Suggestion to a small change for Ring of Pale Order Mythic

TheRoamingSpirit

colossalvoids wrote: »

Sorry if it came that way but I tried to explain a bit how it works in a broader game's field, that's not my first language so apologies if it came in a negative way. The item in question was changed multiple times just because how broken some of its use cases were when it was introduced and it's still the best item you can have for any solo build for vast majority of players, especially ones who don't play nightblades or sorcerers having a ton of passive self healing.

The easiest fix for it is to have a second ring for group or PvP activities, like Death Dealers Fete as an example. Changing PO isn't what you really want there, as items have a "power budget", speaking broadly if some thing is changed about the item this value is getting recalculated, so when for example one of the downsides is dropped it would require a quite significant nerf to the item potentially making it useless for everyone, so for you also. That way some sets became obsolete throughout the years with direct or indirect changes.

I probably just misunderstood your reply, I'm sorry.

I play a stage 4 vamp khajiit dragonknight as my first character and I scale off of Pale Order being the centerpiece of the build. At least that is what I'm trying to do. I have Sorcerer characters but they have different builds/playstyles. To be honest, I don't see how it can be misused if it was changed. I'm autistic as I stated earlier, So I may not understand things as well as most. I just currently don't see how I can run trials or the new BG's with my khajiit DK. I've currently been avoiding the content...I've tried running trials before I got pale order but the other players just sped through it and I didn't have much fun cause I didn't get to do anything nor get anything. I want to make my characters able to do all content cause I can't collect the trial sets unless I run trials.

TheRoamingSpirit

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

I don't understand the build issue. Does the pale order ring's healing somehow increase your damage done, or are you just self-healing with the ring by doing lifesteal damage?

If it's the former, yeah I can understand the frustration.

If it's the latter though, (and your dps is otherwise high enough for that particular content, ) then all you need to do is to replace the ring with another set piece (one piece of gear, not dozens), and maybe slot a self heal like vigor if you want some extra insurance. Good groups always have heals provided for you. That's what the healer role is for.

Ring of the Pale Order is self lifesteal, you heal 20% of dmg you deal but it only applies to self and you can't be healed by anyone but yourself and healing % reduces per player your grouped with.

wolfie1.0.

the ring is designed to enable solo content, recognizing the impact that additional players have on difficulty levels. keep in mind that in trial groups while you dont get healing from others you still get all of the other buffs that are provided from group mechs. your character is supercharged as it were, in a large group setting working well.

in small groups and solo you dont have access to every buff, or every benefit without some major downsides.

so removing the reduction would either eliminate the need for a healer, or would make the ring best in slot for all group content, making sure its a requirement. Something that gets that OP will be a nerf. Also, keep in mind that because its a % healing value its already a rare item bonus.

so the only ways that i see removing the additional person reduction occurring is either if its changed so that you can't receive buffs from others in addition to healing, or if the healing is reduced or changed to a flat fixed value.

really though, in a trail setting, a duo of healers, or even one really good healer should be able to outperform pale order and allow you to focus on a better DPS build.

as far as it being difficult to change gear, thats why we have the armory system. i have 2 builds on most characters. most have pale order build and non pale order as a set up. then its a few clicks and gear is changed. its easier to swap gear than some of the dungeon mechanics

Heren

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

We only wanted to suggest a way to make pale order useful for more content, not discussing balance or dps numbers either.

But your suggestion is about balancing, simple as that ! And if you want to make suggestion without reading the reactions of other people, i'm sorry but don't do them on forums.

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Pale order only heals self not group and doesn't scale off group dps. Why is heal decreased when grouped when it traditionally gets no benefit from group. Instead gets drawback? 6+ person groups pale order gives wearer 0% healing causing them to have to change skills or sets just to play other content.

That's the last time I'm repeating this.

Someone already said that it could lead to a situation where everyone would wear pale order and thus rendering healers characters useless - that's the argument for the restriction when grouped. You can accept it or dismiss it as you wish, but that's the apparent reason why it's restricted when grouped. And yeah it impact battleground as well, but that's the case for other things too, balance in PvE can also restrict things in PvP.

And you can repeat the tooltip of the Ring ad nauseam, or repeat your stance and your feelings just the same, it won't make them more valid and certainly won't convince me.

colossalvoids

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Sorry if it came that way but I tried to explain a bit how it works in a broader game's field, that's not my first language so apologies if it came in a negative way. The item in question was changed multiple times just because how broken some of its use cases were when it was introduced and it's still the best item you can have for any solo build for vast majority of players, especially ones who don't play nightblades or sorcerers having a ton of passive self healing.

The easiest fix for it is to have a second ring for group or PvP activities, like Death Dealers Fete as an example. Changing PO isn't what you really want there, as items have a "power budget", speaking broadly if some thing is changed about the item this value is getting recalculated, so when for example one of the downsides is dropped it would require a quite significant nerf to the item potentially making it useless for everyone, so for you also. That way some sets became obsolete throughout the years with direct or indirect changes.

I probably just misunderstood your reply, I'm sorry.

I play a stage 4 vamp khajiit dragonknight as my first character and I scale off of Pale Order being the centerpiece of the build. At least that is what I'm trying to do. I have Sorcerer characters but they have different builds/playstyles. To be honest, I don't see how it can be misused if it was changed. I'm autistic as I stated earlier, So I may not understand things as well as most. I just currently don't see how I can run trials or the new BG's with my khajiit DK. I've currently been avoiding the content...I've tried running trials before I got pale order but the other players just sped through it and I didn't have much fun cause I didn't get to do anything nor get anything. I want to make my characters able to do all content cause I can't collect the trial sets unless I run trials.

Dk is probably most rough class with self healing while doing damage, especially if you do not use flame lash or can spam burning embers ability due to being stamina based, for example. So if burning embers is out of equation and you rely on PO for self healing as it doesn't do anything else your best bet would be either have a Vigour skill on a backbar as emergency heal or actually rely on healer in group content, which most people already do as it's their role in a party. You would still need to have another ring slotted, where Death Dealer's is actually a great option boosting health pool quite significantly. For PvP having the same build with or without PO is a death sentence, this mode works significantly different and is basically impossible to compete with a player who actually geared for PvP. You can have more or less rounded build for all content but both sides would suffer in this case and it would be quite hard endeavour to set up, not even talking about this probably excluding you from playing with anyone else but your partner.

TheRoamingSpirit

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

the ring is designed to enable solo content, recognizing the impact that additional players have on difficulty levels. keep in mind that in trial groups while you dont get healing from others you still get all of the other buffs that are provided from group mechs. your character is supercharged as it were, in a large group setting working well.

in small groups and solo you dont have access to every buff, or every benefit without some major downsides.

so removing the reduction would either eliminate the need for a healer, or would make the ring best in slot for all group content, making sure its a requirement. Something that gets that OP will be a nerf. Also, keep in mind that because its a % healing value its already a rare item bonus.

so the only ways that i see removing the additional person reduction occurring is either if its changed so that you can't receive buffs from others in addition to healing, or if the healing is reduced or changed to a flat fixed value.

really though, in a trail setting, a duo of healers, or even one really good healer should be able to outperform pale order and allow you to focus on a better DPS build.

as far as it being difficult to change gear, thats why we have the armory system. i have 2 builds on most characters. most have pale order build and non pale order as a set up. then its a few clicks and gear is changed. its easier to swap gear than some of the dungeon mechanics

If I'm grouped with 5+ people the lifesteal perk from Pale Order is ineffective, So I can't heal with my gear piece and have to spam my heals cause a healer can't heal me while I'm wearing Pale Order. I have buffs for myself cause I'm use to playing solo and I don't rely on others due to I don't want to burden others. I've played a healer role in game before I know how difficult it is to keep a watch on 4 people in a dungeon. Let alone 12 person trial...Most likely even more of a challenge for a healer.

TheDragonMeister

I don't see how healers in trials would be ineffective bc healers traditionally do give buffs to the group as well and wouldn't they be focused on healing the tanks that receive more dmg than anyone else in the group?

I just don't see the healer/support role being useless if someone is running pale order in a trial since PALE ORDER DOES NOT EFFECT GROUP, ONLY SELF IS EFFECTED

Last I check on pc/na server everyone build their healers to give not just heals but buffs to group members. HEALERS ARE NOT JUST ABOUT HEALING, THEY ARE GROUP SUPPORT.

I'm not trying to seem rude but healers are not 100% about healing from what I learned.

Varana

I use the ring for arenas and IA. "Only" 20% of damage is a lot. In a good group and with some skill, you can heal for half or even most of your health pool every single second.

The mythic is designed to be used in 1- or 2-man scenarios. The drawback is there exactly to prevent it being used in a group. In a decent group, you shouldn't be required to heal yourself in most fights, you have one or two healers for that. Stand still in front of your healer and do damage, and move only when mechanics require it. Trust your healers. (Not in dungeon PUGs, though. ) For organised groups, I do advise to have a gear loadout that differs from solo play. Or at least, before going into a group, swap the Pale Order ring with another mythic - Markyn or Death Dealers are also rings that give you some benefits in a fight, so you don't have to change anything else.

There are mythics that buff groups, there are mythics that are intended for solo use, or PvP, or specific builds, or even for stealing. Not every mythic is viable in every use case.

TheRoamingSpirit

colossalvoids wrote: »

Dk is probably most rough class with self healing while doing damage, especially if you do not use flame lash or can spam burning embers ability due to being stamina based, for example. So if burning embers is out of equation and you rely on PO for self healing as it doesn't do anything else your best bet would be either have a Vigour skill on a backbar as emergency heal or actually rely on healer in group content, which most people already do as it's their role in a party. You would still need to have another ring slotted, where Death Dealer's is actually a great option boosting health pool quite significantly. For PvP having the same build with or without PO is a death sentence, this mode works significantly different and is basically impossible to compete with a player who actually geared for PvP. You can have more or less rounded build for all content but both sides would suffer in this case and it would be quite hard endeavour to set up, not even talking about this probably excluding you from playing with anyone else but your partner.

I play a mag DK cause I'm stage 4 vamp, I have Inferno Staff & 2H. I use burning embers and molten whip. I'm primarily Magicka resource. Or Hybrid with mag & stam. I plan on getting Death Dealer's Fete for one of my Sorcerer characters. I build my characters for roleplay and cross content. So I can enjoy any content at anytime with any character I want to play on at the time. My forum signature has a current list of all my characters I have in game. All have a different playstyle for each character.

mdjessup4906

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

If I'm grouped with 5+ people the lifesteal perk from Pale Order is ineffective, So I can't heal with my gear piece and have to spam my heals cause a healer can't heal me while I'm wearing Pale Order. I have buffs for myself cause I'm use to playing solo and I don't rely on others due to I don't want to burden others. I've played a healer role in game before I know how difficult it is to keep a watch on 4 people in a dungeon. Let alone 12 person trial...Most likely even more of a challenge for a healer.

Healer is a difficult role, and that's why Healers are awesome and you should let them take care of you when in organized group content. You aren't a burden, anymore than the tank is. It's what we signed up for.

Source: I lead normal trials, and adore pale order ring and use it all the time (but NOT in group).

notyuu

If they removed the diminishing effect from number of group members then they'd need to re-add the cap to the healing per instance to avoid the ring being op, if I recall correctly it was capped at 4.2k healing

LaintalAy wrote: »

Why can't it just drop from Dragonthorn plants? At the same rate as Aetherial dust.

What?

TheDragonMeister

I just don't see how you are all criticizing a suggestion to pale order when already there is a mythic out that basically renders some to one-shot bosses being Oakensoul Ring that gives you almost all huge buffs in the game at a small drawback of losing weapon swap.

Oakensoul is really overpowered and live in game yet this simple suggestion is causing you all to flip out like it's a crime or something. Makes no sense to me. Seems silly just to be this negative about a suggestion. It's the devs choice if the mythic gets a change or not. We just made a suggestion.

TaSheen

From what little I know about it, once Pale Order released, trials leads would require anyone wearing it to either remove it, or leave the trial. Is that now not the case?

TheDragonMeister

TaSheen wrote: »

From what little I know about it, once Pale Order released, trials leads would require anyone wearing it to either remove it, or leave the trial. Is that now not the case?

Currently Pale Order is ineffective in trials and will also be ineffective in the 8v8 bgs coming in update 44 due to the group size rendering pale order heals useless.

TheDragonMeister

The 8v8 bgs in the stream where the more casual based larger arenas but the 4v4 is smaller and more deathmatch focused bc of little to no hiding places.

TaSheen

Hmm. Apparently trials leads just decided not to worry about it if people insisted on using it when it wasn't appropriate for group content to begin with.

TheRoamingSpirit

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Healer is a difficult role, and that's why Healers are awesome and you should let them take care of you when in organized group content. You aren't a burden, anymore than the tank is. It's what we signed up for.

Source: I lead normal trials, and adore pale order ring and use it all the time (but NOT in group).

I know healers are doing great, I usually play a Tank/Healer when running group dungeon with my twin. Just me and my twin. and 2 companions now that they added companions to ESO. But again, I try to keep myself alive so the healer has one less person to worry about, It's part of my mentality...I tend to think I'm in the way of others so I kinda try to stay out of the way so I'm not a burden. And in the update 44, the 8v8 BG's I can't heal from pale order. I've played PVP before: Cyrodiil, BG's, and IC. I've seen this alot of times where snipers with take out the healers of the group leaving the DPS and tanks with no healers. I'd like if Pale Order would work cause I'm not hardcore in PVP so the 4v4 BG's are going to be too challenging for me on my DK Khajiit.

heaven13

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

If I'm grouped with 5+ people the lifesteal perk from Pale Order is ineffective, So I can't heal with my gear piece and have to spam my heals cause a healer can't heal me while I'm wearing Pale Order. I have buffs for myself cause I'm use to playing solo and I don't rely on others due to I don't want to burden others.

And if you took off your ring, your healer could heal you. If you're going to play group content, particularly in more difficult content, please be prepared to play as a team, and not as a solo person surrounded by other people.

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

I don't see how healers in trials would be ineffective bc healers traditionally do give buffs to the group as well and wouldn't they be focused on healing the tanks that receive more dmg than anyone else in the group?

I just don't see the healer/support role being useless if someone is running pale order in a trial since PALE ORDER DOES NOT EFFECT GROUP, ONLY SELF IS EFFECTED

Last I check on pc/na server everyone build their healers to give not just heals but buffs to group members. HEALERS ARE NOT JUST ABOUT HEALING, THEY ARE GROUP SUPPORT.

I'm not trying to seem rude but healers are not 100% about healing from what I learned.

Healers aren't just healing, but healing is still part of their role.

Additionally, healers use multiple different spells (depending on class) and many of these can heal more than one person at a time. So you can heal the tank and still heal other people. In particularly tank-heavy encounters, you can have one healer focus on tank and the other on the group. But they're still healing. A healer who only casts heals and no buffs isn't a good healer, sure, but neither should they be only casting buffs and no heals.

Are you familiar with the Sunspire trial? There is a mechanic that REQUIRES healing. You cannot heal yourself because you are completely encased in ice and unable to move. The healer has to get your health all the way to 100% before you are released. If they can't do this, you die (and often the explosion of you dying wipes the group). Even if the ring was effective in a group, you still wouldn't be able to heal yourself because you'd be frozen and unable to do damage. So you wouldn't be able to heal yourself and a healer couldn't heal you. Congratulations, you just wiped the group.

You both seem a little more inexperienced, so it's normal not to be aware of some of this stuff. I'd advise considering the points people have made and trying to look at it through a different perspective. None of us want the ring nerfed; I'm sure plenty of us use it in solo content ourselves! But the suggestions you've made would absolutely lead to it being nerfed into oblivion because it would end up way overpowered in group content.

TheDragonMeister

The main thing that got this discussion is bc of update 44 releasing 4v4 and 8v8 bgs. Chaos ball and Capture the relic will be restricted to the 8v8 maps and those are the bg games I enjoy most. Tho bc of group size my nightblade vamp will have little to no healing in 8v8 pvp. No healing in pvp = dead on the spot pretty much.

virtus753

notyuu wrote: »

If they removed the diminishing effect from number of group members then they'd need to re-add the cap to the healing per instance to avoid the ring being op, if I recall correctly it was capped at 4.2k healing

It was originally uncapped on PTS but went through several incarnations to find a balance. It gained its cap as a second drawback (or an additional component to the drawback) before it ever hit live.

PTS v6.2.0: 15% uncapped

PTS v.6.2.2: still 15% heal return but with a cap of 3750 health returned per instance of damage

Live v6.2.5: raised to 18% but cap lowered to 2750

PTS v7.0.0 (proceeding untouched to Live with v7.0.5): raised to 20%, uncapped, and reduced in effectiveness per group member

The hit to its effectiveness in BGs was noted at the time. Pulling back on the marginalization of healers in small group content (like dungeon HMs) seemed to be the higher priority.

mdjessup4906

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

The main thing that got this discussion is bc of update 44 releasing 4v4 and 8v8 bgs. Chaos ball and Capture the relic will be restricted to the 8v8 maps and those are the bg games I enjoy most. Tho bc of group size my nightblade vamp will have little to no healing in 8v8 pvp. No healing in pvp = dead on the spot pretty much.

I see your point with the bgs. Idk what they're thinking, just zos being zos I guess.

TheDragonMeister

heaven13 wrote: »

Healers aren't just healing, but healing is still part of their role.

Additionally, healers use multiple different spells (depending on class) and many of these can heal more than one person at a time. So you can heal the tank and still heal other people. In particularly tank-heavy encounters, you can have one healer focus on tank and the other on the group. But they're still healing. A healer who only casts heals and no buffs isn't a good healer, sure, but neither should they be only casting buffs and no heals.

Are you familiar with the Sunspire trial? There is a mechanic that REQUIRES healing. You cannot heal yourself because you are completely encased in ice and unable to move. The healer has to get your health all the way to 100% before you are released. If they can't do this, you die (and often the explosion of you dying wipes the group). Even if the ring was effective in a group, you still wouldn't be able to heal yourself because you'd be frozen and unable to do damage. So you wouldn't be able to heal yourself and a healer couldn't heal you. Congratulations, you just wiped the group.

You both seem a little more inexperienced, so it's normal not to be aware of some of this stuff. I'd advise considering the points people have made and trying to look at it through a different perspective. None of us want the ring nerfed; I'm sure plenty of us use it in solo content ourselves! But the suggestions you've made would absolutely lead to it being nerfed into oblivion because it would end up way overpowered in group content.

I never paticipated in trials so I don't know the mechanics of all of them. But that doesn't mean I don't want to try. Besides if their is a specific healing mechanic then I'd be on a different character for that trial. I have 5 characters. But my nightblade vamp also runs the sated fury skill so I can't be healed by others when it's active anyway so I run pale order bc nightblades don't have many heals either. which is why I said that specific build relies on pale order. I have other characters but they aren't nearly as strong.

virtus753

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

The main thing that got this discussion is bc of update 44 releasing 4v4 and 8v8 bgs. Chaos ball and Capture the relic will be restricted to the 8v8 maps and those are the bg games I enjoy most. Tho bc of group size my nightblade vamp will have little to no healing in 8v8 pvp. No healing in pvp = dead on the spot pretty much.

I see your point with the bgs. Idk what they're thinking, just zos being zos I guess.

This was their comment in v6.2.2:

"As we've seen a lot of discussion on this set, we’ve decided to put a maximum heal threshold on the set to help reduce the swingy-ness between PvE and PvP. We went with a value that was relatively hard to hit in PvP (you'll have to hit for 25k+ in a single attack to see this cap) but relatively easy in PvE. This should help lower the staggering HPS by 25-35% on most builds, although we will keep a close eye on the set. We're aware of the concerns that it has in terms of total healing output and how it impacts the relevancy of healers/supports in end game, and will be monitoring data on the item to see impact. Moving forward, we will likely adjust the Healing % and Max Cap from here on out, if any further adjustments are made."

Two updates later, they implemented the scaling heal by group size.

TheRoamingSpirit

heaven13 wrote: »

And if you took off your ring, your healer could heal you. If you're going to play group content, particularly in more difficult content, please be prepared to play as a team, and not as a solo person surrounded by other people.

Healers aren't just healing, but healing is still part of their role.

Additionally, healers use multiple different spells (depending on class) and many of these can heal more than one person at a time. So you can heal the tank and still heal other people. In particularly tank-heavy encounters, you can have one healer focus on tank and the other on the group. But they're still healing. A healer who only casts heals and no buffs isn't a good healer, sure, but neither should they be only casting buffs and no heals.

Are you familiar with the Sunspire trial? There is a mechanic that REQUIRES healing. You cannot heal yourself because you are completely encased in ice and unable to move. The healer has to get your health all the way to 100% before you are released. If they can't do this, you die (and often the explosion of you dying wipes the group). Even if the ring was effective in a group, you still wouldn't be able to heal yourself because you'd be frozen and unable to do damage. So you wouldn't be able to heal yourself and a healer couldn't heal you. Congratulations, you just wiped the group.

You both seem a little more inexperienced, so it's normal not to be aware of some of this stuff. I'd advise considering the points people have made and trying to look at it through a different perspective. None of us want the ring nerfed; I'm sure plenty of us use it in solo content ourselves! But the suggestions you've made would absolutely lead to it being nerfed into oblivion because it would end up way overpowered in group content.

I am inexperienced in trials cause I tried twice but both times the group sped through it before I could even accept the quest for the trial, I not ashamed to admit that I never really got to do trials. But can you be a little nicer with your replies? If some trials require healing I'll play on my tank sorc rather than my vamp DK. Not changing my gear pieces.

mdjessup4906

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

[
I never paticipated in trials so I don't know the mechanics of all of them. But that doesn't mean I don't want to try. Besides if their is a specific healing mechanic then I'd be on a different character for that trial. I have 5 characters. But my nightblade vamp also runs the sated fury skill so I can't be healed by others when it's active anyway so I run pale order bc nightblades don't have many heals either. which is why I said that specific build relies on pale order. I have other characters but they aren't nearly as strong.

Trials and dungeons are built around the idea of group coordination. The whole point is to play a role on the team. If you are willing to switch off for this one mech, then why not others?

Also, thr trial sanity edge has a similar ice mech to sunspire. It's always something.

Varana

There are also PvP healers, some even queue into BGs.

The problem with the ring in BGs is that you can't rely on there being a healer on your random team. If there is, the lack of the ring's healing is much less of an issue.

TheDragonMeister

So from what I understand if your in team play you don't run any heals or buffs if your DPS. You just deal damage but you don't buff or heal bc thats the other teammate's job?

heaven13 wrote: »

And if you took off your ring, your healer could heal you. If you're going to play group content, particularly in more difficult content, please be prepared to play as a team, and not as a solo person surrounded by other people.

TheDragonMeister

Varana wrote: »

There are also PvP healers, some even queue into BGs.

The problem with the ring in BGs is that you can't rely on there being a healer on your random team. If there is, the lack of the ring's healing is much less of an issue.

Everytime I'm in PvP the healers get killed immediately or are just camped on the starting platform in a bg.

mdjessup4906

I know healers are doing great, I usually play a Tank/Healer when running group dungeon with my twin. Just me and my twin. and 2 companions now that they added companions to ESO. But again, I try to keep myself alive so the healer has one less person to worry about, It's part of my mentality...I tend to think I'm in the way of others so I kinda try to stay out of the way so I'm not a burden. And in the update 44, the 8v8 BG's I can't heal from pale order. I've played PVP before: Cyrodiil, BG's, and IC. I've seen this alot of times where snipers with take out the healers of the group leaving the DPS and tanks with no healers. I'd like if Pale Order would work cause I'm not hardcore in PVP so the 4v4 BG's are going to be too challenging for me on my DK Khajiit.[/quote]


Sounds like you should try tanking for a full group of humans. Staying alive is part of the job. Welcome to the club, if you're so inclined

(I'm a tank lol)

AcadianPaladin

I think the twins have some thoughtful concerns and don't mean to discount them.

As a player who runs Oakensoul on every character, that is also a mythic that is not appropriate for trials. All those buffs the ring gives you are redundant in trials, but the one bar restriction remains. So I'd argue there is a hidden second drawback to Oakensoul when it comes to large groups. Just a thought.

As a healer, I used to hate Pale Order, having routinely spent lots of magic before realizing my target was wearing Pale Order. Thankfully, the new UI health bar feature let's me see right away if my heals will be wasted.