Pelanora wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

There have been complaints for years that sorc builds are "pets or go home" in endgame PvE. That you can't run as a lightning wizard type of build. You have to be a summoner or you are holding back your group. So this class set look designed to make sorc DPS more viable if you are not running pets. It seems to synergize with the recent Expert Summoner passive change that gives you more max health with pets and more max magicka/stamina if not using pets.

you should not need a set to do that, the damage should be a passive if you have no pets up from the skill line to give the class a choice.

I agree. I want the option to be a summoner or a dark mage baked in. I don't want to have to wear a set for that.

How could that change be so complex it can't be made to passives or skills.

Here’s the problem, and I’ll lay it bare.

Pets require two ability slots per.

If the cost investment of a pet was not as heavy, Daedric Prey could be altered into another benefit other than damage, and all Sorcerers could add minions to their builds without completely overriding the vision that they have for their character OR because of the fact that our pets wouldn’t be overperforming, another skill could be slotted instead.

You’re stuck with the same 5 out 10 active skills on every Sorcerer DPS currently, and it feels horrible.

Savagejack wrote: »

How I read the new sorc set:
Armor of Waking Nightmare
(2 items) Adds 129 Mental Health Recovery
(3 items) Adds Maximum Sad and Mad
(4 items) Critical Resistance
(5 items) While active, your maximum milligrams of Xanax are increased in dosage. Grants Major Unsubscription

What I want it to be:

(2 items) Grants Minor Nothing which does nothing by 0%
(3 items) Grants Major Nothing which does nothing by 0%
(4 items) Adds 0 Nothing
(5 items) Adds Sorc Wins every PvP encounter

Theist_VII wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

There have been complaints for years that sorc builds are "pets or go home" in endgame PvE. That you can't run as a lightning wizard type of build. You have to be a summoner or you are holding back your group. So this class set look designed to make sorc DPS more viable if you are not running pets. It seems to synergize with the recent Expert Summoner passive change that gives you more max health with pets and more max magicka/stamina if not using pets.

you should not need a set to do that, the damage should be a passive if you have no pets up from the skill line to give the class a choice.

I agree. I want the option to be a summoner or a dark mage baked in. I don't want to have to wear a set for that.

How could that change be so complex it can't be made to passives or skills.

Here’s the problem, and I’ll lay it bare.

Pets require two ability slots per.

If the cost investment of a pet was not as heavy, Daedric Prey could be altered into another benefit other than damage, and all Sorcerers could add minions to their builds without completely overriding the vision that they have for their character OR because of the fact that our pets wouldn’t be overperforming, another skill could be slotted instead.

You’re stuck with the same 5 out 10 active skills on every Sorcerer DPS currently, and it feels horrible.

I just refuse to play it the way they want us to given how they've set up sorc, and i wear the cost to my dps, and don't try for content where someone would yell at my choices.

And thus, technically I play it my way and zos says yes, see, you can play it your way.

And the forums yell that play it your way doesn't mean 'love my rubbish build' so i don't force my build on a group.....but as for the build itself.....what's a sorc with aesthetics and a sense of dignity to do?

_ _ _

This is some classic history....pet builds were once the poor cousin. Zos must get as sick of the see saws as much as we do. Perhaps more?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/452477/pet-sorc-problems-from-a-vet-player

Pelanora wrote: »

I just refuse to play it the way they want us to given how they've set up sorc, and i wear the cost to my dps, and don't try for content where someone would yell at my choices.

And thus, technically I play it my way and zos says yes, see, you can play it your way.

And the forums yell that play it your way doesn't mean 'love my rubbish build' so i don't force my build on a group.....but as for the build itself.....what's a sorc with aesthetics and a sense of dignity to do?

_ _ _

This is some classic history....pet builds were once the poor cousin. Zos must get as sick of the see saws as much as we do. Perhaps more?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/452477/pet-sorc-problems-from-a-vet-player

Pet builds used to be the poor cousin, but then ZOS went ahead and completely see sawed sorc the other way entirely where no-pet sorc has been relegated to roleplaying and overland content (in PvE), completely killing off the "mage" theme entirely (forcing the class into being a summoner instead of a mage, once again, this is in PvE).

Theist_VII wrote: »

We’ve got a rather long history of back and forth with sledgehammer updates, now that the game is more stable, perhaps it’s time for them to dig in and start solving problems.

I really hope they do look into fixing this issue for sorcs. The thing is that the pets could have worked well as a supplementary option for the class (with the option to focus on them entirely) if ZOS had simply removed the double bar nonsense and reworked the other class abilities to have better synergy if the pets were active (not what they are currently doing, but actual synergy that doesn't take over or force certain playstyles).

Might make a thread on this later with some ideas for this I've been thinking about lately.

5% damage done and 5% healing done is weak for a Sorcerer 5pc bonus in PvP. Should be 10% each.

This is still a problem.

This set actually gives my berserker werewolf almost 1k more dps than pillar of nirn, while giving some extra defense. But I still agree, it's a bit underwhelming for a class set. It's just a fancy stat set, I like the flashy visual procs like corpseburster and pyrebrand.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

"Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

We’ve got a rather long history of back and forth with sledgehammer updates, now that the game is more stable, perhaps it’s time for them to dig in and start solving problems.

I really hope they do look into fixing this issue for sorcs. The thing is that the pets could have worked well as a supplementary option for the class (with the option to focus on them entirely) if ZOS had simply removed the double bar nonsense and reworked the other class abilities to have better synergy if the pets were active (not what they are currently doing, but actual synergy that doesn't take over or force certain playstyles).

Might make a thread on this later with some ideas for this I've been thinking about lately.

Yup, this is exactly the problem.

Beacon of Oblivion was our chance at a bandaid fix to our lack of bar space short of reworking the class, and they squandered it.

As much as I would rather all pets adjusted, I couldn’t help but feel the Daedric Summoning set would do at least something to solve our problems.

Would've been cool if the set allowed you to one-bar the pets (in addition to some other thematic bonuses)
Like, front barring the set allowed you to back bar your pet skills and keep them active when you swapped to the front bar, or vice versa.

As much as I would love this, the pets just need to be one-bar, and Daedric Prey needs a rework or reduction.

Spearblade wrote: »

I really enjoy the set personally. Most of my builds are petless, so this has been a nice set for me. It doesn't have to be better than Relequen, or Pillar of Nirn- just within view. The set isn't hyper focused on DPS like Rele/Nirn, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. I do however wish the damage/healing wasn't nerfed to 5% in PVP. I feel like it should be higher with Deadly out there. Not untouched, but I think 10% is probably fair.

However, the "with pets" bonus is an absolute turd sandwich, even for tanks... At least make it usable/decent for tanks.

I'd argue it should be 16% in pve, 8% in pvp, but I think most people are in agreement that the PVP side was dead on arrival.

For the tank side of it with pets, completely laughable. It's objectively less stat dense than basic static sets that have a 5 piece multiplier of x2.325. TLDR, take a stat from a 2-4 piece, times that by 2.325 and you should get a static sets 5 piece value. Eg. Hundings Rage, Plague Doctor, Fortified Brass, they all follow this rule, these basically serve as the minimum standard for a sets stat density when considering how a 5 piece value should function.

Thats why when you look at sets like Rallying Cry or Wretched Vitality, they are objectively, mathematically, TOO stat dense to the point where they're esentially each 2 sets in 1 for a combined total of four, 5 piece effects at the same time.

To be more specific and show my math on this..

(2 items) Adds 1487 Armor
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(5 items) Adds 1840 Health and 1980 Armor with a pet.

1840 health / 1206 health = 1.525
1980 armor / 1487 armor = 1.331

So lets say this was like Fortified Brass, giving 100% of the 5p towards armor. It would look like this:

(1.525 + 1.331) 1487 armor
= 2.856 x 1487 armor
= 4247 armor

Fortified Brass gives 3460 Armor so it's technically stronger by 787 armor right? Wrong... because the 129 weapon/spell damage line reduces the total value of the set given the fact that tanks do not require this stat in almost all scenario's. It's a dead line reducing the total stat density by -1.00 when it was only 0.531x ahead. The net total being -0.469 a set like Fortified Brass which no one uses anymore.

The no pet DPS side of the set adds additional value on the 5p to make up for the 2p and 4p to make it relatively competitive, the actual problem with no pet sorc is the the kit, not the set, the pet tank side does nothing additional to make up for the 3p in a similar way.

The only reason the static multipler not being 2.325x vs this sets 2.856x is because it requires a double slotted permanent pet, what the designers missed was the -1.00 from a wasted stat line and I'd argue another -0.5 from it being a class specific set. This is how spreadsheets work and why they're suppose to help, but you still need human intervention to make sense of it all.

What I'm concluding is, the 5p at minimum should have a multiplier between 3.856 to 4.356 to make it worth everything considered. If it was an even split at the maximum proposed multiplier, it'd look like this:

1206 x 2.178 = 2627 health
1487 x 2.178 = 3239 armor

Add in some condition like "When casting a permanent pet skill, get x for 10s" then you have basically the condition for all sets that have multipliers like this found from Rallying Cry to Wretched Vitality, which when paired with a duration, get higher value.

Is this set still boring and lacking creativity? Yes. Is it stat dense, being somewhat useful to someone in the game vs simply running a set like Plague Doctor or Fortified Brass, yes. They failed this set in more ways than I can count objectively and subjectively speaking.

madmufffin wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Spearblade wrote: »

I really enjoy the set personally. Most of my builds are petless, so this has been a nice set for me. It doesn't have to be better than Relequen, or Pillar of Nirn- just within view. The set isn't hyper focused on DPS like Rele/Nirn, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. I do however wish the damage/healing wasn't nerfed to 5% in PVP. I feel like it should be higher with Deadly out there. Not untouched, but I think 10% is probably fair.

However, the "with pets" bonus is an absolute turd sandwich, even for tanks... At least make it usable/decent for tanks.

I'd argue it should be 16% in pve, 8% in pvp, but I think most people are in agreement that the PVP side was dead on arrival.

For the tank side of it with pets, completely laughable. It's objectively less stat dense than basic static sets that have a 5 piece multiplier of x2.325. TLDR, take a stat from a 2-4 piece, times that by 2.325 and you should get a static sets 5 piece value. Eg. Hundings Rage, Plague Doctor, Fortified Brass, they all follow this rule, these basically serve as the minimum standard for a sets stat density when considering how a 5 piece value should function.

Thats why when you look at sets like Rallying Cry or Wretched Vitality, they are objectively, mathematically, TOO stat dense to the point where they're esentially each 2 sets in 1 for a combined total of four, 5 piece effects at the same time.

To be more specific and show my math on this..

(2 items) Adds 1487 Armor
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(5 items) Adds 1840 Health and 1980 Armor with a pet.

1840 health / 1206 health = 1.525
1980 armor / 1487 armor = 1.331

So lets say this was like Fortified Brass, giving 100% of the 5p towards armor. It would look like this:

(1.525 + 1.331) 1487 armor
= 2.856 x 1487 armor
= 4247 armor

Fortified Brass gives 3460 Armor so it's technically stronger by 787 armor right? Wrong... because the 129 weapon/spell damage line reduces the total value of the set given the fact that tanks do not require this stat in almost all scenario's. It's a dead line reducing the total stat density by -1.00 when it was only 0.531x ahead. The net total being -0.469 a set like Fortified Brass which no one uses anymore.

The no pet DPS side of the set adds additional value on the 5p to make up for the 2p and 4p to make it relatively competitive, the actual problem with no pet sorc is the the kit, not the set, the pet tank side does nothing additional to make up for the 3p in a similar way.

The only reason the static multipler not being 2.325x vs this sets 2.856x is because it requires a double slotted permanent pet, what the designers missed was the -1.00 from a wasted stat line and I'd argue another -0.5 from it being a class specific set. This is how spreadsheets work and why they're suppose to help, but you still need human intervention to make sense of it all.

What I'm concluding is, the 5p at minimum should have a multiplier between 3.856 to 4.356 to make it worth everything considered. If it was an even split, it'd look like this:

1206 x 2.178 = 2627 health
1487 x 2.178 = 3239 armor

Is this set still boring and lacking creativity? Yes. Is it stat dense, being somewhat useful to someone in the game vs simply running a set like Plague Doctor or Fortified Brass, yes.

The main issue is that…

…there is a line saying, “While you do not have a pet active” on the Daedric Summoning set.

There was absolutely no reason why our class set had to do with anything other than Daedric Summoning, and if they insisted, the benefits should have been reversed as explained multiple times earlier in the thread.

You don’t need armor or health with pets active.
You don’t need damage when your pets die.

Maybe they can make a Vampire class set that gives you 300 Health Recovery while afflicted, and 15% damage and healing while not a Vampire *5% with Battle Spirit.

Or better yet, a Werewolf class set that gives Major Heroism while in Werewolf form, and 15% damage and healing while in Human form. *5% with Battle Spirit.

That is what Beacon of Oblivion is to a Sorcerer using Daedric Summoning… Health Recovery on a Vampire and Heroism on a transformed Werewolf.

madmufffin wrote: »

The main issue is that it's conveyed to be a dps set based off of the non-pet 5pc bonus, but doesn't come anywhere near what you get while running pets.

This can't be fixed by a set, the problem lies within the class, a set shouldn't fix a classes dps problems which is why I've previously been against the arguement that it should be buffed to like 20-30% damage done and healing. I think that's absurd.

As @IncultaWolf put it above, for their Werewolf, this set is actually slightly better than something like Pillar. A good example of using the set in a fair testing ground where the Sorc Pet vs No Pet gap isn't a concern. While not entirely necessary, the fact that it deals similar damage to Pillar, while also improving tankiness and healing done to a substantial amount, actually warrants the use of this set in different environments, justifying why it can only be used by 1 class to begin with. This is how all class sets should behave in my opinion, slightly better than a universal set in its niche, while providing some type of auxillary benefit, incentive, and theme for the specific class its made for.

On the No Pet Sorc PVE DPS side of balancing things, I think ZOS is having a hard time balancing because they understand Sorc has been between A to S tier for most of the games life cycle when it comes to PVP. How do they improve their No Pet PVE DPS without overtuning the PVP side of things where 99% of Sorc's are already competitive without pets?

It's a retorical question because I know about 10 different ways I'd personally do it, but I imagine THAT is why this problem has been prevelant for close to 5 years now.

madmufffin wrote: »

To run this set you give up a damage dealing 5pc set and the damage from your pets. Add in the fact that the 2-4 stat lines are completely worthless to dealing damage, the set just doesn't make sense at all.

Preaching to the choir. I don't like this set, I think it's thematically boring, creatively bankrupt, and I'm not dropping pets to lose 20k DPS just for a more complicated rotation to RP the way I actually want to play, all for less than 1% more DPS than a set like Pillar. It's simply not worth it no matter how I try to mentally justify it in its current state, but that isn't to say the bonus for no pet isn't good. It is. It's just the class being behind that makes me not want to use it.. also it's boring.

madmufffin wrote: »

Most Sorc tanks don't run a pet anyways, so I just fail to see the purpose of any of the set.

Agreed, but not the point of my original comment. It was to illustrate that the set isn't just boring, it's objectively worse than basic, universal, 10 year old, no requirement, static sets like Fortified Brass and how they could fix it... that said, the entire set should be completely redesigned because as you said, it makes no sense.

I would change the 3 class sets to:

Beacon of Oblivion:

• Pet DD + Healer - The skill line is called Daedric Summoning, the part of the set that covers 2 roles of which the line is primarily based around should reward that playstyle.
• No Pet Tank - There is 12 skills, of which only 3 are useful for Tanks. It makes more sense to reward tanks not using pets, as many people mentioned, tanking without a pet is much easier because of the much required bar space.

Monolith of Storms:

• No Pet DD - It's impossible to fit all skills from this line while also using pets, so while I'm not saying it should have a pet qualifier, I'm saying it will end up working better for no pet users because they can add more Stormcalling skills. For this to work, a redesign which rewards slotting or using Storm Calling skills like many of the other class sets would make the set much more useful and thematically enjoyable vs the JANK it is now... coupled with actual improvements or redesigns to Lightning Flood, Mages Wrath, and Overload Morphs.

Untiltled Dark Magic Set:

• Utility/PVP Set - basically covers all roles instead of trying to be useful for no pet or pet DD, Healer, or Tank.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Has anyone tried this combo yet on the PTS for PVE?

• Front bar: Slivers of the Null Arca
• Back bar: Maelstrom 2H
• Body: Beacon of Oblivion
• Mythic: Harpooner's or Velothi
• Final slot: 1p Slimecraw

With the change to requiring a permanent pet, I'm interested to know how Beacon stacks up now that you can use Atronach without losing the 10% Max Resources. Probably best used for a body set, Maelstrom 2H is too good to pass up for Sorc, so trying to think of what would work best front bar for a Trial set. I'm not sure how well Null Arca stacks up compared to Relequen, or what the meta setup is even more. Maybe it's better to just front bar Beacon and body Relequen?

I despise the set design, but I still prefer no pet sorc overall. There is non competitive content like 4 man dungeons, 4 man arena's, solo arena's, Infinite Archive, and even overland, where that free bar space could be useful to provide more utility or simply save on potions that I wouldn't mind making a build for. At the very least, to do something different from the typical cookie cutter 2 pet DD setup.

You’re looking at around 115-125k DPS compared to the 150k+ on pet Sorc…

Which as mentioned earlier, would be around 1k dps compared to pillar on a parse of around 100k, and 1.25k dps difference between other sets, so hardly noticeable.

Theist_VII wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Has anyone tried this combo yet on the PTS for PVE?

• Front bar: Slivers of the Null Arca
• Back bar: Maelstrom 2H
• Body: Beacon of Oblivion
• Mythic: Harpooner's or Velothi
• Final slot: 1p Slimecraw

With the change to requiring a permanent pet, I'm interested to know how Beacon stacks up now that you can use Atronach without losing the 10% Max Resources. Probably best used for a body set, Maelstrom 2H is too good to pass up for Sorc, so trying to think of what would work best front bar for a Trial set. I'm not sure how well Null Arca stacks up compared to Relequen, or what the meta setup is even more. Maybe it's better to just front bar Beacon and body Relequen?

I despise the set design, but I still prefer no pet sorc overall. There is non competitive content like 4 man dungeons, 4 man arena's, solo arena's, Infinite Archive, and even overland, where that free bar space could be useful to provide more utility or simply save on potions that I wouldn't mind making a build for. At the very least, to do something different from the typical cookie cutter 2 pet DD setup.

You’re looking at around 115-125k DPS compared to the 150k+ on pet Sorc…

Which as mentioned earlier, would be around 1k dps compared to pillar on a parse of around 100k, and 1.25k dps difference between other sets, so hardly noticeable.

I was mostly interested in the best way to body the set so the defensive bonuses are active 100% of the time with the idea of using Null front bar. I got a chance to test Relequen body + Beacon front and Beacon body + Null front. The difference was 10% in favour of the Rele setup, but this is mostly because Null just doesn't compete with Relequen.

Out of curiosity, I did Relequen body + Pillar front bar to compare and I got the expected results you mentioned of about 1% in favour of Beacon.

It's dissapointing and I still don't like the set, but there are silver linings for Beacon vs Pillar.

Beacon buffs all damage, so it's better for aoe, it's also not reliant on a proc so you don't have to worry about wasting it on a random target, invulnerability phase, moving bosses, or multiple ads spread apart.

Secondly, it provides 1.5k armor, 1.2k health, and 15% healing done making it a decent 2 for 1 set if you consider the defensive bonuses as actually useful for the content you're in.

Anyway, I don't like front barring Rele, and Null is kinda weak on front in comparison, so I guess I'll stick with Rele body + Beacon front. Null was alright, it may have done 10% less dps, but it didn't require any build up or perfect weaving so it should be decent for the use case I was intending Beacon for (Solo/4m Arena/Dungeons).

Beacon would be fine at 16% in pve, 8% in pvp, with a buff to the pet side of it. It would still be boring, but the fact that it's competitive with pillar while offering free defense and no proc justifies its existance. The true problem is no pet sorc's dps in pve sucks, they could solve so much by just adding 10% damage done to monsters on Haunting Curse like they just added to Shadowy Disguise (although I suggested they add that to Mark Target). Theres a bilion different ideas that wouldn't effect pvp where Sorc is fine.

I don't even know what to say about Monolith anymore, nothing about it justifies its existance. It's not good defensively, offensively, no pet sorc, or pet sorc. It's thematically ugly. It's a dps set that buffs nothing in the line where only 3 dps skills exist, Streak and Overload don't count. It does nothing with 1 monolith, only 1 person can use it in pve, and it causes an obtuse skill layout by forcing front barring historically backbarred abilities, some of which haven't been useful for pve dps in 5 years.