The writing for the upcoming story content - some thoughts on the latest news article

Syldras

Heren wrote: »

There was a couple of funny characters in Alinor I remember, the haughty cook that has different lines when you're an altmer, and a bosmer grocer who also has different lines when you are yourself a bosmer. I really liked that, and I sure wish there was more of these.

I also love dialogues where your character's background is taken into consideration, but unfortunately, this has decreased very much over the years. Playing Morrowind and Summerset as a native first and then as a non-native in a different run was certainly interesting. But in Greymoor it wasn't even recognized most of the time if your character was a vampire...

Heren wrote: »

It's certainly irritating to not be able to respond to a NPC, but it's also interesting to consider why he's saying that kind of things ( I don't think Azzah ever struck me as being particularly bright

He might not be the brightest, but I would assume that as a Prince he was certainly trained in diplomacy? Didn't he even say something like that in the prologue? I'm not sure about it anymore. But if he had received such a training, which would make sense for someone of his status, his behavior was even stranger, because he clearly didn't know how to word things carefully or when to better keep his mouth shut.

Heren wrote: »

But generaly speaking, removing controversial statement from NPC, toning down their attitude to make them more likeable, is not really a solution I think, but more like a regression and a surrender. I understand it's annoying to have a recuring NPC that you dislike, I've read some comment about the novelist in High Isle, personaly I didn't have much problem with her, but I agree it can be far, far from a pleasant experience and leading to a more broad dislike of the quests. On the other hand, I rather have interesting characters rather than mild, non-offensive ones.

Generally, I don't care much for inoffensive characters either, but I think the context is important. And if a character wants your help, than logically, that person would try to be friendly to you and not offend you, right? No matter what that person might actually think. It would actually be interesting if you clearly notice that some behavior might be facade, or if a character treated you in a friendly way and then you find personal notes of that character (they always have their diaries lying around for some reason) and you see how that person really thinks.

I think I just generally assume that, when you want someone's help, you'd be careful what you say. And the story background of the Solstice main story is basically a diplomatic mission. We have the Mages and the Fighters Guild there, but also representatives from the 3 different war factions. There would naturally be conflicts and feelings of animosity, but I'd think because of that, people would be extra careful when talking, so the whole thing doesn't collapse.

Heren wrote: »

On this I fully agree, it would be great ( or just normal ) that NPC display a bit more intelligence, generaly speaking - and for the next step, to just think if what they are saying sound as good when it is said in an empty room, as when it is said in front of 'real' people.

The big question I always ask myself in such situations is really: Is it written like this on purpose, or did they not think about whether the involved people talk and act in a plausible way, or might there be a lack of knowledge on a subject or how people might think or talk in a specific context? Which is normal - no one knows everything, there are also topics I don't have a clue about at all! But if I still needed to write about them, I would inform myself thoroughly before writing, or, even better, get in contact with someone who is familiar with the topic and can help me or at least double-check whether what I wrote is plausible.

@metheglyn I just saw the post you made in the meantime - I'll reply to it later!

metheglyn

Heren wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I really wish they would make the immersion decision, especially when it comes to recognizing the player character's race. They did used to do this to some extent, but there still have been plenty of instances of Altmer talking to my Altmer as if he wouldn't know anything about Altmer customs and ways.

There was a couple of funny characters in Alinor I remember, the haughty cook that has different lines when you're an altmer, and a bosmer grocer who also has different lines when you are yourself a bosmer. I really liked that, and I sure wish there was more of these.

Even for reminders or for giving lore information, different wording according to the race of your character ( not even talking about some kind of rp character sheet you could do, that could be quite nice for dialogues et interactions with npc ) would be great, and help avoid the kind of situation you're mentioning ( and make feel players a bit more part of the world, rather than just an eternal spectator of it ).

Summerset did have some effort towards recognizing player character race, but even with that, the native Altmer still referred to my Altmer as an outsider, and spoke to him as if he didn't truly understand Altmer customs. There was no leeway for my character to actually be from Summerset, which was nutty to me. But so it is with the Elder Scrolls games in general: the player character is the eternal outsider. However, at least there was some recognition, and I do miss that in later chapters.

Heren wrote: »

But generaly speaking, removing controversial statement from NPC, toning down their attitude to make them more likeable, is not really a solution I think, but more like a regression and a surrender. I understand it's annoying to have a recuring NPC that you dislike, I've read some comment about the novelist in High Isle, personaly I didn't have much problem with her, but I agree it can be far, far from a pleasant experience and leading to a more broad dislike of the quests. On the other hand, I rather have interesting characters rather than mild, non-offensive ones. I personaly don't have much love for the emo puppet of Hermaus Mora we had to endure lately, because she's mostly a puppet ( and because the 'all is written' thing is not my cup of tea ), but, well, I don't have the possibility to call the manager Hermaus Mora and get another talking interface, so...

I agree that every quest npc being likeable would be bland, and everyone's going to have their own likes and dislikes when it comes to characters. For me, it's the inability to have any control over my reaction to these npcs that bothers me. For the Dibella cultists, why couldn't there be a line that let me express my disagreement with their mission? Something to make it seem like I had my own opinion, at least. There are other quests in Solstice where we can do that, so why not in this one?

Heren wrote: »

To think about it, it's incredibly sad to consider that you hade uncle Sheo saying to us to show, don't tell, while playing along with him to get Eyevea back. When I did that quest, it was insanely funny - now, I think it has gone a bit sour.

Sort of off-topic, but Sheogorath as presented in this game is never a character I liked. He's so irritating to me, and most of my motivation for going along with Shalidor (who, honestly, I also didn't like and didn't care if he got his precious island back) was to spite Sheogorath. That, and make sure Valaste didn't fall victim to two insane and powerful beings who wanted to use her for their own ends.

JemadarofCaerSalis

metheglyn wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It really is the dialogue options that are turning me off the main quest. I actually stopped playing last night after being irritated by them one too many times. I understand they're limited as to how many dialogue options can be presented and every statement isn't going to have something for everyone's character, but when the only thing I can ask someone is a question about something we already covered, I get annoyed.

That doesn't sound good... I'll continue questing later today, maybe a bit slower than usual, and of course I'll post here if something grabs my attention.

There are several points in the second and third stages of the main quest I wanted to hear your opinion on--some of which relates to what we talked about in the Wormblood thread.

Oh, I did find that bantam guar quest. That was fun! Lighthearted, but also fit with the world. The dialogue with the npc also contained a significant (or so it seemed to me) clue presented quite off-handedly. It fit with the character, though, so their manner of delivery didn't bother me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

No, there are quite a few npcs that you cannot interact with and they have no greeting and don't seem to even talk to each other. I found it odd, too, and thought it might be bugged at first. But I guess they all took a vow of silence.

Strange. Now I really wonder whether it's a bug, something they could not finish on time, or something they decided wasn't necessary (which I would disagree with - it had always been a big part of the atmosphere of a place). Together with the maps getting smaller, not having any incursions on the new map, no new ToT deck and no new companions as a part of a new story release, it doesn't look good to me.

Yes, even if the npcs have only one line, it can still add to the overall atmosphere and at least gives the impression they are beings who inhabit the world and have their own lives, rather than just being easy targets for pickpocketing and blade of woe endeavors. I came across one npc today who was hammering at a locked door. "What's going on here?" I wondered, but couldn't interact with the npc to find out. I could only assume they had locked themselves out of the house and were trying to get someone to let them in, but someone didn't want to because the house is small and they were enjoying the privacy of being the only one inside.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As an Altmer player character, it made me fairly annoyed with him and I wanted to set him straight on a few facts. Or maybe at least tell him the elves of Sunport probably wouldn't appreciate his view of history, so if he wants their help, maybe he shouldn't talk in such terms about his ancestors' colonizing ways.

What I find especially strange this time is that I've come across several quest givers now who are absolutely not likeable at all, which then leads to the question why I would work with them. It's astonishing as I'd think that writers know that you can't make a questgiver too off-putting because that limits the player's interest to help that person.

I still think the best example for that problem are the Dibella worshippers/cultists (my Dunmer has a clear opinion on what would be the better term...) who actually almost seem obsessive with their ways, despite their friendly and mild wording? The quest was weird, but then having one of them not being able to understand why the locals don't want their city "adorned" with Dibella murals all over... Weird. Just weird. And again, I think that delusional, brainwashed or over-zealous npcs have their place in a world, but the player having to play along with that - that feels strange.

I did so badly want to tell the Dibella worshippers that they didn't seem any different to me than cultists. A couple of the followers were easier to talk to than the quest giver, or at least seemed to have more sense to them. (Not the orc).

I have had to stop and think of motivations for my character to assist some of these npcs, though. Sometimes I feel like the only reason he would take these quests is because Bastian is reminding him to think of the bigger picture (there's very much a 'gathering of forces' vibe in Solstice). And Bastian's motivation is easy enough, since one of his lines is: Let's go find someone to help...and maybe get paid for it.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Reading what you and Syldras and Heren wrote, it is reminding me very strongly of that, where either you have to agree with biased recounting of history, or one history is obviously meant to be the 'correct' one, without being able to present your side.

Which, to me, is yet another simplification, because, at least in my opinion, no one society is 'perfect'. There are always ways that one society can be made better, and yet, I often see stories where one society is obviously the favored one, while other societies always fall short. When compared side by side it looks like some of those product comparisons where one product has all red X's and the favored product (typically the one that paid for the comparison) has all green Checks.

It is yet another example of black and white thinking. Those who are supposed to be heroes are always 'good' and everything about them is in the 'good category' and they aren't allowed flaws. While the ones who aren't the heroes, even if they aren't the villains, are often riddled with flaws, and any individual of that category who doesn't fall within that, is often depicted as the exception and somehow better than the rest of their category.

It comes down to what we were all discussing earlier in the thread: lack of subtlety, nuance, and complexity. Why it's going this way can be debated (and you and Syldras had some really good thoughts on the matter) but it seems to be the going thing, at least in ESO.

Sadly, it isn't just ESO, the story I mentioned earlier, they had made one of the characters in the original source material one of the non-human race (it was an AU, in the original there weren't any non-humans) and they toned his character WAY down. In the original, he was portrayed as a hot head, almost a bully, someone who often came across more like a villain than not, but in the story, most of his personality was just taken down 10 or so notches. They had a 'reason' for it, but still, it came across as yet another way of 'see how much better this non-human society and their members are!'.

It also isn't the first story that I have seen that has done this. It doesn't matter whether it is an original story or fanfiction. There are some writers, who despite being good writers, see things in black and white. Or at least portray things in black and white.

This can also go back to the 'irredeemible villains, nothing to like about them, evil for evil's sake' that started the thread. Though in the story I mentioned, they, in my opinion, went too far in the other direction (it is never the villain's fault, it is society who has failed them), too often this type of writing does happen, and people don't point out how it makes for one dimensional characters.

Sometimes a story doesn't call for nuanced characters, but those stories are typically more 'fluff' type stories that you read simply because you want to feel good, basically just shut down your brain and enjoy a story. (sort of like enjoying some comfort food). But, most of the time, good stories are hurt by one dimensional characters, whether they are the main character or not. I have seen a lot of one dimensional side characters who have hurt the main story because you could tell they were just put into the story for a very specific reason (and it is typically not to further the plot).

Hopefully, ESO will avoid the worst of things like that, and not having experienced the newest story I can't give my thoughts on that.

I will say that what I experienced in the West Weald was a mixed bag. There were a few instances where I was thinking 'yeah, this is nice!' but then others where I was lead around by the nose, like I couldn't be trusted to tie my own shoes, let alone wander off into the big wide world, or where I was treated as a particularly dumb, but useful! lackey.

There was at least one case where I was told by one character to tell another character something, but couldn't until I had finished speaking with all the other characters I needed to, and had advanced the quest, which Ican understand, but still slightly frustrating, because then the dialogue was reduced to 'so what did you learn? Oh, so and so told me to tell you X'. Instead of actually saying what I learned about the rest of the quest and giving my thoughts about what was happening.

Again, it was another one that I could almost immediately tell what was going on, but was still stuck 'playing dumb' until all the relevant information was found and then I could be told by the quest giver what was happening.

Still have a few other quests to finish in West Weald (trying to complete all side quests. One of the things I often do is complete the main quest in a zone, but then the gathering at the end never feels complete), but yeah, I am a bit concerned about the direction of the writing. At least with regards to player choices, because the rest of the writing isn't bad. Just how the player can respond to it.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

There are several points in the second and third stages of the main quest I wanted to hear your opinion on--some of which relates to what we talked about in the Wormblood thread.

Seems you're a little faster than me - but I'll certainly comment on them when I've reached those points!

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, I did find that bantam guar quest. That was fun! Lighthearted, but also fit with the world. The dialogue with the npc also contained a significant (or so it seemed to me) clue presented quite off-handedly. It fit with the character, though, so their manner of delivery didn't bother me.

I could really live well with having a generally more serious and nuanced story - and some lighthearted quests every now and then like that one. It would also give both - serious and funny quests - more "impact" somehow if there's variance and not everything is just overly funny (if everything is just a big joke fest, it just somehow has less weight). But anyway, I really liked that quest, too! That's really a lighthearted quest done well.

metheglyn wrote: »

I agree that every quest npc being likeable would be bland, and everyone's going to have their own likes and dislikes when it comes to characters. For me, it's the inability to have any control over my reaction to these npcs that bothers me. For the Dibella cultists, why couldn't there be a line that let me express my disagreement with their mission? Something to make it seem like I had my own opinion, at least. There are other quests in Solstice where we can do that, so why not in this one?

I think it probably is just a question of time and resources that they couldn't give us different dialogue options in all quests. But it does leave a strange feeling, doesn't it? From my point of view, if you can give your opinion in some quests, but not in others, especially if there's some moral background in the story, it makes it look like the moral was seen as undebatable - and therefore it has something that feels "lecturing" about it. I want to emphasize: I'm not saying that they really intend to lecture us, I'm saying if you can comment on many topics but in some cases you suddenly can't, then it gives you such a feeling - be it correct or not. That would be something I'd personally avoid, if I was a writer.

metheglyn

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Sometimes a story doesn't call for nuanced characters, but those stories are typically more 'fluff' type stories that you read simply because you want to feel good, basically just shut down your brain and enjoy a story. (sort of like enjoying some comfort food). But, most of the time, good stories are hurt by one dimensional characters, whether they are the main character or not. I have seen a lot of one dimensional side characters who have hurt the main story because you could tell they were just put into the story for a very specific reason (and it is typically not to further the plot).

Hopefully, ESO will avoid the worst of things like that, and not having experienced the newest story I can't give my thoughts on that.

I agree there is a place for less developed characters in a story/world. For example, Rigurt is fairly one-dimensional and while I don't care for him, he has his place in the world (hopefully far away from me!).

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I will say that what I experienced in the West Weald was a mixed bag. There were a few instances where I was thinking 'yeah, this is nice!' but then others where I was lead around by the nose, like I couldn't be trusted to tie my own shoes, let alone wander off into the big wide world, or where I was treated as a particularly dumb, but useful! lackey.

My West Weald experience was similar. I think, as with Solstice, the biggest annoyances for me came from the main quest, and this is really unfortunate, since the main quest is meant (I think) to be the star of the show.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

There was at least one case where I was told by one character to tell another character something, but couldn't until I had finished speaking with all the other characters I needed to, and had advanced the quest, which Ican understand, but still slightly frustrating, because then the dialogue was reduced to 'so what did you learn? Oh, so and so told me to tell you X'. Instead of actually saying what I learned about the rest of the quest and giving my thoughts about what was happening.

Again, it was another one that I could almost immediately tell what was going on, but was still stuck 'playing dumb' until all the relevant information was found and then I could be told by the quest giver what was happening.

Those frustrate me so much! Similar to how, if you explore and happened across some piece of writing or lore book that explains what's going on, then you have a quest where the npc says, "We need to figure out what they're up to!" you can't tell them, "Oh, I already found that evidence: here you go!" It gives the idea that everything is meant to happen in a very specific order, and curiosity and exploration aren't rewarded. Don't read that lore book until you're at the relevant step, and so forth.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Still have a few other quests to finish in West Weald (trying to complete all side quests. One of the things I often do is complete the main quest in a zone, but then the gathering at the end never feels complete), but yeah, I am a bit concerned about the direction of the writing. At least with regards to player choices, because the rest of the writing isn't bad. Just how the player can respond to it.

The gatherings at the end are more interesting if as many people are there as possible. Especially if they happen to be someone you maybe played a trick on, or didn't stop from going into a seemingly irreversible state, and then you have the chance to maybe mock them. Not that I would ever do that to a particular Dunmer. Oh no.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

There are several points in the second and third stages of the main quest I wanted to hear your opinion on--some of which relates to what we talked about in the Wormblood thread.

Seems you're a little faster than me - but I'll certainly comment on them when I've reached those points!

I've had more time to play than I thought I would. At any rate, I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, I did find that bantam guar quest. That was fun! Lighthearted, but also fit with the world. The dialogue with the npc also contained a significant (or so it seemed to me) clue presented quite off-handedly. It fit with the character, though, so their manner of delivery didn't bother me.

I could really live well with having a generally more serious and nuanced story - and some lighthearted quests every now and then like that one. It would also give both - serious and funny quests - more "impact" somehow if there's variance and not everything is just overly funny (if everything is just a big joke fest, it just somehow has less weight). But anyway, I really liked that quest, too! That's really a lighthearted quest done well.

I agree. Though we most often face mainly dire and serious threats, a little bit of lighthearted fun interspersed here and there is a nice reprieve. Plus, that bantam guar is pretty cute, and I like cute things.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I agree that every quest npc being likeable would be bland, and everyone's going to have their own likes and dislikes when it comes to characters. For me, it's the inability to have any control over my reaction to these npcs that bothers me. For the Dibella cultists, why couldn't there be a line that let me express my disagreement with their mission? Something to make it seem like I had my own opinion, at least. There are other quests in Solstice where we can do that, so why not in this one?

I think it probably is just a question of time and resources that they couldn't give us different dialogue options in all quests. But it does leave a strange feeling, doesn't it? From my point of view, if you can give your opinion in some quests, but not in others, especially if there's some moral background in the story, it makes it look like the moral was seen as undebatable - and therefore it has something that feels "lecturing" about it. I want to emphasize: I'm not saying that they really intend to lecture us, I'm saying if you can comment on many topics but in some cases you suddenly can't, then it gives you such a feeling - be it correct or not. That would be something I'd personally avoid, if I was a writer.

I do try to keep in mind that they are on a schedule and have a budget, but that doesn't stop me from wondering why certain decisions were made. I did feel like the Dibella leader was lecturing me a bit, and I wanted the chance to tell her to cut out the rhetoric. After all, we were able to tell the priestess of Meridia our feelings on daedra worship. Is it because Dibella isn't a daedra that we were supposed to just go along with it? If so, that really does come across as an undebatable moral stance.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Those frustrate me so much! Similar to how, if you explore and happened across some piece of writing or lore book that explains what's going on, then you have a quest where the npc says, "We need to figure out what they're up to!" you can't tell them, "Oh, I already found that evidence: here you go!" It gives the idea that everything is meant to happen in a very specific order, and curiosity and exploration aren't rewarded. Don't read that lore book until you're at the relevant step, and so forth.

It has often been a problem, but never as extreme as this time... It's still a bit hard to believe, especially as it could have easily been avoided.

Really gives me the feeling that they don't expect players to actually explore a map or go anywhere without having a quest marker pointing to that place (or not reading anything if the quest marker doesn't tell them to read that book now). Is that truly the way most people play this game? I wouldn't think so, but maybe I just don't want to believe it because it would be a little sad.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

I do try to keep in mind that they are on a schedule and have a budget, but that doesn't stop me from wondering why certain decisions were made. I did feel like the Dibella leader was lecturing me a bit, and I wanted the chance to tell her to cut out the rhetoric. After all, we were able to tell the priestess of Meridia our feelings on daedra worship. Is it because Dibella isn't a daedra that we were supposed to just go along with it? If so, that really does come across as an undebatable moral stance.

Oh, I did find the Dibella priestess to be lecturing as a character (that's probably what she's supposed to be as a missionary), but I don't think that the writers of the story were trying to lecture us, the players, about morals, through her. Let's take the "Alcohol is bad!" part for example - there are so many quests where alcohol is consumed, we can create alcoholic beverages, we see drunk people on non-Sanguine-related festivities often (like in Windhelm) - so I just don't believe that the priestess' rambling about getting drunk was supposed to be a message to the player (like those moral lessons at the end of He-Man or other shows for kids). But of course it still came across as rather strange to not be able to voice our opinion about her ramblings.

From an in-world perspective, it's interesting of course, that she's the worshipper of an Aedra, and while we could make a statement about Meridia in another quest, we could not make one here. Not sure if that was deliberate and the writer of this story assumed that "Aedra = good", "Daedra = bad", "Player character = good, so player character must like the Aedra". That would be disappointing because there are many cultures of Tamriel, including playable races, that do not worship the Aedra.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Those frustrate me so much! Similar to how, if you explore and happened across some piece of writing or lore book that explains what's going on, then you have a quest where the npc says, "We need to figure out what they're up to!" you can't tell them, "Oh, I already found that evidence: here you go!" It gives the idea that everything is meant to happen in a very specific order, and curiosity and exploration aren't rewarded. Don't read that lore book until you're at the relevant step, and so forth.

It has often been a problem, but never as extreme as this time... It's still a bit hard to believe, especially as it could have easily been avoided.

Really gives me the feeling that they don't expect players to actually explore a map or go anywhere without having a quest marker pointing to that place (or not reading anything if the quest marker doesn't tell them to read that book now). Is that truly the way most people play this game? I wouldn't think so, but maybe I just don't want to believe it because it would be a little sad.

I'm sure some people do play that way, though I couldn't say how many. Are they the norm? I have no idea. When I play, most of the other players I see are moving quickly through areas and there's no way I can know how much they're taking in. Yet I know they do expect people to explore from things I've heard them say on streams.

Technical limitations, maybe? Or other constraints? I don't know how difficult it would be to make it so the game recognizes you already read the important piece of information, and then have a dialogue choice reflect that if the condition is met.

There is a conversation in the main quest with Walks-in-Ash that at first irritated me (because my character would just not be that dumb) and then made me laugh (because it dealt with some questions we'd been talking about) and in the end I realized it was just a way to spell out the information for people not as familiar with certain game lore and concepts. Basically, they couldn't leave it to chance that someone might not understand.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do try to keep in mind that they are on a schedule and have a budget, but that doesn't stop me from wondering why certain decisions were made. I did feel like the Dibella leader was lecturing me a bit, and I wanted the chance to tell her to cut out the rhetoric. After all, we were able to tell the priestess of Meridia our feelings on daedra worship. Is it because Dibella isn't a daedra that we were supposed to just go along with it? If so, that really does come across as an undebatable moral stance.

Oh, I did find the Dibella priestess to be lecturing as a character (that's probably what she's supposed to be as a missionary), but I don't think that the writers of the story were trying to lecture us, the players, about morals, through her. Let's take the "Alcohol is bad!" part for example - there are so many quests where alcohol is consumed, we can create alcoholic beverages, we see drunk people on non-Sanguine-related festivities often (like in Windhelm) - so I just don't believe that the priestess' rambling about getting drunk was supposed to be a message to the player (like those moral lessons at the end of He-Man or other shows for kids). But of course it still came across as rather strange to not be able to voice our opinion about her ramblings.

From an in-world perspective, it's interesting of course, that she's the worshipper of an Aedra, and while we could make a statement about Meridia in another quest, we could not make one here. Not sure if that was deliberate and the writer of this story assumed that "Aedra = good", "Daedra = bad", "Player character = good, so player character must like the Aedra". That would be disappointing because there are many cultures of Tamriel, including playable races, that do not worship the Aedra.

Yeah, I didn't feel the writers were lecturing me, just that priestess. And though it fit her character and who she's meant to be (a rather zealous Dibella worshipper) it didn't fit my character to not be able to push back against her ideas.

I know many of people in Tamriel do worship one or more of the Aedra and see Daedric worship as wrong, so I suppose those two quests could be said to mirror that particular view about such worship. We, as characters in Tamriel, might be expected to follow along that line: certainly my Altmer character would be assumed to follow it. But, like you said, some cultures do not worship the Aedra. Why would a Dunmer (House or Ashlander) be at all concerned if a Dibella priestess was able to grow her ranks? Or Orcs, for that matter? Would they even want to listen to her going on about it? So that circles back to wishing the game took more account of the player character's race. Though then of course you get into issues of people who play a Dunmer who was raised to worship the Divines, and so forth, and wouldn't like being assumed to be a follower of the Tribunal.

Michaelkeir

Desiato wrote: »

They've been going down the path of Disney for a while now. I don't think it's even possible for TES to be edgy or nuanced anymore.

I agree with this statement. I’ve noticed that shift over the years.

Syldras

I'll reply in detail later, but I'm logged in right now and just came across this:



This looks literally more "Sanguine" than anything we saw in the 2 Sanguine quests.

Syldras

Still exploring the city, I get the feeling that the real debaucheries take place there...

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

Still exploring the city, I get the feeling that the real debaucheries take place there...

Lol, it certainly looks like it!

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Technical limitations, maybe? Or other constraints? I don't know how difficult it would be to make it so the game recognizes you already read the important piece of information, and then have a dialogue choice reflect that if the condition is met.

I think sometimes the quests and places could be constructed/structured better. Like not placing the lorebook with the "secret" info nearby, but further away or somewhere later in the story. Or not having the "What might have happened?!" dialogue at all, but let us just find the lorebook and then immediately talk about what we found.

And as for my find of yesterday (or when ever it was), just some kind of wall/door (or similar) that only opens when the story has progressed enough for the find to make sense, would have been enough.

metheglyn wrote: »

There is a conversation in the main quest with Walks-in-Ash that at first irritated me (because my character would just not be that dumb) and then made me laugh (because it dealt with some questions we'd been talking about) and in the end I realized it was just a way to spell out the information for people not as familiar with certain game lore and concepts. Basically, they couldn't leave it to chance that someone might not understand.

I think that would be something for extra dialogue that does not have to be chosen to proceed with the conversation, or really, for lorebooks placed nearby. Or the dialogues could be worded in a way that doesn't make you ask weird questions, but the necessary info gets delivered on the side somehow.

metheglyn wrote: »

I know many of people in Tamriel do worship one or more of the Aedra and see Daedric worship as wrong, so I suppose those two quests could be said to mirror that particular view about such worship. We, as characters in Tamriel, might be expected to follow along that line: certainly my Altmer character would be assumed to follow it. But, like you said, some cultures do not worship the Aedra. Why would a Dunmer (House or Ashlander) be at all concerned if a Dibella priestess was able to grow her ranks? Or Orcs, for that matter? Would they even want to listen to her going on about it? So that circles back to wishing the game took more account of the player character's race. Though then of course you get into issues of people who play a Dunmer who was raised to worship the Divines, and so forth, and wouldn't like being assumed to be a follower of the Tribunal.

I think it really would be best if they not make any assumptions about our character, but let us make our own statements through dialogue options. Most higher-ranked Telvanni don't really believe the Tribunal to be gods either, by the way. Life-prolonging magic is well-known, and how to harness energy from artifacts is no foreign concept either. They might respect the Tribunal (more or less), but they see them more like powerful mortals and might acknowledge what they achieved as people.

And one thing I wanted to add but forgot earlier: I was really astonished to see some npcs getting really drunk in Sunport, empty bottles lying around everywhere in some spaces - but we had none of that in the Sanguine quests. I honestly don't get it. I had assumed we didn't see it in the Sanguine quests because for some reasons they didn't want to portray it, but then I come across it in other places. So why not on Sanguine's parties? I can't think of a reason.

Varana

Two remarks, even if a bit late in these walls of text here :

- About Azah: I think it's kind of a reflection of the Redguard version of history. Most of the Ra Gada came to Tamriel when their continent was sinking into the sea, so in a certain way, they see themselves as refugees. And necromancy is obviously vile to them, so destroying necromancers is the right thing to do without regard to prior history or reasons...
It's a bit like listening to a traditional version of a nation's history and their heroes - celebrating the exploits and accomplishments of the Pilgrim Fathers or the settlers in the American West or stuff like that, i.e. a one-sided account that's more a "classic" historical narration. And you have these today as well all over the place, it's not like it makes him old-fashioned or not up to modern times.
Sure, when sitting down with him for a beer, it'd might be nice to have a more thorough discussion about historical biases and modern scholarly research or whatever. In a situation like this, where you're trying to take out a world-destroying cult, it'd be a bit out of place to get deeper into the topic. You let the remark pass like with the proverbial uncle on Thanksgiving.

- "Barbarian invasion" vs "migration period": That's just hard to portray in TES. On earth, in many cases you won't be able to tell invaders and natives physically apart, they do mix easily, and it's all muddled after a few generations. On Nirn, you have clear-cut races that will produce offspring that clearly belongs to one of them, and who will be physically very distinct. It's a binary setting, except for past examples like Bretons who have fossilised into a distinctive race themselves and are a lore oddity, not a normal occurrence. Mimicking real-world history is almost impossible there.

- Dibellists: I did get the strong impression that they're all not the brightest tools in the shed. And I do think that was intentional. They are another cult, after all (or "religious order", to be more politically correct ). Neither the main priestess outside nor the three trapped acolytes were particularly wise, so to speak. And when I came across the orc girl again in Sunport, my reaction was the same as seeing people handing out leaflets about Jesus returning in the mall. Yeah, knock yourself out, as long as you're not harming anyone.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Technical limitations, maybe? Or other constraints? I don't know how difficult it would be to make it so the game recognizes you already read the important piece of information, and then have a dialogue choice reflect that if the condition is met.

I think sometimes the quests and places could be constructed/structured better. Like not placing the lorebook with the "secret" info nearby, but further away or somewhere later in the story. Or not having the "What might have happened?!" dialogue at all, but let us just find the lorebook and then immediately talk about what we found.

And as for my find of yesterday (or when ever it was), just some kind of wall/door (or similar) that only opens when the story has progressed enough for the find to make sense, would have been enough.

I still wonder if that door being accessible at any time was perhaps an oversight. However, yes, tying that to the quest step would have been enough for that particular bit.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

There is a conversation in the main quest with Walks-in-Ash that at first irritated me (because my character would just not be that dumb) and then made me laugh (because it dealt with some questions we'd been talking about) and in the end I realized it was just a way to spell out the information for people not as familiar with certain game lore and concepts. Basically, they couldn't leave it to chance that someone might not understand.

I think that would be something for extra dialogue that does not have to be chosen to proceed with the conversation, or really, for lorebooks placed nearby. Or the dialogues could be worded in a way that doesn't make you ask weird questions, but the necessary info gets delivered on the side somehow.

Yes, I would have preferred either of those options, but that's not what we got. There's a point in the quest chain where you talk to Gabrielle shortly after that, and that has some optional dialogue choices for background information. For some reason, Walks-in-Ash didn't get that treatment.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I know many of people in Tamriel do worship one or more of the Aedra and see Daedric worship as wrong, so I suppose those two quests could be said to mirror that particular view about such worship. We, as characters in Tamriel, might be expected to follow along that line: certainly my Altmer character would be assumed to follow it. But, like you said, some cultures do not worship the Aedra. Why would a Dunmer (House or Ashlander) be at all concerned if a Dibella priestess was able to grow her ranks? Or Orcs, for that matter? Would they even want to listen to her going on about it? So that circles back to wishing the game took more account of the player character's race. Though then of course you get into issues of people who play a Dunmer who was raised to worship the Divines, and so forth, and wouldn't like being assumed to be a follower of the Tribunal.

I think it really would be best if they not make any assumptions about our character, but let us make our own statements through dialogue options. Most higher-ranked Telvanni don't really believe the Tribunal to be gods either, by the way. Life-prolonging magic is well-known, and how to harness energy from artifacts is no foreign concept either. They might respect the Tribunal (more or less), but they see them more like powerful mortals and might acknowledge what they achieved as people.

Ideally, yes. There are some pretty simple ways to go about it, too. I was thinking earlier of the housing quest, where you get a free inn room, and at one point you get the option to tell the real estate mogul npc that you don't worship daedra, either sincerely, or as a lie. That single line, just one version has [lie] in front of it, gives you more agency in how your character behaves than we've been getting lately in the main quest.

Syldras wrote: »

And one thing I wanted to add but forgot earlier: I was really astonished to see some npcs getting really drunk in Sunport, empty bottles lying around everywhere in some spaces - but we had none of that in the Sanguine quests. I honestly don't get it. I had assumed we didn't see it in the Sanguine quests because for some reasons they didn't want to portray it, but then I come across it in other places. So why not on Sanguine's parties? I can't think of a reason.

One of the mysteries of Sunport. There is a Sanguine wine vendor in the city; apparently her wares are very popular.

Varana wrote: »

About Azah: I think it's kind of a reflection of the Redguard version of history. Most of the Ra Gada came to Tamriel when their continent was sinking into the sea, so in a certain way, they see themselves as refugees. And necromancy is obviously vile to them, so destroying necromancers is the right thing to do without regard to prior history or reasons...
It's a bit like listening to a traditional version of a nation's history and their heroes - celebrating the exploits and accomplishments of the Pilgrim Fathers or the settlers in the American West or stuff like that, i.e. a one-sided account that's more a "classic" historical narration. And you have these today as well all over the place, it's not like it makes him old-fashioned or not up to modern times.
Sure, when sitting down with him for a beer, it'd might be nice to have a more thorough discussion about historical biases and modern scholarly research or whatever. In a situation like this, where you're trying to take out a world-destroying cult, it'd be a bit out of place to get deeper into the topic. You let the remark pass like with the proverbial uncle on Thanksgiving.

You have a point about time and place for certain discussions, but it was Azah who brought up the history lesson in the first place. Since he did, I don't think it would have been out of place for us to say something in return.

Varana wrote: »

Dibellists: I did get the strong impression that they're all not the brightest tools in the shed. And I do think that was intentional. They are another cult, after all (or "religious order", to be more politically correct ). Neither the main priestess outside nor the three trapped acolytes were particularly wise, so to speak. And when I came across the orc girl again in Sunport, my reaction was the same as seeing people handing out leaflets about Jesus returning in the mall. Yeah, knock yourself out, as long as you're not harming anyone.

Their leader comes across as more of a religious zealot to me than anything else. If you talk to her back in the city, you find she has no room in her heart for the one follower who left. Is that in line with Dibella's teachings? (I don't know; I don't follow Dibella). She basically seems to act like: her way is the only way. And she means specifically her way. The khajiit follower is more interesting to me, because he seems to accept differing views--he still follows Dibella, but can see why other ways are appealing to other people. As for the orc, she's got that new convert energy: maybe she'll stick with Dibella, maybe not.

Syldras

So. I finished exploring the city. I found the voice actors to have really done good work, and dialogues seem well-written - I just wished there weren't so many npcs who say absolutely nothing this time.

What I liked were the new emotes they gave npcs - just normal, everyday things, like a Khajiit brushing her fur - it might not be spectacular, but it contributes to the atmosphere, which is always appreciated.

The many fake doors are still a little disappointing, and I found one that was not marked in red, but entering still counted as trespassing.

The mix of Aedra and Daedra worship in the chapel looked rather strange to me, especially with shrines of Aedra and Daedra put closely next to each other. In human history there were often historical societies where old philosophies were conflated with new ones, or rural animistic views of the world mixed with the beliefs which originated from philosophers of socially higher, urban classes. But Aedra and Daedra are not in that sense an old and a new concept that could just be merged. And more so, they are actual beings in the world of TES who might disagree with this practice. Then I came across an npc who talked about how wonderfully tolerant Sunport was, everyone could just believe what ever they want. So that's probably what they want to portray in the chapel, but still, it seems off to me, especially because Aedra and Daedra are "alive" in this world, and honestly, would Aedra just accept Daedric shrines standing on the same pedestral next to theirs? And would Daedric Princes like that? It all seems rather doubtful to me. Is there any lorebook with more on that, specifically about the Sunport chapel maybe? I didn't find any, at least.

At least similarly astounding was the talk I had with Lector Volonaro, one of the daily quest givers. He literally tells you what's on the other side of the Wall:

"Stirk scouts report that cultists, Daedric monstrosities, and horrors abound. Not to mention a Reverse Planemeld. It is the collapse of one plane of existence into another. Molag Bal attempted to pull Nirn into his realm of Coldharbour before. Now these Worm Cultists wish to pick up where he left off. Except this time, they are pulling Coldharbour into Nirn."

And that's honestly fine, but it fully contradicts the mystery they made of it in their stream and news pieces.

One thing I found funny is how a lot of npcs I came across (not only within the city) talk about how important it is to protect the environment. Now, of course I get that Altmer love order, purity, cleanliness and beauty, and elves have, according to the cliché, a strong connection to nature anyway (maybe that was also one of the thoughts behind it), and of course, for a rural society, it's important to at least keep your land healthy enough so it's a productive source for food. Because you're dependent on it; if your crops or the wildlife dies, and you can neither grow anything anymore or hunt for food, you'll starve, plain and simple. So there's a certain need to be careful. But the way they're talking about it sounds rather modern, not like someone even just 150 years ago would have thought about the topic, let alone someone from a medieval society. The danger of starvation isn't even mentioned once. So this in a way comes across as a not very subtle message to me, to be honest.

Oh, and when I first entered the Mages Guild, a drunken Altmer sat in front of me, sprawling on his chair, one leg over the armrest, a chalice with wine in his hand. In front of him: A vulgar book...
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Hoglund's_Contributions_to_Nordic_Profanity
If this seems fine, I really wonder why the Sanguine quests were so tame.

I'll continue the main quest now I'm still at part 1 of 5. Just wanted to post this already, as maybe someone wants to read and comment in the meantime.

tsaescishoeshiner

I didn't find the villains here that interesting--they weren't fleshed out and didn't even get as much background as Sister Celdina, who has some journals and lore books describing how she came to be where she is. I didn't feel too motivated to help with Solstice's problem, which was "evil bad-bad enemies are attacking." I love a villain where I can sort of understand where they're coming from, or think that their motivations give me something to think about, or cause a complicated, dramatic situation with reveals and tension.

However, the villains in Solstice just sort of show up and start villaining.

But there is one saving grace: The main story, while having a big build-up and dramatic pay-off moments, is pretty short.

It manages to provide context and story for the rest of the zone while not taking up too much quest time. I'd prefer that than having it dragged out another few quests (unless they made it more interesting or nuanced). Another "end of the world" quest, while not my favorite, at least provides some action as long as I don't expect it to be my main enjoyment for the zone. Maybe one of the delve or public dungeon quests (which are short and not often favorites) could have looked into the villains' backgrounds more.

Syldras

I really don't rush, but... how long does one part of the main quest take this time? Seems they're extremely short. Just yesterday I hadn't started it at all, now I've completed the first 3 parts (of 5)...

Although I keep all descriptions vague (so no real story info, just roughly the situation or the absurdity of endlessly repetative dialogues...), I'm still going to put them into spoiler tags, just in case:

Part 2...

..."delighted" me with sleazy flirting (and a side npc saying how handsome the sleazy character is, because they all find Mary Sue super awesome, of course). If it remains on that level, I really hope they won't ever introduce companion romance (or at least not until they actually decide to acknowledge there are lots of different ways someone might flirt - and not only that one style they use all the time - which rather makes me facepalm instead of finding it funny or somehow appealing).

Also I had to ask Azah once more, without a way to skip it, what a Soul Reaper is...

It also included a long passage of sneaking/walking where no enemies were present, but only allies (all of them had no name or health bar, so I assume they were more akin to a talking chair or teapot than living beings) who told me in which direction to walk, which I'm not sure was necessary because there was only one way to go anyway (everything else was blocked, it was basically just like following a tunnel).

Then, later, I had to find a document while Skordo was just standing around doing nothing (Made me wonder whether he never learned to read, or what the issue is?)... I get situations where the narrations say a group splits up, the npc searches somewhere else and you get your area to search, but he really was just standing around doing nothing at all (except for watching me search, probably).

Generally, everything seemed rather obvious, and then I was given the chance to ask weird questions again, but at least they were optional this time.

Part 3...

...had me torture a prisoner to get info about a place I had already accidentally found before I even started the main quest. I mean, I wouldn't have had to torture him, but a dialogue option had something like "slap" or "punch" (not sure what it is in English), and I really wanted to try that, because I was curious whether it would be animated. Well, in case you wonder: You see the npc stagger, but you don't see yourself actually slapping him. No sound either. Which is something they really should add for future "flirty" situations (since High Isle, I dream of slapping Jakarn). Without a slapping sound it's... just not as satisfying.

Well, then I went to that place, and this time there were enemies present, and I was immediately kicked out by them again. Which was part of the story.

And, apart from being predictable, this part also had a wonderful ending dialogue...

Another projection of Vanus Galerion had appeared.
Azah: "That was Vanus Galerion!"
Gabrielle: "Vanus Galerion contacted me!"
Vestige: "Why is Vanus Galerion important?"
Gabrielle: "Vanus Galerion founded the Mages Guild!"
Vestige: "Vanus Galerion founded the Mages Guild?"

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

I really don't rush, but... how long does one part of the main quest take this time? Seems they're extremely short. Just yesterday I hadn't started it at all, now I've completed the first 3 parts (of 5)...

Although I keep all descriptions vague (so no real story info, just roughly the situation or the absurdity of endlessly repetative dialogues...), I'm still going to put them into spoiler tags, just in case:

Part 2...

..."delighted" me with sleazy flirting (and a side npc saying how handsome the sleazy character is, because they all find Mary Sue super awesome, of course). If it remains on that level, I really hope they won't ever introduce companion romance (or at least not until they actually decide to acknowledge there are lots of different ways someone might flirt - and not only that one style they use all the time - which rather makes me facepalm instead of finding it funny or somehow appealing).

Also I had to ask Azah once more, without a way to skip it, what a Soul Reaper is...

It also included a long passage of sneaking/walking where no enemies were present, but only allies (all of them had no name or health bar, so I assume they were more akin to a talking chair or teapot than living beings) who told me in which direction to walk, which I'm not sure was necessary because there was only one way to go anyway (everything else was blocked, it was basically just like following a tunnel).

Then, later, I had to find a document while Skordo was just standing around doing nothing (Made me wonder whether he never learned to read, or what the issue is?)... I get situations where the narrations say a group splits up, the npc searches somewhere else and you get your area to search, but he really was just standing around doing nothing at all (except for watching me search, probably).

Generally, everything seemed rather obvious, and then I was given the chance to ask weird questions again, but at least they were optional this time.

I'm at the same point you are. They do seem to be going by rather quickly, but I am also putting them off, and like I mentioned before, stopping out of mild annoyance at the dialogue.

I was really annoyed at having to ask Azah what a Soul Reaper is. I was there when they were discovered! So instead I used the other option, thinking that would get me out of it. "What do we do next?" I asked (a sensible question). And he launched into long-ranging plans about building up forces to attack the wall. Wait, what? It had very much the feeling of the post main quest dialogue you get when you have to wait for the next content drop. And it didn't get me out of having to ask about soul reapers. So why is it there? At stage two of the main quest?

So, I'm curious. When you talked to Raz at that estate where we rescued the regent, and he was all "You go on, I'll escort the lady," and you had the chance to flirt with him, how was yours worded? Because the way the dialogue went, and he talked about charming Altmer ladies, or something (I forget the exact wording) my flirt option was to say, "You have a thing for Altmer? Well I have a thing for (whatever description they gave for him)." And at first I thought that was because the game was recognizing my character as Altmer, who was seizing on the chance to flirt with someone who is clearly into Altmer. But I suppose player character race recognition is too much to hope for at this point. I did not take that option, because my character wouldn't flirt with Raz, so I don't know how that particular conversation played out. I just teased him about his flirting ways, because I've known him long enough to do so.

Syldras wrote: »

Part 3...

...had me torture a prisoner to get info about a place I had already accidentally found before I even started the main quest. I mean, I wouldn't have had to torture him, but a dialogue option had something like "slap" or "punch" (not sure what it is in English), and I really wanted to try that, because I was curious whether it would be animated. Well, in case you wonder: You see the npc stagger, but you don't see yourself actually slapping him. No sound either. Which is something they really should add for future "flirty" situations (since High Isle, I dream of slapping Jakarn). Without a slapping sound it's... just not as satisfying.

Well, then I went to that place, and this time there were enemies present, and I was immediately kicked out by them again. Which was part of the story.

Answering spoilers in spoilers!

The dialogue option in English was to punch. This part annoyed me greatly. So here we have this worm cultist who Walks-in-Ash subdued and took prisoner, and she tells us to question him because he knows her methods (or something like that). Ok, fine. I question. Cultist gives me attitude. I threaten, cultist scoffs at me. I punch one more time, cultist gives information. Then I go report in to Walks, and she acts like I just committed some horrendous act. Set aside the fact that this cultist, not five minutes ago, would have been all too happy to kill us and send our souls to whatever the cult wants them for, she outright told me to get information from him and then was bothered by me punching him all of twice.

Then we go to the caves and find what we find and get swept away and we talk to Walks again, and literally the only thing we can ask is, "Why do they want Mannimarco?" Really? Really? You think we couldn't have figured that gem out on our own? I was so irritated, but I admit then I got amused because my stupid as rocks Vestige got to ask Walks all the questions we'd been pondering here in the forum. "What state is his corpse in?" "Where'd the box come from?" and so forth. It doesn't make up for being forced into the role of dummy, but it did save me from total irritation.

Syldras wrote: »

And, apart from being predictable, this part also had a wonderful ending dialogue...

Another projection of Vanus Galerion had appeared.
Azah: "That was Vanus Galerion!"
Gabrielle: "Vanus Galerion contacted me!"
Vestige: "Why is Vanus Galerion important?"
Gabrielle: "Vanus Galerion founded the Mages Guild!"
Vestige: "Vanus Galerion founded the Mages Guild?"

Yeah, I figured you'd just love that line of dialogue. To be fair, that was optional, and I initially chose it because it started with something that didn't necessarily sound like I had no clue. "Tell me about Vanus Galerion." I thought Gabrielle might, from having known and worked with him for so long, have some interesting details. But then when I saw my option was to ask, in stupid wonder, that he founded the Mages Guild, I noped out.

In part of her conversation, she reminds me that Vanus was captured at the Earth Forge. Uh...nope. That's not where he got pulled into that ground portal. Seems like the writers either forgot that, or it was changed at some point and not corrected in dialogue.

But the best part of the dialogue was when I had the chance to say the communication from Vanus could be a trap, and Gabrielle told me that wasn't likely because "this isn't the first time he's allowed himself to be captured to get close to his enemies." Since his Coldharbour escapade was very much not something he willingly did, it painted this picture for me of Vanny going around getting captured on purpose, like a hobby or a fetish. Like this is just something he does because, hey, why not? (Really, how many enemies does he have?). And then I thought: A-ha, that's what he does with all his time and why he was so vague when I asked him what he'd been up to!

I enjoyed your notes on your tour of the city, by the way. What I enjoyed most about the city was talking to npcs and reading lore books. It did have a very accepting vibe of "everyone just gets along" and the Clavicus Vile cultist I talked to pointed out that everyone is allowed to worship who they want. I wonder if that came about because Clan Corelanya suffered from belief suppression in the past. I was initially surprised to see the Aedra shrines in the chapel of the Three Queens, but if they really are into letting everyone choose who to worship, I guess it fits that they are there. I don't imagine the deities in question would be all that into it, but how often do they show up?

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

So, I'm curious. When you talked to Raz at that estate where we rescued the regent, and he was all "You go on, I'll escort the lady," and you had the chance to flirt with him, how was yours worded? Because the way the dialogue went, and he talked about charming Altmer ladies, or something (I forget the exact wording) my flirt option was to say, "You have a thing for Altmer? Well I have a thing for (whatever description they gave for him)." And at first I thought that was because the game was recognizing my character as Altmer, who was seizing on the chance to flirt with someone who is clearly into Altmer. But I suppose player character race recognition is too much to hope for at this point. I did not take that option, because my character wouldn't flirt with Raz, so I don't know how that particular conversation played out. I just teased him about his flirting ways, because I've known him long enough to do so.

I already replied it in a private message because we had been talking about it earlier, but I think I'd post it here, too, in case people are curious:

As a male Dunmer I had the following options (roughly translated):
Neutral: "Let's just get this task done."
Funny: "You just try to spend time alone with the regent."
Flirty: "I'm jealous, maybe we can spend some alone time, too."

I chose the neutral one and got told "Your words hurt me.", with no comment on my character's race. Which wasn't really the best reply, from my point of view, because it sounds like guilt-tripping, which I find just (or even more) annoying than the "flirting", but the dialogue was over, so I couldn't say anything to that then. So basically you've just gotten deeper into the annoying situation, but nothing really changed.

metheglyn wrote: »

The dialogue option in English was to punch. This part annoyed me greatly. So here we have this worm cultist who Walks-in-Ash subdued and took prisoner, and she tells us to question him because he knows her methods (or something like that). Ok, fine. I question. Cultist gives me attitude. I threaten, cultist scoffs at me. I punch one more time, cultist gives information. Then I go report in to Walks, and she acts like I just committed some horrendous act. Set aside the fact that this cultist, not five minutes ago, would have been all too happy to kill us and send our souls to whatever the cult wants them for, she outright told me to get information from him and then was bothered by me punching him all of twice.

I actually do think it fits her character. At least I remember her as very non-violent.

metheglyn wrote: »

Then we go to the caves and find what we find and get swept away and we talk to Walks again, and literally the only thing we can ask is, "Why do they want Mannimarco?" Really? Really? You think we couldn't have figured that gem out on our own?

I really had to laugh in that situation (and felt a little sorry for my neighbours who probably heard it in the middle of the night).

metheglyn wrote: »

I was so irritated, but I admit then I got amused because my stupid as rocks Vestige got to ask Walks all the questions we'd been pondering here in the forum. "What state is his corpse in?" "Where'd the box come from?" and so forth. It doesn't make up for being forced into the role of dummy, but it did save me from total irritation.

That part was actually interesting and I was almost a little astonished that these questions came up. Something reasonable from our very confused Vestige for once.

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I figured you'd just love that line of dialogue. To be fair, that was optional, and I initially chose it because it started with something that didn't necessarily sound like I had no clue. "Tell me about Vanus Galerion." I thought Gabrielle might, from having known and worked with him for so long, have some interesting details.

I was just as naive

metheglyn wrote: »

But the best part of the dialogue was when I had the chance to say the communication from Vanus could be a trap, and Gabrielle told me that wasn't likely because "this isn't the first time he's allowed himself to be captured to get close to his enemies." Since his Coldharbour escapade was very much not something he willingly did, it painted this picture for me of Vanny going around getting captured on purpose, like a hobby or a fetish. Like this is just something he does because, hey, why not? (Really, how many enemies does he have?). And then I thought: A-ha, that's what he does with all his time and why he was so vague when I asked him what he'd been up to!

I gave the neutral reply, I think, but got the same answer. And I found it horribly funny. Although I assumed it's more because... well... he can't let go of Mannimarco, obviously. Still hoping to be able to talk to him and change him.

Wait - maybe that happened after their final battle that will take place at some time in the future according to lore: He didn't die and Mannimarco stole his corpse - he just played dead, so Mannimarco would kidnap him

metheglyn wrote: »

I was initially surprised to see the Aedra shrines in the chapel of the Three Queens, but if they really are into letting everyone choose who to worship, I guess it fits that they are there. I don't imagine the deities in question would be all that into it, but how often do they show up?

Maybe not the deities, but their worshippers. I can totally see Aedra worshippers being infuriated and destroying the Daedric shrines, or a Daedra cultist sneaking in at night to remove the Aedric ones.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The dialogue option in English was to punch. This part annoyed me greatly. So here we have this worm cultist who Walks-in-Ash subdued and took prisoner, and she tells us to question him because he knows her methods (or something like that). Ok, fine. I question. Cultist gives me attitude. I threaten, cultist scoffs at me. I punch one more time, cultist gives information. Then I go report in to Walks, and she acts like I just committed some horrendous act. Set aside the fact that this cultist, not five minutes ago, would have been all too happy to kill us and send our souls to whatever the cult wants them for, she outright told me to get information from him and then was bothered by me punching him all of twice.

I actually do think it fits her character. At least I remember her as very non-violent.

All right, then. I guess she can be upset with me. Or shaken by my methods.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was so irritated, but I admit then I got amused because my stupid as rocks Vestige got to ask Walks all the questions we'd been pondering here in the forum. "What state is his corpse in?" "Where'd the box come from?" and so forth. It doesn't make up for being forced into the role of dummy, but it did save me from total irritation.

That part was actually interesting and I was almost a little astonished that these questions came up. Something reasonable from our very confused Vestige for once.

Maybe the only time; I don't know, as I haven't finished the main quest.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But the best part of the dialogue was when I had the chance to say the communication from Vanus could be a trap, and Gabrielle told me that wasn't likely because "this isn't the first time he's allowed himself to be captured to get close to his enemies." Since his Coldharbour escapade was very much not something he willingly did, it painted this picture for me of Vanny going around getting captured on purpose, like a hobby or a fetish. Like this is just something he does because, hey, why not? (Really, how many enemies does he have?). And then I thought: A-ha, that's what he does with all his time and why he was so vague when I asked him what he'd been up to!

I gave the neutral reply, I think, but got the same answer. And I found it horribly funny. Although I assumed it's more because... well... he can't let go of Mannimarco, obviously. Still hoping to be able to talk to him and change him.

Wait - maybe that happened after their final battle that will take place at some time in the future according to lore: He didn't die and Mannimarco stole his corpse - he just played dead, so Mannimarco would kidnap him

Now I picture Vanny using his free time to go around to places he knows Worm Cultists might hang out, hoping to get captured, hoping it leads him to Mannimarco once again.

You know, during the prologue, I don't recall Gabrielle being so casual about Vanny's capture. Her reaction seemed to be more of an "Oh no!" variety rather than a "There goes Vanny, getting captured on purpose again."

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was initially surprised to see the Aedra shrines in the chapel of the Three Queens, but if they really are into letting everyone choose who to worship, I guess it fits that they are there. I don't imagine the deities in question would be all that into it, but how often do they show up?

Maybe not the deities, but their worshippers. I can totally see Aedra worshippers being infuriated and destroying the Daedric shrines, or a Daedra cultist sneaking in at night to remove the Aedric ones.

So you're saying the Clavicus Vile worshipper lied, and everyone in Sunport isn't easy-going about everyone else's religious habits?

I wonder how many Aedra worshippers there are (aside from the three Dibellans). The official religion of Sunport is the Three Queens, and we meet Sanguine and Vile followers in the city, but I don't recall anyone mentioning the Aedra.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Now I picture Vanny using his free time to go around to places he knows Worm Cultists might hang out, hoping to get captured, hoping it leads him to Mannimarco once again.

I find this very plausible. What other enemies would he have anyway? Rivaling book clubs? ... Why are you looking at me like this?! Yes, it's true, Great House Telvanni might sometimes translocate certain individuals. But I've never heard anyone being interested in Vanny yet (I know, I know; the truth hurts).

metheglyn wrote: »

You know, during the prologue, I don't recall Gabrielle being so casual about Vanny's capture. Her reaction seemed to be more of an "Oh no!" variety rather than a "There goes Vanny, getting captured on purpose again."

It is completely contradictive and I'm wondering why that idea came up. Because there's really nothing that would have ever hinted on this behaviour.

And while I find it truly amusing right now, just because it seems so absurd, I honestly wonder whether I'll still be able to take the situation seriously when the topic comes up again in this story. And we know it will.

metheglyn wrote: »

So you're saying the Clavicus Vile worshipper lied, and everyone in Sunport isn't easy-going about everyone else's religious habits?

I wouldn't expect one individual to know about the opinion of every inhabitant of a whole city, or even whole island, anyway.

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder how many Aedra worshippers there are (aside from the three Dibellans). The official religion of Sunport is the Three Queens, and we meet Sanguine and Vile followers in the city, but I don't recall anyone mentioning the Aedra.

There was a beggar or something like that somewhere I think, who mentions he prays at all shrines every day.

But of course that's the next aspect: If almost no one cares for the Aedra, why would they even create shrines for them? If there's not at least a significant number of believers, you might have small private shrines in homes, but not in the city's chapel.

I'd assume that the veneration of the Three Queens would be an Altmer habit, considering its origins, and most of the Argonians in the city would rather believe in their own native traditions. The most Aedra worshippers present, if any, would probably be merchants or other travellers who ended up there at some point. I'd rather think they would have their extra place of worship? At least that's what I'd take from real world history. Let's take ancient Rome, for example: There were edicts of toleration, which meaned that foreigners were allowed to build their own temples - it didn't mean mixing them.

Also, why don't the Dibella cultists just try to connect with the temple there, if they welcome all kinds of beliefs, including Aedra worship?

I honestly think the writers might have just had "tolerance" in mind - or just that the religion there has to be "different", because for some reason, everything has to be a little different on that island (and yes, of course a group of individuals that left the main population will develop its own traditions, especially when living in remote places, but that doesn't mean everything has to be super unusual all of a sudden just because of that).

Syldras

Okay. The "flirting"...

Within some dialogue an ancient Argonian game was mentioned. I have no details yet (the main reason might be that I logged off), it was just mentioned that it was "bloody" and some old cultic habit.

So that character tells me about that "bloody Argonian game", and I get only 2 dialogue options: A neutral one or a flirty one. The flirty one is:

"I could think of a few games I'd like to play with you!" *nudge nudge*

Why?!

Especially in a "We must hurry, otherwise people might die!" situation. And with no romantic context at all.

Which human being would ever come up with such a reply, in such a situation, and then get the idea to speak it out loud?

(Also: Where's the next Worm Cult nest? I want to join and remove Nirn once and for all.)

Heren

Someone aroused by blood. I prefer not to think to much about that.

But I guess it's just some cheap humor from the writters ?

Elsonso

Syldras wrote: »

And as for my find of yesterday (or when ever it was), just some kind of wall/door (or similar) that only opens when the story has progressed enough for the find to make sense, would have been enough.

Honestly? I find the "you can't use this door right now" doors to be as annoying as the poor, or lack of, dialog choices.

Syldras wrote: »

Okay. The "flirting"...

Within some dialogue an ancient Argonian game was mentioned. I have no details yet (the main reason might be that I logged off), it was just mentioned that it was "bloody" and some old cultic habit.

So that character tells me about that "bloody Argonian game", and I get only 2 dialogue options: A neutral one or a flirty one. The flirty one is:

"I could think of a few games I'd like to play with you!" *nudge nudge*

Why?!

Especially in a "We must hurry, otherwise people might die!" situation. And with no romantic context at all.

Which human being would ever come up with such a reply, in such a situation, and then get the idea to speak it out loud?

New toys. I expect them to be used everywhere until they are no longer shiny.

Do these displace the "remind my who I am and why I am here" dialog options or are they additional responses?

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Now I picture Vanny using his free time to go around to places he knows Worm Cultists might hang out, hoping to get captured, hoping it leads him to Mannimarco once again.

I find this very plausible. What other enemies would he have anyway? Rivaling book clubs? ... Why are you looking at me like this?! Yes, it's true, Great House Telvanni might sometimes translocate certain individuals. But I've never heard anyone being interested in Vanny yet (I know, I know; the truth hurts).

I also wondered how many enemies he's racked up in his time. Or maybe his definition of 'enemy' is a lot looser than ours? You know, there was that one dialogue option to call him an arrogant twit: maybe everyone who chose that is on his enemies list now.

Is there a way an individual can protect themselves from unexpected Telvanni translocation? Just a hypothetical question, of course.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You know, during the prologue, I don't recall Gabrielle being so casual about Vanny's capture. Her reaction seemed to be more of an "Oh no!" variety rather than a "There goes Vanny, getting captured on purpose again."

It is completely contradictive and I'm wondering why that idea came up. Because there's really nothing that would have ever hinted on this behaviour.

And while I find it truly amusing right now, just because it seems so absurd, I honestly wonder whether I'll still be able to take the situation seriously when the topic comes up again in this story. And we know it will.

What if it turns out it's a convenient lie that Gabrielle told herself, because otherwise she couldn't reconcile The Great Mage being so easily captured?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder how many Aedra worshippers there are (aside from the three Dibellans). The official religion of Sunport is the Three Queens, and we meet Sanguine and Vile followers in the city, but I don't recall anyone mentioning the Aedra.

There was a beggar or something like that somewhere I think, who mentions he prays at all shrines every day.

I took that as him hedging his bets. He doesn't have deep faith or belief in any of them, and he just goes to every shrine to cover all the bases. I wanted to tell him, "I don't think that'll work," but then again, I don't know how responsive the divines tend to be. Does his "all the shrines" even include the ones to the daedra?

Syldras wrote: »

But of course that's the next aspect: If almost no one cares for the Aedra, why would they even create shrines for them? If there's not at least a significant number of believers, you might have small private shrines in homes, but not in the city's chapel.

I'd assume that the veneration of the Three Queens would be an Altmer habit, considering its origins, and most of the Argonians in the city would rather believe in their own native traditions. The most Aedra worshippers present, if any, would probably be merchants or other travellers who ended up there at some point. I'd rather think they would have their extra place of worship? At least that's what I'd take from real world history. Let's take ancient Rome, for example: There were edicts of toleration, which meaned that foreigners were allowed to build their own temples - it didn't mean mixing them.

Also, why don't the Dibella cultists just try to connect with the temple there, if they welcome all kinds of beliefs, including Aedra worship?

I honestly think the writers might have just had "tolerance" in mind - or just that the religion there has to be "different", because for some reason, everything has to be a little different on that island (and yes, of course a group of individuals that left the main population will develop its own traditions, especially when living in remote places, but that doesn't mean everything has to be super unusual all of a sudden just because of that).

When I got back to town after my run-in with the Dibellans, I looked for that house of worship she mentioned and, not finding it, looked for them in the chapel, thinking maybe she meant the area around the Dibella shrine. Then I found them in that little alcove out in the city, and thought she really exaggerated their set-up.

There was no Sithis shrine or anything like that in the chapel, was there? I don't know if Sithis shrines ever can be out in the open, but there certainly didn't seem to be anything in the chapel to accommodate the native Argonians (which I didn't really think about until you brought it up).

Everything in one place could also be down to practical development reasons: less time to create one generic chapel than several very specific ones. Maybe the devotees of the Aedra set up special shrines behind all those locked doors in the city.

Syldras wrote: »

Okay. The "flirting"...

Within some dialogue an ancient Argonian game was mentioned. I have no details yet (the main reason might be that I logged off), it was just mentioned that it was "bloody" and some old cultic habit.

So that character tells me about that "bloody Argonian game", and I get only 2 dialogue options: A neutral one or a flirty one. The flirty one is:

"I could think of a few games I'd like to play with you!" *nudge nudge*

Why?!

Especially in a "We must hurry, otherwise people might die!" situation. And with no romantic context at all.

Which human being would ever come up with such a reply, in such a situation, and then get the idea to speak it out loud?

(Also: Where's the next Worm Cult nest? I want to join and remove Nirn once and for all.)

Well...I guess this is what we get when we tell ZOS we want the ability to be able to respond to npc flirting. It's like the Lady at the Sanguine Carnival playing corrupt a wish. Still waiting for the "knock it off" option....

The Worm Cult have camps all over the island--just head to one of those, do your best not to kill everyone on sight, and see if they'll have you!

Heren wrote: »

Someone aroused by blood. I prefer not to think to much about that.

But I guess it's just some cheap humor from the writters ?

Cheap/bawdy humor, or maybe a chance for people to role play their characters as truly insane or dark in some way?

Syldras

Heren wrote: »

But I guess it's just some cheap humor from the writters ?

I think exactly that's what it is. It really doesn't help when they first try to give you the feeling of danger and urgency, and then that dialogue choice pops up on your screen, together with the kitchy pink heart icon next to it. As the only other option next to a neutral "progress the story normally" reply, of all things. It feels like the writers don't take their own story seriously.

It pops up completely context-less, out of nothing, there's no reason why the player character should get any "romantic" idea (nothing has even happened at that point except for the npc just saying there was some bloody Argonian game) - makes we wonder now whether "flirty" options will show up every time new, regardly of situation, when ever someone says "bed" ("Herp derp I want to take you to bed too!"), "wine" ("I want to get drunk with you and then...") or "staff" (...). It doesn't make your character seem dark or evil either, just like an idiot with no social intelligence who laughs at every word that might be interpreted in a bawdy way, and then acts upon it, no matter the situation. And if it happens in a situation that is supposed to be dangerous, scary or mysterious, then it completely destroys the atmosphere, even if you just see that option on screen, no matter whether saying it is optional or not.

Makes me wonder, by the way, how the npc would have reacted on that flirting, whether it would have been met positively or whether we would have been told that this is not funny and not the right moment for this. But I've always played my main seriously in dialogues and choices, so I didn't want to test it with him, of course.

Elsonso wrote: »

New toys. I expect them to be used everywhere until they are no longer shiny.
Do these displace the "remind my who I am and why I am here" dialog options or are they additional responses?

They're additional. And in my opinion, they can use them, often even, I don't mind. I'd just wish they would be used in a way that exhances the player's immersion and helps with roleplay, not break immersion for the sake of some "funny" joke. It's also disappointing that there were quests where different dialogue choices would have been really interesting, but there were none, but then we get something like this instead...

More later.

Ilsabet

metheglyn wrote: »

It had very much the feeling of the post main quest dialogue you get when you have to wait for the next content drop.

That's because it literally is. That line shows up sporadically throughout the entire storyline, including the very first conversation you have with him, but it's obviously meant for the very end of the questline. Thankfully it doesn't give all that much away, but it makes no sense in most of the contexts where it appears, and at best it's useless clutter.

That was one of the many errors (including the Earth Forge mentions) that we reported on PTS that ZOS didn't bother to fix.

Syldras wrote: »

Makes me wonder, by the way, how the npc would have reacted on that flirting, whether it would have been met positively or whether we would have been told that this is not funny and not the right moment for this. But I've always played my main seriously in dialogues and choices, so I didn't want to test it with him, of course.

As I recall from people who did test it, yeah he's basically like "that could be fun but it's not really the time."

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

Okay. The "flirting"...

Within some dialogue an ancient Argonian game was mentioned. I have no details yet (the main reason might be that I logged off), it was just mentioned that it was "bloody" and some old cultic habit.

So that character tells me about that "bloody Argonian game", and I get only 2 dialogue options: A neutral one or a flirty one. The flirty one is:

"I could think of a few games I'd like to play with you!" *nudge nudge*

Why?!

Especially in a "We must hurry, otherwise people might die!" situation. And with no romantic context at all.

Which human being would ever come up with such a reply, in such a situation, and then get the idea to speak it out loud?

(Also: Where's the next Worm Cult nest? I want to join and remove Nirn once and for all.)

I forgot to mention this in my last post: you only got two dialogue options here? Because I had three. I had the neutral one, a lighter, sort of quippy one, and then the flirty one. (I also had three in that first flirty situation with this npc).

In my case, I chose the lighter one, which went something like, "Guess we'll just have to invite ourselves." (It followed off of him saying the cultists didn't invite him to play a game). I thought that fit, since my character has developed a mostly teasing relationship with this npc over the years.

So I wonder why you only had two? That seems odd to me, and I wonder if it's based on your character not being in the Aldmeri Dominion. Or if it's based on past questing with this npc somehow.

Ilsabet wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It had very much the feeling of the post main quest dialogue you get when you have to wait for the next content drop.

That's because it literally is. That line shows up sporadically throughout the entire storyline, including the very first conversation you have with him, but it's obviously meant for the very end of the questline. Thankfully it doesn't give all that much away, but it makes no sense in most of the contexts where it appears, and at best it's useless clutter.

That was one of the many errors (including the Earth Forge mentions) that we reported on PTS that ZOS didn't bother to fix.

Well that's disappointing! I see how the Earth Forge mention might have been harder to fix, being a voice line, but would it really have been that hard to remove the "What's next?" dialogue option from all but the last quest? I have no experience in programming, so I've no idea how much work such a thing would take.