Suggestion to a small change for Ring of Pale Order Mythic

Soarora · September 15

I'm not sure if this was mentioned but I want to mention it in case it wasn't: RoPo is bad for group PvE for a couple reasons but one reason is SPC WILL NOT PROC ON YOU. You will not get major courage from your healer, nor will you get any other effect that procs on overheals. RoPo used to not have the scaling debuff based on amount of group members. It was added later for a reason.

Nharimlur_Finor · September 15

TaSheen wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

If they removed the diminishing effect from number of group members then they'd need to re-add the cap to the healing per instance to avoid the ring being op, if I recall correctly it was capped at 4.2k healing

LaintalAy wrote: »

Why can't it just drop from Dragonthorn plants? At the same rate as Aetherial dust.

What?

Suggestion to a small change for Ring of Pale Order Mythic

is the topic.

Why can't it just drop from Dragonthorn plants?

Is the change that I'd like to see instead.

I'm right, so there's no need to waste any time pondering it.

Ummmm.... ooookay.... No one here is talking about where it drops (or should drop) from....

That's right, I'm no-one. Pretty sure that I brought it up.
"Is the change that I'd like to see instead." Did you miss that bit?

I don't want to go through the hassle of the antiquities system to get it.

TheRoamingSpirit · September 15

AlterBlika wrote: »

In PVE it's just wrong. It only works if you go pugging as a fake tank and you can solo all dungeons in the game (on vet with hm), yeah, in this case you can say you don't depend on healers and dds, in pugs only. Otherwise it never works. For achievements and trials you'd better get a well coordinated team where dds only do damage and don't trade their damage for something healers would provide. If you do some dd mechanic then maybe you can have a little defense, but that's it. If tank is dead and boss is coming after you, you time dodges against every attack while someone else is ressing the tank, the best you can do actually.

Soloing is actually pretty helpful, you learn how to make your own builds and how to actually play the game (not just stand behind bosses and do rotation). It'd do you good in the endgame. Some players don't know how to dodge and still go in vet trials.

I'm not sure I understand the first paragraph...Sorry, I don't know what your getting at.

I can solo some base game dungeons. DLC dungeons no due to some boss mechanics requiring another player to bash or such. Though from what I can tell from what you said is that soloing is good and I don't have to run trials? Please let me know if I'm missing the point.

TheRoamingSpirit · September 15

sarahthes wrote: »

OP, I know your original question has generally been answered, but I did want to say - if you like playing on your dk dragonknight, you should look into the armory system (which was mentioned a few times). You get two free 'build' slots plus can buy more (but don't need to if you don't want to).

I play my dragonknight in all kinds of content, and sometimes he's a vampire with a pretty high amount of health (tank), sometimes not a vampire with all points into mag (dps), sometimes something in between but still a vampire (archive/pvp). Exploring what you can do with the armory could let you experience all kinds of content on your primary character.

I have the armory system, I just don't really understand how to use it due to my autism. There isn't a tutorial for it.

darvaria · September 15

No.

TheRoamingSpirit · September 15

I'm sorry if this post upset anyone, I just thought it was a simple thing to suggest but everyone is making a big deal over it and I'm not sure I understand why. But judging by the replies here, I can highly guarantee that ZOS isn't going to change Ring of Pale Order at all. So most of you can be happy about it. Thanks for those who where understanding what me and my twin had to say, I'm probably just sticking to solo play with my twin since not all my characters benefit from all features in the game.

AnduinTryggva · September 15

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

I love the idea of Ring of the Pale Order but unlike the other mythics, this one has 2 drawbacks instead of 1. My suggestion is to remove one of the drawbacks, in specific the one that lowers the effectiveness of the perk per member you are grouped with. Grouping with 5 or more people makes this mythic useless for gameplay. Me and my twin have character builds that are built around the ring of pale order but we'd like to do more content with these characters like trials and even the new 8v8 battlegrounds that are coming with update 44. The other drawback is you can't be healed by anyone but yourself which is perfectly fine to stay as that is part of what makes it a strong and useful mythic.

I'm sorry if this is alot to ask but I feel it may allow more freedom for builds if gear can be used in any content without nerving your character build.

Others can discuss here about their thoughts of my suggestion and I can explain more if needed. Please no negative criticism though, I love ESO I have been a member on ESO since Morrowind's release.

If anyone wants tips on how to make a build using Ring of the Pale Order feel free to ask me.

I understand your point.

But POR has been specifically designed for solo play and solo content like Vateshran Hollows and Malstrom Arena where there is zero crossheal.

I think if you remove the drawback as you suggested it will be widely used in trials and other content as the survivability increases noticeably without much impact on your dps and we will see trial runs with 2 tanks and 10 dps.

This is not what POR was intented for and so I guess the devs won't change it. And I have to say I am with them on that.

And running the Archive with it will not be so damaging as the debuff will be small.

Ishtarknows · September 15

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Also I don't see how Pale Order would render healers ineffective if Pale order is only self-healing not group healing so healers would still be useful in trials.

One of the sets healers use in trials has to heal you to give you the buff, some class buffs won't transfer to you unless you get a heal. Trials are group content and therefore require a less selfish build than you'd use for solo play. Take off the ring in a trial

TybaltKaine · September 15

Leaving the restriction is fine. Aside from being mostly used for solo play, the ring was also primarily designed with Vampires in mind, as a way to offset the loss of health recovery and the increased cost of non-vampire healing abilities.

To remove the restriction would instead allow it to be abused by ball groups and trial groups once again, which would disrupt the balance that most trial content is designed for (2 tanks, 2 healers, 8 DPS) and make said ball groups even more overpowered by allowing them greater damage output through skills, sets and group composition, creating an uneven battlefield and reinforcing an already toxic tank meta in PVP.

It's never fun to be told that one's chosen play style doesn't align with the content they want to do, but if one also wants to be so bullish as to not allow healers and support to support them, group play probably isn't a good fit.

mdjessup4906 · September 15

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

I'm sorry if this post upset anyone, I just thought it was a simple thing to suggest but everyone is making a big deal over it and I'm not sure I understand why. But judging by the replies here, I can highly guarantee that ZOS isn't going to change Ring of Pale Order at all. So most of you can be happy about it. Thanks for those who where understanding what me and my twin had to say, I'm probably just sticking to solo play with my twin since not all my characters benefit from all features in the game.

You don't have to be sorry. This topic has generated lots of discussion. That's a good thing.

I_killed_Vivec · September 15

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

I'm sorry if this post upset anyone, I just thought it was a simple thing to suggest but everyone is making a big deal over it and I'm not sure I understand why. But judging by the replies here, I can highly guarantee that ZOS isn't going to change Ring of Pale Order at all. So most of you can be happy about it. Thanks for those who where understanding what me and my twin had to say, I'm probably just sticking to solo play with my twin since not all my characters benefit from all features in the game.

I don't believe that ZoS will change Pale Order, so I'd recommend that you and your twin investigate other options - mythics and gear included. "Play the game the way you want to" just isn't true, and maybe for the sake of balance that has to be the case. Part of the game (loved buy many, hated by many) is adapting to the way the game is built (which is always changing...).

But this post really did upset me! I never realized before that you can be healed by a companion! That's just wrong. Solo isn't solo if you have a companion with you.

thorwyn · September 15

Just slot a self heal.
No need to mess up the group meta.

Varana · September 15

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I think the twins have some thoughtful concerns and don't mean to discount them.

As a player who runs Oakensoul on every character, that is also a mythic that is not appropriate for trials. All those buffs the ring gives you are redundant in trials, but the one bar restriction remains. So I'd argue there is a hidden second drawback to Oakensoul when it comes to large groups. Just a thought.

As a healer, I used to hate Pale Order, having routinely spent lots of magic before realizing my target was wearing Pale Order. Thankfully, the new UI health bar feature let's me see right away if my heals will be wasted.

Oh, That is interesting. I didn't know Oakensoul didn't work in trials either. I appreciate your reply and honesty.

Oakensoul does work in trials. I've used it for a while, and I run with people who do.

But there are two main drawbacks:

- While the buff list sounds impressive, many of these buffs are provided in an organised group by supports (tanks, healers, support DDs) or an effect of skills or potions. Oakensoul still has advantages, like a guaranteed 100% uptime, but it's not as if you'd be missing all the buffs if you didn't use it.
- It has a kind of a soft cap on the damage you can do. At higher levels, the inability to bar swap becomes more of a drawback, meaning you can slot fewer buff or DoT skills. The damage cap of an Oakensoul build is usually lower than that of a classic two-bar build, but it's somewhat easier to reach.
- (There is one fight in one trial, namely Relequen in Cloudrest, where you need to barswap. But that is way too specific to count as a drawback for the ring in general.)

With the right build, you can get really good results with Oakensoul, even in an organised trial - there's a reason why players coined the term "Oakensorc", for instance. It's less useful than it sounds but still a good mythic to use, esp. for the permanent Empower (which is hard to get otherwise but requires you to use heavy attacks to profit).

If you have a good Oakensoul character that you're comfortable with, don't hesitate to use it in trials. With the limited bar space, dropping self-heals for damage skills becomes even more useful, but the mythic itself is fine. And at the level you're likely at, like normal trials or even base-game vet trials, no one should be batting an eye at players using it well.

AnduinTryggva · September 15

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

OP, I know your original question has generally been answered, but I did want to say - if you like playing on your dk dragonknight, you should look into the armory system (which was mentioned a few times). You get two free 'build' slots plus can buy more (but don't need to if you don't want to).

I play my dragonknight in all kinds of content, and sometimes he's a vampire with a pretty high amount of health (tank), sometimes not a vampire with all points into mag (dps), sometimes something in between but still a vampire (archive/pvp). Exploring what you can do with the armory could let you experience all kinds of content on your primary character.

I have the armory system, I just don't really understand how to use it due to my autism. There isn't a tutorial for it.

You need to have a home that you own.

In general you will get a room in the inn of the capital in all major zones for free. There you can place the armory table (I think you can find it in your collection.) Press U and and click on the house symbol on the interface that opens up. There you have all homes listed that you own. Click on one where you would like to place the armory in and then on the bottom of the interface there is a button that allows to travel to the house. Click on it and you get teleported to that house (select inside if asked). Whe inside the home press F5 again that opens the interface that allows you placing furniture into that home. Now press R to open a new interface that allows you to browse through all furniture and placeable items that you have. The interface will show on the left a category list. The arsenal table should be inside "service" or similar and there under "crafting station" or so. When the arsenal table pops up on the right window of the interface click on it and then place it anywhere by pressing first E than moving it where you want it. A trick here is to make sure that it is well placed on the surface. To this end press T so the table will stick to the floor. Make sure that the table is outlined with green color before you press left mouse button which places the table at the position. This makes sure that you can later interact with it. Now press F5 again to close the furnishing interface. Now you can interact with the table normally.

Now with your vampire build select slot one for instance and press R to save this build. This will safe your skills, your cp points, your vampire stage, your mundus, your gear and some other stuff.

Now move to the other free slot which should be empty. Press E and you are now naked (almost), have no vampirism and your skills and cp are all reset. Now you can start to set skills and cp, equip stuff you want and then safe this new Vampire-free build on the second slot by selecting the still empty slot and pressing R for saving your non-Vampire build. Just make sure that you don't accidentally select the Vampire slot before saving as this would delete your vampire build.

Now you have your pale order vampire build and a non vampire build. Every time you interact with the armory you can choose one of the slots depending what you want to play: You select the slot you want to equip, press E and voila!

jaws343 · September 15

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Pale Order is just healing, it doesn't buff your damage.

It buffs group damage. If you drop the healers and just have the DPS equip Pale Order in a trial, you can run 10 DPS and 2 tanks instead of 8 DPS, 2 tanks, and 2 healers. This may not increase any individual player's DPS, but it buffs group DPS by about 25%. In a dungeon, running 3 DPS and 1 tank instead of 2 DPS, 1 tank, and 1 healer, you buff group DPS by about 50%. Yes, this is more of a problem with dedicated, organized guild groups than your average PUG group. But a single item that buffs group DPS by 25%-50% would be really, really powerful. And there is probably no reliably effective way to make sure it works in "bad" groups but not "good" groups.

Ultimately, the mythic simply breaks group dynamics in a way ZOS wants to avoid. There are some sets that work in PvE but not PvP or vice versa (usually via the "against monsters" clause or "against players" clause or "when battle spirit is active" clause) because they break PvP/PvE dynamics in ways they want to avoid. They do not split the baby and try to make it kinda sorta work in both. Pale Order is gear that works in solo/duo scenarios but not larger groups.

So while it has two drawbacks, it is because without the second drawback, the first ceasing being much of a drawback at all in a good group.

Logically how many DPS would drop a dmg monster set/dmg mythic for a self heal... I see little dps actually doing that tbh. Be logical here. I think it'd be more likely all DPS in a trial running the best dmg increase mythic over a healing one.

You keep making this claim, that no one would drop healers to run pale order.

It is a demonstrably false assumption. Because the ring was literally nerfed for group play because groups were doing exactly that, dropping healers and running all DPS with the ring.

The entire thing you are complaining about was out in place to stop the thing you are trying to claim won't happen. It did happen and the ring was nerfed because of it.

Also, this whole having to change the entire build argument is weird. You literally don't. Just switch the ring for another ring in larger group content. Like death dealer. Or just a single trainee piece. No need to switch the entire build, just a single piece.

coop500 · September 15

Haven't read this entire thread, but basically the issue is: When this ring didn't have this restriction, DPS were indeed over-running it in group content and it made healers pointless or at least worth less in a group slot, so many people just did 3 DPS and 1 tank. This still happens of course with good groups and simple dungeons, but now healers are once again welcome and needed in harder content or PUGs.

Imagine a situation where all tanks and healers can equip a ring and tell you that they don't need you anymore, that you're not welcome to run group content with the character you built and loved?
I have seen you guys argue with folks here before about just wanting to play your way, with your characters as you want. But if you get what you guys want right now with Ring of the Pale Order, healers will no longer be welcome or able to play as the character they built up, same as you guys.

Part of the struggle too is there's some buffs that they can only provide through healing you, even by 1 tick of HP, but if they can't heal you, then they can never give you those buffs.

Please, instead of assuming everyone is just getting pissy for no reason and flipping out, actually listen to what they are saying and consider the fact that the very thing you are upset about, it will just be flipped and put onto most healers in the game. And it WILL happen, it HAS happened in the past, it's not just an assumption or unwarranted fear. The devs had to set it up how it is now BECAUSE it was happening widespread.

festegios · September 15

I fully disagree. I think it’s in a good spot right now.

BahometZ · September 15

I'm assuming OP wasn't around when Pale Order was introduced? We've been through all this before, testing and balance, and how it is now is pretty widely supported. Unlikely to change.
Lots of good suggestions in here for how to adjust without it in 12 person content.

Bucky_13 · September 15

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

w002exp wrote: »

This is how the mythic was originally structured however the change in reducing the effectiveness was added when it basically removed the need for healers in the game. All DPS simply equipped the ring and instead of two healers in your trial group you added two more DPS.

I believe the ring is working as intended and is balanced well for what it is, an item to help solo players with survivability when a healer is otherwise not available.

You should not need a healer in large group content but if you need training wheels look into Hexos Ward 5pc and Ice Heart Monster Helm.

I do see your point personally but every other mythic only has 1 drawback where as pale order has 2 which is a bit of a major setback imo.

Yet it's one of the strongest mythics in the game, for solo or duo content. It's so strong that if it didn't have those drawbacks, it'd be way too overpowered.

Stafford197 · September 15

Is there a reason you don’t just use the Armory system to swap out your builds?

You can have a solo/duo build, a dungeon build, a BGs build…. I’d imagine this would make your experience much better.

peacenote · September 15

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

w002exp wrote: »

This is how the mythic was originally structured however the change in reducing the effectiveness was added when it basically removed the need for healers in the game. All DPS simply equipped the ring and instead of two healers in your trial group you added two more DPS.

I believe the ring is working as intended and is balanced well for what it is, an item to help solo players with survivability when a healer is otherwise not available.

You should not need a healer in large group content but if you are looking for training wheels to get started in group play look into Hexos Ward 5pc and Ice Heart Monster Helm.

I understand but the other perk that I can't be healed by anyone but myself is still effective even in trials, so me being grouped with 11 people is taking my heals away when I do trials. I've tested the mythic in trials, Dungeons and the current battlegrounds. I've noticed the difference.

This is exactly why both penalties are needed.... because without the second requirement you can self-heal enough in some group content to not notice and it was not intended to replace healers. The whole point of the second penalty is to encourage players not to use it in group content.

As a healer main, hopefully we can agree to disagree as I absolutely, could not, disagree with you more.

Imagine if I could put on a mythic that would take away your ability to do damage when we were grouped, or I was within 20 meters of you. Or if I could put on a mythic that makes it so that in group content, everyone's taunts do not work. This mythic has been one of the bigger things that have made me angry in ESO, because as a healer, my role is TO HEAL OTHERS. Anyone in group content who decides that they want to keep people from performing their role is, in my opinion, being rude. You want to wear it in solo arenas, or in IA as a duo when both parties are specced for that? Great... go nuts. But wearing it when you know some of your allies are healers really is being inconsiderate. Although, OP, since you were new you may not have been trying to be inconsiderate, which is why I'm taking the time to explain the other side.

In fact, I just went through this like an hour ago. I queued up in a dungeon. I was monitoring my buffs and coverage, as all good healers do, and noticed that my radiating regen was not hitting one of the people in the group. I kept hitting it, and experimenting, trying to make sure I was properly covering this person and trying to figure out if maybe a bug was introduced with smart healing in the latest patch... until finally I remembered about the ring. Then I realized it was why my buff from the SPC set wasn't applying while others were - it requires you to overheal your allies, which you cannot do if you can't heal them at all.

Probably you haven't been a healer yet, but as a healer I can tell you there is nothing worse than desperately trying to figure out what might be wrong with your setup and why your abilities aren't working when you realize it is because of what someone else is wearing!!! Then, if the person wearing the ring in your group dies, you're torn between feeling bad that you couldn't help but also feeling a little salty ("serves them right") and frankly it just takes the fun out of the whole run.

Anyway, as others have stated the best solution to this problem is to put on any other ring in group content. You'll perform just as well as you would without it, even if it's a redundant ring to a set you already have that only has a good enchant, and you'll perform even better if you can find a ring that adds additional value, like Death Dealer's Fete or a Trainee ring.

TheRoamingSpirit · September 15

peacenote wrote: »

This is exactly why both penalties are needed.... because without the second requirement you can self-heal enough in some group content to not notice and it was not intended to replace healers. The whole point of the second penalty is to encourage players not to use it in group content.

As a healer main, hopefully we can agree to disagree as I absolutely, could not, disagree with you more. Imagine if I could put on a mythic that would take away your ability to do damage when we were grouped, or I was within 20 meters of you. Or if I could put on a mythic that makes it so that in group content, everyone's taunts do not work. This mythic has been one of the bigger things that have made me angry in ESO, because as a healer, my role is TO HEAL OTHERS. Anyone in group content who decides that they want to keep people from performing their role is, in my opinion, being rude. You want to wear it in solo arenas, or in IA as a duo when both parties are specced for that? Great... go nuts. But wearing it when you know some of your allies are healers really is being inconsiderate. Although, OP, since you were new you may not have been trying to be inconsiderate, which is why I'm taking the time to explain the other side.

In fact, I just went through this like an hour ago. I queued up in a dungeon. I was monitoring my buffs and coverage, as all good healers do, and noticed that my radiating regen was not hitting one of the people in the group. I kept hitting it, and experimenting, trying to make sure I was properly covering this person and trying to figure out if maybe a bug was introduced with smart healing in the latest patch... until finally I remembered about the ring. Then I realized it was why my buff from the SPC set wasn't applying while others were - it requires you to overheal your allies, which you cannot do if you can't heal them at all.

Probably you haven't been a healer yet, but as a healer I can tell you there is nothing worse than desperately trying to figure out what might be wrong with your setup and why your abilities aren't working when you realize it is because of what someone else is wearing!!! Then, if the person wearing the ring in your group dies, you're torn between feeling bad that you couldn't help but also feeling a little salty ("serves them right") and frankly it just takes the fun out of the whole run.

Anyway, as others have stated the best solution to this problem is to put on any other ring in group content. You'll perform just as well as you would without it, even if it's a redundant ring to a set you already have that only has a good enchant, and you'll perform even better if you can find a ring that adds additional value, like Death Dealer's Fete or a Trainee ring.

I suppose you don't run trials with vampires that use Sated Fury skill then, cause that skill doesn't allow healers to heal the vampire. I played a healer early in the game and honestly I still play healer builds. There is a skill that prevents healers from healing a vampire in case nobody realized it. It's a damage increase skill to increase your DPS.

But you know forget it, Just let this discussion end. Thanks for the hate...It's not appreciated...

katanagirl1 · September 15

I have read every post and there is no hate here. In fact, there have been several helpful suggestions for you.

Once you get everything set up properly, the armory can let you switch builds with just a few button clicks so you can have a build for solo play and one for group play on the same character.

I run Pale Order on one of my toons but those that do group play do not. There are other examples of gear that works better for solo and the bonuses are reduced for being in a group, this is not the only exception. I run Rallying Cry on a PvP toon and it loses a lot of healing when grouped.

We are all just trying to help.

sarahthes · September 15

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

This is exactly why both penalties are needed.... because without the second requirement you can self-heal enough in some group content to not notice and it was not intended to replace healers. The whole point of the second penalty is to encourage players not to use it in group content.

As a healer main, hopefully we can agree to disagree as I absolutely, could not, disagree with you more. Imagine if I could put on a mythic that would take away your ability to do damage when we were grouped, or I was within 20 meters of you. Or if I could put on a mythic that makes it so that in group content, everyone's taunts do not work. This mythic has been one of the bigger things that have made me angry in ESO, because as a healer, my role is TO HEAL OTHERS. Anyone in group content who decides that they want to keep people from performing their role is, in my opinion, being rude. You want to wear it in solo arenas, or in IA as a duo when both parties are specced for that? Great... go nuts. But wearing it when you know some of your allies are healers really is being inconsiderate. Although, OP, since you were new you may not have been trying to be inconsiderate, which is why I'm taking the time to explain the other side.

In fact, I just went through this like an hour ago. I queued up in a dungeon. I was monitoring my buffs and coverage, as all good healers do, and noticed that my radiating regen was not hitting one of the people in the group. I kept hitting it, and experimenting, trying to make sure I was properly covering this person and trying to figure out if maybe a bug was introduced with smart healing in the latest patch... until finally I remembered about the ring. Then I realized it was why my buff from the SPC set wasn't applying while others were - it requires you to overheal your allies, which you cannot do if you can't heal them at all.

Probably you haven't been a healer yet, but as a healer I can tell you there is nothing worse than desperately trying to figure out what might be wrong with your setup and why your abilities aren't working when you realize it is because of what someone else is wearing!!! Then, if the person wearing the ring in your group dies, you're torn between feeling bad that you couldn't help but also feeling a little salty ("serves them right") and frankly it just takes the fun out of the whole run.

Anyway, as others have stated the best solution to this problem is to put on any other ring in group content. You'll perform just as well as you would without it, even if it's a redundant ring to a set you already have that only has a good enchant, and you'll perform even better if you can find a ring that adds additional value, like Death Dealer's Fete or a Trainee ring.

I suppose you don't run trials with vampires that use Sated Fury skill then, cause that skill doesn't allow healers to heal the vampire. I played a healer early in the game and honestly I still play healer builds. There is a skill that prevents healers from healing a vampire in case nobody realized it. It's a damage increase skill to increase your DPS.

But you know forget it, Just let this discussion end. Thanks for the hate...It's not appreciated...

We know about it (vamp toggle), because we abused it in trials before pale order ring was nerfed.

TaSheen · September 15

No one here is hating on you guys....

Dagoth_Rac · September 15

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Logically how many DPS would drop a dmg monster set/dmg mythic for a self heal... I see little dps actually doing that tbh. Be logical here. I think it'd be more likely all DPS in a trial running the best dmg increase mythic over a healing one.

Logically, every group DPS would drop their monster set/damage mythic for the opportunity to have more DPS at their side. In a group setting, the goal is maximum group DPS, not maximum individual DPS. And if a non-damage mythic could be leveraged for higher group DPS, they will take it. It is all about the team, not the player.

10 DPS doing 100,000 is significantly more group damage than 8 DPS doing 110,000 damage. A good group cares about group damage, not individual damage. There is simply no damage mythic that comes anyone even close to having 2 more full DPS players. When the ring did not have the two drawbacks, every good group was running 10 DPS and no healers. With 20,000 heals per second passively, you are basically topped off at full health constantly and, as long as you do not get one-shot, you do not need dedicated healers. Dedicated healers already cannot heal a one-shot. They exist to keep steady high heals going on the group to counteract the constant incoming damage in trials/dungeons.

With Pale Order providing the steady high healing, dedicated healers were obsolete. ZOS did not like the fact that healers were no longer welcome in endgame content. The alternatives were a large nerf to the Pale Order healing, so that it was not enough to be useful and you still need dedicated healers, or adding a second drawback that allowed the steady high heals in solo/duo content, but not in dungeons and trials.

Unfortunately, your understandable desire to continue using Pale Order in dungeons and trials is mutually exclusive with needing healers. It was tried and there was extensive real game experience that showed they were just not compatible. When it came to choosing between "players can still get powerful heals in groups with bad healers" versus "no healers at endgame", ZOS chose to keep healers at endgame and force bad healers to either get better or the DPS to slot self-healing abilities.

I think ZOS is very sympathetic to players in bad groups with bad healers, but not sympathetic enough to sacrifice the need for healers in group content.

Treeshka · September 16

No one is ever going to toss healers away. They buff you. Give shields. Give buffs. With or without this mythic.

Also this mythic changed because you could Vampire Toggle to the insane stacks back in the day, and keep up the heals. Vampire toggle was blocking outside heals and that mythic was the only thing that you could use to heal yourself.

Maybe they can revert the change since Vampire Toggle does not work like this anymore but literally using this mythic in a raid is hassle while running Velothi is just more damage.

alpha_synuclein · September 16

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Also I don't see how Pale Order would render healers ineffective if Pale order is only self-healing not group healing so healers would still be useful in trials.

Yes, it would. It did already. When Pale order was first introduced it has no restriction when it comes to healing while you are in group. And it lead to groups preferring 10 DDs with Pale instead of healers. That was the reason why it was adjusted. Let's keep it as is is now.

ADarklore · September 16

The ring is obviously intended to be used for Solo/Duo players with companions. What you're asking for, is that you want to run a full group of DPS and not need any healer- which is NOT the intended use of this ring.

The ring is fine as is and is mostly used by those who the ring is specifically designed for.

giovani1994a · September 18

As a main healer in battlegrounds, there's nothing more frustrating than watching people use the Ring of the Pale Order and then die right in front of me. I understand that you might not trust others to keep you alive or that healers are rare in battlegrounds, but what healers supposed to do in battlegrounds when 2 out of 3 allies are wearing the Ring of the Pale Order?

Do you really believe that whatever boost they give to the ring it would compete with the heals of a good healer? Many sets, by the way, rely on healing to trigger their buffs therefore the excuse of still being "fine" because healers can still provide buffs is not 100% true. Ring of pale doesn't need a buff in group play at all, on the contrary it should give you nothing when you are in group in order to discourage people creating these issues.

Last but not least, its easy to guess that the 8v8 battlegrounds will have mostly a ballgroup gameplay; disabling the cross healing with the ring of pale sound like a horrible idea

P.s : At least when you people start dying and you see one healer do 1m + healing have another mythic with you and replace it.