“Beacon of Oblivion” lacks identity.

Aces-High-82

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Lol they actually nerfed this set for certain builds, I was maybe looking at it for a non pet pvp healer but 5% healing is a joke. Sorcerer can't get one decent class set? At least you have overpowered hardened ward I guess.

Tell me whats overpowered about hardened ward?
You have to invest at least 45k max mag to get a decent value out of it.

Theist_VII

@ZOS_Kevin, just wanted to say thanks to your team for taking a look at “Beacon of Oblivion” this week.

While I appreciate that this set is no longer exclusively for PvE, it’s not quite where it needs to be either.

This set needs to compete with sets like Rallying Cry and Essence Thief, and right now it doesn’t even compete with an archaic set like Ancient Dragonguard that people don’t use anymore, which gives you damage and resistance when you need them.

Beacon of Oblivion should be inverted, the damage should be either 10% with additional benefits or higher than 10% and only active with a pet, this is the Daedric Summoning set and as such should encourage the use of pets to further your damage when they are active, and to give you the armor and health when they are dead.

It doesn’t make much sense to add protection to your character when you’re already protected by your pets. The Familiar and Twilight body block and heal you, why would you need armor and health while they are still alive?

IncultaWolf

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Lol they actually nerfed this set for certain builds, I was maybe looking at it for a non pet pvp healer but 5% healing is a joke. Sorcerer can't get one decent class set? At least you have overpowered hardened ward I guess.

Tell me whats overpowered about hardened ward?
You have to invest at least 45k max mag to get a decent value out of it.

There are multiple threads about how it's overperforming and the general player base who actually pvp will agree with this statement. Just go ask any pvp streamer if they think ward is balanced and they will say no.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/654204/hardened-ward-heal-making-it-to-live-is-a-mistake-and-needs-to-be-changed

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/660106/hardened-ward-where-player-based-skill-can-go-from-c-tier-to-s-tier

Not going to debate anything in this thread though, go check it out and comment there if you want

Theist_VII

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Lol they actually nerfed this set for certain builds, I was maybe looking at it for a non pet pvp healer but 5% healing is a joke. Sorcerer can't get one decent class set? At least you have overpowered hardened ward I guess.

Tell me whats overpowered about hardened ward?
You have to invest at least 45k max mag to get a decent value out of it.

There are multiple threads about how it's overperforming and the general player base who actually pvp will agree with this statement. Just go ask any pvp streamer if they think ward is balanced and they will say no.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/654204/hardened-ward-heal-making-it-to-live-is-a-mistake-and-needs-to-be-changed

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/660106/hardened-ward-where-player-based-skill-can-go-from-c-tier-to-s-tier

Not going to debate anything in this thread though, go check it out and comment there if you want

Thanks for not hijacking the topic, especially considering that the ability morph you’re referencing isn’t even usable on a pet build.

We have to use the other morph of Hardened, being Regenerative Ward, as it’s the only way to get any form of heal with pets active.

While the skill is helpful, it’s nowhere near as strong as Hardened Ward, and feels pretty balanced.

I was just really looking forward to our class set and it’s backwards.

Theist_VII

To put how bad Beacon of Oblivion is performing within its new iteration, into perspective, let’s compare it to Ancient Dragonguard, a set that people haven’t ran in years.




Notice how they are standardized about the same, except it’s just inverted? If people are not using Dragonguard in 2024, why would anyone use the new Beacon of Oblivion?

Then let’s compare it to a set that you can run on your backbar…


Why on earth would we ever choose to run a set like Beacon of Oblivion in PvP when you can have all the tankiness and damage of both proc conditions from it by using a set like Essence Thief and you don’t need to double bar it.

But wait… wouldn’t you use a set like Hunt Leader instead?


It’s a set that revolves around pets, right? Yet the conditions are much more severe than simply walking over a green rune on the ground, you need to somehow manage to align the stars in open world PvP, managing to attack the same target as your stunnable pet, and regularly in the chaos of Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and Battlegrounds… and all for 10% less damage.

Now I’m not asking for the world, but a little respect for players that want to actually play a Summoner instead of just being expected to hold down heavy attacks with a lightning staff, would be appreciated.

Ezhh

While it's nice that they tried to do something with the set after all the negative feedback, this does nothing to change that this is overall a pretty bad set. There is still no obvious use case for it. Outside of very casual play where people don't mind about results, it's not suitable for any of the typical PvE roles and is now merely heavily penalised by battle spirit instead of being 100% unusable for PvP.

If it's penalised in PvP then PvP is clearly not its intended use - so once again I'm asking what is this set meant to be used for?

Monolith is already worthless. Please don't leave our second set the same way.

Zyaneth_Bal

MashmalloMan wrote: »

They removed the "monster" requirement and nerfed it down to 5% damage/healing when in pvp.

Still a boring set to me. 5% damage/healing in pvp is pretty mid too, would have been fair at around 6-8% imo.

The tank part of the set is the same, not even better than something like Fortified Brass when you add up the stat density since 129 damage for a tank is useless.

Idk, I guess I wanted a bit more flash and style.

Even if it was 6-8% it would still be very mid and not worth using and 5% is straight up bad. Maybe if it was 8%+ I’d consider it. And I’d rather it buffed damage only but by a greater number. For healers sets that only provide healing are redundant in both in pve and especially pvp. And sorcerer doesn’t benefit much from buffs to healing because it’s healing is very limited, it’s just not a factor.

Other stat lines aren’t good either especially health, only aggravated by the fact that it’s a 4th line on a potential front bar set.

Already made posts on other aspects of the set.

Zyaneth_Bal

Yudo wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Lol they actually nerfed this set for certain builds, I was maybe looking at it for a non pet pvp healer but 5% healing is a joke. Sorcerer can't get one decent class set? At least you have overpowered hardened ward I guess.

5%/15% would have been my dream set actually. Was also planning to use for pvp heal and try on some dd builds.

Well, healing is so overtuned right now in pvp that healing sets are a waste of slots anyway.

Theist_VII

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Lol they actually nerfed this set for certain builds, I was maybe looking at it for a non pet pvp healer but 5% healing is a joke. Sorcerer can't get one decent class set? At least you have overpowered hardened ward I guess.

5%/15% would have been my dream set actually. Was also planning to use for pvp heal and try on some dd builds.

Well, healing is so overtuned right now in pvp that healing sets are a waste of slots anyway.

Agreed, but still unfortunate.

One day healing will be reigned in, and sets like Beacon would have been great in Cyrodiil.

But once again we’re back to the same issue… we are being paid for having nothing to do with Daedric Summoning by the Daedric Summoning class set.

ZhuJiuyin

In comparison, DK has gained a super powerful calss set. Pyrebrand causes even more damage than Relequen.
The changes of Beacon of Oblivion in v10.1.2 show that ZOS does not understand sorc players at all, or deliberately ignores sorc players' requests.
And ironically, Daedric Summoning must "not use pets" to get the damage buff, while using pets will only get very mediocre armor and maximum health.
If ZOS really hopes to solve the problem of sorc without pets through Beacon of Oblivion, the 2-4 bonuses must be changed to Critical, W/S, and Critical, and the 5 bonuses must allow sorcs without pets to deal an additional 25% damage to monsters. Otherwise, it is completely impossible to make up for the dps lost by not using pets.

Of course, a better scenario would be for Beacon of Oblivion to be completely reworked.
For example: When the player uses a pet, Beacon of Oblivion will summon another pet and provide area damage. When the player is not using pets, Beacon of Oblivion provides damage done to monsters by 25%.

This will satisfy both pet-loving and pet-disliking players, and make the meaning of Beacon of Oblivion more consistent with Daedric Summoning. (Sorc can either spread his power to control Daedric, or he can use all his power to fight against his target.)

katorga

I'm pleased with change because of the basic unfairness of Sorc getting a class set unusable in PVP, unlike the other classes. Regardless of if the set is good enough to even use, it was the only set that was explicitly pve-only. So that is good.

YandereGirlfriend

Honestly, I am willing to concede the point that the Summoning line should be about pets and to simply have this set buff actual pet use - with nothing for non-pet users (like myself when I play Sorc). But make it at least something unique that leans into the actual use of pets, not a random and inconsequential stat-stick bump.

Of course, part of this deal also means that we need justice for the Storm Calling line and the ability to actually live the Shock Mage power fantasy, something that we currently do NOT have the ability to do.

Varana

And from a PvE perspective, the usefulness that this set could theoretically have, is totally destroyed by the fact that the Atronach counts as a pet, removing the damage bonus while it's active.
Which means that you get penalised for using your ultimate ability. The set gets more useless the better organised your group is, and if you're managing your ulti regeneration well, you can lose the set's damage bonus (the only useful thing about it) for a substantial amount of time.
Both sorcerer sets are bad to an astonishing degree.

Yudo

Theist_VII wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Lol they actually nerfed this set for certain builds, I was maybe looking at it for a non pet pvp healer but 5% healing is a joke. Sorcerer can't get one decent class set? At least you have overpowered hardened ward I guess.

5%/15% would have been my dream set actually. Was also planning to use for pvp heal and try on some dd builds.

Well, healing is so overtuned right now in pvp that healing sets are a waste of slots anyway.

Agreed, but still unfortunate.

One day healing will be reigned in, and sets like Beacon would have been great in Cyrodiil.

But once again we’re back to the same issue… we are being paid for having nothing to do with Daedric Summoning by the Daedric Summoning class set.

It is true that people are only interested in the no-pet bonus. As such, not much Deadric Summoning going on with the Deadric Summoning set unfortunately. There is no way to alternate bonuses in a practical way with this design.

StShoot

Yudo wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Lol they actually nerfed this set for certain builds, I was maybe looking at it for a non pet pvp healer but 5% healing is a joke. Sorcerer can't get one decent class set? At least you have overpowered hardened ward I guess.

5%/15% would have been my dream set actually. Was also planning to use for pvp heal and try on some dd builds.

than again pvp sorcs dont need more healing or damage at the moment.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

If ZOS really hopes to solve the problem of sorc without pets through Beacon of Oblivion, the 2-4 bonuses must be changed to Critical, W/S, and Critical, and the 5 bonuses must allow sorcs without pets to deal an additional 25% damage to monsters. Otherwise, it is completely impossible to make up for the dps lost by not using pets.

Of course, a better scenario would be for Beacon of Oblivion to be completely reworked.
For example: When the player uses a pet, Beacon of Oblivion will summon another pet and provide area damage. When the player is not using pets, Beacon of Oblivion provides damage done to monsters by 25%.

Do you even understand how ridiculous a 25% damage bonus to all would be in pve ? Deadly (15% to dots) Bahseis (15% depending on your current magica) and ansuul (7% to all+7% to enemys that you bashed) are allready considered to be some of the strongest damge sets in the game and all those sets come with a drawback, if you could get an 100% uptime on ansuul it would probably outshine riptide. And you want to pair it with another 2 lines of crit chance and 1 of spelldamage ?
This set should be fine if you just replace the max health with stamina+magica (or maybe pen if they want to throw in something for pvp) and the 2piece bonus with crit.

ZhuJiuyin

StShoot wrote: »

Do you even understand how ridiculous a 25% damage bonus to all would be in pve ? Deadly (15% to dots) Bahseis (15% depending on your current magica) and ansuul (7% to all+7% to enemys that you bashed) are allready considered to be some of the strongest damge sets in the game and all those sets come with a drawback, if you could get an 100% uptime on ansuul it would probably outshine riptide. And you want to pair it with another 2 lines of crit chance and 1 of spelldamage ?
This set should be fine if you just replace the max health with stamina+magica (or maybe pen if they want to throw in something for pvp) and the 2piece bonus with crit.

Don't get the premise wrong, the 25% damage bonus is based on sorc not using pets. The dps loss of a sorc without pets is almost 20~25%. With a pet wizard, the dps is about 145K, and without a pet wizard, it is about 110K. This is almost a 25% gap(145*0.75=108.75), and this is based on the fact that the bonuses of the rest of the sets are correct. (crit chance and spelldamage) conditions.
So if ZOS really doesn't plan to modify Beacon of Oblivion's 5 set bonus, then giving 25% monster damage with the correct 2-4 bonus (crit chance and spelldamage) is reasonable.

MashmalloMan

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

Do you even understand how ridiculous a 25% damage bonus to all would be in pve ? Deadly (15% to dots) Bahseis (15% depending on your current magica) and ansuul (7% to all+7% to enemys that you bashed) are allready considered to be some of the strongest damge sets in the game and all those sets come with a drawback, if you could get an 100% uptime on ansuul it would probably outshine riptide. And you want to pair it with another 2 lines of crit chance and 1 of spelldamage ?
This set should be fine if you just replace the max health with stamina+magica (or maybe pen if they want to throw in something for pvp) and the 2piece bonus with crit.

Don't get the premise wrong, the 25% damage bonus is based on sorc not using pets. The dps loss of a sorc without pets is almost 20~25%. With a pet wizard, the dps is about 145K, and without a pet wizard, it is about 110K. This is almost a 25% gap(145*0.75=108.75), and this is based on the fact that the bonuses of the rest of the sets are correct. (crit chance and spelldamage) conditions.
So if ZOS really doesn't plan to modify Beacon of Oblivion's 5 set bonus, then giving 25% monster damage with the correct 2-4 bonus (crit chance and spelldamage) is reasonable.

Your justification may be correct, but it's flawed. Non pet PvE dps sorc skills need to be more competitive first, like Mages Wrath, Overload, Haunting Curse, Bound Armaments, and Lightning Flood. 1 set out of 500 should not be the answer to class balance.

The set needs to be reasonable with its budget. I think in general class sets should be better than universal sets by at least 10%-20% for the given roles they're trying to fulfill, while also requiring the user to focus on the skill line they're centered on. Depending on how much sacrifice in using that line and set is required for the task it's trying to do should give a stronger gap vs universal sets.

Above all else, it should be thematic and fun to use.

Honestly their first mistake is making the Daedric Summoning set be best used without pets. It makes no sense. This set should be for pet based healer, tank, and dps depending on different criteria so it doesn't triple dip.

Monolith of Storms should be the non pet dps set. Period.

The issue remains, both these sets suck.

Theist_VII

I really hope that the reason this set wasn’t mentioned today in the patch notes is that they are considering a complete rehaul of the set.

Beacon of Oblivion has to be one of the most insulting sets I’ve seen, and shows a real disconnect between the vision of the developers and the experience of players using pet builds.

Lalothen

Theist_VII wrote: »

I really hope that the reason this set wasn’t mentioned today in the patch notes is that they are considering a complete rehaul of the set.

Beacon of Oblivion has to be one of the most insulting sets I’ve seen, and shows a real disconnect between the vision of the developers and the experience of players using pet builds.

Monolith of Storms went live as a crap 5-piece that I haven't seen a single Sorc use on Live, so I wouldn't hold your breath hoping Beacon of Oblivion's debut will be any different.

Sorc set #2, and STILL no reason to do IA on a Sorc... baffling doesn't even begin to describe the "design choices" (I use that term incredibly loosely) with the Sorc class sets. Why even go to the trouble of creating them at all when all the feedback given is "these sets are crap and nobody's going to use them"? It's like they're trolling Sorc players at this point.

Theist_VII

Lalothen wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

I really hope that the reason this set wasn’t mentioned today in the patch notes is that they are considering a complete rehaul of the set.

Beacon of Oblivion has to be one of the most insulting sets I’ve seen, and shows a real disconnect between the vision of the developers and the experience of players using pet builds.

Monolith of Storms went live as a crap 5-piece that I haven't seen a single Sorc use on Live, so I wouldn't hold your breath hoping Beacon of Oblivion's debut will be any different.

Sorc set #2, and STILL no reason to do IA on a Sorc... baffling doesn't even begin to describe the "design choices" (I use that term incredibly loosely) with the Sorc class sets. Why even go to the trouble of creating them at all when all the feedback given is "these sets are crap and nobody's going to use them"? It's like they're trolling Sorc players at this point.

Well, hopefully all of this well-deserved criticism is enough to motivate ZOS to either rework the class set structure away from 5-piece sets or to revisit and fix Beacon and Monolith into sets that are actually useful or fun.

ZhuJiuyin

MashmalloMan wrote: »

]
Your justification may be correct, but it's flawed. Non pet PvE dps sorc skills need to be more competitive first, like Mages Wrath, Overload, Haunting Curse, Bound Armaments, and Lightning Flood. 1 set out of 500 should not be the answer to class balance.

The set needs to be reasonable with its budget. I think in general class sets should be better than universal sets by at least 10%-20% for the given roles they're trying to fulfill, while also requiring the user to focus on the skill line they're centered on. Depending on how much sacrifice in using that line and set is required for the task it's trying to do should give a stronger gap vs universal sets.

Above all else, it should be thematic and fun to use.

Honestly their first mistake is making the Daedric Summoning set be best used without pets. It makes no sense. This set should be for pet based healer, tank, and dps depending on different criteria so it doesn't triple dip.

Monolith of Storms should be the non pet dps set. Period.

The issue remains, both these sets suck.

What you are talking about is undoubtedly the good vision of most sorc. But based on experience with every patch since U35, ZOS doesn't really know what sorc needs, or they don't want to give sorc the improvements it really needs, but rather randomly fix sorc based on their (without any reasonable logic) preferences. For example, it does not provide sorc Major Prophecy/Savagery, but adds Minor Force buff to Dark Deal, refuses to make Mages' Fury a spam or improves execution conditions, and refuses to adjust Lightning Splash's poor delayed action and low damage. Not to mention the universally acknowledged failure of Monolith of Storms. (Honestly, I think if you just look at Monolith of Storms, the design concept and damage would not be called bad. The statistics are slightly higher than the damage of Pillar of Nirn. But what is bad is that the Monolith of Storms and Storm Calling skill lines are combined. Together they are a disaster, neither of them work effectively, and the lightning rod's artistic effects have nothing to do with the Monolith name.)

Asdara

The sad thing is that it's going to be another useless set doomed to never being used, just like monolith of storms...
Why bother to do "class sets" if you don't make them appealing to play?

ZhuJiuyin

Asdara wrote: »

The sad thing is that it's going to be another useless set doomed to never being used, just like monolith of storms...
Why bother to do "class sets" if you don't make them appealing to play?

Maybe, just maybe, Beacon of Oblivion was introduced to give all sorcs a clear beacon: buy Arcanist and play it, or you will be punished to Infinite.

To be honest, considering that Infinite Archive is slightly more difficult than regular Group Dungeons, and harder to farm , and that class sets have more narrow usage conditions, All claee sets should be equally or better than Group Dungeons in strength. Tank sets should be at least better than Crimson Oaths, healing sets should be equal to Spell Power Cure, and dps sets should be better than Pillar of Nirn. rather than upside down.

Spearblade

Does anybody actually know how this set performs? Like...hard data?

Theist_VII

Spearblade wrote: »

Does anybody actually know how this set performs? Like...hard data?

While no pets are active the set will perform great on paper, but you’re not even close to comparable damage without pets than with them in PvE, meaning that 15% would need to be closer to 25-30% for non-pet Sorc to have competitive damage.

No “hard data” needed, just ask yourself, would 15% make a non-pet Sorc parse anywhere near to this one…

https://youtu.be/rVqrLM0ZTIU?si=mHyIpY4QMpAMjtGK
That being said, the set is mid at best for no-pet Sorc, and absolutely useless for Daedric Summoners.

Honestly this is the most insulting set that I’ve seen come from our developers. It’s repulsive.

Turtle_Bot

Theist_VII wrote: »

Honestly this is the most insulting set that I’ve seen come from our developers. It’s repulsive.

I would agree with this statement, but then I remember that Monolith of storms exists (and has still not been properly fixed).

At this point, it seems as though ZOS just doesn't want sorc to play infinite archive, there's really no incentive to do that content at all on sorcerer given just how horrendously, obnoxiously bad both of the sorcerer class sets are.

ZhuJiuyin

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I would agree with this statement, but then I remember that Monolith of storms exists (and has still not been properly fixed).

At this point, it seems as though ZOS just doesn't want sorc to play infinite archive, there's really no incentive to do that content at all on sorcerer given just how horrendously, obnoxiously bad both of the sorcerer class sets are.

What's even more ironic is that ZOS published an article titled "ESO Developer Deep Dive—Item Sets, Part 1" on 08/16.
My interpretation of this is that ZOS wants to show players that they are very serious and hard working on Item Sets, and players should not criticize them.
But seriously, crap like Beacon of Oblivion doesn't show any creativity at all, it's just a simple addition of some kind of statistics. If there was any effort at all on Beacon of Oblivion, I just see some kind of bad joke. Seriously, normal people wouldn't create sets in a skill line called "Daedric Summoning" that require not using pets in order to get the damage bonus.

Lalothen

Spearblade wrote: »

Does anybody actually know how this set performs? Like...hard data?

I wore it in numerous tests both with and without pets (substituting pets for other skills), and the DPS was similar - as in you'd be better off just using pets with the set and being a little bit tankier whilst still having similar DPS output. The set is completely DOA, just like Monolith was.

Pelanora

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I would agree with this statement, but then I remember that Monolith of storms exists (and has still not been properly fixed).

At this point, it seems as though ZOS just doesn't want sorc to play infinite archive, there's really no incentive to do that content at all on sorcerer given just how horrendously, obnoxiously bad both of the sorcerer class sets are.

What's even more ironic is that ZOS published an article titled "ESO Developer Deep Dive—Item Sets, Part 1" on 08/16.
My interpretation of this is that ZOS wants to show players that they are very serious and hard working on Item Sets, and players should not criticize them.
But seriously, crap like Beacon of Oblivion doesn't show any creativity at all, it's just a simple addition of some kind of statistics. If there was any effort at all on Beacon of Oblivion, I just see some kind of bad joke. Seriously, normal people wouldn't create sets in a skill line called "Daedric Summoning" that require not using pets in order to get the damage bonus.

That article told me zos hasn't done any research on user centered design and the huge change to the ict industry from the waterfall design approach they outlined in that article, to a user centred/focused approach. Their whole design process is locked away with 'experts ' then dropped on users in the pts WAY WAY too late. That's not user centered.

That's fine maybe for writing stories or designing zones, or furnishings, fine where it is the artists vision, and we are buying that vision, and we want to see what the artists will make, but no good NO GOOD for something so heavily co- created with users as combat.

So that article laid out paragraph by paragraph exactly how they'd ended up with such bad sets. I wasn't surprised when I read that.

You know, ibm have a free design course online. It's really good. Zos staff should do it.

Quethrosar

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

There have been complaints for years that sorc builds are "pets or go home" in endgame PvE. That you can't run as a lightning wizard type of build. You have to be a summoner or you are holding back your group. So this class set look designed to make sorc DPS more viable if you are not running pets. It seems to synergize with the recent Expert Summoner passive change that gives you more max health with pets and more max magicka/stamina if not using pets.

you should not need a set to do that, the damage should be a passive if you have no pets up from the skill line to give the class a choice.