Are we going to discuss Ash Cloud?

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Easy solution… put a cooldown on Helping Hands.

master_vanargand · February 2023

ESO has two classes.
A strong DK and the weak other class.
I don't know if this is what the creators wanted.

Wuuffyy · February 2023

At the bare minimum. Ash cloud should not proc helping hands or should have an internal cooldown for it at: at least 10 seconds.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

At the bare minimum. Ash cloud should not proc helping hands or should have an internal cooldown for it at: at least 10 seconds.

100% this. If Helping Hands got a cooldown, it couldn’t be less than 7 seconds, and that’s being generous.

robpr · February 2023

I don't know where you got this "everlasting stamina sustain spamming Ash Cloud while blockcasting" because blocking costs stamina, usually more than Helping Hands could return unless under Spell Wall or 5p Sturdy. The "secret" of DK sustain is and always have been, Battle Roar with occasional Combustion.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

robpr wrote: »

I don't know where you got this "everlasting stamina sustain spamming Ash Cloud while blockcasting" because blocking costs stamina, usually more than Helping Hands could return unless under Spell Wall or 5p Sturdy. The "secret" of DK sustain is and always have been, Battle Roar with occasional Combustion.

It’s how everything ties in together. And you know exactly where the “everlasting stamina sustain spamming Ash Cloud while blockcasting” comes from because you literally just referenced it.

Anyone who isn’t spamming Ash Cloud on a Stamina or Hybrid Dragonknight, is someone who either doesn’t know about this loop, or someone that has any sense of respect for the combat in the game.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

@ZOS_GinaBruno

phantasmalD · February 2023

This interaction was brought up the very day the Ash Cloud cost change was implemented on PTS over a year ago (U32 iirc). Can't remember if it was every directly addressed by a dev.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

phantasmalD wrote: »

This interaction was brought up the very day the Ash Cloud cost change was implemented on PTS over a year ago (U32 iirc). Can't remember if it was every directly addressed by a dev.

Did they acknowledge it? Was it read?

If you can find a developer response to it, that would be great.

Urzigurumash · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

At the bare minimum. Ash cloud should not proc helping hands or should have an internal cooldown for it at: at least 10 seconds.

100% this. If Helping Hands got a cooldown, it couldn’t be less than 7 seconds, and that’s being generous.

6 seconds lines up with the Ult Gen from Mountain's Blessing and is no drop in Stam for those using Frag Shield efficiently. Only thing is that takes away the ability to spam Frag Shield twice in a row or so, not sure if PvE Tanks use Frag Shield or not, but this is a somewhat useful technique for a traditional PvP StamDK. Spamming Frag Shield was never really a particularly imbalanced part of DK before and it's been around since launch.

But it's probably worth the trade to keep the reduced cost on Eruption. Even if it had scaled with Weapon Damage this skill was always out of reach for StamDK because of its cost.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

At the bare minimum. Ash cloud should not proc helping hands or should have an internal cooldown for it at: at least 10 seconds.

100% this. If Helping Hands got a cooldown, it couldn’t be less than 7 seconds, and that’s being generous.

6 seconds lines up with the Ult Gen from Mountain's Blessing and is no drop in Stam for those using Frag Shield efficiently. Only thing is that takes away the ability to spam Frag Shield twice in a row or so, not sure if PvE Tanks use Frag Shield or not, but this is a somewhat useful technique for a traditional PvP StamDK. Spamming Frag Shield was never really a particularly imbalanced part of DK before and it's been around since launch.

But it's probably worth the trade to keep the reduced cost on Eruption. Even if it had scaled with Weapon Damage this skill was always out of reach for StamDK because of its cost.

Fragmented Shield costs 4050 magicka, when the trade is 4050 magicka for 990 stamina, it’s a lot different than 0 for 990, so yes. It wasn’t enabling infinite sustain before, because there was a trade-off. Currently there isn’t one.

Also; there is no reason why one ability should be proc’ing two passives every 6 seconds.

Urzigurumash · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Also; there is no reason why one ability should be proc’ing two passives every 6 seconds.

Tons of them do and this is a core functionality of Tank DK. Burning Light was just revised to proc at the same time as Prism, there's plenty of things that work like this.

And right, that's why it's not imbalanced to rapid spam Helping Hands off Frag, it takes all your Mag. Maybe an easy way to code it is just to have Ash Cloud cost Stam instead of Mag, since Helping Hands doesn't proc off Stam costs, as of the revision to Stone Giant. I have no clue how that would work out for DK Healers.

MurkyWetWolf198 · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

As a DK not running cost-reduction jewelry, I can tell you that the number of people exploiting this are a minority at best

MurkyWetWolf198 · February 2023

But yeah, it's a bit of a niche interaction leading to some funky work-around sustain. Perhaps just put helping hands on a cooldown or something

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

As a DK not running cost-reduction jewelry, I can tell you that the number of people exploiting this are a minority at best

Give it a shot with a cost reduction glyph, until it’s addressed take advantage of it.

Sergykid · February 2023

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

As a DK not running cost-reduction jewelry, I can tell you that the number of people exploiting this are a minority at best

don't know where u play but in bgs every dk is abusing this. U can block forever with it, it enables u to survive forever in a way that wouldn't be possible otherwise.
note that it also heals, and also aoe snares, all for free with a very little investment that would have helped overall with the build anyway

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Sergykid wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

As a DK not running cost-reduction jewelry, I can tell you that the number of people exploiting this are a minority at best

don't know where u play but in bgs every dk is abusing this. U can block forever with it, it enables u to survive forever in a way that wouldn't be possible otherwise.
note that it also heals, and also aoe snares, all for free with a very little investment that would have helped overall with the build anyway

Right, I was kind of confused by what he stated as in my experience it’s everywhere.

Wuuffyy · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s fine the way it is. Helps dk substain and casting it has an animation so trying to spam it won’t give stamina back every sec. So you might get around 450-550 a sec depending on server ping and such which isn’t too bad.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not so I’m going to assume the latter. It’s a known exploit getting taken advantage of by every DK right now.

As a DK not running cost-reduction jewelry, I can tell you that the number of people exploiting this are a minority at best

don't know where u play but in bgs every dk is abusing this. U can block forever with it, it enables u to survive forever in a way that wouldn't be possible otherwise.
note that it also heals, and also aoe snares, all for free with a very little investment that would have helped overall with the build anyway

Right, I was kind of confused by what he stated as in my experience it’s everywhere.

Quite odd that they left this gem here with these changes especially and the prevalence of DK this patch alone.

MetallicMonk · February 2023

Skill needs nuked, it's braindead and unfun.

TechMaybeHic · February 2023

I see nothing wrong with block casting this and waiting for corrosive to be up to then go offensive. What's the problem? I mean; just run away.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with block casting this and waiting for corrosive to be up to then go offensive. What's the problem? I mean; just run away.

You get three feet away and immediately have a Major Berserk chained Dragonknight in your face or you’re getting pelted by Flames of Oblivion. lol

Every time someone hears the Corrosive queue sound, it turns into a dance party, friendlies, foes, we’re all dancing trying to avoid whichever player popped Corrosive.

I know you’re joking, but Corrosive is it’s own demon that needs to be looked at.

Wuuffyy · February 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with block casting this and waiting for corrosive to be up to then go offensive. What's the problem? I mean; just run away.

If running away is the only counter to something not actually close to your skill level. There is a problem.

sneakymitchell · February 2023

Literally using ash clouds you be forced to use other skills cause their duration be gone.

There are other things for classes they get easy substain than dk. Dk has lack substain but there is always be one or two passive that might help you. A recovery base dk won’t be much benefit cause you resources give you flat amount compared to say nightblade that has built in % regen increase so you can stack whatever resource you want.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Literally using ash clouds you be forced to use other skills cause their duration be gone.

There are other things for classes they get easy substain than dk. Dk has lack substain but there is always be one or two passive that might help you. A recovery base dk won’t be much benefit cause you resources give you flat amount compared to say nightblade that has built in % regen increase so you can stack whatever resource you want.

Are you arguing for a % Stamina Recovery passive as a replacement to Helping Hands? I’m all for it, although the class would need to lose Battle Roar’s resource return given that scenario. As now we’re right back where we were with the class having better sustain than everyone around them which is not the direction the class was intended.

Billium813 · February 2023

IMO, the issue is with how Glyph of Reduce Spell Cost works with a unique skill cost like Ash Cloud. We can all debate day in and day out on how DK needs the sustain, or how much Helping Hands should recover to be fair, or how trivial this might be with server lag and yata yata yata

However, it is a FACT that Glyph of Reduce Spell Cost was never designed to work on this unique kind of cost and that is where the "Bug" is.

I really like the idea of Skills costing resource reduction instead of just a flat, one time cost! I like how it could look to be cheap up front, but can quickly paint a player into a corner if they use too many of these kinds of skill costs. I think there could be good room for design in this area!

But Glyph of Reduce Spell Cost is punching too far above its weight here. Reducing a sustain cost by 200 is not the same as reducing a one time cost of 200. This is not an interaction that was considered when Ash Cloud was changed, pure and simple. Fix it ZOS.

OBJnoob · February 2023

It should either only effect the initial cost or it should become a percentage cost reduction instead. So... Say an infused reduce cost is like 350, which I think it is. And say the average skill cost is like 3k. So just make it read 10% instead of 350.

Urzigurumash · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Literally using ash clouds you be forced to use other skills cause their duration be gone.

There are other things for classes they get easy substain than dk. Dk has lack substain but there is always be one or two passive that might help you. A recovery base dk won’t be much benefit cause you resources give you flat amount compared to say nightblade that has built in % regen increase so you can stack whatever resource you want.

Are you arguing for a % Stamina Recovery passive as a replacement to Helping Hands? I’m all for it, although the class would need to lose Battle Roar’s resource return given that scenario. As now we’re right back where we were with the class having better sustain than everyone around them which is not the direction the class was intended.

Refer to my post #26 in my thread. DK shouldn't sustain while kiting as well as the other classes, but should sustain better than the other classes while facetanking - according to my narrow, old-fashioned view of the class.

Maybe it is true that the imbalance is simply in the interaction with the Reduce Cost glyph.

But this gets to a larger, more general imbalance: if HP Regen is subject to halving from Battlespirit, why aren't Mag and Stam Regen? This inequality between previously equalized stats has overpowered Undeath, which has overpowered Flame Damage. If Mag or Stam Regen were subject to Battlespirit, not so many would be able to run Undeath. If HP Regen were not subject to Battlespirit, not so many would want to run Undeath. Not a real suggestion there, just a contemplation.

Vevvev · February 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

IMO, the issue is with how Glyph of Reduce Spell Cost works with a unique skill cost like Ash Cloud. We can all debate day in and day out on how DK needs the sustain, or how much Helping Hands should recover to be fair, or how trivial this might be with server lag and yata yata yata

However, it is a FACT that Glyph of Reduce Spell Cost was never designed to work on this unique kind of cost and that is where the "Bug" is.

I really like the idea of Skills costing resource reduction instead of just a flat, one time cost! I like how it could look to be cheap up front, but can quickly paint a player into a corner if they use too many of these kinds of skill costs. I think there could be good room for design in this area!

But Glyph of Reduce Spell Cost is punching too far above its weight here. Reducing a sustain cost by 200 is not the same as reducing a one time cost of 200. This is not an interaction that was considered when Ash Cloud was changed, pure and simple. Fix it ZOS.

This glyph also made the Vampire Rework Mistform incredibly strong as well. Having it getting change up to be % based over a raw value might help it imo.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

All viable options, it’s not a rocket science fix, when that block change goes live, if this exploit isn’t addressed; it’s going to be terrible, everything a Dragonknight does can be block-casted.

Urzigurumash · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

everything a Dragonknight does can be block-casted.

For old time PvP StamDK this was always true - except one thing - our only high damage single target spammable, Uppercut. This was a huge balancing factor for StamDK and was part of how Corrosive was balanced for so long.