all who don't care for these few characters.

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol...now I'm imagining that happening in the cinematic where he knifes us.

I have my own headcanon for that (I need to find a reason why a Telvanni would get into that situation of all things), but also that one didn't include the horrible brainless random "Jakarn flirting".

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Fair point. Although maybe you should give the old "getting kidnapped on purpose to learn enemy plans" a try. You might find you liked it.

I already tried the "being locked up in a cell" part a few times, and I can say it's not for me. Somehow I always end up in the Imperial City Prison, which is very strange, considering I rarely visit the Imperial City at all.

Just as well. I don't imagine the Imperial City Prison has captors who are worth getting close to in order to learn their plans. It really is the kind of thing you should save for enemies of significance.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

While I think the balance of humor and serious is off, I don't suspect them of not taking the story seriously. Some of the player response options have been tone-deaf or just outright strange, but I'm willing to give them time to get this new system working better.

Well, from my point of view, of you write a story seriously, you'd show great care to build the desired atmosphere and would show even greater care to make sure nothing ruins it, especially not some random silly joke.

So it's hard for me to understand how this can happen. Were they lacking overview? Are different people working together and someone just shoves extra dialogue options in at some points, maybe without having much context? That would explain such cases, but I find't it hard to believe.

I don't know how their writing team is structured or how many people work on one quest or quest chain. There might be multiple people working on different parts of a quest chain like the main quest. There might be some editing somewhere in the process that changes some of the original intent. There might be specific requirements that need to be met. I think game quest writing is a different process from any writing I've ever done, and I honestly don't know how well I could do it. I don't understand some of the decisions, either, though.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And, for all his faults (and he has plenty), at least he's never flirted with my character.

I mean, that's certainly a plus, but for me the whole character still doesn't really "work".

Sometimes I wonder whether that might also be a "cultural difference" thing. All this boasting and bigmouthed talk I see in some characters... that just doesn't work well in some cultures. It's not understood as "cool" or "self-assured" but as obnoxious and vain. It's better if someone keeps their trap shut as much as possible, but actually does great things - silently, without boasting. "Do it, don't talk about it."

From my point of view, his boasting is somewhat excusable because he has done it. He's good at his job. But I understand that doesn't work for everyone, and some find it outright annoying.

Syldras

Main quest, part 4 of 5:

So, I got introduced to grappling bows. Once more. No dialogue option to say I already used them - more than once. If, rarely, some characters recognize that we've done older quests with them before, why could this not checked beforehand, I wonder? Which quests we already completed is tracked, after all.

Then, Vanny (Whose hologram effect looked extremely strange - is that bugged? I don't think we're supposed to see his eyeballs and teeth like that?) explained to me Wormblood's plans for an Inverted Planemeld and my only dialogue option was to ask what it is about, etc. Which was rather redundant considering the daily quest giver in Sunport has already explained it to me in detail earlier. Makes no sense to treat it as a huge secret but let some random npcs on the market place talk about it casually, to everyone, without any quest pre-requirements. Problem could have been easily avoided by just not giving the daily quest giver that dialogue bit (I think it was even an optional dialogue branch). A strange oversight somehow, once again.

Quest reward: Well, a kitchy looking tiara/circlet (or anything like that)... If it was only bismuth, without those pink things on the sides, if might have looked a little better. But that's just personal taste. I'm sure the queen/regent in her pink plastic gown would like it (Honestly, I get that the shiny colors are probably supposed to be silk, but the sheen looks so much like plastic, it's really not... nice). But okay, this thread is about writing, not about fashion

Ah yes, and the Argonian temple ruins. An interesting place, you'd assume, but it somehow only served as a backdrop, we didn't actually learn anything about it. Not even some random lorebook nearby, just for flavor. That was a little sad. I can't be the only person who wants to know something about a place they visit?

Azah being astonished about the function and purpose of the Soul Reapers was also rather... Well.

But the main thing that caught my attention, several times, is that even if we have a "negative" and a "positive" dialogue option, the negative one will most often not be negative/unfriendly towards the person we're talking to. It's just the more aggressive one, usually something threatening the baddies with violence. So most of the time there's still no choice how to approach the person in front of us, to make our stance towards them clear - which had been a thing I had imagined when thinking about different dialogue options for roleplay reasons. Just being able to yell something violent instead of neutrally saying I'll take care of a task (usually "kill xyz") isn't really interesting to me (especially since my character isn't very emotional anyway, and even less so brutish).

Another aspect would be our character's morals. That was a reason for people wishing for more dialogue choices: To be able to portray different moral stances of our character. But even that doesn't really work like this, as the difference between saying and yelling "I'll kill the enemy" is marginal.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

Main quest, part 4 of 5:

So, I got introduced to grappling bows. Once more. No dialogue option to say I already used them - more than once. If, rarely, some characters recognize that we've done older quests with them before, why could this not checked beforehand, I wonder? Which quests we already completed is tracked, after all.

Then, Vanny (Whose hologram effect looked extremely strange - is that bugged? I don't think we're supposed to see his eyeballs and teeth like that?) explained to me Wormblood's plans for an Inverted Planemeld and my only dialogue option was to ask what it is about, etc. Which was rather redundant considering the daily quest giver in Sunport has already explained it to me in detail earlier. Makes no sense to treat it as a huge secret but let some random npcs on the market place talk about it casually, to everyone, without any quest pre-requirements. Problem could have been easily avoided by just not giving the daily quest giver that dialogue bit (I think it was even an optional dialogue branch). A strange oversight somehow, once again.

Quest reward: Well, a kitchy looking tiara/circlet (or anything like that)... If it was only bismuth, without those pink things on the sides, if might have looked a little better. But that's just personal taste. I'm sure the queen/regent in her pink plastic gown would like it (Honestly, I get that the shiny colors are probably supposed to be silk, but the sheen looks so much like plastic, it's really not... nice). But okay, this thread is about writing, not about fashion

The grappling bow annoyed me, too. Gabrielle kindly explaining it to me, even though the very name makes it self-evident.

As to Vanny's hologram, I think it was deliberate. I believe it was meant to show that the wall made clear communication difficult, akin to how we kept getting "static" reception of his words. So both his words and image kept fading in and out. What I didn't understand was a comment he made when we made contact, saying something like, "I hoped you or Gabrielle picked up my staff." But...he knew we had, didn't he? Because in the prologue he used his staff to communicate with us on Stirk. So why is he so surprised we have it and are using it?

Since I hadn't talked to the daily quest givers (dailies for delves and world bosses really don't interest me much) I hadn't heard him talk about the reverse plane meld, but I had already done the public dungeon and seen it going on in there, and then of course Cadwell's hopeful squire had mentioned it. I really do wonder if the "what's happening on the other side of the wall" secret/mystery was really just marketing and not meant to be a major plot point.

Syldras wrote: »

Ah yes, and the Argonian temple ruins. An interesting place, you'd assume, but it somehow only served as a backdrop, we didn't actually learn anything about it. Not even some random lorebook nearby, just for flavor. That was a little sad. I can't be the only person who wants to know something about a place they visit?

You aren't, and I expected some more chatter about the ruins, at least, from Gabrielle who is a member of the Antiquarian Circle. Just a few comments as we traversed it. Even Raz made a comment about the place we went to with him, and he's not a scholar.

Syldras wrote: »

But the main thing that caught my attention, several times, is that even if we have a "negative" and a "positive" dialogue option, the negative one will most often not be negative/unfriendly towards the person we're talking to. It's just the more aggressive one, usually something threatening the baddies with violence. So most of the time there's still no choice how to approach the person in front of us, to make our stance towards them clear - which had been a thing I had imagined when thinking about different dialogue options for roleplay reasons. Just being able to yell something violent instead of neutrally saying I'll take care of a task (usually "kill xyz") isn't really interesting to me (especially since my character isn't very emotional anyway, and even less so brutish).

Another aspect would be our character's morals. That was a reason for people wishing for more dialogue choices: To be able to portray different moral stances of our character. But even that doesn't really work like this, as the difference between saying and yelling "I'll kill the enemy" is marginal.

I've been disappointed by the npc reactions to the new dialogue options, too. Sometimes it feels like your choice doesn't matter, and other times it feels like there's a clear choice the writers wanted you to make, and if you don't choose that one, you get lectured by the npc and your opinion on a subject outright dismissed.

I chose to tell Gabrielle she should avenge Darien and then she basically told me I was wrong to think that way. Instead of telling me vengeance wasn't her way, she gave me a little lecture about how vengeance always leads you down the wrong path. Ok, well...let's just cut out half the quests in the game, then. Vengeance is one of Tamriel's more robust industries.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

As to Vanny's hologram, I think it was deliberate. I believe it was meant to show that the wall made clear communication difficult, akin to how we kept getting "static" reception of his words. So both his words and image kept fading in and out.

That's not what I'm bothered by. It's more that the effect made his teeth come out and the eyeballs literally looked like, well, singular spheres. I've seen a lot of half-transparent npcs already (ghosts, flashback projections, etc), but nothing like that. So I think they indeed might have forgotten to change something about the character model before doing that ghostly overlay. Maybe. In any way it looked rather strange and also not the way I'd imagine a flickering instable shade to behave. I'd think the whole outline or shape would flicker, but not the way that... uhm... you see its skeleton or other internal parts.

metheglyn wrote: »

What I didn't understand was a comment he made when we made contact, saying something like, "I hoped you or Gabrielle picked up my staff." But...he knew we had, didn't he? Because in the prologue he used his staff to communicate with us on Stirk. So why is he so surprised we have it and are using it?

That was certainly an oversight. And there were several this time. Never had seen that this often in earlier chapters.

metheglyn wrote: »

Since I hadn't talked to the daily quest givers (dailies for delves and world bosses really don't interest me much) I hadn't heard him talk about the reverse plane meld, but I had already done the public dungeon and seen it going on in there, and then of course Cadwell's hopeful squire had mentioned it. I really do wonder if the "what's happening on the other side of the wall" secret/mystery was really just marketing and not meant to be a major plot point.

My main problem in this case...

...is not that I (as a player) have known about it before, but that I had to act all surprised towards Vanny again, including asking him shocked questions and stating how unbelievable that is - while another npc in Sunport just randomly tells everyone about it, in detail. So logically, within the narration, that made no sense. The market place guy shouldn't have that dialogue, or shouldn't know about it at all if it's such a mystery that only Vanny knows about. Especially the details about the "Inverted Planemeld" and what that means - which is much more than the random daedra sightings on the island might hint on.

metheglyn wrote: »

Instead of telling me vengeance wasn't her way, she gave me a little lecture about how vengeance always leads you down the wrong path.

I also have the impression that there's something lecturing in a lot of dialogue bits. Not necessarily things I disagree with, but I notice how there's often some "smart" lesson. Not necessarily directed directly at the player, but just some npc making a statement about something they find awesome, or the "Today I learned..." style story conclusions of which I've seen several this time. You know: Take care of the environment. Be nice to your siblings. Don't drink too much alcohol. Vengeance is bad. And it's usually something rather, how to call it?... Obvious? I somehow find it weird. Maybe because it reminds me of children's media too much.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As to Vanny's hologram, I think it was deliberate. I believe it was meant to show that the wall made clear communication difficult, akin to how we kept getting "static" reception of his words. So both his words and image kept fading in and out.

That's not what I'm bothered by. It's more that the effect made his teeth come out and the eyeballs literally looked like, well, singular spheres. I've seen a lot of half-transparent npcs already (ghosts, flashback projections, etc), but nothing like that. So I think they indeed might have forgotten to change something about the character model before doing that ghostly overlay. Maybe. In any way it looked rather strange and also not the way I'd imagine a flickering instable shade to behave. I'd think the whole outline or shape would flicker, but not the way that... uhm... you see its skeleton or other internal parts.

It was very odd, but I didn't see it as a bug or mistake. I get what you're saying, that to see his teeth and eyeball spheres is an odd way to represent a flickering image, but I still think it was deliberate.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Since I hadn't talked to the daily quest givers (dailies for delves and world bosses really don't interest me much) I hadn't heard him talk about the reverse plane meld, but I had already done the public dungeon and seen it going on in there, and then of course Cadwell's hopeful squire had mentioned it. I really do wonder if the "what's happening on the other side of the wall" secret/mystery was really just marketing and not meant to be a major plot point.

My main problem in this case...

...is not that I (as a player) have known about it before, but that I had to act all surprised towards Vanny again, including asking him shocked questions and stating how unbelievable that is - while another npc in Sunport just randomly tells everyone about it, in detail. So logically, within the narration, that made no sense. The market place guy shouldn't have that dialogue, or shouldn't know about it at all if it's such a mystery that only Vanny knows about. Especially the details about the "Inverted Planemeld" and what that means - which is much more than the random daedra sightings on the island might hint on.

The only thing I can think of is

they expect people to do the main quest before doing all the side quests, and so don't think it's necessary to add in options to say, 'yeah, I heard about that in the town square'. I don't say it's a good excuse, and I agree it doesn't fit narratively when you can find these things out before. But I do think they expected us to first hear about the whole thing from Vanny.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Instead of telling me vengeance wasn't her way, she gave me a little lecture about how vengeance always leads you down the wrong path.

I also have the impression that there's something lecturing in a lot of dialogue bits. Not necessarily things I disagree with, but I notice how there's often some "smart" lesson. Not necessarily directed directly at the player, but just some npc making a statement about something they find awesome, or the "Today I learned..." style story conclusions of which I've seen several this time. You know: Take care of the environment. Be nice to your siblings. Don't drink too much alcohol. Vengeance is bad. And it's usually something rather, how to call it?... Obvious? I somehow find it weird. Maybe because it reminds me of children's media too much.

It's kind of making me feel like they don't want people playing any character style except good and noble.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

It's kind of making me feel like they don't want people playing any character style except good and noble.

I don't know. It just all feels so... "positive"? Like they want, in every way, give a good example. Be it through these "Today I learned..." messages as quest endings or even through the whole portrayal of the island that we see in game, actually.

Let's be honest, while "People have changed their traditions here, because they've left the mainland long ago" isn't unplausible, I find it striking that everything that was conflictual or dark normally, according to lore, is just so mild and harmless here. Generally, everyone and everything just seems to be friendly: Of course, they're religiously tolerant, everybody gets along, everyone cares for the environment, Sanguine worshippers just eat cheese and dance (although that's horrible too, of course, if they indulge too much in it), Sithis is a harmless god and just grants you whatever you wish if you ask nicely at his shrine, the Alliance War factions also get along (I mean, they have to, but still), it's like everything that should actually be conflictual or dark in lore has somehow been changed to be less "unsafe". Just the evil Worm Cultists disturb the peace. I bet they also drink alcohol and smoke and use horrible swearwords like "darn" and "heck"!

And in case of Sithis and Sanguine, the reasoning of changed traditions on a remote island wouldn't even make sense, since in this world, these deities are real. I don't see how Sanguine would just decide to treat people on some island differently. Everywhere else he lures them into his domain, gets them addicted, corrupts their morals completely until they do horrible things, and never lets them leave again, but on Solstice, he's fine with them eating a bit of cheese and dancing, and if they're happy enough, they can go home again? And in case of that over ground carnival quests, there's even background lore, introduced with this chapter, how this carnival randomly appears and disappears in all regions of Tamriel. I just don't see how Sanguine would be acting completely different on Solstice. Why should he?

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's kind of making me feel like they don't want people playing any character style except good and noble.

I don't know. It just all feels so... "positive"? Like they want, in every way, give a good example. Be it through these "Today I learned..." messages as quest endings or even through the whole portrayal of the island that we see in game, actually.

Let's be honest, while "People have changed their traditions here, because they've left the mainland long ago" isn't unplausible, I find it striking that everything that was conflictual or dark normally, according to lore, is just so mild and harmless here. Generally, everyone and everything just seems to be friendly: Of course, they're religiously tolerant, everybody gets along, everyone cares for the environment, Sanguine worshippers just eat cheese and dance (although that's horrible too, of course, if they indulge too much in it), Sithis is a harmless god and just grants you whatever you wish if you ask nicely at his shrine, the Alliance War factions also get along (I mean, they have to, but still), it's like everything that should actually be conflictual or dark in lore has somehow been changed to be less "unsafe". Just the evil Worm Cultists disturb the peace. I bet they also drink alcohol and smoke and use horrible swearwords like "darn" and "heck"!

And in case of Sithis and Sanguine, the reasoning of changed traditions on a remote island wouldn't even make sense, since in this world, these deities are real. I don't see how Sanguine would just decide to treat people on some island differently. Everywhere else he lures them into his domain, gets them addicted, corrupts their morals completely until they do horrible things, and never lets them leave again, but on Solstice, he's fine with them eating a bit of cheese and dancing, and if they're happy enough, they can go home again? And in case of that over ground carnival quests, there's even background lore, introduced with this chapter, how this carnival randomly appears and disappears in all regions of Tamriel. I just don't see how Sanguine would be acting completely different on Solstice. Why should he?

I don't disagree with you. I have felt the story steering me to conclusions as well as prodding me to be the good hero, regardless of what I might think.

At the end of the Shell-Tide village quest, when Keshu told me to go ahead and use the shrine, I had a moment of thinking: I don't want to do that; I know how Sithis shrines work. Then I did it and nothing happened except, "The corruption is gone!" So the brothers and the village got a happy ending and the Stirk Fellowship got their Argonian forces. It didn't fit with what I know of Sithis and made me wonder if the real price to pay will come later. I mean, seeing the trend, probably not, but I had to keep reminding myself this is only half the story. Is the western half so peaceful and light because the eastern half is savage and dark? If that's the case, I don't say I like that representation, but I could understand the motive behind it, trying to create really contrasting themes so the dark part hits harder.

As for Sanguine, I was comparing the two quests we got on Solstice with the public dungeon in Shadowfen, Sanguine's Demense. We don't actually see a lot of the more explicit activities credited to Sanguine in that dungeon either, but it does have a sense of despair laid over it that the two places on Solstice lack. One of the quests, you force people to drink to get them to "join the party" (something they don't want to do because they know what'll happen to them) and another quest you find people who escaped through death back and pull them back to their roles to provide a distraction for a weary party-goer to be able to sneak out. I did not expect a repeat of those quests, but I did expect to have to somehow save the Dibellans who had gone in, not just find them and talk to them. So yes, it's been tamed down/sanitized (however you want to term it). It doesn't make sense and it doesn't fit Sanguine's previously revealed character. It had an "everything in moderation" vibe that does not belong in anything relating to that particular Daedric prince.

Syldras

I also wondered whether they wanted to make some "destroyed paradise" story out of it.

Or whether there was deliberate stereotyping going on, like "the super good and friendly islanders (who are bright, happy and tolerant) against the evil horrible Worm Cult". And while contrasting might sometimes work to make situations feel more intense, if done carefully and subtly, there's a big danger it will just turn into absolute clichés - clear "black and white" characterizations of people. And that doesn't make a world believable.

And most of all it doesn't fit TES. Clear "good" and "evil" sides might work in fairytales, but TES has never been so morally clear before; not even the Daedric Princes are clearly negative.

How believable is it even when it comes to humans? It's all just so friendly and easy going on Solstice... Not sure how big the population is supposed to be, but in real life, if you'd ask random 5 people at a bus stop, even those few individuals wouldn't have the same world views, character traits and morals.

metheglyn wrote: »

made me wonder if the real price to pay will come later. I mean, seeing the trend, probably not, but I had to keep reminding myself this is only half the story. Is the western half so peaceful and light because the eastern half is savage and dark? If that's the case, I don't say I like that representation, but I could understand the motive behind it, trying to create really contrasting themes so the dark part hits harder.

Who knows. All I know is that I would not design it like that, especially if both parts of the story are clearly seperated with almost 5 months inbetween (assuming Part 2 will drop at the beginning of November as the Q4 dlcs usually did). There might be people who enjoy both completely friendly and tame stories and dark and horrifying ones, but chances are that a lot of people might not enjoy such extremes at all, but prefer mixed impressions. Or maybe some have a tendency for one of it, but then the other half is boring to them, and I don't think that's good design decision then either.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

made me wonder if the real price to pay will come later. I mean, seeing the trend, probably not, but I had to keep reminding myself this is only half the story. Is the western half so peaceful and light because the eastern half is savage and dark? If that's the case, I don't say I like that representation, but I could understand the motive behind it, trying to create really contrasting themes so the dark part hits harder.

Who knows. All I know is that I would not design it like that, especially if both parts of the story are clearly seperated with almost 5 months inbetween (assuming Part 2 will drop at the beginning of November as the Q4 dlcs usually did). There might be people who enjoy both completely friendly and tame stories and dark and horrifying ones, but chances are that a lot of people might not enjoy such extremes at all, but prefer mixed impressions. Or maybe some have a tendency for one of it, but then the other half is boring to them, and I don't think that's good design decision then either.

I had thought, too, that we might have some stories or quests dealing with what this wall has done to the inhabitants on the western side. It completely divided their island, which you would think would cause more havoc than we've seen. Most that I can recall is that one abandoned village, where the wall intersects a hut, and I think there was some papers or journal to the effect of, "Yeah, we better leave." But if the wall cut that village in half, you'd think we see the displaced villagers somewhere, and that they'd be distraught over whatever might have happened to the inhabitants in the other half of the village.

It's like the wall went up and everyone's lives just went on as normal. Unless I'm missing something, which wouldn't surprise me. The Grotto is the only place where people were seemingly directly affected by the wall and the reverse plane-meld.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

I had thought, too, that we might have some stories or quests dealing with what this wall has done to the inhabitants on the western side. It completely divided their island, which you would think would cause more havoc than we've seen. Most that I can recall is that one abandoned village, where the wall intersects a hut, and I think there was some papers or journal to the effect of, "Yeah, we better leave." But if the wall cut that village in half, you'd think we see the displaced villagers somewhere, and that they'd be distraught over whatever might have happened to the inhabitants in the other half of the village.
It's like the wall went up and everyone's lives just went on as normal. Unless I'm missing something, which wouldn't surprise me. The Grotto is the only place where people were seemingly directly affected by the wall and the reverse plane-meld.

They're too happy to care (except for one, merchant, I think? Wasn't there someone who was slightly annoyed not to get new deliveries or something like that?.). "There's that horrible wall!" *continues drinking wine, playing solitaire or flirting with an Argonian*

Wait, wasn't there an Argonian in Sunport who had something to say about the other half? I've got to check that. Ah, right. Xil-Rah is his name, and that's his dialogue (English version copied from UESP):
"I miss my tribe. I have been stuck here since the wall of spirits materialized and cut the island in two. I hope my egg-brothers and sisters are all right back in my village. That the Worm Cult has not harmed them."
He doesn't even sound concerned. Everything will be fine, really!

But seriously, I already noticed in the prologue that there's a strange shallowness of emotions. Horrible or terrifying things happen, but people might be a little unsettled for a moment - if at all - and then it's fine. As if every deeper negative emotion would be unwelcome.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I had thought, too, that we might have some stories or quests dealing with what this wall has done to the inhabitants on the western side. It completely divided their island, which you would think would cause more havoc than we've seen. Most that I can recall is that one abandoned village, where the wall intersects a hut, and I think there was some papers or journal to the effect of, "Yeah, we better leave." But if the wall cut that village in half, you'd think we see the displaced villagers somewhere, and that they'd be distraught over whatever might have happened to the inhabitants in the other half of the village.
It's like the wall went up and everyone's lives just went on as normal. Unless I'm missing something, which wouldn't surprise me. The Grotto is the only place where people were seemingly directly affected by the wall and the reverse plane-meld.

They're too happy to care (except for one, merchant, I think? Wasn't there someone who was slightly annoyed not to get new deliveries or something like that?.). "There's that horrible wall!" *continues drinking wine, playing solitaire or flirting with an Argonian*

Wait, wasn't there an Argonian in Sunport who had something to say about the other half? I've got to check that. Ah, right. Xil-Rah is his name, and that's his dialogue (English version copied from UESP):
"I miss my tribe. I have been stuck here since the wall of spirits materialized and cut the island in two. I hope my egg-brothers and sisters are all right back in my village. That the Worm Cult has not harmed them."
He doesn't even sound concerned. Everything will be fine, really!

But seriously, I already noticed in the prologue that there's a strange shallowness of emotions. Horrible or terrifying things happen, but people might be a little unsettled for a moment - if at all - and then it's fine. As if every deeper negative emotion would be unwelcome.

Oh, right, I forgot I was going to look for signs of grief in Azah regarding Merric. I had some idea that the prologue didn't have adequate space to handle that emotion and do it justice, and that maybe in the main story we'd see a little more emotion from him. We did not. It's like everyone just kinds of shrugs and says, "Well, that happened."

I've still got some points I want to talk to you about from the main quest, once you've finished it. I even wrote them down this time!

As for the Sunport npcs, I remember a drunken Bosmer worried about her supply of wine dwindling. I don't know why she's worried; the Sanguine cultist seems to have a good supply in stock.

I don't recall that Argonian, so I must have missed him somehow. So one npc impacted by the wall directly. One maybe impacted indirectly.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, right, I forgot I was going to look for signs of grief in Azah regarding Merric. I had some idea that the prologue didn't have adequate space to handle that emotion and do it justice, and that maybe in the main story we'd see a little more emotion from him. We did not. It's like everyone just kinds of shrugs and says, "Well, that happened."

I think I saw them mentioning his name twice or thrice so far, but that's it. No emotions at all.

metheglyn wrote: »

I've still got some points I want to talk to you about from the main quest, once you've finished it. I even wrote them down this time!

We'll be able to discuss them soon.

I really hope there are no stats about how long players stay at one location or busy themselves with a quest, interpreting a long stay as something players liked or found interesting. My longest stays this time were when I wrote down notes about things I found particularly weird (Well, except for Corelanya Manor, that was actual enjoyment that kept me slow down and take in the atmosphere there).

metheglyn wrote: »

As for the Sunport npcs, I remember a drunken Bosmer worried about her supply of wine dwindling. I don't know why she's worried; the Sanguine cultist seems to have a good supply in stock.

But maybe she does only drink wine from Eastern Solstice! But now the Worm Cult/Wormblood/Mannimarco drank it all! Or a certain guest of theirs. Although I'm not sure whether he drinks at all. Probably not for a long time.

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't recall that Argonian, so I must have missed him somehow. So one npc impacted by the wall directly. One maybe impacted indirectly.

Impacted in a way, but certainly not emotionally, from what I saw.

Syldras

The dark work has now been accomplished!

(After 11 days of a few hours each - and most were the side quests; the main quest was astonishingly short, especially in comparison to the rest.)

Part 5 of 5:

This part also began with rather strange questions and repetitions. And it ended with someone saying "Look at the ocean..." and pointing to the right. In a room. With no windows in sight. That was literally the last sentence of the whole story, and maybe it sums it up well, since I often had the impression that dialogues might have been written early, then there were some location changes or rearrangements in the stories, and the dialogue didn't fit anymore. I have not experienced that in earlier chapters. But let's get into detail here...

Why is everyone so afraid of crypts? Is it the bugged doors? Or are there temporal disturbances?

Truly, the dialogue bit with Skordo before entering the Corelanya Crypt made no sense - or indicated that something was changed during quest creation but the original text remained: Skordo asked me whether I think Wormblood is still in there - while we had fought him and trapped him inside that Argonian ruin earlier, and stole a key from him, and had already come to the conclusion that he had been in this crypt before we encountered him in the Argonian ruin, doing something... and we wanted to investigate what he might have searched for or done in there.

The big finale felt a little random to me. Also...

How did they get Mannimarco's sarcophagus to that place that fast? Yes, yes, I know, a wizard did it... Probably the same wizard that brought it back to the mine after the end of the main quest. Yes, it's still there and will remain there for all eternity, I guess. I don't mind, though, that place makes a nice location for tea parties, you're completely undisturbed, certainly even more so if this chapter gets a little older and most people have finished it, and the sarcophagus makes a nice tea table.

But: There are more questions. Like: What was the exact plan Wormblood had? We learned that to revive Mannimarco, using the Gift Of Death, someone would have to give their life in exchange freely, without coercion or deceit. Wormblood did not have that intention, obviously, as his didn't even sound pleased when Mannimarco just possessed him. So would it have been sufficient to just sacrifice some random Worm Cultist (surely someone would be delusional enough to sacrifice himself for the Master's return)?

I've also, since finishing the content, read elsewhere that people assume that Galerion Vanny was the intended sacrifice, but that wouldn't have worked, as he certainly wouldn't have given his life freely (although the idea itself, if it wasn't for that part, didn't sound that bad). So if this is not possible, what did they kidnap Vanny for? Yes, yes, I know, so Mannimarco is happy after his return and might forgive them for their failure of not reviving him earlier. Or for the questionable quality of his sarcophagus - really, if your sculptor/mason chooses a stone that looks totally weathered in at most 10 years, throw him into a furnace, he's clearly done a bad job!).

And how did Mannimarco return then, without the Gift Of Death that Wormblood had failed to obtain? Yes, he somehow took over Wormblood's body, but if he could just do this, why not last Tuesday or five years ago?

While we're at the Gift Of Death: Exchanging Gabrielle for Darien was... Well, I already said the ending seemed a little random, no? Also: Fan service. And: They always return at some point.

Except for Vanny (Yes, I call him that now; as a Master Wizard of Great House Telvanni, I call Trechtus whatever I want!)... So... Even if I have no love for the Mages Guild, I did find it a little sad that you could even bash him in that conversation with Wormblood ("funny" dialogue option: "You're probably tired of him by now anyway"), and also, at the end of the story, that no one really seemed to care that he was still imprisoned by the Worm Cult. After the Mannimarco fight (when Mannimarco fled), everybody was so cheerful and happy, no one seemed to remember that Vanny was still missing. We even had a long happy talk with Darien, but Vanny? Who is that even? Probably no one important...

Fake Vanny screaming for his life was odd to see, and it was so obviously a trap, it was strange that Gabrielle fell for it. Especially since she was the one who said earlier that there's no reason to be concerned, he has everything under control, and that weird stuff about Vanny letting people kidnap him to he can spy on them.

Generally, some ideas were nice, in my opinion, but the execution could need more attention. Also, to be honest: Not much happened in those 5 short quests. Considering how long the side quests were this time, they could have put the whole main story into 2 or maybe at most 3 of those. Corelanya Manor kept me busy for 2 hours; but the main quest? 2, or maybe 3 in total? It was also a little strange that the main quest got less ressources than the side quests, it seems (from the scope alone), since I'd personally expect the main quest to be the thing that explores a topic in-depth. At least you'd expect to be able to learn more about some topic within a whole quest line instead of one single quest somewhere.

What caught my attention even more was that, while we saw beautifully designed places and they created a few effectful scenes, we didn't get much background lore on them. Or in general. The villains? Discardable, we learn nothing about their background or motivations. This was extremely strange, especially since the whole chapter seemed to have the general theme of heritage (and traditions, and how societies might evolve over a long time). We had stories on the Argonians developing their own ways, we had the history of House Corelanya, with its changes over the centuries, and one of the news articles even mentioned that Wormblood is said to be a relative of Mannimarco. So I had hoped, we'd learn more about him - or about Mannimarco. We know nothing except for that Mannimarco had been a student in Artaeum, and closely befriended with Vanny, before he became a necromancer - I would have found it interesting to learn more about the time before that, about his motivations, maybe about the people who shaped him when he was younger. For a while I wondered whether he might actually be of Corelanya heritage (maybe even put to rest in a family crypt somewhere on the island, and then some relative learned more about him and thought of reviving him, or something like that) - but we learn nothing. Nothing about him, nothing about Wormblood. Maybe that will change in the other half of the chapter, but not knowing whether it will, and somehow not believing it either, it rather makes me feel disappointed than curious for the next part.

The topic of heritage or cultural changes itself wasn't a bad idea, although I disliked how the evolution always seemed to end at something... more harmless. We also had a bit on funerary rites, my weird special interest, but it wasn't that remarkable either. Even the real world has a huge variety, and rather unusual ones from what's common in the "Western world" today, and in comparison to that, what we saw was rather mundane. And I still find it strange that Necrom had nothing about this at all - Necrom! The huge necropolis and religious center of all Dunmer. That would have been the perfect place to explore that topic. Really weird there was not much about it.

Ah yes, and no technical info on the proto-Ghostfence so far either, but I hope we'll learn more about that in Part 2. (Don't worry about the souls, though, from Dunmer religion I know that souls like to gather, since it makes them feel less lonely in death - so these must have a jolly party in that thing and probably scream out of joy! Really. Nothing to worry about.)

And to return to the article that started this thread: No, I didn't really hate anyone in this story. Except maybe for the annoying Dibella cultists - why can't I choose a violent dialogue option and take my revenge on them for wasting my time with their weird cult of bores? But honestly, if the villains feel like cardbox figures, how would I be able to hate them (assuming I would be a hateful person or someone who even cares for something like that)? If it has no character, it will not feel like a living being to me, and I don't hate my drainage for clogging and my bread for getting moldy either, so how would I hate such a "character" that has no character?

So much for now. I really thought it would take me longer to see the ending, especially considering my current condition (sinister ritual failed, only caught a cold).

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

The dark work has now been accomplished!

(After 11 days of a few hours each - and most were the side quests; the main quest was astonishingly short, especially in comparison to the rest.)

Part 5 of 5:

This part also began with rather strange questions and repetitions. And it ended with someone saying "Look at the ocean..." and pointing to the right. In a room. With no windows in sight. That was literally the last sentence of the whole story, and maybe it sums it up well, since I often had the impression that dialogues might have been written early, then there were some location changes or rearrangements in the stories, and the dialogue didn't fit anymore. I have not experienced that in earlier chapters. But let's get into detail here...

Why is everyone so afraid of crypts? Is it the bugged doors? Or are there temporal disturbances?

Truly, the dialogue bit with Skordo before entering the Corelanya Crypt made no sense - or indicated that something was changed during quest creation but the original text remained: Skordo asked me whether I think Wormblood is still in there - while we had fought him and trapped him inside that Argonian ruin earlier, and stole a key from him, and had already come to the conclusion that he had been in this crypt before we encountered him in the Argonian ruin, doing something... and we wanted to investigate what he might have searched for or done in there.

Ah, yes: the ending where no one seemed much affected by anything. Although at least Raz's model looked a little downcast.

I had actually been into the crypt long before I had the quest, even read the note in there, so I knew far before the last stage of the main quest that the Worm Cult had been looking for something in the crypt. Skordo's babbling about how much he hates crypts had me wishing I could say: look, you can stay out here if you want. I put his odd musings down to him being more of the 'act, don't think' character type. Would have been nice, while we had the telephone line open to that ghost, if we could have asked other questions about Clan Corelanya, but I get it: time is of the essence and so on. But then Skordo was so quick to run out the crypt, and I guess he locked the door behind him, because I could not use it. Thanks, pal.

Syldras wrote: »

The big finale felt a little random to me. Also...

How did they get Mannimarco's sarcophagus to that place that fast? Yes, yes, I know, a wizard did it... Probably the same wizard that brought it back to the mine after the end of the main quest. Yes, it's still there and will remain there for all eternity, I guess. I don't mind, though, that place makes a nice location for tea parties, you're completely undisturbed, certainly even more so if this chapter gets a little older and most people have finished it, and the sarcophagus makes a nice tea table.

But: There are more questions. Like: What was the exact plan Wormblood had? We learned that to revive Mannimarco, using the Gift Of Death, someone would have to give their life in exchange freely, without coercion or deceit. Wormblood did not have that intention, obviously, as his didn't even sound pleased when Mannimarco just possessed him. So would it have been sufficient to just sacrifice some random Worm Cultist (surely someone would be delusional enough to sacrifice himself for the Master's return)?

I've also, since finishing the content, read elsewhere that people assume that Galerion Vanny was the intended sacrifice, but that wouldn't have worked, as he certainly wouldn't have given his life freely (although the idea itself, if it wasn't for that part, didn't sound that bad). So if this is not possible, what did they kidnap Vanny for? Yes, yes, I know, so Mannimarco is happy after his return and might forgive them for their failure of not reviving him earlier. Or for the questionable quality of his sarcophagus - really, if your sculptor/mason chooses a stone that looks totally weathered in at most 10 years, throw him into a furnace, he's clearly done a bad job!).

And how did Mannimarco return then, without the Gift Of Death that Wormblood had failed to obtain? Yes, he somehow took over Wormblood's body, but if he could just do this, why not last Tuesday or five years ago?

While we're at the Gift Of Death: Exchanging Gabrielle for Darien was... Well, I already said the ending seemed a little random, no? Also: Fan service. And: They always return at some point.

Except for Vanny (Yes, I call him that now; as a Master Wizard of Great House Telvanni, I call Trechtus whatever I want!)... So... Even if I have no love for the Mages Guild, I did find it a little sad that you could even bash him in that conversation with Wormblood ("funny" dialogue option: "You're probably tired of him by now anyway"), and also, at the end of the story, that no one really seemed to care that he was still imprisoned by the Worm Cult. After the Mannimarco fight (when Mannimarco fled), everybody was so cheerful and happy, no one seemed to remember that Vanny was still missing. We even had a long happy talk with Darien, but Vanny? Who is that even? Probably no one important...

Fake Vanny screaming for his life was odd to see, and it was so obviously a trap, it was strange that Gabrielle fell for it. Especially since she was the one who said earlier that there's no reason to be concerned, he has everything under control, and that weird stuff about Vanny letting people kidnap him to he can spy on them.

I would have classified the ending as odd, with a few giant leaps of logic, but random works, too.

From the first, I thought to myself: this plan sounds like a bad idea. Well, that was partly driven by the me knowing Mannimarco returns regardless of what great plan we put into action. But still, as powerful as they were making Wormblood out to be, I thought trying to lure him out into the open was nonsense. Yet, like the good little hero I am (and apparently great negotiator, too) I went along with it. I did choose to use the "Galerion must be getting on your nerves" line because I thought that would be the best way to convince Wormblood to hand him over without making it seem like I was very invested in Vanny personally. Granted, that's me reading a lot into one line, but I often find myself doing that with dialogue choices. I did like that we could stipulate they were to bring Vanny unharmed--I thought that was a nice detail.

So, ok, we've made the deal and set the plan in motion, but the success of the plan depends on these old artifacts that Gabrielle found in the first quest actually working? Again, bad plan. Especially since the lore book at the site which has the ritual chant written in it is riddled with passages that are 'undecipherable'. But, Vanny's staff led us to those artifacts, and those artifacts belong to Meridia, and so of course we can use them at just the right time to pull everyone into the Coloured Rooms. Well, I'm in this thing, so why not follow through on what I'm positive is a plan that won't work.

Small note: the entire time we've been doing the main quest, Raz and Walks were still wearing their normal armor from their previous appearances in game while Skordo was kitted out in the new Stirk gear. By the time we get to the Meridia place in this quest, both Raz and Walks changed into their Stirk Fellowship outfit. Maybe their uniforms weren't ready before? Had to be custom made or altered to accommodate their tails?

Now, the Coloured Rooms. Not what I expected. They look pretty much just like Coldharbour, but a little lighter and with coral. I had always imagined them to be blindingly brilliant and colourful. I'm sure this was just a tiny part of them, but still, I was kind of disappointed in the appearance. And of course once we're in, we're all scattered, and the others seem to get put up on ledges seemingly just so they can call down instructions to me.

Until Vanny showed up, crying for help, I had thought the Worm Cult had brought the actual Vanny. Soon as he started calling, "Oh, help me Gabrielle" I knew it wasn't him. I'm willing to allow that the plan/trap going somewhat awry caused Gabrielle to rush in without much thought when she thought Vanny needed her. Here's where I was actually surprised by the quest, though: I did not expect, at all, to lose Gabrielle. I figured, what with Meridia and the Coloured Rooms being involved, we'd see Darien, whom I didn't think was dead so much as pressed into Meridia's eternal service. I did not think we'd be exchanging Gabrielle's life for Darien's. Well, I've never been such a huge fan of Darien's that I needed to see him come back. He's ok as a character, and I didn't mind working with him in the Daggerfall Covenant main quest, but I have never been really attached to him. I do know he's very popular in general.

Then, as soon as she's willingly sacrificed herself to bring back Darien, the Gift of Death is purified and, surprise, it was a Light of Meridia all along! This is when Wormblood screams "portal the sarcophagus here now!" and I thought: wait, what? We had to use some old, crusty ritual with a bell and whatever to get here, but he can just bring over a sarcophagus? An agent of Molag Bal can just summon things into Meridia's realm? Also: to what point? The Gift of Death is gone, used up. I don't know how they got Mannimarco's soul out of Coldharbour without it.

Then of course Mannimarco surprises Wormblood by just jumping into his body (where did Wormblood's soul go? Will it be lingering around somewhere, hoping for revenge?) and thereby proving that Wormblood is Mannimarco. Then he threatens us all like a good villain, promises revenge for all insults past and present, and heads out, presumably to go talk to Vanny, for whom I am very much worried now. Though I do wonder: what's that meeting like? Mannimarco shows up, but Vanny thinks it's Wormblood, because it's Wormblood's body, and the first words are...?

So the box with Mannimarco's actual body is still sitting in the Coloured Rooms? Does Meridia ever clean the place out? Why did she allow all this stuff to go down in her realm in the first place? I would have thought, a bunch of Molag Bal people cluttering up her rooms, she'd show up. But, I guess we did stomp all around Coldharbour without much interference from Molag Bal, so maybe it's just that Daedric Princes aren't that powerful or are far more apathetic than we know.

Syldras wrote: »

What caught my attention even more was that, while we saw beautifully designed places and they created a few effectful scenes, we didn't get much background lore on them. Or in general. The villains? Discardable, we learn nothing about their background or motivations. This was extremely strange, especially since the whole chapter seemed to have the general theme of heritage (and traditions, and how societies might evolve over a long time).

I was disappointed that we didn't learn more about Wormblood. He is, literally, a placeholder.

Syldras wrote: »

Ah yes, and no technical info on the proto-Ghostfence so far either, but I hope we'll learn more about that in Part 2. (Don't worry about the souls, though, from Dunmer religion I know that souls like to gather, since it makes them feel less lonely in death - so these must have a jolly party in that thing and probably scream out of joy! Really. Nothing to worry about.)

And to return to the article that started this thread: No, I didn't really hate anyone in this story. Except maybe for the annoying Dibella cultists - why can't I choose a violent dialogue option and take my revenge on them for wasting my time with their weird cult of bores? But honestly, if the villains feel like cardbox figures, how would I be able to hate them (assuming I would be a hateful person or someone who even cares for something like that)? If it has no character, it will not feel like a living being to me, and I don't hate my drainage for clogging and my bread for getting moldy either, so how would I hate such a "character" that has no character?

So much for now. I really thought it would take me longer to see the ending, especially considering my current condition (sinister ritual failed, only caught a cold).

It does feel like so much has been left out, but once again I had to remind myself: this is only half of the story. I didn't hate anyone in this half, though, not even Mannimarco. The Worm Cultists were an obstacle, yes, but not worthy of my hate.

Now that you've finished the dark work, go have a cup of tea and get some rest (a non-sinister ritual, if you will). Kick that cold to the curb!

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

From the first, I thought to myself: this plan sounds like a bad idea.

Yes, it sounded very dangerous, almost insane, to come up with that. There were several other plans I could think of immediately, that seemed less of a risk. Of course, seeing how that story turned out - by very strange coincidence (within the narration), of course - it had to be like this. But it felt very constructed, not like the situation evolved like that naturally (some people once tried to convince me that "it's fantasy, everything is possible", but I absolutely disagree with that; even if it's fantasy, Mundus does has its rules of "nature" and there are likelier and unlikelier things).

metheglyn wrote: »

I did choose to use the "Galerion must be getting on your nerves" line because I thought that would be the best way to convince Wormblood to hand him over without making it seem like I was very invested in Vanny personally. Granted, that's me reading a lot into one line, but I often find myself doing that with dialogue choices.

I did the same, from the standpoint of, well, how you usually haggle. Although I did wonder later whether it might have been a mistake, because they might have registered it not as that, but as me having a dislike for that npc. Which is not true - with the background info he has, my character also has the feeling that there's more to him somehow, and does not hate him. I just hope having used that dialogue choice have not ruined later dialogues with that character for me. Which is another problem by itself: Dialogue choices might not be understood the way the writers intended them (at least to me, the wording and the symbol next to it often don't seem to really fit), so our character might be understood differently than we had thought, and get a reaction on that that we absolutely did not want. So from my point of view it's also very important to make clear what the choices mean. Not by overly obvious wording, but something about symbols and how they're assigned to the text we see... something just often feels off the way it is now.

metheglyn wrote: »

But, Vanny's staff led us to those artifacts, and those artifacts belong to Meridia, and so of course we can use them at just the right time to pull everyone into the Coloured Rooms. Well, I'm in this thing, so why not follow through on what I'm positive is a plan that won't work.

Such a

...staff that just glows if something is important comes quite handy, huh? The big question is how would it? Every possible explanation just seems very constructed, from the thing being attuned to Meridian energy (What for?), to Vanny knowing or sensing there's something Meridian and sending Gabrielle there because of that (Which would mean he'd have made up the whole plan to lure whatever evil baddie into Meridia's realm already and we just dicovered what he had planned for us, which, well, also doesn't sound believable, even for the Great Mage).

metheglyn wrote: »

Now, the Coloured Rooms. Not what I expected. They look pretty much just like Coldharbour, but a little lighter and with coral. I had always imagined them to be blindingly brilliant and colourful. I'm sure this was just a tiny part of them, but still, I was kind of disappointed in the appearance.

We've already seen them once before, actually:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Colored_Rooms

But you're right, they don't really seem remarkable.

metheglyn wrote: »

And of course once we're in, we're all scattered, and the others seem to get put up on ledges seemingly just so they can call down instructions to me.

Yes, very conveniently placed. Totally "natural", especially for a chaotic situation

metheglyn wrote: »

Here's where I was actually surprised by the quest, though: I did not expect, at all, to lose Gabrielle. I figured, what with Meridia and the Coloured Rooms being involved, we'd see Darien, whom I didn't think was dead so much as pressed into Meridia's eternal service. I did not think we'd be exchanging Gabrielle's life for Darien's. Well, I've never been such a huge fan of Darien's that I needed to see him come back. He's ok as a character, and I didn't mind working with him in the Daggerfall Covenant main quest, but I have never been really attached to him. I do know he's very popular in general.

Well, who knows...

whether she doesn't just return after the end of the whole story. As she's also still sending us these excavation codex notes even while being dead. And yes, I also thought that Darien's state was different, and he wasn't just dead like any random mortal. Especially since what we saw of him in Summerset. But maybe the current writers aren't the same as back then and weren't aware of all of this? I don't know. I don't care much for Darien either, by the way. Maybe a bit more since his portrayal in Summerset, but generally I don't find him that interesting. He's okay, I guess. Oh, and of course he had to make a bread reference again, because that's obviously one of his main points of characterization.

metheglyn wrote: »

Then, as soon as she's willingly sacrificed herself to bring back Darien, the Gift of Death is purified and, surprise, it was a Light of Meridia all along! This is when Wormblood screams "portal the sarcophagus here now!" and I thought: wait, what? We had to use some old, crusty ritual with a bell and whatever to get here, but he can just bring over a sarcophagus? An agent of Molag Bal can just summon things into Meridia's realm? Also: to what point? The Gift of Death is gone, used up. I don't know how they got Mannimarco's soul out of Coldharbour without it.
So the box with Mannimarco's actual body is still sitting in the Coloured Rooms? Does Meridia ever clean the place out? Why did she allow all this stuff to go down in her realm in the first place? I would have thought, a bunch of Molag Bal people cluttering up her rooms, she'd show up. But, I guess we did stomp all around Coldharbour without much interference from Molag Bal, so maybe it's just that Daedric Princes aren't that powerful or are far more apathetic than we know.

Yes, that was the point where things were getting completely strange.

Also, it's not only Mannimarco's but also Schrödinger's sarcophagus somehow, as, depending on whether you look or not, it's both in the Colored Rooms as well as in the world of mortals, in that tea party place mine we visited earlier.

metheglyn wrote: »

Then of course Mannimarco surprises Wormblood by just jumping into his body (where did Wormblood's soul go? Will it be lingering around somewhere, hoping for revenge?) and thereby proving that Wormblood is Mannimarco.

That's actually a little more interesting part, although I'm not sure of how much of the older lore they picked up here.

We don't know what really happened. If it's just some kind of temporary possession, then Wormblood should still be in there, just his spirit is unable to control the body - comparable to that "npc suddenly possessed by a Daedric Prince and glowing through their eyes" thing we've seen several times in ESO. In that case it would be possible that Mannimarco lets go of Wormblood's body again at some point, to swap back into his real body, if that thing can still be regained and restored somehow, or he could maybe jump into someone else. Who knows, maybe even repeatedly, possessing half of Tamriel... Well, no, maybe not that many, but depending on how much energy it costs him, he could at least swap from Wormblood into someone else again. And of course the whole process leads to the question why he did it just now and not earlier. And of course, since we know these beings can do that, whether he actually is a lich at this point.

Now, we already had stories of liches taking over someone else's body in TES games before. Most often, I think, we don't learn much about what happens to the original soul that inhabited the body. But there's also this interesting case where a lich took over the body of a friend, and they literally merged, even using their combined names from then on:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Erandur-Vangaril
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Erandur-Vangaril
(Adding both articles in this case, as both have a bit of interesting info that the other one doesn't have.)
So... maybe the being we see walking around as Wormblood now is a mix between Mannimarco and Wormblood. What made me think what a story it would have been if Mannimarco, himself, had planned something like that with Vanny... That would have been the creepiest and most obsessive thing he could do with him, but honestly, from my point of view not even unthinkable, at least if the obsession has reached madness level. But I don't think we'll ever see something like that.

metheglyn wrote: »

Then he threatens us all like a good villain, promises revenge for all insults past and present, and heads out, presumably to go talk to Vanny, for whom I am very much worried now. Though I do wonder: what's that meeting like? Mannimarco shows up, but Vanny thinks it's Wormblood, because it's Wormblood's body, and the first words are...?

All I can say is

that Mannimarco probably enjoyed that moment a lot, and Vanny a little less, once he realized whose prisoner he's now. Although how much of a prisoner is he even? There was a bit about how Worm Cult guards were coming for him, but on the other hand, he doesn't seem to be put into a small cell somewhere, at least he also mentioned having been able to talk to some Argonian. And he must have been able to see how the landscape around him looks like, as he could describe that to us. But then again, characters in this chapter seem to be able to look through walls anyway - to see the Whispering Wall or the ocean... So it's still possible that Vanny could be imprisoned in... let's say some Argonian pyramid, maybe. Maybe the Worm Cult just locked one of those up as temporary prison for Vanny, including its inhabitants? On the other hand, Vanny would certainly have mentioned that rather striking architecture, but he did not back in the prologue.

metheglyn wrote: »

I was disappointed that we didn't learn more about Wormblood. He is, literally, a placeholder.

A masked placeholder even, so we learn absolutely nothing about him, not even how his face looks like. He's basically completely characterless. Well, except for that he's evil and has evil plans, of course. I still find it disappointing, especially if we still won't learn more about him in Part 2. (In that case we should make up our own story. How about Wormblood being time- or dimension-travelling Mannimarco from a different dimension who has the plan to revive this dimension's Mannimarco, so there are two evil wizards? Not that I ever heard of such a story before.)

metheglyn wrote: »

Now that you've finished the dark work, go have a cup of tea and get some rest (a non-sinister ritual, if you will). Kick that cold to the curb!

No rest for the wicked. Ever.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I did choose to use the "Galerion must be getting on your nerves" line because I thought that would be the best way to convince Wormblood to hand him over without making it seem like I was very invested in Vanny personally. Granted, that's me reading a lot into one line, but I often find myself doing that with dialogue choices.

I did the same, from the standpoint of, well, how you usually haggle. Although I did wonder later whether it might have been a mistake, because they might have registered it not as that, but as me having a dislike for that npc. Which is not true - with the background info he has, my character also has the feeling that there's more to him somehow, and does not hate him. I just hope having used that dialogue choice have not ruined later dialogues with that character for me. Which is another problem by itself: Dialogue choices might not be understood the way the writers intended them (at least to me, the wording and the symbol next to it often don't seem to really fit), so our character might be understood differently than we had thought, and get a reaction on that that we absolutely did not want. So from my point of view it's also very important to make clear what the choices mean. Not by overly obvious wording, but something about symbols and how they're assigned to the text we see... something just often feels off the way it is now.

It's seemed to me that some of the symbols don't match the lines they're next to, or at least not how I perceive those lines. Is frowny red face meant to be angry? Aggressive? Jerky? Gruff? I did wonder if these choices are somehow being marked on our character, so that in later interactions with these npcs, they react according to how we responded. But that might be too involved a system for what this is. Really, in this particular situation, I was just using the response I thought would best go towards saving a certain npc.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But, Vanny's staff led us to those artifacts, and those artifacts belong to Meridia, and so of course we can use them at just the right time to pull everyone into the Coloured Rooms. Well, I'm in this thing, so why not follow through on what I'm positive is a plan that won't work.

Such a

...staff that just glows if something is important comes quite handy, huh? The big question is how would it? Every possible explanation just seems very constructed, from the thing being attuned to Meridian energy (What for?), to Vanny knowing or sensing there's something Meridian and sending Gabrielle there because of that (Which would mean he'd have made up the whole plan to lure whatever evil baddie into Meridia's realm already and we just dicovered what he had planned for us, which, well, also doesn't sound believable, even for the Great Mage).

Well...

In the prologue, after he used it to communicate with us, I figured that was why he made sure we had it and thought: clever Vanny. But now it does whatever the narrative needs it to do and, like you, I have a hard time believing the Great Mage could foresee that precisely. Though Gabrielle does tell us Vanny made that staff himself, so who knows what enchantments he put on it. And now Walks has it, which is fine with me, because it seems that whoever takes charge of that staff doesn't have the best of luck.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Now, the Coloured Rooms. Not what I expected. They look pretty much just like Coldharbour, but a little lighter and with coral. I had always imagined them to be blindingly brilliant and colourful. I'm sure this was just a tiny part of them, but still, I was kind of disappointed in the appearance.

We've already seen them once before, actually:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Colored_Rooms

But you're right, they don't really seem remarkable.

Do you know, I don't think I ever realized that was the Coloured Rooms. Guess I should have been prepared.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Here's where I was actually surprised by the quest, though: I did not expect, at all, to lose Gabrielle. I figured, what with Meridia and the Coloured Rooms being involved, we'd see Darien, whom I didn't think was dead so much as pressed into Meridia's eternal service. I did not think we'd be exchanging Gabrielle's life for Darien's. Well, I've never been such a huge fan of Darien's that I needed to see him come back. He's ok as a character, and I didn't mind working with him in the Daggerfall Covenant main quest, but I have never been really attached to him. I do know he's very popular in general.

Well, who knows...

whether she doesn't just return after the end of the whole story. As she's also still sending us these excavation codex notes even while being dead. And yes, I also thought that Darien's state was different, and he wasn't just dead like any random mortal. Especially since what we saw of him in Summerset. But maybe the current writers aren't the same as back then and weren't aware of all of this? I don't know. I don't care much for Darien either, by the way. Maybe a bit more since his portrayal in Summerset, but generally I don't find him that interesting. He's okay, I guess. Oh, and of course he had to make a bread reference again, because that's obviously one of his main points of characterization.

Ok, so I have more questions about

the Gift of Death. We get it from the hiding spot Clan Corelanya put it in, and ghostie told us some about it (including, I believe, that it originally came from Mor Naril, which is mentioned in the Corelanya history lore books as the place where the clan got all their necromantic secrets from). Then Gabrielle researches it and tells us what it does and mentions that it's not certain what happens to the sacrifice soul, but that it seems to just cease existing at all. So all of this seems like it's an artifact that can be used over and over, but when we're in the Coloured Rooms, it seems like people are acting like it's a one-use thing? Before we know it's a light of Meridia, Gabrielle says we'll use it, and then the Worm Cult won't be able to use it no matter what. So if it's a one time use item, how did anyone ever figure out its properties? If its not a one time use item, why does she think that us using it will automatically make it unusable for the cult?

And how did a light of Meridia get turned into a one-to-one soul/life transfer? I'm not entirely sure what a light of Meridia is capable of, but it seems to mostly banish dark or break dark rituals, so how does that convert into becoming a dark ritual? If it was corrupted, wouldn't it be more likely to bring dark or aid dark rituals? I guess these are pointless questions, since we don't really know what Daedric princes are capable of or how their magics work.

Edit to add: As far as Gabrielle's fate goes, we'll probably learn something like: using the Gift of Death in Meridia's realm made it so Gabrielle's soul didn't disappear, and now she's another eternal thrall of Meridia. Maybe she and Darien can be reunited that way in the end. As far as Antiquarian Circle stuff goes, does she make any comments on the latest antiquities? They have a new member, an Argonian, and of the pieces I've dug up, I haven't seen Gabrielle's name come up once.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Then of course Mannimarco surprises Wormblood by just jumping into his body (where did Wormblood's soul go? Will it be lingering around somewhere, hoping for revenge?) and thereby proving that Wormblood is Mannimarco.

That's actually a little more interesting part, although I'm not sure of how much of the older lore they picked up here.

We don't know what really happened. If it's just some kind of temporary possession, then Wormblood should still be in there, just his spirit is unable to control the body - comparable to that "npc suddenly possessed by a Daedric Prince and glowing through their eyes" thing we've seen several times in ESO. In that case it would be possible that Mannimarco lets go of Wormblood's body again at some point, to swap back into his real body, if that thing can still be regained and restored somehow, or he could maybe jump into someone else. Who knows, maybe even repeatedly, possessing half of Tamriel... Well, no, maybe not that many, but depending on how much energy it costs him, he could at least swap from Wormblood into someone else again. And of course the whole process leads to the question why he did it just now and not earlier. And of course, since we know these beings can do that, whether he actually is a lich at this point.

Now, we already had stories of liches taking over someone else's body in TES games before. Most often, I think, we don't learn much about what happens to the original soul that inhabited the body. But there's also this interesting case where a lich took over the body of a friend, and they literally merged, even using their combined names from then on:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Erandur-Vangaril
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Erandur-Vangaril
(Adding both articles in this case, as both have a bit of interesting info that the other one doesn't have.)
So... maybe the being we see walking around as Wormblood now is a mix between Mannimarco and Wormblood. What made me think what a story it would have been if Mannimarco, himself, had planned something like that with Vanny... That would have been the creepiest and most obsessive thing he could do with him, but honestly, from my point of view not even unthinkable, at least if the obsession has reached madness level. But I don't think we'll ever see something like that.

It is interesting, and thanks for those links!

The two-in-one also reminds me of that one quest in Coldharbour where the two mages guild mages are in the one body through an experiment. I was basing my initial musings on what we saw in Corelanya Manor, where there was one body, and the soul of one brother going into it displaced the other brother's soul (which I believe is now in that soul trap device the first brother was in all that time). I could see it going either way, really. And I got really creeped out by the idea of Mannimarco planning a body-share situation with Vanny. *shudders*

Here's something I found amusing from one of those links, by the way. "This lich, having absorbed both Erandur and Vangaril, is known as Erandur-Vangaril henceforward. He soon declared war with the mages guild and sent them several letters, becoming increasingly dark in his intentions and loyalties to Mannimarco." There's something about "declaring war" being followed by "sent them several letters" that made me laugh. A war of words! And not a lot of letters, just several. Because, really, who's got time for a robust letter-writing campaign?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Then he threatens us all like a good villain, promises revenge for all insults past and present, and heads out, presumably to go talk to Vanny, for whom I am very much worried now. Though I do wonder: what's that meeting like? Mannimarco shows up, but Vanny thinks it's Wormblood, because it's Wormblood's body, and the first words are...?

All I can say is

that Mannimarco probably enjoyed that moment a lot, and Vanny a little less, once he realized whose prisoner he's now. Although how much of a prisoner is he even? There was a bit about how Worm Cult guards were coming for him, but on the other hand, he doesn't seem to be put into a small cell somewhere, at least he also mentioned having been able to talk to some Argonian. And he must have been able to see how the landscape around him looks like, as he could describe that to us. But then again, characters in this chapter seem to be able to look through walls anyway - to see the Whispering Wall or the ocean... So it's still possible that Vanny could be imprisoned in... let's say some Argonian pyramid, maybe. Maybe the Worm Cult just locked one of those up as temporary prison for Vanny, including its inhabitants? On the other hand, Vanny would certainly have mentioned that rather striking architecture, but he did not back in the prologue.

I bet that

Mannimarco really enjoyed it and drew out the situation as long as he could. As for how much of a prisoner, it's hard to say. Vanny did mention an ally, and I wonder if we meet that ally once we get past the wall, but he also sounded surprised (or maybe disdainful) that his captors hadn't "figured out what he was up to yet." Last we heard from him, he said his captors were approaching. The first time we saw his projection, on Stirk, his hands were bound. Any other time we saw him, they weren't. So it's really hard to say if he's in a cell, or what. I guess he's wherever the plot needs him to be, and knows just as much as the plot requires.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was disappointed that we didn't learn more about Wormblood. He is, literally, a placeholder.

A masked placeholder even, so we learn absolutely nothing about him, not even how his face looks like. He's basically completely characterless. Well, except for that he's evil and has evil plans, of course. I still find it disappointing, especially if we still won't learn more about him in Part 2. (In that case we should make up our own story. How about Wormblood being time- or dimension-travelling Mannimarco from a different dimension who has the plan to revive this dimension's Mannimarco, so there are two evil wizards? Not that I ever heard of such a story before.)

Lol, oh dear. Two Mannimarcos? What would Vanny say?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Now that you've finished the dark work, go have a cup of tea and get some rest (a non-sinister ritual, if you will). Kick that cold to the curb!

No rest for the wicked. Ever.

You're right; that is a universal truth.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

It's seemed to me that some of the symbols don't match the lines they're next to, or at least not how I perceive those lines. Is frowny red face meant to be angry? Aggressive? Jerky? Gruff?

In the prologue, when it came up the first time, an info box popped up. I screenshotted it (in German), let me look...
Friendly face: "Friendly - A supporting, compassionate reply."
Angry face: "Angry - a harsh, grumpy or crass reply."
Hand holding a flower: "Merciful: a lenient and generous reply."
Hand holding a dagger: "Ruthless: A vengeful and resentful reply."
Laughing face: "Humorous: A bantering, ironic or comedic reply."
Heart symbol: "Flirty: An amorous reply."
(Wording translated as closely as possible, including the fact that some lines say "or" and others say "and".)

And yes, I also often had the feeling that it doesn't really fit the wording. Which made me wonder what would "count", what the npc would actually react upon - the wording or the symbol? Because that wasn't clear, I usually chose the neutral reply then.

metheglyn wrote: »

I did wonder if these choices are somehow being marked on our character, so that in later interactions with these npcs, they react according to how we responded. But that might be too involved a system for what this is.

I truly hope not. Generally, I'd love that idea, but as long as it's not always clear how a reply is even meant, it would only lead to problems (especially since you can't just redo an earlier quest on a character, so once the choice was made, that's it).

metheglyn wrote: »

In the prologue, after he used it to communicate with us, I figured that was why he made sure we had it and thought: clever Vanny. But now it does whatever the narrative needs it to do and, like you, I have a hard time believing the Great Mage could foresee that precisely. Though Gabrielle does tell us Vanny made that staff himself, so who knows what enchantments he put on it.

I also liked the impression I had in the prologue. That seemed truly believable and not over the top. But...

making it the universal gadget, prepared for more or less everything it could spontaneously be needed for, just seems exaggerated to me. While I could imagine that Vanny might have thought about a few things, maybe specifically about aspects that might be useful if he ever encounters Mannimarco in person again, making it that universal just breaks immersion. Also, it's not the best narrational measure to just have some thing that solves every problem.

On the other hand I probably should be happy that the mentioning of Vanny's staff didn't give us a horrendous "flirty" dialogue option.

metheglyn wrote: »

the Gift of Death. We get it from the hiding spot Clan Corelanya put it in, and ghostie told us some about it

The big question actually is why some random Argonians would allow some random other people to store something like that in their place - and why the owners weren't concerned that other people knowing about it could also use it?!

metheglyn wrote: »

Then Gabrielle researches it and tells us what it does and mentions that it's not certain what happens to the sacrifice soul, but that it seems to just cease existing at all. So all of this seems like it's an artifact that can be used over and over, but when we're in the Coloured Rooms, it seems like people are acting like it's a one-use thing? Before we know it's a light of Meridia, Gabrielle says we'll use it, and then the Worm Cult won't be able to use it no matter what. So if it's a one time use item, how did anyone ever figure out its properties? If its not a one time use item, why does she think that us using it will automatically make it unusable for the cult?

She even described how people tested it first, on servants or prisoners or what it was. So another logic break. There were sadly many this time!

metheglyn wrote: »

As far as Gabrielle's fate goes, we'll probably learn something like: using the Gift of Death in Meridia's realm made it so Gabrielle's soul didn't disappear, and now she's another eternal thrall of Meridia. Maybe she and Darien can be reunited that way in the end. As far as Antiquarian Circle stuff goes, does she make any comments on the latest antiquities? They have a new member, an Argonian, and of the pieces I've dug up, I haven't seen Gabrielle's name come up once.

I'm not fully sure right now, but people still play in old areas too and they still get those messages there. In any way, it also causes a problem again, so I assume that, as we're used to meanwhile, in Part 2, everything will be fine again.

metheglyn wrote: »

And I got really creeped out by the idea of Mannimarco planning a body-share situation with Vanny. *shudders*

I think that's too evil for this game. Also...

actually I don't want to see Mannimarco as a completely mindlessly evil monster. If something is so far off from everything human, it's just not tragic anymore. It would be much more tragic if there's a tiny hint of doubt left - Vanny has been a close friend or even lover to him after all - but he feels, despite maybe memories resurfacing, he just has to do this. For his great goal.

We have a similar situation in TES3 Morrowind's backstory, actually, with the Tribunal murdering Nerevar. Almalexia might not have cared, but we know that Sil saw him as a friend and mourned him and regretted his deed centuries later (his main motivation in participating in the murder was probably believing in the greater good - the Chimer were in a war, after all, it didn't look good for them, and becoming gods was a plan to have the power to win the war and save lifes; it's a bit sad I regularly see people thinking they were just powerhungry, but they somehow always seem to forget under which circumstances that all took place). There's a projection of him in the memorial garden in CWC, next to the projection of Sil's murdered sister. And then the "Elegiac Vessel" antiquity in CWC, a jar made from artificial stone filled with flowers from Ald Sotha and the note "Forgive me." - although that might also be read as being adressed towards Sil's sister, of course, that's not clear, maybe he also felt guilt for not having been able to protect and save her from the daedric attack. But anyway, he regrets a few things that happened in his earlier life deeply, and he probably will, until his end. That's a part of what made him such a tragic figure.

metheglyn wrote: »

Here's something I found amusing from one of those links, by the way. "This lich, having absorbed both Erandur and Vangaril, is known as Erandur-Vangaril henceforward. He soon declared war with the mages guild and sent them several letters, becoming increasingly dark in his intentions and loyalties to Mannimarco." There's something about "declaring war" being followed by "sent them several letters" that made me laugh. A war of words! And not a lot of letters, just several. Because, really, who's got time for a robust letter-writing campaign?

And the horribly dark part...

seems to be declaring an increasing loyalty to Mannimarco. It probably looked like this:
Letter one: "I think Mannimarco is quite okay."
Letter two: "Actually I like Mannimarco."
Letter three: "I like Mannimarco truly a lot."
Letter four: "Mannimarco is my favorite necromancer!"
How horrendous!

metheglyn wrote: »

Mannimarco really enjoyed it and drew out the situation as long as he could.

Well,

if he can't access any of Wormblood's memories, and the last thing he remembers is getting killed or being soul-trapped in Coldharbour (shackled to the altar or wandering freely, but unable to leave), he might be a little confused right now. I hope some Worm Cultist even informs him that they have Vanny, not that he's forgotten in some dark dungeon somewhere... In any way, Mannimarco will be pleased to hear of it!

metheglyn wrote: »

Last we heard from him, he said his captors were approaching. The first time we saw his projection, on Stirk, his hands were bound. Any other time we saw him, they weren't. So it's really hard to say if he's in a cell, or what. I guess he's wherever the plot needs him to be, and knows just as much as the plot requires.

Which is sad somehow.

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, oh dear. Two Mannimarcos? What would Vanny say?

Probably not much. It's not like he ever shows much emotion.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's seemed to me that some of the symbols don't match the lines they're next to, or at least not how I perceive those lines. Is frowny red face meant to be angry? Aggressive? Jerky? Gruff?

In the prologue, when it came up the first time, an info box popped up. I screenshotted it (in German), let me look...
Friendly face: "Friendly - A supporting, compassionate reply."
Angry face: "Angry - a harsh, grumpy or crass reply."
Hand holding a flower: "Merciful: a lenient and generous reply."
Hand holding a dagger: "Ruthless: A vengeful and resentful reply."
Laughing face: "Humorous: A bantering, ironic or comedic reply."
Heart symbol: "Flirty: An amorous reply."
(Wording translated as closely as possible, including the fact that some lines say "or" and others say "and".)

And yes, I also often had the feeling that it doesn't really fit the wording. Which made me wonder what would "count", what the npc would actually react upon - the wording or the symbol? Because that wasn't clear, I usually chose the neutral reply then.

Ok, so there is some disconnect between what the icons are supposed to mean and what the actual lines come across as. When I suggested Gabrielle avenge Darien, it was the red/angry face, but I didn't think that was an angry, harsh, grumpy, or crass reply. At least, it wasn't in my mind. Well, it didn't matter anyway, in the end.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I did wonder if these choices are somehow being marked on our character, so that in later interactions with these npcs, they react according to how we responded. But that might be too involved a system for what this is.

I truly hope not. Generally, I'd love that idea, but as long as it's not always clear how a reply is even meant, it would only lead to problems (especially since you can't just redo an earlier quest on a character, so once the choice was made, that's it).

Yeah, seeing as how some of the responses played out, I hope not, too. But if they are, well, my main will just have to live with his mistakes and his social miscues. He's tough; he can handle it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In the prologue, after he used it to communicate with us, I figured that was why he made sure we had it and thought: clever Vanny. But now it does whatever the narrative needs it to do and, like you, I have a hard time believing the Great Mage could foresee that precisely. Though Gabrielle does tell us Vanny made that staff himself, so who knows what enchantments he put on it.

I also liked the impression I had in the prologue. That seemed truly believable and not over the top. But...

making it the universal gadget, prepared for more or less everything it could spontaneously be needed for, just seems exaggerated to me. While I could imagine that Vanny might have thought about a few things, maybe specifically about aspects that might be useful if he ever encounters Mannimarco in person again, making it that universal just breaks immersion. Also, it's not the best narrational measure to just have some thing that solves every problem.

On the other hand I probably should be happy that the mentioning of Vanny's staff didn't give us a horrendous "flirty" dialogue option.

Honestly, if it continues like that,

the staff is just a McGuffin, and that's never interesting. Though I did find the idea that Vanny had created it quite intriguing, and I would like to know more about that. I was relieved we never had any innuendo or supposed double entendre about Vanny's staff.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

the Gift of Death. We get it from the hiding spot Clan Corelanya put it in, and ghostie told us some about it

The big question actually is why some random Argonians would allow some random other people to store something like that in their place - and why the owners weren't concerned that other people knowing about it could also use it?!

I guess it depends on when that ruin became abandoned. But it really didn't seem all that hidden. What was to have stopped any intrepid adventurer from just finding it on a random explore? Was there something especially hidden about it?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As far as Gabrielle's fate goes, we'll probably learn something like: using the Gift of Death in Meridia's realm made it so Gabrielle's soul didn't disappear, and now she's another eternal thrall of Meridia. Maybe she and Darien can be reunited that way in the end. As far as Antiquarian Circle stuff goes, does she make any comments on the latest antiquities? They have a new member, an Argonian, and of the pieces I've dug up, I haven't seen Gabrielle's name come up once.

I'm not fully sure right now, but people still play in old areas too and they still get those messages there. In any way, it also causes a problem again, so I assume that, as we're used to meanwhile, in Part 2, everything will be fine again.

Well, this is a sequel, so narratively they could stick to her not being in the messages, and people just have to keep that in mind. But whatever content comes after this year: will it be moving us forward in time, or do we go back to that "all happening at once" notion?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And I got really creeped out by the idea of Mannimarco planning a body-share situation with Vanny. *shudders*

I think that's too evil for this game. Also...

actually I don't want to see Mannimarco as a completely mindlessly evil monster. If something is so far off from everything human, it's just not tragic anymore. It would be much more tragic if there's a tiny hint of doubt left - Vanny has been a close friend or even lover to him after all - but he feels, despite maybe memories resurfacing, he just has to do this. For his great goal.

I agree, because

then there's also that whole possible arc where Vanny tries to reach the last shreds of humanity in Mannimarco, to turn him from his path, and fails. Would Vanny try to reach him? I'm not sure. But just as Mannimarco might have had that hint of doubt and yet gone ahead to do it, Vanny might have had that moment where he thought he could convince him (despite not having been able to in the past) and tried that. And I'm not sure why I put this pure speculation part in spoiler tags, but I did, so there it is.

Syldras wrote: »

We have a similar situation in TES3 Morrowind's backstory, actually, with the Tribunal murdering Nerevar. Almalexia might not have cared, but we know that Sil saw him as a friend and mourned him and regretted his deed centuries later (his main motivation in participating in the murder was probably believing in the greater good - the Chimer were in a war, after all, it didn't look good for them, and becoming gods was a plan to have the power to win the war and save lifes; it's a bit sad I regularly see people thinking they were just powerhungry, but they somehow always seem to forget under which circumstances that all took place). There's a projection of him in the memorial garden in CWC, next to the projection of Sil's murdered sister. And then the "Elegiac Vessel" antiquity in CWC, a jar made from artificial stone filled with flowers from Ald Sotha and the note "Forgive me." - although that might also be read as being adressed towards Sil's sister, of course, that's not clear, maybe he also felt guilt for not having been able to protect and save her from the daedric attack. But anyway, he regrets a few things that happened in his earlier life deeply, and he probably will, until his end. That's a part of what made him such a tragic figure.

Not to go off on a Tribunal tangent here, but Sotha Sil is one of my favorite lore characters of all time because of his complexity and, yes, the tragic figure aspect. And a quick question: I thought I read in a lore book somewhere once that Nerevar was Almalexia's husband. Is that true? Because once I learned that, it put her role in the whole thing into a different perspective.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Here's something I found amusing from one of those links, by the way. "This lich, having absorbed both Erandur and Vangaril, is known as Erandur-Vangaril henceforward. He soon declared war with the mages guild and sent them several letters, becoming increasingly dark in his intentions and loyalties to Mannimarco." There's something about "declaring war" being followed by "sent them several letters" that made me laugh. A war of words! And not a lot of letters, just several. Because, really, who's got time for a robust letter-writing campaign?

And the horribly dark part...

seems to be declaring an increasing loyalty to Mannimarco. It probably looked like this:
Letter one: "I think Mannimarco is quite okay."
Letter two: "Actually I like Mannimarco."
Letter three: "I like Mannimarco truly a lot."
Letter four: "Mannimarco is my favorite necromancer!"
How horrendous!

Not much to say except

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Mannimarco really enjoyed it and drew out the situation as long as he could.

Well,

if he can't access any of Wormblood's memories, and the last thing he remembers is getting killed or being soul-trapped in Coldharbour (shackled to the altar or wandering freely, but unable to leave), he might be a little confused right now. I hope some Worm Cultist even informs him that they have Vanny, not that he's forgotten in some dark dungeon somewhere... In any way, Mannimarco will be pleased to hear of it!

So I hadn't thought of that and I wonder:

How much do you think a captured soul can find out about the goings-on in Tamriel? Do you think any daedra would have filled him in via taunting? Or when the Worm Cult seemed to be trying to get back in good with Molag Bal in the prologue, would any of that information have made its way to Mannimarco? Supposedly Mannimarco put this plan into place "just in case", so would he have been confused or more just impatient, like: what took you so long Wormblood? But yes, the specifics of what the cult and Wormblood were doing might be as yet unknown to him. But, come on, there's no way they're not going to tell him they have the Great Mage. They'll probably all rush to give him that info, hoping to get a reward out of it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, oh dear. Two Mannimarcos? What would Vanny say?

Probably not much. It's not like he ever shows much emotion.

Ok, ok, what would he think, then?

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Though I did find the idea that Vanny had created it quite intriguing, and I would like to know more about that.

Now,

it looks a little kitschy somehow, but, maybe that's not unexpected. In any way I'd find it interesting to know more about what it does or what Vanny had in mind while creating it like this; or lets say I would have, but I truly think that thing will turn into the Omnipotent Miracle Staff Of Solves-Every-Problem until the end of Part 2, which makes the thing completely uninteresting to me somehow.

metheglyn wrote: »

I was relieved we never had any innuendo or supposed double entendre about Vanny's staff.

Let's hope no one is taking notes about that now and finds it super awesome.

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess it depends on when that ruin became abandoned. But it really didn't seem all that hidden. What was to have stopped any intrepid adventurer from just finding it on a random explore? Was there something especially hidden about it?

No.

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, this is a sequel, so narratively they could stick to her not being in the messages, and people just have to keep that in mind. But whatever content comes after this year: will it be moving us forward in time, or do we go back to that "all happening at once" notion?

If we still get bigger story content updates over the next few years, I could imagine we'll get sequels to earlier chapters - starting with Dark Brotherhood 2 next year, and maybe Morrowind 2 at some point. That might also be the point when they'll add continuations to older stories directly to the same map, although I fear that might end with huge chaos, as all places (except for maybe a few new ones) would already show as explored on the map and it would probably become a bit difficult to find the new quests in the area?

And let's not get started with people who haven't played the old content yet. I already find throwing the guy screaming for Guildmaster Merric in every faction starter area, confusing new players who have neither played the base game guild questlines nor the old main quest yet, not to have been a good decision. If you'd now just mix everything up and have a whole map of old part 1 and new part 2 quests to explore... With a lot of care it might function, but after the thing with the new prologue (They could at least have added some info box that this story is a continuation of older quests and playing them out of order causes logic problems, couldn't they?) - I'm very uncertain about how this would turn out.

metheglyn wrote: »

then there's also that whole possible arc where Vanny tries to reach the last shreds of humanity in Mannimarco, to turn him from his path, and fails. Would Vanny try to reach him? I'm not sure. But just as Mannimarco might have had that hint of doubt and yet gone ahead to do it, Vanny might have had that moment where he thought he could convince him (despite not having been able to in the past) and tried that. And I'm not sure why I put this pure speculation part in spoiler tags, but I did, so there it is.

I think he would;

He purposedly lets his enemies - which should mainly consist of the Worm Cult - kidnap him, after all. No, but seriously, I can imagine that it might be difficult for him to give up hope. Especially from what we know about how he was when he was younger - people don't change entirely, after all. They could make such a tragic story about it, and give us deeper lore about the both of them. So far it's just so little, which is strange for two so central characters.

metheglyn wrote: »

Not to go off on a Tribunal tangent here, but Sotha Sil is one of my favorite lore characters of all time because of his complexity and, yes, the tragic figure aspect.

Same. If ESO could present something like that once more, about another central character that still has rather little lore... I think it would be well-received, if the writing is good. And they do have good writers, when I look at Zerith-var's questline or the quest in Corelanya Manor. The person or team who wrote the latter one could probably write something interesting about Mannimarco's background, too.

metheglyn wrote: »

And a quick question: I thought I read in a lore book somewhere once that Nerevar was Almalexia's husband. Is that true?

Yes.

metheglyn wrote: »

How much do you think a captured soul can find out about the goings-on in Tamriel? Do you think any daedra would have filled him in via taunting?

I think it truly depends. We don't know for sure...

how Mannimarco spent his time in Coldharbour. Chained to that altar he probably had no clue what was going on in Tamriel all the time. But if he was able to free himself or be freed by, let's say, some friendly Telvanni, he might have been wandering around in Coldharbour for a while, and probably also spoken with other people.

metheglyn wrote: »

Or when the Worm Cult seemed to be trying to get back in good with Molag Bal in the prologue

Which I think is a very strange thing by itself. We'll see how things will look like in Part 2; maybe that's just another plot hole?

metheglyn wrote: »

Ok, ok, what would he think, then?

Do Altmer swear words exist?

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Though I did find the idea that Vanny had created it quite intriguing, and I would like to know more about that.

Now,

it looks a little kitschy somehow, but, maybe that's not unexpected. In any way I'd find it interesting to know more about what it does or what Vanny had in mind while creating it like this; or lets say I would have, but I truly think that thing will turn into the Omnipotent Miracle Staff Of Solves-Every-Problem until the end of Part 2, which makes the thing completely uninteresting to me somehow.

Not just to you; I also wouldn't like that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, this is a sequel, so narratively they could stick to her not being in the messages, and people just have to keep that in mind. But whatever content comes after this year: will it be moving us forward in time, or do we go back to that "all happening at once" notion?

If we still get bigger story content updates over the next few years, I could imagine we'll get sequels to earlier chapters - starting with Dark Brotherhood 2 next year, and maybe Morrowind 2 at some point. That might also be the point when they'll add continuations to older stories directly to the same map, although I fear that might end with huge chaos, as all places (except for maybe a few new ones) would already show as explored on the map and it would probably become a bit difficult to find the new quests in the area?

And let's not get started with people who haven't played the old content yet. I already find throwing the guy screaming for Guildmaster Merric in every faction starter area, confusing new players who have neither played the base game guild questlines nor the old main quest yet, not to have been a good decision. If you'd now just mix everything up and have a whole map of old part 1 and new part 2 quests to explore... With a lot of care it might function, but after the thing with the new prologue (They could at least have added some info box that this story is a continuation of older quests and playing them out of order causes logic problems, couldn't they?) - I'm very uncertain about how this would turn out.

The two characters I've done the prologue on had done the fighters guild quest in its entirety, so for them it worked. But I have characters who (for role play reasons) don't belong to the fighters guild, which means I'll have to work harder for why they care about the head of the guild going missing. But yes, placing Azah in the early zones (story-wise) seems an odd choice.

If they do try to do more sequel content, but keep it in known areas, that could get messy. They might have to phase things quite a bit. Like for Morrowind 2, if we go back to Vivec City and the cantons are still under the same level of construction? How long of a vacation did the overseer take?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

then there's also that whole possible arc where Vanny tries to reach the last shreds of humanity in Mannimarco, to turn him from his path, and fails. Would Vanny try to reach him? I'm not sure. But just as Mannimarco might have had that hint of doubt and yet gone ahead to do it, Vanny might have had that moment where he thought he could convince him (despite not having been able to in the past) and tried that. And I'm not sure why I put this pure speculation part in spoiler tags, but I did, so there it is.

I think he would;

He purposedly lets his enemies - which should mainly consist of the Worm Cult - kidnap him, after all. No, but seriously, I can imagine that it might be difficult for him to give up hope. Especially from what we know about how he was when he was younger - people don't change entirely, after all. They could make such a tragic story about it, and give us deeper lore about the both of them. So far it's just so little, which is strange for two so central characters.

I would love a truly tragic, well-done, complex story about the two of them. They are worth it!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Not to go off on a Tribunal tangent here, but Sotha Sil is one of my favorite lore characters of all time because of his complexity and, yes, the tragic figure aspect.

Same. If ESO could present something like that once more, about another central character that still has rather little lore... I think it would be well-received, if the writing is good. And they do have good writers, when I look at Zerith-var's questline or the quest in Corelanya Manor. The person or team who wrote the latter one could probably write something interesting about Mannimarco's background, too.

I agree!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How much do you think a captured soul can find out about the goings-on in Tamriel? Do you think any daedra would have filled him in via taunting?

I think it truly depends. We don't know for sure...

how Mannimarco spent his time in Coldharbour. Chained to that altar he probably had no clue what was going on in Tamriel all the time. But if he was able to free himself or be freed by, let's say, some friendly Telvanni, he might have been wandering around in Coldharbour for a while, and probably also spoken with other people.

I wonder if they ever will make that choice canon.

Because he was also freed by a hardened Altmer, even though everyone else around him disapproved. And considering who Mannimarco is, I'm guessing he could learn a lot while his soul wandered Coldharbour.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Or when the Worm Cult seemed to be trying to get back in good with Molag Bal in the prologue

Which I think is a very strange thing by itself. We'll see how things will look like in Part 2; maybe that's just another plot hole?

I hope not.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ok, ok, what would he think, then?

Do Altmer swear words exist?

They do, but they're super fancy and polysyllabic. Not for the faint of heart.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

The two characters I've done the prologue on had done the fighters guild quest in its entirety, so for them it worked. But I have characters who (for role play reasons) don't belong to the fighters guild, which means I'll have to work harder for why they care about the head of the guild going missing. But yes, placing Azah in the early zones (story-wise) seems an odd choice.

The biggest problem from my point of view is that for a new player, Merric isn't the guildmaster yet, but still they have that yelled at them, in case of Davon's Watch, when ever they enter or leave the city. Or try to get to the crafting boards. Or use the crafting tables. Or go to the harbour. Or to the bank. From my point of view, that's a design mistake. It's also a huge spoiler for the Fighters Guild questline.

metheglyn wrote: »

If they do try to do more sequel content, but keep it in known areas, that could get messy. They might have to phase things quite a bit. Like for Morrowind 2, if we go back to Vivec City and the cantons are still under the same level of construction? How long of a vacation did the overseer take?

An extra map would be okay, I guess. We can already now choose two different versions of some places, in particular some group dungeons. It might still feel weird somehow, to be easily able to travel between Vvardenfell 1 and Vvardenfell 2 10 years later.

metheglyn wrote: »

I would love a truly tragic, well-done, complex story about the two of them. They are worth it!

How do we convince ZOS? I'm honestly worried they might just kill one of them off before giving him the lore he'd deserve because they think people don't like him anyway. It would be a waste of an interesting character background, really. And I'd think if more people knew about that - or also saw other sides of him - they might not dislike him that much anymore at all.

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder if they ever will make that choice canon.

They might just say "someone" freed him, and maybe give us an extra dialogue option to say it was us, if we chose to.

metheglyn wrote: »

They do, but they're super fancy and polysyllabic. Not for the faint of heart.

Do they in any way involve words that indicate uncleanliness? Or is that too disgusting?

I'm still wondering...

what that whole theorizing about who Wormblood was (with claims he was a relative of Mannimarco, etc) was about. It just makes no sense for a character that immediately gets discarded again. Or it's not over for him yet indeed. Will we ever see his face? Or maybe he doesn't even really have an individual one and it's just Mannimarco's character model with a mask anyway. Maybe we'll still see it in Part 2, and if it's just Mannimarco's usual looks, they could just make something up about flesh sculpting. I'd think a powerful wizard and/or necromancer can surely do something like that.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The two characters I've done the prologue on had done the fighters guild quest in its entirety, so for them it worked. But I have characters who (for role play reasons) don't belong to the fighters guild, which means I'll have to work harder for why they care about the head of the guild going missing. But yes, placing Azah in the early zones (story-wise) seems an odd choice.

The biggest problem from my point of view is that for a new player, Merric isn't the guildmaster yet, but still they have that yelled at them, in case of Davon's Watch, when ever they enter or leave the city. Or try to get to the crafting boards. Or use the crafting tables. Or go to the harbour. Or to the bank. From my point of view, that's a design mistake. It's also a huge spoiler for the Fighters Guild questline.

That's true. I hadn't considered the spoiler part of it. Seems like it would fit better if he was in the final zone for each alliance.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If they do try to do more sequel content, but keep it in known areas, that could get messy. They might have to phase things quite a bit. Like for Morrowind 2, if we go back to Vivec City and the cantons are still under the same level of construction? How long of a vacation did the overseer take?

An extra map would be okay, I guess. We can already now choose two different versions of some places, in particular some group dungeons. It might still feel weird somehow, to be easily able to travel between Vvardenfell 1 and Vvardenfell 2 10 years later.

I think that's a problem in general for MMO style games, having time move on in already established areas. WoW famously (or infamously, depending on perspective) redid all their base-game zones for one of their expansions, so the earlier versions were gone. I know ESO has done slightly different versions of the same space for dungeons, and that's a good way to show progression of those stories, but dungeons are fairly small, contained spaces. Technically, though, I don't see why it couldn't work for full zones. People would just have to get used to choosing the version they wanted.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I would love a truly tragic, well-done, complex story about the two of them. They are worth it!

How do we convince ZOS? I'm honestly worried they might just kill one of them off before giving him the lore he'd deserve because they think people don't like him anyway. It would be a waste of an interesting character background, really. And I'd think if more people knew about that - or also saw other sides of him - they might not dislike him that much anymore at all.

I have no idea how. I don't know how far in advance they plan their storylines, though I would think this new season format could give them the chance to fit something smaller in between other stories. There's just such potential there for a really good story, though fitting the Vestige into it somehow might be difficult.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They do, but they're super fancy and polysyllabic. Not for the faint of heart.

Do they in any way involve words that indicate uncleanliness? Or is that too disgusting?

They're curse words; they go beyond the norms.

Syldras wrote: »

I'm still wondering...

what that whole theorizing about who Wormblood was (with claims he was a relative of Mannimarco, etc) was about. It just makes no sense for a character that immediately gets discarded again. Or it's not over for him yet indeed. Will we ever see his face? Or maybe he doesn't even really have an individual one and it's just Mannimarco's character model with a mask anyway. Maybe we'll still see it in Part 2, and if it's just Mannimarco's usual looks, they could just make something up about flesh sculpting. I'd think a powerful wizard and/or necromancer can surely do something like that.

I did wonder

why he was wearing a mask. And why we only saw him in projection form. We don't get up close to him during the stage of the quest where he shows up. We're up by the bell when he walks in, and then we only see him from a distance in the Coloured Rooms. I honestly couldn't tell if it was Mannimarco's model, and I was trying to see. I still don't understand why, since Mannimarco's soul is now free from Coldharbour, he couldn't just move back into his original body (setting aside wherever the current location of the sarcophagus is). What was it Wormblood said? "I wasn't supposed to be the vessel!" Which is weird, because they weren't planning for a vessel, were they? They were planning a sacrifice. Unless he selected a vessel in those few minutes after the Gift of Death was rendered null and void and before they pulled Mannimarco's soul from Coldharbour. In which case I guess the intended vessel was just rando cultist number five, or whatever. Or Farinor. She didn't get much explanation or an arc either. I really hope Wormblood's fate and identity are somehow part of part 2.

And, since you mentioned flesh sculpting, wasn't that something the Ayleids used to do fairly regularly? Or was that a different kind of flesh manipulation than you were thinking?

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

I have no idea how. I don't know how far in advance they plan their storylines, though I would think this new season format could give them the chance to fit something smaller in between other stories.

I'd normally expect the storywriting to have been finished rather early in the creation process of a new chapter (or story dlc or what ever to call it). How early? Good question. All I can remember is that when the 2 companions they sold seperately were announced, I had once asked, in March or April or so, about some details, and got the reply that it's too early to answer them, they wouldn't know yet. When were they released? Around the normal drop date for the Q4 content, right? So about early November. Then again, of course, these were just two storylines, which isn't really comparable with a whole chapter. Although... the main story this time wasn't long either (makes me wonder right now how it would compare in scope with Zerith-var's storyline, for example; it's been a while).

metheglyn wrote: »

There's just such potential there for a really good story, though fitting the Vestige into it somehow might be difficult.

It would probably need something else in the story, too, to make it work. CWC also had a plot beyond "Explore Sil's tragic past" - actually that was just a side aspect, but so incredibly impactful!

It's a pity, by the way, that there's no way to find out who wrote which quests or characters (except for a few singular chance mentions in streams of so - that's how I found out that Sil and Revus were written by the same person; it somehow wasn't surprising, there's just something to them that I specifically like). I'd be really curious about who wrote the Corelanya Manor quest and what else that person wrote (I'd somehow suspect it's the same person that also wrote the story at Tel Dreloth on Telvanni Peninsula - that thing somehow reminded me of this story a lot, and I'd assume there's a writer on the team who might enjoy gothic and romanticist literature). I think that every writer might have a bit of a "signature" (would be normal, at least, I've also been told I have a rather distinctive style, and there are certainly characters I can write or play better than I could others), so knowing which quests are written by the same person would be interesting - and who knows, sometimes maybe surprising.

metheglyn wrote: »

They're curse words; they go beyond the norms.

But you wouldn't want some poor Altmer to faint or start crying upon hearing them either!

metheglyn wrote: »

why he was wearing a mask.

It must have significance. It basically screams for some kind of reveal.

metheglyn wrote: »

And why we only saw him in projection form. We don't get up close to him during the stage of the quest where he shows up. We're up by the bell when he walks in, and then we only see him from a distance in the Coloured Rooms.

Well,

I also saw him wrestle with that cat, but yes, also in that case there was some artificial distance between us because they fought on a pedestral unreachable for the player character.

metheglyn wrote: »

I still don't understand why, since Mannimarco's soul is now free from Coldharbour, he couldn't just move back into his original body (setting aside wherever the current location of the sarcophagus is).

Maybe...

it's too damaged and he wanted something more alive-looking? I mean, we've been told that necromancers can restore remains completely to their former form, but obviously, Mannimarco was in a hurry and that process might take a while. It means of course that he might just restore and swap into his old body later (possibly giving Wormblood control over his own body again, if it's just a kind of possession right now - then we'd indeed have 2 evil wizards).

metheglyn wrote: »

What was it Wormblood said? "I wasn't supposed to be the vessel!" Which is weird, because they weren't planning for a vessel, were they?

Maybe any Worm Cultist would have been sufficient, I don't know.

metheglyn wrote: »

They were planning a sacrifice.

That wouldn't have worked,

for the "that life has to be given freely, without coercion or deceit" part.

metheglyn wrote: »

And, since you mentioned flesh sculpting, wasn't that something the Ayleids used to do fairly regularly? Or was that a different kind of flesh manipulation than you were thinking?

The Ayleid pastime...

was more like... creating statues out of people. Although I don't know whether they might have also formed them a little in the process. But anyway, I'd guess that some mage would be able to change facial features or the entire appearance of a person. So no matter which body Mannimarco would use as his new one - assuming the old one couldn't be used anymore - there would probably be magical means to make it look like the old one at least.