Are we going to discuss Ash Cloud?

  • The_Titan_Tim
    The_Titan_Tim
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    everything a Dragonknight does can be block-casted.

    For old time PvP StamDK this was always true - except one thing - our only high damage single target spammable, Uppercut. This was a huge balancing factor for StamDK and was part of how Corrosive was balanced for so long.

    Right where now Molten Whip has Uppercut by leagues and the new chain provides the same buff that they added to Wrecking Blow to make it comparative.
  • The_Titan_Tim
    The_Titan_Tim
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    Going into week two this Monday, I repeat, this Helping Hands exploit can NOT remain live with the block changes. It will be twice as bad next patch because guard will NEVER drop.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler, @ZOS_Kevin, @ZOS_RichLambert

    Any aknowledgment that you at least see this, whether it’s something that will be addressed or not would be great, I need to know if I’m playing a different game until Necrom launches.
  • BahometZ
    BahometZ
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    On a scale of 1-10, how much of an issue is this? Is Cyrodiil just filled with DKs standing in fields block casting eruption, surrounded by bunnies? If that's their idea of fun, let em. [snip]

    [Edited for Baiting]
    Edited by Psiion on 6 February 2023 03:25
    Pact Magplar - Max CP (NA XB)
  • The_Titan_Tim
    The_Titan_Tim
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    BahometZ wrote: »
    On a scale of 1-10, how much of an issue is this? Is Cyrodiil just filled with DKs standing in fields block casting eruption, surrounded by bunnies? If that's their idea of fun, let em. [snip]

    [Edited for Baiting]

    Enlighten me on how you’ve adapted to fighting players with massive mitigation, unlimited sustain, and unreal dots and burst all in one package.

    PvP isn’t exclusively Cyrodiil where you have one party crashing into another, Dueling and Battlegrounds require much more balance.

    It’s not niche or nonsense, nor is it possible to adapt to overcome it. It’s a broken exploit. Unlimited Stamina… you just flat out ignore something other classes have to work around without any sacrifice whatsoever.

    If it didn’t have a 100% success rate, the top end of players wouldn’t all be switching to Dragonknight as they have been, I’ve got mine already set up for next patch, best you believe.

    Edit: If I’m even playing, because for this to remain live with the block changes, being forced into a Dragonknight is going to absolutely destroy my experience.
    Edited by Psiion on 6 February 2023 03:26
  • Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
    Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
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    Not more nerfs.... This skill isn't breaking anything. At worst it might be considered an annoyance to some, but it's fine how it is. (Considering pve perspective as well!)
    Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna
  • Howda
    Howda
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    The only solution is how the glyph interacts with such a low cost. The cost of the skill is let's say ~6k for 18 Seconds taken by fraction per second.

    The glyph should reduce that amount not to the initial value but to the overall diration. Problem solved.

    I play DK as main for years and the class was under constant changes and almost never good ones.

    You know that ZOS move the lever to one or two classes per year and gives them some love. Atm that love goes to Dens and DKs.

    I acknowledged the problem as DK I also do not use the skill in pvp out of respect as it is clearly an exploit, to an unique skill with magicka cost per second which is not calculated properly on how it should interact with the reduce spellcost glyph.
    Howda
    Don't
    Blood for the PACT
    Dark Elf Dragonknight
    [EU]
  • OBJnoob
    OBJnoob
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    Good to know it's not intentional. Can't wait for the fix! It will be much easier to tolerate now that I know it's just a bug. Bugs happen.
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    @ZOS_GinaBruno, patches ago you mentioned that part of the direction Dragonknight was heading was towards a more difficult sustain management back when Combustion was nerfed yet we have players throwing one reduce magicka cost glyph on an infused piece of jewelry able to cast Ash Cloud for free, repeatedly, exploiting Helping Hands to obtain unlimited Stamina while block-casting.

    Is this working as intended? Or in the direction that your team envisioned for Dragonknight?

    Edited to include the High Isle reasoning behind the Combustion nerf…

    Wanted to follow up here after chatting with the Dev team. The specific behavior you are reporting with Ash Cloud is not intentional. We are investigating a fix for this now - we also wanted to note that there are some performance considerations we need to keep in mind.

    Good to know! Feels like Mistform after the vampire rework all over again with the same functionality rearing it's ugly head with that glyph. The glyph is very weak in just about every situation till you get into abilities that have a very low cost where it makes them close to free. Add in the Helping Hands passive on top of that functionality and the whole combo is rather silly. <.<;
    Edited by Vevvev on 7 February 2023 21:17
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • The_Titan_Tim
    The_Titan_Tim
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    @ZOS_GinaBruno, patches ago you mentioned that part of the direction Dragonknight was heading was towards a more difficult sustain management back when Combustion was nerfed yet we have players throwing one reduce magicka cost glyph on an infused piece of jewelry able to cast Ash Cloud for free, repeatedly, exploiting Helping Hands to obtain unlimited Stamina while block-casting.

    Is this working as intended? Or in the direction that your team envisioned for Dragonknight?

    Edited to include the High Isle reasoning behind the Combustion nerf…

    Wanted to follow up here after chatting with the Dev team. The specific behavior you are reporting with Ash Cloud is not intentional. We are investigating a fix for this now - we also wanted to note that there are some performance considerations we need to keep in mind.

    Thank you for the reply! I’m so glad this is getting looked into, it’s been a problem for a little while, when it was just one or two people doing it, it could be ignored, but when the majority of players got a handle on the exploit, it became too much.
  • Billium813
    Billium813
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    we also wanted to note that there are some performance considerations we need to keep in mind.

    Yeah, we won't have DKs spamming Ash Cloud all over the place as a 1k stam regen. Hopefully that will help with performance.
    Edited by Billium813 on 7 February 2023 23:05
  • The_Titan_Tim
    The_Titan_Tim
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    Billium813 wrote: »
    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    we also wanted to note that there are some performance considerations we need to keep in mind.

    Yeah, we won't have DKs spamming Ash Cloud all over the place as a 1k stam regen. Hopefully that will help with performance.

    Definitely a blessing, hopefully we can see this change before u37 goes live.
  • techprince
    techprince
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    Just revert it back to the normal AOE damage skill just like Unstable Wall/Blockade.
    Edited by techprince on 8 February 2023 08:03
  • Auldwulfe
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    I mostly see this done with tanks in VET dungeons -- which is where I use it --- if it goes, it goes, but I suspect that the queues for getting your transmutes might get a bit longer, or we will see more and more people complaining about fake tanks .... For some of us, it allows us to keep up with the idiots stuck in sprint mode, racing through dungeons, and still have enough stamina to taunt, block, etc, without having to put all our points in stamina.... hence, having the health to tank.... but it is what it is ......

    I don't necessarily rely on it so much for stamina, but as a means to keep up with people that think that charging blindly pulling aggro all over the place is the option .... I suspect I will be labeled a "fake tank" when I don't have enough stamina to keep taunting -- or much lower health, because I had to switch it to stamina to keep up with the lemmings.


    Auldwulfe
    Edited by Auldwulfe on 8 February 2023 19:11
  • The_Titan_Tim
    The_Titan_Tim
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    Auldwulfe wrote: »
    I mostly see this done with tanks in VET dungeons -- which is where I use it --- if it goes, it goes, but I suspect that the queues for getting your transmutes might get a bit longer, or we will see more and more people complaining about fake tanks .... For some of us, it allows us to keep up with the idiots stuck in sprint mode, racing through dungeons, and still have enough stamina to taunt, block, etc, without having to put all our points in stamina.... hence, having the health to tank.... but it is what it is ......

    I don't necessarily rely on it so much for stamina, but as a means to keep up with people that think that charging blindly pulling aggro all over the place is the option .... I suspect I will be labeled a "fake tank" when I don't have enough stamina to keep taunting -- or much lower health, because I had to switch it to stamina to keep up with the lemmings.


    Auldwulfe

    Thank your fellow Dragonknights for bringing the synergy into PvP to obtain unlimited Stamina.

    If you’re struggling with sustain, I can recommend about 20 different sustain sets that could help you, or ultimate generating ones that give you back Stamina every time you use an ultimate, unlike other classes in the game.
  • Auldwulfe
    Auldwulfe
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    Auldwulfe wrote: »
    I mostly see this done with tanks in VET dungeons -- which is where I use it --- if it goes, it goes, but I suspect that the queues for getting your transmutes might get a bit longer, or we will see more and more people complaining about fake tanks .... For some of us, it allows us to keep up with the idiots stuck in sprint mode, racing through dungeons, and still have enough stamina to taunt, block, etc, without having to put all our points in stamina.... hence, having the health to tank.... but it is what it is ......

    I don't necessarily rely on it so much for stamina, but as a means to keep up with people that think that charging blindly pulling aggro all over the place is the option .... I suspect I will be labeled a "fake tank" when I don't have enough stamina to keep taunting -- or much lower health, because I had to switch it to stamina to keep up with the lemmings.


    Auldwulfe

    Thank your fellow Dragonknights for bringing the synergy into PvP to obtain unlimited Stamina.

    If you’re struggling with sustain, I can recommend about 20 different sustain sets that could help you, or ultimate generating ones that give you back Stamina every time you use an ultimate, unlike other classes in the game.

    As I noted, it is what it is -- I've been running VET dungeons, mostly because the queue is so long, looking for tanks -- on my end, all I need is the stones. If I need anything set wise, I let one of my guilds know, and when I am available, and we run it ....

    I usually only NEED to use it in two cases, one of which is the Chasing the Lemming scenario, and if our healer isn't great, as I use the healing morph, and it's there for that backup --- I seriously only set it up that way BECAUSE of the PUG environment ..... if it becomes too much, then I will just run normals for my stones ... I have my monster sets, already.

    I already have high enough sustain, that it is sort of just there to deal with idiots.... I can use it, or not..... it isn't that much, really, in actual play.... it's just there when I get specific situations... as in, two one bar heavy attack sorcs as DPS --- they hold their mouse down and run full speed -- I need it then, because I have to chase them to keep up.....

    Auldwulfe

    P.S. -- Looking at this - the best solution would be to just put Helping Hands under Battle Spirit --
    I haven't had a single problem with fighting this, though my templar drops shards, and they either slowly move, while getting more and more shards, or they drop block, at which point I charge them----
    Even easier with my MagSorc
    Edited by Auldwulfe on 8 February 2023 23:42
  • Wuuffyy
    Wuuffyy
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    @ZOS_GinaBruno, patches ago you mentioned that part of the direction Dragonknight was heading was towards a more difficult sustain management back when Combustion was nerfed yet we have players throwing one reduce magicka cost glyph on an infused piece of jewelry able to cast Ash Cloud for free, repeatedly, exploiting Helping Hands to obtain unlimited Stamina while block-casting.

    Is this working as intended? Or in the direction that your team envisioned for Dragonknight?

    Edited to include the High Isle reasoning behind the Combustion nerf…

    Wanted to follow up here after chatting with the Dev team. The specific behavior you are reporting with Ash Cloud is not intentional. We are investigating a fix for this now - we also wanted to note that there are some performance considerations we need to keep in mind.

    @ZOS_Kevin

    Are we able to receive word whether this unintended interaction might be at least semi-adjusted (think bandaid fix for now) before the PTS is up? With how prevalent DK now is, in combination with the very awesome for PVE, block-through-barswap, changes; it leads me to believe that it may be a severe and even more widespread interaction once the bar swap changes are released to the live iteration of the server.
    Wuuffyy,
    ESO player since 2014
    -PM for questions
  • ForumBully
    ForumBully
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    @ZOS_GinaBruno, patches ago you mentioned that part of the direction Dragonknight was heading was towards a more difficult sustain management back when Combustion was nerfed yet we have players throwing one reduce magicka cost glyph on an infused piece of jewelry able to cast Ash Cloud for free, repeatedly, exploiting Helping Hands to obtain unlimited Stamina while block-casting.

    Is this working as intended? Or in the direction that your team envisioned for Dragonknight?

    Edited to include the High Isle reasoning behind the Combustion nerf…

    Wanted to follow up here after chatting with the Dev team. The specific behavior you are reporting with Ash Cloud is not intentional. We are investigating a fix for this now - we also wanted to note that there are some performance considerations we need to keep in mind.

    It's good that this is being fixed. It's bad that unintended behaviors last for months and years.
  • Billium813
    Billium813
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    ForumBully wrote: »
    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    @ZOS_GinaBruno, patches ago you mentioned that part of the direction Dragonknight was heading was towards a more difficult sustain management back when Combustion was nerfed yet we have players throwing one reduce magicka cost glyph on an infused piece of jewelry able to cast Ash Cloud for free, repeatedly, exploiting Helping Hands to obtain unlimited Stamina while block-casting.

    Is this working as intended? Or in the direction that your team envisioned for Dragonknight?

    Edited to include the High Isle reasoning behind the Combustion nerf…

    Wanted to follow up here after chatting with the Dev team. The specific behavior you are reporting with Ash Cloud is not intentional. We are investigating a fix for this now - we also wanted to note that there are some performance considerations we need to keep in mind.

    It's good that this is being fixed. It's bad that unintended behaviors last for months and years.

    There are tons of bugs. The best thing we can do is be as vocal as possible so that they take notice. I open bugs all the time and they never get fixed or commented on. But 1 thread gets to 3 pages... ZOS takes notice.
  • Dr_Con
    Dr_Con
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    A lot of guide videos usually have a tank off to the side spamming ash cloud while blocking. I never realized they were exploiting. This change is going to be interesting.
  • Wuuffyy
    Wuuffyy
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    Dr_Con wrote: »
    A lot of guide videos usually have a tank off to the side spamming ash cloud while blocking. I never realized they were exploiting. This change is going to be interesting.

    Well something that cost nothing performing normal skill stuff AND giving 1k stam was always an exploit.
    Wuuffyy,
    ESO player since 2014
    -PM for questions
  • The_Titan_Tim
    The_Titan_Tim
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    Dr_Con wrote: »
    A lot of guide videos usually have a tank off to the side spamming ash cloud while blocking. I never realized they were exploiting. This change is going to be interesting.

    Right to put it mathematically, resource recovery ticks every two seconds. Ash Cloud can be cast every second, that is essentially 2,000 stamina recovery for free on demand.

    Broken in and of itself, but you factor in that it doesn’t fit the direction mentioned for the class, as was explained when Combustion got nerfed for High Isle.
    Edited by The_Titan_Tim on 9 February 2023 22:56
  • Dr_Con
    Dr_Con
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    Dr_Con wrote: »
    A lot of guide videos usually have a tank off to the side spamming ash cloud while blocking. I never realized they were exploiting. This change is going to be interesting.

    Right to put it mathematically, resource recovery ticks every two seconds. Ash Cloud can be cast every second, that is essentially 2,000 stamina recovery for free on demand.

    Broken in and of itself, but you factor in that it doesn’t fit the direction mentioned for the class, as was explained when Combustion got nerfed for High Isle.

    Right, so I'm wondering how many fights people believe were viable just because a DK could infinitely hold right click and spam a 0-cost heal that restores stam. It sounds broken but I'm sure the users of it rationalized that if ZOS allowed it to be in the game, it's not broken. The same sort of justification is happening right now with people stacking 20+ sticky hots in cyrodiil- people are still saying "If ZOS didn't want it in the game, they wouldn't allow it." Same argument with Harmony deleting people in PVP. There's probably countless examples that aren't worth going into, but specifically the DK change is likely to invalidate a lot of previous strategies where DK stam sustain was taken for granted.
    Edited by Dr_Con on 10 February 2023 04:11
  • The_Titan_Tim
    The_Titan_Tim
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    @ZOS_GinaBruno, patches ago you mentioned that part of the direction Dragonknight was heading was towards a more difficult sustain management back when Combustion was nerfed yet we have players throwing one reduce magicka cost glyph on an infused piece of jewelry able to cast Ash Cloud for free, repeatedly, exploiting Helping Hands to obtain unlimited Stamina while block-casting.

    Is this working as intended? Or in the direction that your team envisioned for Dragonknight?

    Edited to include the High Isle reasoning behind the Combustion nerf…

    Wanted to follow up here after chatting with the Dev team. The specific behavior you are reporting with Ash Cloud is not intentional. We are investigating a fix for this now - we also wanted to note that there are some performance considerations we need to keep in mind.

    @ZOS_Kevin just wanted to say thanks again, tomorrow we’re going into week three of the PTS and I’m really hoping this can make it into Update 37 and that we can see something in the notes tomorrow addressing it. 🤞
  • The_Titan_Tim
    The_Titan_Tim
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    I have never had more respect for this company than I do right now…

    h6904vjwt1zo.png

    @ZOS_GinaBruno & @ZOS_Kevin I can’t thank both of you enough for making this happen, especially as fast as it did!
  • Dragonlord573
    Dragonlord573
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    Gee thanks, now DK is going to be an absolute pain to play in PvE thanks to Molten Whip being extremely difficult to sustain now.
  • The_Titan_Tim
    The_Titan_Tim
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    Gee thanks, now DK is going to be an absolute pain to play in PvE thanks to Molten Whip being extremely difficult to sustain now.

    Dragonknight is the best class in the game right now for Damage, that hasn’t changed.
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    Gee thanks, now DK is going to be an absolute pain to play in PvE thanks to Molten Whip being extremely difficult to sustain now.

    The other morph, Flame Lash, is easier to sustain if your group can keep off-balance up. Basically cuts the cost in half, adds bonus damage, and heals for every cast against an off-balance/immobilized foe.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • CheeseTuber
    CheeseTuber
    Soul Shriven
    Gee thanks, now DK is going to be an absolute pain to play in PvE thanks to Molten Whip being extremely difficult to sustain now.

    Dragonknight is the best class in the game right now for Damage, that hasn’t changed.

    You aren't wrong but for poor players like me who already struggle to sustain Stamina DK in end-game PvE content like vDSR, this is another extra layer of burden. I understand this was done to fix an exploit but I wonder how much this will affect me. I guess I will have to wait and find out.

    It feels more and more that I should stop playing Stam DK and move to Mag DK since playing Stam DK in PvE feels punishing. :( On the other hand, Mag DK seems to be doing good in both PvE and PvP :/

    If I had known I was going to face all of these troubles, I wouldn't have made my Orc Stam DK way back in 2014
  • The_Titan_Tim
    The_Titan_Tim
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    Gee thanks, now DK is going to be an absolute pain to play in PvE thanks to Molten Whip being extremely difficult to sustain now.

    Dragonknight is the best class in the game right now for Damage, that hasn’t changed.

    You aren't wrong but for poor players like me who already struggle to sustain Stamina DK in end-game PvE content like vDSR, this is another extra layer of burden. I understand this was done to fix an exploit but I wonder how much this will affect me. I guess I will have to wait and find out.

    It feels more and more that I should stop playing Stam DK and move to Mag DK since playing Stam DK in PvE feels punishing. :( On the other hand, Mag DK seems to be doing good in both PvE and PvP :/

    If I had known I was going to face all of these troubles, I wouldn't have made my Orc Stam DK way back in 2014

    Dragonknight DPS are better off, it’s a massive DPS loss to spam any Earthen Heart ability, so the 2 second timer on it is irrelevant, if anything, you’re gaining an extra 220 for when you switch to your backbar to reapply your buffs.
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