I'll meet you in the middle Max. When crystal frag procs it becomes instant cast AND does more damage, right? So indeed give Dark Flare the crystal frag treatment. But remove the major defile from the base ability and add it to the procced instant cast version.
I think that would be pretty awesome and alleviate my concerns. I know Templar needs some love and I do want it to get some... I just don't really want to be defiled 100% of the time. The way it works now you can see it being cast and roll dodge it, which I think is fair, since major defile is kinda a big debuff.
I'll meet you in the middle Max. When crystal frag procs it becomes instant cast AND does more damage, right? So indeed give Dark Flare the crystal frag treatment. But remove the major defile from the base ability and add it to the procced instant cast version.
I think that would be pretty awesome and alleviate my concerns. I know Templar needs some love and I do want it to get some... I just don't really want to be defiled 100% of the time. The way it works now you can see it being cast and roll dodge it, which I think is fair, since major defile is kinda a big debuff.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »I'll meet you in the middle Max. When crystal frag procs it becomes instant cast AND does more damage, right? So indeed give Dark Flare the crystal frag treatment. But remove the major defile from the base ability and add it to the procced instant cast version.
I think that would be pretty awesome and alleviate my concerns. I know Templar needs some love and I do want it to get some... I just don't really want to be defiled 100% of the time. The way it works now you can see it being cast and roll dodge it, which I think is fair, since major defile is kinda a big debuff.
It would be nice as an instant cast, might see some use. Your request for it being easy to dodge is fair. We can have both. Just make it instant cast with a slow and obvious telegraph, like cliff racer or flame skull. The projectile path on Dark Flare may already be sufficient.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »I'll meet you in the middle Max. When crystal frag procs it becomes instant cast AND does more damage, right? So indeed give Dark Flare the crystal frag treatment. But remove the major defile from the base ability and add it to the procced instant cast version.
I think that would be pretty awesome and alleviate my concerns. I know Templar needs some love and I do want it to get some... I just don't really want to be defiled 100% of the time. The way it works now you can see it being cast and roll dodge it, which I think is fair, since major defile is kinda a big debuff.
It would be nice as an instant cast, might see some use. Your request for it being easy to dodge is fair. We can have both. Just make it instant cast with a slow and obvious telegraph, like cliff racer or flame skull. The projectile path on Dark Flare may already be sufficient.
So DF has Defile, making it clearly a PvP oriented skill, and yet sees (nearly) zero use. Cliff Racer and Flame Skull also see (nearly) zero use in PvP.
So what do these skills have in common? It's the huge travel time that makes it a piece of cake to avoid. In the case of Dark Flare it has a cast time as well, giving it the double whammy of avoidable and nigh useless skill in a PvP environment.
I think this is one of those situations where ZoS could try something simple like removing the cast time on the skill, and wait for a patch cycle to see what happens. I doubt the skill would be some over-performing monster with the cast time removed. But it might actually get some use in PvP and maybe even in PvE even through the Defile is worthless there.
The Defiles used to be 30%/15% but got nerfed down to 16%/8%. I don't feel the 16% Defile is reason enough for a cast time. But I would absolutely take a shift to Minor Defile if it meant eliminating the cast time entirely.
I think major defile is being underestimated by some people. -16% healing might seem like not much but it's basically the inverse of major berserk. And I'm aware that major vulnerability is a better comparison, but still. Healing yourself for less is a lot like taking more damage.
I think major defile is being underestimated by some people. -16% healing might seem like not much but it's basically the inverse of major berserk. And I'm aware that major vulnerability is a better comparison, but still. Healing yourself for less is a lot like taking more damage.
I think major defile is being underestimated by some people. -16% healing might seem like not much but it's basically the inverse of major berserk. And I'm aware that major vulnerability is a better comparison, but still. Healing yourself for less is a lot like taking more damage.
Not underestimating it at all. It really isn't that strong with the amount of healing currently in game. I'd be very willing to give up the major defile for something that hits harder. But the fact remains that as long as it has a cast time (which has an incredibly long animation), no one will use it. The speed with which it hits has been made faster over the years, but as it is now, it is still long enough that it can easily be avoided.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »I think major defile is being underestimated by some people. -16% healing might seem like not much but it's basically the inverse of major berserk. And I'm aware that major vulnerability is a better comparison, but still. Healing yourself for less is a lot like taking more damage.
Major Defile (16% reduced healing taken) is the direct counter to Major Vitality (16% increased healing taken). However Major Vitality is not an easy buff to obtain, often requiring certain sets (Bani's, Malubeth, or Blackrose Resto). I'm not opposed to Dark Flare becoming Minor Defile (8%) since it is on a spammable, assuming the skill receives some other buff to make it viable.
As an interesting side note, there is another named buff for healing. Major/Minor Mending increases healing done by 8/16%. There is no equivalent named debuff to counter this one, so Defile effectively has to fill this role as well as countering Vitality. Major Mending is more common than Major Vitality, with Warden getting it as a passive and DK for casting Igneous Shield. This is one factor in the "unkillable" DK and Warden tank builds, and Major Defile can be very helpful to strip away their extra self-healing.
I have to disagree with OB. If Dark Flare was its own unique defile. Or if Major defile was buffed from 16%, then it might be worth slotting. But you won’t see any Templar using it in pvp. Dark Flare needs a crystal frag rework. It should have a chance to proc for an instant cast. If so, it would be used.
MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »I have to disagree with OB. If Dark Flare was its own unique defile. Or if Major defile was buffed from 16%, then it might be worth slotting. But you won’t see any Templar using it in pvp. Dark Flare needs a crystal frag rework. It should have a chance to proc for an instant cast. If so, it would be used.
I use it in PVP and it is quite effective at killing targets.
Dark Flare > Comet > Javelin > Radiant Glory = death...mainly because Dark Flare debuff is why this works. But this type of play style is horrible given that you are waiting until the ultimate is up to actually do damage and get a kill.
MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »I have to disagree with OB. If Dark Flare was its own unique defile. Or if Major defile was buffed from 16%, then it might be worth slotting. But you won’t see any Templar using it in pvp. Dark Flare needs a crystal frag rework. It should have a chance to proc for an instant cast. If so, it would be used.
I use it in PVP and it is quite effective at killing targets.
Dark Flare > Comet > Javelin > Radiant Glory = death...mainly because Dark Flare debuff is why this works. But this type of play style is horrible given that you are waiting until the ultimate is up to actually do damage and get a kill.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »I have to disagree with OB. If Dark Flare was its own unique defile. Or if Major defile was buffed from 16%, then it might be worth slotting. But you won’t see any Templar using it in pvp. Dark Flare needs a crystal frag rework. It should have a chance to proc for an instant cast. If so, it would be used.
I use it in PVP and it is quite effective at killing targets.
Dark Flare > Comet > Javelin > Radiant Glory = death...mainly because Dark Flare debuff is why this works. But this type of play style is horrible given that you are waiting until the ultimate is up to actually do damage and get a kill.
Can't someone just dodge the flare and/or block the comet? Also, doesn't the stun from the comet grant cc immunity, making the javelin kind of useless?
Billium813 wrote: »I think the issues are really simple:
- Defile as a debuff is pointless in the current PvP, as well as being completely useless in PvE
- HoT is too strong atm in PvP (not just stacking, but also in duration and strength)
When you look at this
and think that -16%, or -8%, for 4 seconds, means anything, you're living in a dream world. Yes, this is an extreme example and Defile isn't a ball group counter necessarily... but my point stands that HoT is too accessible and too strong atm.
Players can have many self-applied HoT running, each providing 1200 health per second, reducing that to 1000 health per second for a 4 second window doesn't do enough. The HoT durations and quality are still eclipsing the damage by a large margin. The system favors defense when you can pop 1 Resolving Vigor and get a strong HoT for 20 whole seconds, the 4 second -16% becomes a "why bother?".
Defile used to be really strong debuff; you could reach > -45% to healing (30% + 15% befoul)! That meant that skills that applied it needed to be reigned back to account for that power potential. Then they neutered Defile (30% -> 16%) and removed Befoul champion point. The skills were not rebalanced though and now Defile is a shell of its former self. You, as a player, have to go out of your way to apply Defile because the skills it's stapled to are just not that good on their own.
I'm not saying that the old system was better. Defile WAS too strong. But it's been completely gutted over the years when it just needed a minor nerf OR just remove Befoul. But they did both instead...
Major Defile should be 30% again OR healing reduction should be boosted through Battle Spirit. Given that Defile is already basically exclusively a PvP debuff, I would be in favor more of the former. HOWEVER, the devs have it stuck in their minds that Defile and Vitality MUST be kept in sync. I think that makes no sense given Defile is PvP and Vitality is BOTH PvP and PvE... but I seriously doubt ZOS would make Major Defile 30% again and yet keep Major Vitality at 16%.
0.01% of templars acually use Dark Flare (before 6.3.5 it was around 0.05% of population)
Noone is going to do anything about that.
It is not a PvP skill becase of cast time.
It is not a viable PvE spamable becase of cast time (and damage)
It's just a morph for show
And the only it gets every year is about "±Xs to Major Delfie duration, ±0.Ys cast time for fetch standards"
It's really sad
Just take a look at patch notes about this ability for entire 9 years!1.2.3
Slightly reduced the cast time for this ability from 1.5 seconds to 1.3 seconds.
Dark Flare: This ability now scales in damage from ranks I-IV.
1.5.2
Dark Flare: Fixed an issue where this ability's graphical effect would stay on a target after it was removed.
1.6.5
Solar Flare no longer increases the damage of the next attack against the target. Instead, this ability now grants the caster the Major Empower buff.
Reduced the cast time of this ability by 0.2 seconds.
Dark Flare: This ability now applies the Major Defile debuff to your target.
2.3.5
Increased the damage for this ability and the Dark Flare morph by 12%. The damage of the Solar Barrage morph remains unchanged.
2.6.4
Fixed an issue where this ability would cause the visual effects from Major Empower to get stuck on you if it was used as the killing blow on a target.
4.0.5
This ability and the Dark Flare morph now grant the Empower buff instantly after being cast, instead of when the projectile hits the enemy target.
4.1.5
Dark Flare: Decreased the duration of the Major Defile debuff to 4 seconds from 6 seconds.
5.0.5
Reduced the cast time from this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 1 second from 1.1 seconds.
Increased the travel speed to match other projectiles.
Reduced the damage by approximately 37% to make up for the fact that it can be cast more frequently.
Reduced base cost from to 2970 Magicka from 3240.
5.1.5
Increased the damage of this ability and the Dark Flare morph by approximately 4%.
6.3.5
Reduced the cast time of this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the cost of all versions of this ability to 2700, down from 2970.
Just take a look at patch notes about this ability for entire 9 years!1.2.3
Slightly reduced the cast time for this ability from 1.5 seconds to 1.3 seconds.
Dark Flare: This ability now scales in damage from ranks I-IV.
1.5.2
Dark Flare: Fixed an issue where this ability's graphical effect would stay on a target after it was removed.
1.6.5
Solar Flare no longer increases the damage of the next attack against the target. Instead, this ability now grants the caster the Major Empower buff.
Reduced the cast time of this ability by 0.2 seconds.
Dark Flare: This ability now applies the Major Defile debuff to your target.
2.3.5
Increased the damage for this ability and the Dark Flare morph by 12%. The damage of the Solar Barrage morph remains unchanged.
2.6.4
Fixed an issue where this ability would cause the visual effects from Major Empower to get stuck on you if it was used as the killing blow on a target.
4.0.5
This ability and the Dark Flare morph now grant the Empower buff instantly after being cast, instead of when the projectile hits the enemy target.
4.1.5
Dark Flare: Decreased the duration of the Major Defile debuff to 4 seconds from 6 seconds.
5.0.5
Reduced the cast time from this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 1 second from 1.1 seconds.
Increased the travel speed to match other projectiles.
Reduced the damage by approximately 37% to make up for the fact that it can be cast more frequently.
Reduced base cost from to 2970 Magicka from 3240.
5.1.5
Increased the damage of this ability and the Dark Flare morph by approximately 4%.
6.3.5
Reduced the cast time of this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the cost of all versions of this ability to 2700, down from 2970.
In what world does a 0.1 and 0.2 second reduced cast time need to be offset by 37% and 21% damage reductions?! "to make up for the fact that it can be cast more frequently"? More frequently?! How much more can it be cast now that the time is reduced by 0.1 second? It's an almost imperceptible change, paired with a 37% damage nerf... boggles my mind tbh.5.0.5
Reduced the cast time from this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 1 second from 1.1 seconds.
Increased the travel speed to match other projectiles.
Reduced the damage by approximately 37% to make up for the fact that it can be cast more frequently.
Reduced base cost from to 2970 Magicka from 3240.
6.3.5
Reduced the cast time of this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the cost of all versions of this ability to 2700, down from 2970.
Lol smh5.1.5
Increased the damage of this ability and the Dark Flare morph by approximately 4%.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »0.01% of templars acually use Dark Flare (before 6.3.5 it was around 0.05% of population)
Noone is going to do anything about that.
It is not a PvP skill becase of cast time.
It is not a viable PvE spamable becase of cast time (and damage)
It's just a morph for show
And the only it gets every year is about "±Xs to Major Delfie duration, ±0.Ys cast time for fetch standards"
It's really sad
Yeah, I'd say in PVE the lack of damage and useless buffs is more of an issue than the cast time. Dark Flare and Wrecking Blow have the same cast time and both give Empower.
Billium813 wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »0.01% of templars acually use Dark Flare (before 6.3.5 it was around 0.05% of population)
Noone is going to do anything about that.
It is not a PvP skill becase of cast time.
It is not a viable PvE spamable becase of cast time (and damage)
It's just a morph for show
And the only it gets every year is about "±Xs to Major Delfie duration, ±0.Ys cast time for fetch standards"
It's really sad
Yeah, I'd say in PVE the lack of damage and useless buffs is more of an issue than the cast time. Dark Flare and Wrecking Blow have the same cast time and both give Empower.
Personally, I like how one morph can be more for PvP (Dark Flare) and one is more for PvE (Solar Barrage). You can certainly use either in whatever content you want, but I like when there are pretty clear indications on where morphs are targeted for. It really helps for balancing too. I wouldn't mind them dropping Empower from Dark Flare all together given that Empower is only for monsters now and extending the Major Defile duration to 10 seconds