Suggestion to a small change for Ring of Pale Order Mythic

TheRoamingSpirit

I love the idea of Ring of the Pale Order but unlike the other mythics, this one has 2 drawbacks instead of 1. My suggestion is to remove one of the drawbacks, in specific the one that lowers the effectiveness of the perk per member you are grouped with. Grouping with 5 or more people makes this mythic useless for gameplay. Me and my twin have character builds that are built around the ring of pale order but we'd like to do more content with these characters like trials and even the new 8v8 battlegrounds that are coming with update 44. The other drawback is you can't be healed by anyone but yourself which is perfectly fine to stay as that is part of what makes it a strong and useful mythic.

I'm sorry if this is alot to ask but I feel it may allow more freedom for builds if gear can be used in any content without nerving your character build.

Others can discuss here about their thoughts of my suggestion and I can explain more if needed. Please no negative criticism though, I love ESO I have been a member on ESO since Morrowind's release.

If anyone wants tips on how to make a build using Ring of the Pale Order feel free to ask me.

TheDragonMeister

I have to agree with this as I'm TheRoamingSpirit's twin.

I run a nightblade vamp lifesteal build that scales off the healing 20% of damage dealt from pale order and reducing healing by 4% per group member seems okay in some cases but when it comes to other content like 12 player trials or the new 8v8 battlegrounds renders this mythic completely useless. My nightblade vamp build healing depends on this mythic and I'd like to enjoy more content in the game with my all of my characters as I really enjoy this game.

w002exp

This is how the mythic was originally structured however the change in reducing the effectiveness was added when it basically removed the need for healers in the game. All DPS simply equipped the ring and instead of two healers in your trial group you added two more DPS.

I believe the ring is working as intended and is balanced well for what it is, an item to help solo players with survivability when a healer is otherwise not available.

You should not need a healer in large group content but if you are looking for training wheels to get started in group play look into Hexos Ward 5pc and Ice Heart Monster Helm.

TheDragonMeister

w002exp wrote: »

This is how the mythic was originally structured however the change in reducing the effectiveness was added when it basically removed the need for healers in the game. All DPS simply equipped the ring and instead of two healers in your trial group you added two more DPS.

I believe the ring is working as intended and is balanced well for what it is, an item to help solo players with survivability when a healer is otherwise not available.

You should not need a healer in large group content but if you need training wheels look into Hexos Ward 5pc and Ice Heart Monster Helm.

I do see your point personally but every other mythic only has 1 drawback where as pale order has 2 which is a bit of a major setback imo.

Heren

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

I do see your point personally but every other mythic only has 1 drawback where as pale order has 2 which is a bit of a major setback imo.

Balance don't work that way, sorry.

TheDragonMeister

Mythic buffs \/
Ring of the Pale Order
(1 item) Restore 20% of the damage you deal as Health. This value is decreased by 4% per ally you are grouped with. You cannot be healed by anyone but yourself, your pets, or your Companions.

Drawback: Cannot be healed by anyone but youself, your pets, or your companions
Drawback 2: Healing value decreases by 4% per member you are grouped with. <<< This is the drawback in question

TheRoamingSpirit

w002exp wrote: »

This is how the mythic was originally structured however the change in reducing the effectiveness was added when it basically removed the need for healers in the game. All DPS simply equipped the ring and instead of two healers in your trial group you added two more DPS.

I believe the ring is working as intended and is balanced well for what it is, an item to help solo players with survivability when a healer is otherwise not available.

You should not need a healer in large group content but if you are looking for training wheels to get started in group play look into Hexos Ward 5pc and Ice Heart Monster Helm.

I understand but the other perk that I can't be healed by anyone but myself is still effective even in trials, so me being grouped with 11 people is taking my heals away when I do trials. I've tested the mythic in trials, Dungeons and the current battlegrounds. I've noticed the difference.

colossalvoids

The item currently is balanced around using it while solo/duo, any changes would basically require lowering healing amounts which would be pretty unfortunate let's just say.

Game in a sense require having multiple gear sets if you want to do different types of content as if using right tools for the right situations, in this case it won't be too cumbersome having other mythic ring from group content or any other mythic really and having the ring from one of the main sets already equipped. Seems like a small drawback comparing to people having almost full 200 slots for just gear and consumables.

TheDragonMeister

Heren wrote: »

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

I do see your point personally but every other mythic only has 1 drawback where as pale order has 2 which is a bit of a major setback imo.

Balance don't work that way, sorry.

I'm not suggesting balance firstly. I'm just saying that compared to other mythics. Pale order being self-support based and is not able to be used in all content meaning it's not following the "play your way" style the devs are going for.

TheRoamingSpirit

colossalvoids wrote: »

The item currently is balanced around using it while solo/duo, any changes would basically require lowering healing amounts which would be pretty unfortunate let's just say.

Game in a sense require having multiple gear sets if you want to do different types of content as if using right tools for the right situations, in this case it won't be too cumbersome having other mythic ring from group content or any other mythic really and having the ring from one of the main sets already equipped. Seems like a small drawback comparing to people having almost full 200 slots for just gear and consumables.

I don't keep multiple different gear sets, I'm Autistic and can't remember to change my gear for certain content. I like to make builds that allow me to play any content with my character builds. I love Ring of Pale Order and I don't want to drop it while running trials or BG's...Hard enough for me to remember to keep my rotations. I'm not able to change gear frequently due to I can't understand why I need to change if I know the sets work with my playstyle. I'm a gamer and I have different characters for different builds. And that is simply for roleplay and cause I can't remember to keep changing gear.

TheDragonMeister

colossalvoids wrote: »

The item currently is balanced around using it while solo/duo, any changes would basically require lowering healing amounts which would be pretty unfortunate let's just say.

Game in a sense require having multiple gear sets if you want to do different types of content as if using right tools for the right situations, in this case it won't be too cumbersome having other mythic ring from group content or any other mythic really and having the ring from one of the main sets already equipped. Seems like a small drawback comparing to people having almost full 200 slots for just gear and consumables.

When solo/duo the mythic works fine but more than that you get less healing due to the mythic -4% per group member. So in a 6 person group your healing from pale order is completely 0% but you still can't be healed by anyone but yourself. meaning this mythic makes you weaker when running a trial bc healers in the trial can't heal you so you pretty much make yourself weaker.

If they intend on keeping the decreased healing at least cap the minimum to maybe 12% or 8% minimum for larger group content so the mythic still has some effectiveness.

Inyhel

The whole point of the limitation is to stop it from being overpowered.
As a solo player I have no problems at all. I'd rather it stay this way than for them to balance out it by nerfing the ring some other way.

heaven13

20% of the damage you do as heal; let's say you do 100k dps, you're getting 20k just from your damage, plus any self heals you have. You kill things much faster because, as others pointed out, trials were swapping out healer roles for 2 additional dps instead (making healers irrelevant). There's really not a way to balance this ring to be used in both full group content and for solo content. It already actually is a single drawback line that you've split in your head so maybe add an "and":

Restore 20% of the damage you deal as Health. This value is decreased by 4% per ally you are grouped with and you cannot be healed by anyone but yourself, your pets, or your Companions.

You should not be using this ring in trial content, simple as that. That's the point of it. Solo content is where it shines. Swap out your ring for something else when you are in a trial.

TheRoamingSpirit

Inyhel wrote: »

The whole point of the limitation is to stop it from being overpowered.
As a solo player I have no problems at all. I'd rather it stay this way than for them to balance out it by nerfing the ring some other way.

I don't see this mythic as overpowered cause you only heal 20% of the damage you deal. I use the mythic to replace some of my heals on my bar for buffs or more useful skills that will benefit my playstyle. Unless you can explain to me how it's overpowered. Cause I just don't see it, Sorry.

TheDragonMeister

Inyhel wrote: »

The whole point of the limitation is to stop it from being overpowered.
As a solo player I have no problems at all. I'd rather it stay this way than for them to balance out it by nerfing the ring some other way.

If any mythic is considered overpowered then that would be Oakensoul Ring when gives a a load of buffs at the single drawback of inability to weapon swap.

Pale Order is just healing, it doesn't buff your damage.

TheRoamingSpirit

heaven13 wrote: »

20% of the damage you do as heal; let's say you do 100k dps, you're getting 20k just from your damage, plus any self heals you have. You kill things much faster because, as others pointed out, trials were swapping out healer roles for 2 additional dps instead (making healers irrelevant). There's really not a way to balance this ring to be used in both full group content and for solo content. It already actually is a single drawback line that you've split in your head so maybe add an "and":

Restore 20% of the damage you deal as Health. This value is decreased by 4% per ally you are grouped with and you cannot be healed by anyone but yourself, your pets, or your Companions.

You should not be using this ring in trial content, simple as that. That's the point of it. Solo content is where it shines. Swap out your ring for something else when you are in a trial.

I barely hit 20k damage...I'm mostly hitting like 5K to 7K dmg. Who hits 100K dmg? Isn't there a cap on DPS output?

TheDragonMeister

heaven13 wrote: »

20% of the damage you do as heal; let's say you do 100k dps, you're getting 20k just from your damage, plus any self heals you have. You kill things much faster because, as others pointed out, trials were swapping out healer roles for 2 additional dps instead (making healers irrelevant). There's really not a way to balance this ring to be used in both full group content and for solo content. It already actually is a single drawback line that you've split in your head so maybe add an "and":

Restore 20% of the damage you deal as Health. This value is decreased by 4% per ally you are grouped with and you cannot be healed by anyone but yourself, your pets, or your Companions.

You should not be using this ring in trial content, simple as that. That's the point of it. Solo content is where it shines. Swap out your ring for something else when you are in a trial.

Logically you can't hit 100k in 1 hit. The fact people claim to hit high numbers like that is irrelevant.

TheDragonMeister

Also I don't see how Pale Order would render healers ineffective if Pale order is only self-healing not group healing so healers would still be useful in trials.

Heren

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

I'm not suggesting balance firstly. I'm just saying that compared to other mythics. Pale order being self-support based and is not able to be used in all content meaning it's not following the "play your way" style the devs are going for.

People will use this "play your way" to try justify everything... it's quite sad at this point, honestly.

I like mythic items for the differents things they do, they're usefulness in different type of contents. They're like tools, a set of tools from wich you can chose the one that fit the situation. Ok there is also a certain number of misses actually from ZOS, but still, you have quite a large pool from wich to pick for the different things you do. And i very like it this way - diverse and more or less balanced.

I'm sorry for people who have troubles adapting to different contents, and i'm sorry for people who have a cool build concept that can be used everywhere, but I think it's better this way, with pale order being a balanced niche mythic - like a lot of other ones. I think it's better for everyone.

TheDragonMeister

Trials don't even have a proper setup bc dps will set any role just to run trial or dungeon. So what would the problem be to adjust pale order to allow self-healing in trials.

Self healing is highly used in PvP so having it useless in the new 8v8 bgs would pretty much throw pale order out of the game bc it's not highly used when grouped since being group nerfs the healing.

TheDragonMeister

Heren wrote: »

People will use this "play your way" to try justify everything... it's quite sad at this point, honestly.

I like mythic items for the differents things they do, they're usefulness in different type of contents. They're like tools, a set of tools from wich you can chose the one that fit the situation. Ok there is also a certain number of misses actually from ZOS, but still, you have quite a large pool from wich to pick for the different things you do. And i very like it this way - diverse and more or less balanced.

I'm sorry for people who have troubles adapting to different contents, and i'm sorry for people who have a cool build concept that can be used everywhere, but I think it's better this way, with pale order being a balanced niche mythic - like a lot of other ones. I think it's better for everyone.

Pale order right now is pretty much restricted to solo play only and rarely even used. How is this better for everyone?

Pale order is just self-healing that is currently restricted for solo players. But why? When all other mythics are designed for solo and group gameplay?

colossalvoids

A lot of sets and other tools are useless in certain scenarios, group play is way different thing plus you should consider coordinated non random groups in your equation.

"100k DPS" thingie is measuring damage output per second through the whole encounter, not per hit of individual ability like spammable. People who do group content on more less serious level are pushing this kind of stuff, that's not something new, never was. With group buffs trash mob DPS can reach ridiculous numbers way past 100k for just one player.

Including pale order on a menu for group PvP would actually make casual experience unbearable because experienced players are the ones who will utilise it to the max, not casual ones. It's also a group activity so there's a healer role for that precisely, in PvP you're not going full damage anyway and probably already are a part healer in a sense if want to stay alive for any amount of time, there's no build that fits all modes, it's impossible.

TheDragonMeister

This was only meant as a suggestion and we asked for no negative comments.

I did suggest that they could keep the healing decrease per group member but have it decease to a certain minimum % so the mythic still has some use and not completely ineffective.

TheRoamingSpirit

colossalvoids wrote: »

A lot of sets and other tools are useless in certain scenarios, group play is way different thing plus you should consider coordinated non random groups in your equation.

"100k DPS" thingie is measuring damage output per second through the whole encounter, not per hit of individual ability like spammable. People who do group content on more less serious level are pushing this kind of stuff, that's not something new, never was. With group buffs trash mob DPS can reach ridiculous numbers way past 100k for just one player.

Including pale order on a menu for group PvP would actually make casual experience unbearable because experienced players are the ones who will utilise it to the max, not casual ones. It's also a group activity so there's a healer role for that precisely, in PvP you're not going full damage anyway and probably already are a part healer in a sense if want to stay alive for any amount of time, there's no build that fits all modes, it's impossible.

Sorry if I offended you. I was just confused. I'm not good at math and numbers so I can't calculate overall DPS. I just read the dmg numbers during combat. Sorry that I want to make my character builds universal to make it easier for me to play all content in the game. I'm not claiming to be overpowered or anything. I just play ESO to have fun, I don't find it fun to change my character builds every patch like everyone else. Cause it's too overwhelming for me. But I appreciate your opinion.

To be honest, I'm not looking to build a strong character. I just simply suggested a small change but it already seems that nobody agrees but my twin, So therefore I guess ZOS will just keep it the same and I just can't run trials or BGs with my first character I made in game. Sorry for mentioning the topic, I just thought to try making a suggestion.

TheDragonMeister

No build is unkillable and no build is really overpowered. What's wrong with wanting to play all content without the stressfullness of changing gear? Not everyone wants to change gear bc I'm not looking to stress anymore about what gear is best to run. I just run what gear I want to run and works for my character's skills, class, curse, race, etc. I don't care personally about dmg numbers or if I can 1vx in pvp. I generally don't care about that but I do want to enjoy more content and with my nightblade vamp being my strongest character I wanted to try trials but pale order is a needed on the build bc I don't have many heals and I run vamp skill that negates ally heals anyway pale order fits perfectly.

We only wanted to suggest a way to make pale order useful for more content, not discussing balance or dps numbers either.

Heren

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Pale order is just self-healing that is currently restricted for solo players. But why? When all other mythics are designed for solo and group gameplay?

You're confusing give some benefit both in solo and group gameplay and "are designed for solo and group gameplay", wich is implying that they give great benefit in solo and group gameplay. I wouldn't really count Wild Hunt in these, neither Faun's lark cladding, nor the shadow's queen cowl. Spaulder of ruin don't give you no benefit in solo, and Harpooner's Wading Kilt hardly does I guess.

TheDragonMeister

Heren wrote: »

You're confusing give some benefit both in solo and group gameplay and "are designed for solo and group gameplay", wich is implying that they give great benefit in solo and group gameplay. I wouldn't really count Wild Hunt in these, neither Faun's lark cladding, nor the shadow's queen cowl. Spaulder of ruin don't give you no benefit in solo, and Harpooner's Wading Kilt hardly does I guess.

Pale order only heals self not group and doesn't scale off group dps. Why is heal decreased when grouped when it traditionally gets no benefit from group. Instead gets drawback? 6+ person groups pale order gives wearer 0% healing causing them to have to change skills or sets just to play other content.

That's the last time I'm repeating this.

colossalvoids

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

A lot of sets and other tools are useless in certain scenarios, group play is way different thing plus you should consider coordinated non random groups in your equation.

"100k DPS" thingie is measuring damage output per second through the whole encounter, not per hit of individual ability like spammable. People who do group content on more less serious level are pushing this kind of stuff, that's not something new, never was. With group buffs trash mob DPS can reach ridiculous numbers way past 100k for just one player.

Including pale order on a menu for group PvP would actually make casual experience unbearable because experienced players are the ones who will utilise it to the max, not casual ones. It's also a group activity so there's a healer role for that precisely, in PvP you're not going full damage anyway and probably already are a part healer in a sense if want to stay alive for any amount of time, there's no build that fits all modes, it's impossible.

Sorry if I offended you. I was just confused. I'm not good at math and numbers so I can't calculate overall DPS. I just read the dmg numbers during combat. Sorry that I want to make my character builds universal to make it easier for me to play all content in the game. I'm not claiming to be overpowered or anything. I just play ESO to have fun, I don't find it fun to change my character builds every patch like everyone else. Cause it's too overwhelming for me. But I appreciate your opinion.

To be honest, I'm not looking to build a strong character. I just simply suggested a small change but it already seems that nobody agrees but my twin, So therefore I guess ZOS will just keep it the same and I just can't run trials or BGs with my first character I made in game. Sorry for mentioning the topic, I just thought to try making a suggestion.

Sorry if it came that way but I tried to explain a bit how it works in a broader game's field, that's not my first language so apologies if it came in a negative way. The item in question was changed multiple times just because how broken some of its use cases were when it was introduced and it's still the best item you can have for any solo build for vast majority of players, especially ones who don't play nightblades or sorcerers having a ton of passive self healing.

The easiest fix for it is to have a second ring for group or PvP activities, like Death Dealers Fete as an example. Changing PO isn't what you really want there, as items have a "power budget", speaking broadly if some thing is changed about the item this value is getting recalculated, so when for example one of the downsides is dropped it would require a quite significant nerf to the item potentially making it useless for everyone, so for you also. That way some sets became obsolete throughout the years with direct or indirect changes.

mdjessup4906

I don't understand the build issue. Does the pale order ring's healing somehow increase your damage done, or are you just self-healing with the ring by doing lifesteal damage?

If it's the former, yeah I can understand the frustration.

If it's the latter though, (and your dps is otherwise high enough for that particular content, ) then all you need to do is to replace the ring with another set piece (one piece of gear, not dozens), and maybe slot a self heal like vigor if you want some extra insurance. Good groups always have heals provided for you. That's what the healer role is for.

heaven13

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Also I don't see how Pale Order would render healers ineffective if Pale order is only self-healing not group healing so healers would still be useful in trials.

If everyone is wearing Pale Order in a trial meaning they can only heal themselves, why would a group healer be needed?

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Logically you can't hit 100k in 1 hit. The fact people claim to hit high numbers like that is irrelevant.

As @colossalvoids points out, 100k dps is measured over the length of the encounter. It might be worth looking up some videos of trial dummies, to get an example (not saying you should/have to use one of the builds, but seeing it "in action" might give some insight into how it works). It's not just a "claim", but an actual reality of end-game top level skill. Of course, trial dummies are different than actual group content where movement, coordination, mechanics, etc come into play but 100k dps is not a wild stretch. I think there are (likely) videos you can watch of trial fights, or you can go to esologs to see this information from real content.

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

We only wanted to suggest a way to make pale order useful for more content, not discussing balance or dps numbers either.

I get it. And I get not wanting to change gear, especially when you're earlier levels without access to a lot of skills, skill points, set items to reconstruct, etc. But requests like this have to be looked at with the lens of how they will affect the game overall. The devs should/need to take into account the different use cases and not just one subset of players.

This is something that comes up every time a new set is added that is "supposed" to help counter ball groups in PvP but end up being used BY the ball groups to even great effectiveness than their original intention. Without considering all the potential uses and trying to balance, you end up breaking the game.

Balance is integral to supporting this game and you can't discuss making something more useful or buffing/nerfing something without considering how it's balanced.

Nharimlur_Finor

Why can't it just drop from Dragonthorn plants? At the same rate as Aetherial dust.