Why does Dark Flare have a cast time?

JMadFour

I've never understood that.

Is it a PVP thing?

Is 4 seconds of Major Defile really that powerful to warrant this?

The cast time is what is keeping Dark Flare from being a suitable ranged spammable, isn't it?

ZOS_Kraken

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

OBJnoob

Hate to say it but yes I think 4 seconds of major defile warrants it having a cast time. If you're going to use it as a spammable then it could be 2 seconds or 100 seconds it's going to have permanent uptime in most situations. A spammable shouldn't do major defile at all to be honest.

maxjapank

I have to disagree with OB. If Dark Flare was its own unique defile. Or if Major defile was buffed from 16%, then it might be worth slotting. But you won’t see any Templar using it in pvp. Dark Flare needs a crystal frag rework. It should have a chance to proc for an instant cast. If so, it would be used.

OBJnoob

I'll meet you in the middle Max. When crystal frag procs it becomes instant cast AND does more damage, right? So indeed give Dark Flare the crystal frag treatment. But remove the major defile from the base ability and add it to the procced instant cast version.

I think that would be pretty awesome and alleviate my concerns. I know Templar needs some love and I do want it to get some... I just don't really want to be defiled 100% of the time. The way it works now you can see it being cast and roll dodge it, which I think is fair, since major defile is kinda a big debuff.

WrathOfInnos

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'll meet you in the middle Max. When crystal frag procs it becomes instant cast AND does more damage, right? So indeed give Dark Flare the crystal frag treatment. But remove the major defile from the base ability and add it to the procced instant cast version.

I think that would be pretty awesome and alleviate my concerns. I know Templar needs some love and I do want it to get some... I just don't really want to be defiled 100% of the time. The way it works now you can see it being cast and roll dodge it, which I think is fair, since major defile is kinda a big debuff.

It would be nice as an instant cast, might see some use. Your request for it being easy to dodge is fair. We can have both. Just make it instant cast with a slow and obvious telegraph, like cliff racer or flame skull. The projectile path on Dark Flare may already be sufficient.

danno8

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'll meet you in the middle Max. When crystal frag procs it becomes instant cast AND does more damage, right? So indeed give Dark Flare the crystal frag treatment. But remove the major defile from the base ability and add it to the procced instant cast version.

I think that would be pretty awesome and alleviate my concerns. I know Templar needs some love and I do want it to get some... I just don't really want to be defiled 100% of the time. The way it works now you can see it being cast and roll dodge it, which I think is fair, since major defile is kinda a big debuff.

Given the rather large arc of travel+travel time, I think DF would be pretty easy to dodge even without a cast time.

It's been a while since I used DF. Does it still pin you in place during cast too? That's yet another strike against it. I can still hardly believe they nerfed the damage a year or two ago at the same time they nerfed Snipe.

OBJnoob

Yes but it's kinda also a problem if I'm compelled to dodge every spammable because it brings major defile.

-shrug- looks like we can't compromise. I'm firmly against the suggestion then.

mmtaniac

Because it's templar if this was nb dark flare would have tons of damage, debuff ,instant cast, and grant you heal. But as a templar Dark flare have cast time and it's useless.

Caribou77

I think dark flare is in the same spot as wardens’ cliff racer: too slow and easily dodged to be an effective pvp spammable, or even a viable skill really.

Over the years, they’ve tried everything with cliff racer to entice players to use it in pvp, EXCEPT making it faster or less dodgeable.

I’d be really surprised if they did anything to speed up dark flare, or any ranged magicka projectile for that matter.

danno8

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'll meet you in the middle Max. When crystal frag procs it becomes instant cast AND does more damage, right? So indeed give Dark Flare the crystal frag treatment. But remove the major defile from the base ability and add it to the procced instant cast version.

I think that would be pretty awesome and alleviate my concerns. I know Templar needs some love and I do want it to get some... I just don't really want to be defiled 100% of the time. The way it works now you can see it being cast and roll dodge it, which I think is fair, since major defile is kinda a big debuff.

It would be nice as an instant cast, might see some use. Your request for it being easy to dodge is fair. We can have both. Just make it instant cast with a slow and obvious telegraph, like cliff racer or flame skull. The projectile path on Dark Flare may already be sufficient.

So DF has Defile, making it clearly a PvP oriented skill, and yet sees (nearly) zero use. Cliff Racer and Flame Skull also see (nearly) zero use in PvP.

So what do these skills have in common? It's the huge travel time that makes it a piece of cake to avoid. In the case of Dark Flare it has a cast time as well, giving it the double whammy of avoidable and nigh useless skill in a PvP environment.

I think this is one of those situations where ZoS could try something simple like removing the cast time on the skill, and wait for a patch cycle to see what happens. I doubt the skill would be some over-performing monster with the cast time removed. But it might actually get some use in PvP and maybe even in PvE even through the Defile is worthless there.

The Defiles used to be 30%/15% but got nerfed down to 16%/8%. I don't feel the 16% Defile is reason enough for a cast time. But I would absolutely take a shift to Minor Defile if it meant eliminating the cast time entirely.

Necrotech_Master

ive always seen dark flare as kind of like a magicka version of lethal arrow, except i think it has less range than snipe, but it applies a stronger debuff

WrathOfInnos

danno8 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'll meet you in the middle Max. When crystal frag procs it becomes instant cast AND does more damage, right? So indeed give Dark Flare the crystal frag treatment. But remove the major defile from the base ability and add it to the procced instant cast version.

I think that would be pretty awesome and alleviate my concerns. I know Templar needs some love and I do want it to get some... I just don't really want to be defiled 100% of the time. The way it works now you can see it being cast and roll dodge it, which I think is fair, since major defile is kinda a big debuff.

It would be nice as an instant cast, might see some use. Your request for it being easy to dodge is fair. We can have both. Just make it instant cast with a slow and obvious telegraph, like cliff racer or flame skull. The projectile path on Dark Flare may already be sufficient.

So DF has Defile, making it clearly a PvP oriented skill, and yet sees (nearly) zero use. Cliff Racer and Flame Skull also see (nearly) zero use in PvP.

So what do these skills have in common? It's the huge travel time that makes it a piece of cake to avoid. In the case of Dark Flare it has a cast time as well, giving it the double whammy of avoidable and nigh useless skill in a PvP environment.

I think this is one of those situations where ZoS could try something simple like removing the cast time on the skill, and wait for a patch cycle to see what happens. I doubt the skill would be some over-performing monster with the cast time removed. But it might actually get some use in PvP and maybe even in PvE even through the Defile is worthless there.

The Defiles used to be 30%/15% but got nerfed down to 16%/8%. I don't feel the 16% Defile is reason enough for a cast time. But I would absolutely take a shift to Minor Defile if it meant eliminating the cast time entirely.

Mostly agree, and even at close range it shoots high into the sky before falling back down to the enemy, giving plenty of time to dodge. This is similar to Cliff Racer and worse than Skull for the user. Sure it can be spammed until the enemy stops rolling, but that is already the case with its 0.8s cast time. Unless players are planning to interrupt every cast it's not going to have much impact. Removing this cast time would just make it feel better to use, allowing more fluid block/dodge/bar swap and avoiding the self snare.

The only point I want to correct is about it being a PvP skill due to the defile debuff. Dark Flare also gives the empower buff, which is PvE only. I wouldn't say this buff is particularly useful, but it does mean flare is intended to be used in both types of play. Currently it is used in neither.

OBJnoob

I think major defile is being underestimated by some people. -16% healing might seem like not much but it's basically the inverse of major berserk. And I'm aware that major vulnerability is a better comparison, but still. Healing yourself for less is a lot like taking more damage.

maxjapank

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think major defile is being underestimated by some people. -16% healing might seem like not much but it's basically the inverse of major berserk. And I'm aware that major vulnerability is a better comparison, but still. Healing yourself for less is a lot like taking more damage.

Not underestimating it at all. It really isn't that strong with the amount of healing currently in game. I'd be very willing to give up the major defile for something that hits harder. But the fact remains that as long as it has a cast time (which has an incredibly long animation), no one will use it. The speed with which it hits has been made faster over the years, but as it is now, it is still long enough that it can easily be avoided.

WrathOfInnos

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think major defile is being underestimated by some people. -16% healing might seem like not much but it's basically the inverse of major berserk. And I'm aware that major vulnerability is a better comparison, but still. Healing yourself for less is a lot like taking more damage.

Major Defile (16% reduced healing taken) is the direct counter to Major Vitality (16% increased healing taken). However Major Vitality is not an easy buff to obtain, often requiring certain sets (Bani's, Malubeth, or Blackrose Resto). I'm not opposed to Dark Flare becoming Minor Defile (8%) since it is on a spammable, assuming the skill receives some other buff to make it viable.

As an interesting side note, there is another named buff for healing. Major/Minor Mending increases healing done by 8/16%. There is no equivalent named debuff to counter this one, so Defile effectively has to fill this role as well as countering Vitality. Major Mending is more common than Major Vitality, with Warden getting it as a passive and DK for casting Igneous Shield. This is one factor in the "unkillable" DK and Warden tank builds, and Major Defile can be very helpful to strip away their extra self-healing.

OBJnoob

maxjapank wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think major defile is being underestimated by some people. -16% healing might seem like not much but it's basically the inverse of major berserk. And I'm aware that major vulnerability is a better comparison, but still. Healing yourself for less is a lot like taking more damage.

Not underestimating it at all. It really isn't that strong with the amount of healing currently in game. I'd be very willing to give up the major defile for something that hits harder. But the fact remains that as long as it has a cast time (which has an incredibly long animation), no one will use it. The speed with which it hits has been made faster over the years, but as it is now, it is still long enough that it can easily be avoided.

Actually the more healing there is then the stronger defile effectively becomes. I understand that Templars are in need of a higher damage spammable I just don't think having major defile on it is a good idea. Imagine the weird gank-like builds from a bowplar having snipe and Dark Flare hitting you at the same time from range, stacking both defiles, and then immediately beaming.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I think major defile is being underestimated by some people. -16% healing might seem like not much but it's basically the inverse of major berserk. And I'm aware that major vulnerability is a better comparison, but still. Healing yourself for less is a lot like taking more damage.

Major Defile (16% reduced healing taken) is the direct counter to Major Vitality (16% increased healing taken). However Major Vitality is not an easy buff to obtain, often requiring certain sets (Bani's, Malubeth, or Blackrose Resto). I'm not opposed to Dark Flare becoming Minor Defile (8%) since it is on a spammable, assuming the skill receives some other buff to make it viable.

As an interesting side note, there is another named buff for healing. Major/Minor Mending increases healing done by 8/16%. There is no equivalent named debuff to counter this one, so Defile effectively has to fill this role as well as countering Vitality. Major Mending is more common than Major Vitality, with Warden getting it as a passive and DK for casting Igneous Shield. This is one factor in the "unkillable" DK and Warden tank builds, and Major Defile can be very helpful to strip away their extra self-healing.

Yes your comparisons between named buffs was more accurate than mine but even mine demonstrates the relative strength pretty accurately. Healing yourself for less DOES effectively equal taking more damage.

I support making defile stronger as an answer to the tank meta. And I support making it more available. I just don't support any one class having it on an instant cast spammable so that anything they touch just permanently has that debuff.

MEBengalsFan2001

maxjapank wrote: »

I have to disagree with OB. If Dark Flare was its own unique defile. Or if Major defile was buffed from 16%, then it might be worth slotting. But you won’t see any Templar using it in pvp. Dark Flare needs a crystal frag rework. It should have a chance to proc for an instant cast. If so, it would be used.

I use it in PVP and it is quite effective at killing targets.

Dark Flare > Comet > Javelin > Radiant Glory = death...mainly because Dark Flare debuff is why this works. But this type of play style is horrible given that you are waiting until the ultimate is up to actually do damage and get a kill.

the1andonlyskwex

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I have to disagree with OB. If Dark Flare was its own unique defile. Or if Major defile was buffed from 16%, then it might be worth slotting. But you won’t see any Templar using it in pvp. Dark Flare needs a crystal frag rework. It should have a chance to proc for an instant cast. If so, it would be used.

I use it in PVP and it is quite effective at killing targets.

Dark Flare > Comet > Javelin > Radiant Glory = death...mainly because Dark Flare debuff is why this works. But this type of play style is horrible given that you are waiting until the ultimate is up to actually do damage and get a kill.

Can't someone just dodge the flare and/or block the comet? Also, doesn't the stun from the comet grant cc immunity, making the javelin kind of useless?

maxjapank

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I have to disagree with OB. If Dark Flare was its own unique defile. Or if Major defile was buffed from 16%, then it might be worth slotting. But you won’t see any Templar using it in pvp. Dark Flare needs a crystal frag rework. It should have a chance to proc for an instant cast. If so, it would be used.

I use it in PVP and it is quite effective at killing targets.

Dark Flare > Comet > Javelin > Radiant Glory = death...mainly because Dark Flare debuff is why this works. But this type of play style is horrible given that you are waiting until the ultimate is up to actually do damage and get a kill.

I think you’re overestimating the value of Dark Flare in this scenario. You would probably get better results using Elemental Susceptibility or peppering the enemy with a couple of crushing shocks before hitting your comet combo. In fact, theses days, if you build right, you could use crushing weapon.

maxjapank

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I have to disagree with OB. If Dark Flare was its own unique defile. Or if Major defile was buffed from 16%, then it might be worth slotting. But you won’t see any Templar using it in pvp. Dark Flare needs a crystal frag rework. It should have a chance to proc for an instant cast. If so, it would be used.

I use it in PVP and it is quite effective at killing targets.

Dark Flare > Comet > Javelin > Radiant Glory = death...mainly because Dark Flare debuff is why this works. But this type of play style is horrible given that you are waiting until the ultimate is up to actually do damage and get a kill.

Can't someone just dodge the flare and/or block the comet? Also, doesn't the stun from the comet grant cc immunity, making the javelin kind of useless?

Dark Flare can be easily dodged from the start of its animation to when it’s supposed to hit. It’s very easy to los or dodge. But the reason for javelin is because it stuns or knock backs through block. Most players will try to block comet. So if you time your javelin right, you cause them to take full dmg from comet.

As a note…the only reason to that Dark Flare might be considered somewhat decent is because it’s an 8 meter aoe defile. It used to be that players around the target would still be defiled, even if the target dodged the flare. But alas, it’s so rarely used now, who knows how it works.

lQrukl

Just take a look at patch notes about this ability for entire 9 years!

1.2.3
Slightly reduced the cast time for this ability from 1.5 seconds to 1.3 seconds.
Dark Flare: This ability now scales in damage from ranks I-IV.
1.5.2
Dark Flare: Fixed an issue where this ability's graphical effect would stay on a target after it was removed.
1.6.5
Solar Flare no longer increases the damage of the next attack against the target. Instead, this ability now grants the caster the Major Empower buff.
Reduced the cast time of this ability by 0.2 seconds.
Dark Flare: This ability now applies the Major Defile debuff to your target.
2.3.5
Increased the damage for this ability and the Dark Flare morph by 12%. The damage of the Solar Barrage morph remains unchanged.
2.6.4
Fixed an issue where this ability would cause the visual effects from Major Empower to get stuck on you if it was used as the killing blow on a target.
4.0.5
This ability and the Dark Flare morph now grant the Empower buff instantly after being cast, instead of when the projectile hits the enemy target.
4.1.5
Dark Flare: Decreased the duration of the Major Defile debuff to 4 seconds from 6 seconds.
5.0.5
Reduced the cast time from this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 1 second from 1.1 seconds.
Increased the travel speed to match other projectiles.
Reduced the damage by approximately 37% to make up for the fact that it can be cast more frequently.
Reduced base cost from to 2970 Magicka from 3240.
5.1.5
Increased the damage of this ability and the Dark Flare morph by approximately 4%.
6.3.5
Reduced the cast time of this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the cost of all versions of this ability to 2700, down from 2970.

lQrukl

0.01% of templars acually use Dark Flare (before 6.3.5 it was around 0.05% of population)
Noone is going to do anything about that.
It is not a PvP skill becase of cast time.
It is not a viable PvE spamable becase of cast time (and damage)
It's just a morph for show

And the only it gets every year is about "±Xs to Major Delfie duration, ±0.Ys cast time for fetch standards"
It's really sad

Billium813

I think the issues are really simple:

1. Defile as a debuff is pointless in the current PvP, as well as being completely useless in PvE
2. HoT is too strong atm in PvP (not just stacking, but also in duration and strength)

When you look at this

and think that -16%, or -8%, for 4 seconds, means anything, you're living in a dream world. Yes, this is an extreme example and Defile isn't a ball group counter necessarily... but my point stands that HoT is too accessible and too strong atm.

Players can have many self-applied HoT running, each providing 1200 health per second, reducing that to 1000 health per second for a 4 second window doesn't do enough. The HoT durations and quality are still eclipsing the damage by a large margin. The system favors defense when you can pop 1 Resolving Vigor and get a strong HoT for 20 whole seconds, the 4 second -16% becomes a "why bother?".

Defile used to be really strong debuff; you could reach > -45% to healing (30% + 15% befoul)! That meant that skills that applied it needed to be reigned back to account for that power potential. Then they neutered Defile (30% -> 16%) and removed Befoul champion point. The skills were not rebalanced though and now Defile is a shell of its former self. You, as a player, have to go out of your way to apply Defile because the skills it's stapled to are just not that good on their own.

I'm not saying that the old system was better. Defile WAS too strong. But it's been completely gutted over the years when it just needed a minor nerf OR just remove Befoul. But they did both instead...

Major Defile should be 30% again OR healing reduction should be boosted through Battle Spirit. Given that Defile is already basically exclusively a PvP debuff, I would be in favor more of the former. HOWEVER, the devs have it stuck in their minds that Defile and Vitality MUST be kept in sync. I think that makes no sense given Defile is PvP and Vitality is BOTH PvP and PvE... but I seriously doubt ZOS would make Major Defile 30% again and yet keep Major Vitality at 16%.

Necrotech_Master

Billium813 wrote: »

I think the issues are really simple:

1. Defile as a debuff is pointless in the current PvP, as well as being completely useless in PvE
2. HoT is too strong atm in PvP (not just stacking, but also in duration and strength)

When you look at this

and think that -16%, or -8%, for 4 seconds, means anything, you're living in a dream world. Yes, this is an extreme example and Defile isn't a ball group counter necessarily... but my point stands that HoT is too accessible and too strong atm.

Players can have many self-applied HoT running, each providing 1200 health per second, reducing that to 1000 health per second for a 4 second window doesn't do enough. The HoT durations and quality are still eclipsing the damage by a large margin. The system favors defense when you can pop 1 Resolving Vigor and get a strong HoT for 20 whole seconds, the 4 second -16% becomes a "why bother?".

Defile used to be really strong debuff; you could reach > -45% to healing (30% + 15% befoul)! That meant that skills that applied it needed to be reigned back to account for that power potential. Then they neutered Defile (30% -> 16%) and removed Befoul champion point. The skills were not rebalanced though and now Defile is a shell of its former self. You, as a player, have to go out of your way to apply Defile because the skills it's stapled to are just not that good on their own.

I'm not saying that the old system was better. Defile WAS too strong. But it's been completely gutted over the years when it just needed a minor nerf OR just remove Befoul. But they did both instead...

Major Defile should be 30% again OR healing reduction should be boosted through Battle Spirit. Given that Defile is already basically exclusively a PvP debuff, I would be in favor more of the former. HOWEVER, the devs have it stuck in their minds that Defile and Vitality MUST be kept in sync. I think that makes no sense given Defile is PvP and Vitality is BOTH PvP and PvE... but I seriously doubt ZOS would make Major Defile 30% again and yet keep Major Vitality at 16%.

resolving vigor only lasts 5 seconds but has much stronger heal ticks

echoing vigor is the aoe one that lasts 15 seconds but is the one people are stacking

a lot of the part thats also been nerfed with defile is "unique" defiles (such as old fasallas guile, which with befoul cp was like -50% healing and stacked with other defiles)

it used to be possible to get to -90%ish healing on someone if they got both major defile and fasalla unique debuff

on the topic of defile, i dont think its pointless, but its definitely far too weak right now to feel impactful, cause i feel it got a double nerf (the change in major/minor values + the removal of the cp that buffed defiles) and ideally, major defile i think should sit right around 25% in order to be a bit more impactful

the only other option i could see from buffing defile is bring back the befoul CP and not only make it buff defiles, but also healing absorption (most of those healing absorb procs are so low that they dont absorb that much), just make it a slottable and not a passive

WrathOfInnos

lQrukl wrote: »

0.01% of templars acually use Dark Flare (before 6.3.5 it was around 0.05% of population)
Noone is going to do anything about that.
It is not a PvP skill becase of cast time.
It is not a viable PvE spamable becase of cast time (and damage)
It's just a morph for show

And the only it gets every year is about "±Xs to Major Delfie duration, ±0.Ys cast time for fetch standards"
It's really sad

Yeah, I'd say in PVE the lack of damage and useless buffs is more of an issue than the cast time. Dark Flare and Wrecking Blow have the same cast time and both give Empower. However Dark Flare deals 90% of WB's damage (maybe because it is ranged, but I disagree with this reasoning). Wrecking Blow also gives Major Berserk for 5s, which is far more useful than Major Defile in PVE.

The cast time is an annoyance, but doesn't technically slow it down any more than an instant cast skill. It's just harder to weave, harder to bar swap, slower mobility, makes synergies and potions clunky, etc.

maxjapank

lQrukl wrote: »

Just take a look at patch notes about this ability for entire 9 years!

1.2.3
Slightly reduced the cast time for this ability from 1.5 seconds to 1.3 seconds.
Dark Flare: This ability now scales in damage from ranks I-IV.
1.5.2
Dark Flare: Fixed an issue where this ability's graphical effect would stay on a target after it was removed.
1.6.5
Solar Flare no longer increases the damage of the next attack against the target. Instead, this ability now grants the caster the Major Empower buff.
Reduced the cast time of this ability by 0.2 seconds.
Dark Flare: This ability now applies the Major Defile debuff to your target.
2.3.5
Increased the damage for this ability and the Dark Flare morph by 12%. The damage of the Solar Barrage morph remains unchanged.
2.6.4
Fixed an issue where this ability would cause the visual effects from Major Empower to get stuck on you if it was used as the killing blow on a target.
4.0.5
This ability and the Dark Flare morph now grant the Empower buff instantly after being cast, instead of when the projectile hits the enemy target.
4.1.5
Dark Flare: Decreased the duration of the Major Defile debuff to 4 seconds from 6 seconds.
5.0.5
Reduced the cast time from this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 1 second from 1.1 seconds.
Increased the travel speed to match other projectiles.
Reduced the damage by approximately 37% to make up for the fact that it can be cast more frequently.
Reduced base cost from to 2970 Magicka from 3240.
5.1.5
Increased the damage of this ability and the Dark Flare morph by approximately 4%.
6.3.5
Reduced the cast time of this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the cost of all versions of this ability to 2700, down from 2970.

And didn't the original Dark Flare boost the dmg of your next ability by 10%?

Billium813

lQrukl wrote: »

Just take a look at patch notes about this ability for entire 9 years!

1.2.3
Slightly reduced the cast time for this ability from 1.5 seconds to 1.3 seconds.
Dark Flare: This ability now scales in damage from ranks I-IV.
1.5.2
Dark Flare: Fixed an issue where this ability's graphical effect would stay on a target after it was removed.
1.6.5
Solar Flare no longer increases the damage of the next attack against the target. Instead, this ability now grants the caster the Major Empower buff.
Reduced the cast time of this ability by 0.2 seconds.
Dark Flare: This ability now applies the Major Defile debuff to your target.
2.3.5
Increased the damage for this ability and the Dark Flare morph by 12%. The damage of the Solar Barrage morph remains unchanged.
2.6.4
Fixed an issue where this ability would cause the visual effects from Major Empower to get stuck on you if it was used as the killing blow on a target.
4.0.5
This ability and the Dark Flare morph now grant the Empower buff instantly after being cast, instead of when the projectile hits the enemy target.
4.1.5
Dark Flare: Decreased the duration of the Major Defile debuff to 4 seconds from 6 seconds.
5.0.5
Reduced the cast time from this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 1 second from 1.1 seconds.
Increased the travel speed to match other projectiles.
Reduced the damage by approximately 37% to make up for the fact that it can be cast more frequently.
Reduced base cost from to 2970 Magicka from 3240.
5.1.5
Increased the damage of this ability and the Dark Flare morph by approximately 4%.
6.3.5
Reduced the cast time of this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the cost of all versions of this ability to 2700, down from 2970.

These are my favorite

5.0.5
Reduced the cast time from this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 1 second from 1.1 seconds.
Increased the travel speed to match other projectiles.
Reduced the damage by approximately 37% to make up for the fact that it can be cast more frequently.
Reduced base cost from to 2970 Magicka from 3240.

6.3.5
Reduced the cast time of this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the cost of all versions of this ability to 2700, down from 2970.

In what world does a 0.1 and 0.2 second reduced cast time need to be offset by 37% and 21% damage reductions?! "to make up for the fact that it can be cast more frequently"? More frequently?! How much more can it be cast now that the time is reduced by 0.1 second? It's an almost imperceptible change, paired with a 37% damage nerf... boggles my mind tbh.

Then, in classic ZOS fashion, they are like "hold up, ok, we messed up, let us fix it

5.1.5
Increased the damage of this ability and the Dark Flare morph by approximately 4%.

Lol smh

Billium813

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

lQrukl wrote: »

0.01% of templars acually use Dark Flare (before 6.3.5 it was around 0.05% of population)
Noone is going to do anything about that.
It is not a PvP skill becase of cast time.
It is not a viable PvE spamable becase of cast time (and damage)
It's just a morph for show

And the only it gets every year is about "±Xs to Major Delfie duration, ±0.Ys cast time for fetch standards"
It's really sad

Yeah, I'd say in PVE the lack of damage and useless buffs is more of an issue than the cast time. Dark Flare and Wrecking Blow have the same cast time and both give Empower.

Personally, I like how one morph can be more for PvP (Dark Flare) and one is more for PvE (Solar Barrage). You can certainly use either in whatever content you want, but I like when there are pretty clear indications on where morphs are targeted for. It really helps for balancing too. I wouldn't mind them dropping Empower from Dark Flare all together given that Empower is only for monsters now and extending the Major Defile duration to 10 seconds

WrathOfInnos

Billium813 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

lQrukl wrote: »

0.01% of templars acually use Dark Flare (before 6.3.5 it was around 0.05% of population)
Noone is going to do anything about that.
It is not a PvP skill becase of cast time.
It is not a viable PvE spamable becase of cast time (and damage)
It's just a morph for show

And the only it gets every year is about "±Xs to Major Delfie duration, ±0.Ys cast time for fetch standards"
It's really sad

Yeah, I'd say in PVE the lack of damage and useless buffs is more of an issue than the cast time. Dark Flare and Wrecking Blow have the same cast time and both give Empower.

Personally, I like how one morph can be more for PvP (Dark Flare) and one is more for PvE (Solar Barrage). You can certainly use either in whatever content you want, but I like when there are pretty clear indications on where morphs are targeted for. It really helps for balancing too. I wouldn't mind them dropping Empower from Dark Flare all together given that Empower is only for monsters now and extending the Major Defile duration to 10 seconds

Well that certainly makes the choices easier. I'm on the opposite side in this one. I dislike when one morph is the obvious choice in any build. I never liked when morphs were something like stam vs mag, and you just had to pick the one that fit your build, with no other viable option.

For a few examples, I currently like the balancing on the following morphs:
- Unstable Wall (more burst and DPS) vs Blockade (larger size and longer duration)
- Screaming Cliff Racer (spell damage buff) vs Cutting Dive (adds bleed DoT)
- Honor the Dead (restores magicka) vs Breath of Life (heals an additional ally)
- Mage's Wrath (more splash damage) vs Endless Fury (returns magicka)
- Radiant Oppression (max damage) vs Radiant Glory (self healing)

Whenever something becomes the obvious choice I feel like we have no choice at all. Why even have morphs at that point?

As one more example, I'll mention the old Twisting Path vs Refreshing Path. Both dealt damage a few years ago, just Refreshing also added a heal while Twisting was maybe 10-20% more damage. This was a tough choice, especially in difficult group content. When they removed the damage from Refreshing one morph was effectively deleted for every DPS build. Now healers used their assigned morph, and nobody had to think, theorize, test or optimize.

Baconlad

As someone who has used a dark flare build in pvp since just before summerset, most of you are making terrible assumptions of the skill.


It used to be used by damn near everyone as an opener before a toppling charge and sweeps spam. Back in summerset until its damage nerf my tootip value was 27k fully buffed. I saw amazing potential in the skill as a primary spammable and built a toon around it. And holy crap it worked great.

The cast time AND travel time in PvP meant I could not hold my own in a duel, but could jump on an enemy and two shot him. Hitting upwards of 25k on some very squishy targets.

The defile, while nice was always an afterthought for me, but others found the defile more useful as they relied on sweeps for damage not flare.

Nowadays, it's been cut down to me having a 14k fully buffed tooltip, the projectile is much faster than it used to be, and the cast time decrease is only noticeable on multiple casts of it, every time you light attack it takes longer to cast than if you just spammed only flare.

The defile is barely noticeable, players having such high natural healing it's a drop in the bucket. Not like it used to be, when overall healing was much lower.

Players today don't use it because it's clunky cast times are never the same, the first cast is slow, the second is fast, accidently light attack and its slow again. The cost is too high, spamming it will drain ur magic terribly fast.

Players today don't use it because a magsorc with similar stats can get a 13k hit where flare will be stuck with a 7k hit, maybe 8 if ur lucky.

My average hit in cyrodiil today with an absolutely stupid buffed flare is barely 6k.

It's just not worth it to most players.

Snipe is in the same boat, but procs enchants and gets buffed by bow passives.

Dark flare is the weakest class spammable ability in the game, please don't try and say it's good because of defile...you could remove it and no one would notice. This skill, snipe, wrecking blow and puncturing sweeps need to be reassessed. And please don't nerf frags...frags is the example of a good skill. I don't want dark flare to be like frags, but I'd love if they gave it a special damage dealing route, to make it viable compared to other spammables. Maybe make it a channeled ability that drops multiple weaker flares. Cast once, while channeling you get three or four over 1-2 seconds.

I dont know, i will continue using it, i love the aesthetic and i enjoy playing the sun mage archtype. Hopefully they dont abandon it completely and nerf it out of existence like they did with total dark...one of the best skills the games ever had