CAB_Life wrote: »

On console, at least, you get on mic or you usually get kicked in harder vet content (not by me, necessarily, unless you’re being a total arse—that’s just the status quo). People usually aren’t that terrible, either, they just need real-time instructions.

This very much.

A while back I was in a random vet dungeon GF as a full tank. As soon as I loaded in there was a vote to kick a CP160 player. Since none went along with the vote the healer dropped. The CP capped DPS off healed and the three of us cleared the vet dungeon on HM without a death. That healer clearly made a very incorrect judgement and that CP 160 held their own just fine.

I no longer queue solo but we often queue with only 3 of us to see what we can get. We see the crème of the crop. A CP capped melee player who said they did not have an interrupt was one of the finest examples that setting high requirements are not going to work as some think they will. Everyone has a melee ranged interrupt regardless of their build and is one of the first things we are taunt early on. irrc, it is in the tutorial.

witchdoctor wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

Can I paraphrase your stance on the matter as: "The status quo of the dungeon finder is good enough and doesn't need any change, as you have the workaround of making your own groups"?

No, not really.

daedalusAI wrote: »

Intriguing how you didn't discuss any of his factual points, but instead dismissed all of them with the broad stroke of "opinion is not a fact". Are you sure you want to discuss the matter of the dungeon finder?

Again, I dispute he ever gave factual points. He gave his opinion wrapped in a layer of condescension.

Just because he thinks there are other games with better grouping tools does not make it true, and, if you read what you quoted, I did reply to his 7 ideas of what would improve the GF.

Let me come back to you wanting to paraphrase me.

I suspect the fundamental difference between our positions is this:

I see the GF tool as serving one function, and one function only: putting 4 players together into a dungeon, with 1 as tank, 1 as healer, and 2 as DPS.

That's it. In that regard, baring its occasional technical failures, it does exactly that. Nothing more, nothing less.

I see your complaint, and Buttaface's 'facts,' as well as all the other myriad posts about failed PUGs, fake roles, et al., as complaints about the community's use of the GF.

I don't disagree with your complaint in the OP. It would be smashing! if people did not queue for vet dungeons until they had some basic skills.

But, I don't blame the GF for that. The GF didn't promise my lowbie a few hours ago to provide a competent tank. Instead, it gave me someone who had gone out of their way to farm a set of under-level 34 Ebon Armour and who then elected to queue as tank using a 2-handed weapon and never taunting.

Other than making a crack in a guild's Discord, and this comment, I just did what I expect others to do: stay, or adapt. I tanked it. It was DC1, whoppity-doo.

You had issues with 2 groups in vetBC2 HM. You elected to go back to the GF a third time. So, yes, I say the issue was you not putting together a group by other means. I say this for the sole reason that you clearly expected the GF to provide you with success, which is not its function.

You wanted to succeed. Fair enough! The GF cannot give you success.

daedalusAI wrote: »

My OP is about the dungeon finder and its lacking requirements, and yet the majority in here parrots about "make your own group" or "you should teach them", but that's not even the topic: I want to use the functionality called dungeon finder without getting people who just now learn in a vet dungeon what moving out of bad means.

There it is. Sorry. Until the skill of the player base improves ... you will continue to take your chances every time you click 'join the queue.'

daedalusAI wrote: »

The quality of the dungeon/group finder is a good metric to go by: I remember when Heroes of the Storm changed their group finder from "Making equally balanced teams" to "Shortest queue time by throwing long-term players and complete beginners in the same group" - and the resulting games were just laughable, as the overwhelming majority of games were just one-sides stomps.

ESO is doing the latter: minimal requirements which don't even deserve to be named so, as it's just the level/CP number as gating mechanism, 0 in-game tools or help to properly learn ESO's combat and then I reckon opting for the "Shortest queue possible".

*If* ESO is doing that, it is because there is no worthy tutorial. Which, if you had read what you quoted, you would see was the one idea that I agreed with.

You simplify way too much:the dungeon finder is indeed a tool to put a group of 4 people together, but already the basic requirement of a role check/role lock is missing as anyone can fake being a tank/heal/dps, so your group composition can range from 1 tank/1 heal/2 dps to 4 dps, as 2 are faking to be tank and heal

Judging by your example you 1. didn't tell the tank what tanking is 2. you didn't leave 3. you didn't kick him and 4. you fulfilled his role of tank, a role he himself selected.

Define "expected the GF to provide you with success", because there's a difference between wanting a proper dungeon finder with requirements to filter people out - which I want - and the expectation that the dungeon finder will assemble a group that will succeed 100% of the time in clearing the dungeon.

I do roll the dice every time I use the dungeon finder, but it should never be this way.

idk wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

idk wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The OP does not actually suggest any changes.

Irrelevant. Just another red herring that you and posters like you specialize in.

idk wrote: »

Being there is a minimum requirement for each dungeon via GF that were changes not long ago after feedback from players what they are requesting is essentially there.

Another completely irrelevant red herring and non sequitur wrapped into one. Just because the GF has been changed in the past or even yesterday does not invalidate OP's concerns and right to feedback about it today without being CONSTANTLY fallaciously derailed by you and yours. And those changes obviously do not address OP's concerns invalidating the "essentially there" nonsense.

idk wrote: »

OP is basically just complaining because they were part of some failed groups.

aaannnnd, let's wrap it all up with a straw man. OP did not post anything like the above.

idk wrote: »

Fact: In every MMORPG I have played I have been able to get better groups consistently forming my own group vs having a computer form a random group for me. To call suggesting such a sound (and easy) advice as fallacious is rather fallacious itself.

Utterly nonresponsive to my my post. Do you have anything to say about the actual thread topic? The group finder in ESO? or just more fallacies and hollow post count fluffing?

So if your opinion differs you call it a red herring and when a comment directly addresses what you stated it is irrelevant if it is inconvenient to what you stated.

Fact: we have all given our opinions on the matter and none are more important than the others. By calling other people thoughts on the matter red herrings you are merely being dismissive when offering nothing better of value.

Quite rich coming from the guy who hides behind a "We" when expressing his opinion.

I suggest reading that sentence again as you are reading a whole lot into it that is not there as it is clear I am speaking for all of us that the sentence clearly refers to multiple people have given their opinion. Though the fact that you made bold the word "red herring" seems to indicate you are just as dismissive of other peoples opinions as the person I quoted so your comment make sense in that context.

daedalusAI wrote: »

idk wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The OP does not actually suggest any changes.

Irrelevant. Just another red herring that you and posters like you specialize in.

idk wrote: »

Being there is a minimum requirement for each dungeon via GF that were changes not long ago after feedback from players what they are requesting is essentially there.

Another completely irrelevant red herring and non sequitur wrapped into one. Just because the GF has been changed in the past or even yesterday does not invalidate OP's concerns and right to feedback about it today without being CONSTANTLY fallaciously derailed by you and yours. And those changes obviously do not address OP's concerns invalidating the "essentially there" nonsense.

idk wrote: »

OP is basically just complaining because they were part of some failed groups.

aaannnnd, let's wrap it all up with a straw man. OP did not post anything like the above.

idk wrote: »

Fact: In every MMORPG I have played I have been able to get better groups consistently forming my own group vs having a computer form a random group for me. To call suggesting such a sound (and easy) advice as fallacious is rather fallacious itself.

Utterly nonresponsive to my my post. Do you have anything to say about the actual thread topic? The group finder in ESO? or just more fallacies and hollow post count fluffing?

So if your opinion differs you call it a red herring and when a comment directly addresses what you stated it is irrelevant if it is inconvenient to what you stated.

Fact: we have all given our opinions on the matter and none are more important than the others. By calling other people thoughts on the matter red herrings you are merely being dismissive when offering nothing better of value.

Additionally the usual mantra of "Make your own group" is nothing but a workaround for a failed dungeon finder, because all the people who utter it clearly imply that the dungeon finder IS lacking - because why else would you recommend to not use a functionality of a software and instead do it manually?

Far from it. As I stated in one post I made here, in every MMORPG I have played I have always been able to regularly get a better group when forming my own than what they GF has. You admit very much there is a wide range of player skill in this MMOGPG and that very clear fact you have laid out applies to all MMORPGs so forming a group from the decent players from your guild is always going to be much better than a random group from throughout the game. It is pretty obvious that would be the case though it is the skilled players that tend to notice the lesser skilled players more than the other way around. Of course you may be suggesting that every GF in every MMORPG is fail, idk.

It seems you ignore reality of what you posted earlier: "We pretty much realize that people who come to the forums to complain about failed GF groups were part of that group, part of the failure, yet choose to blame the other three."

Please point me towards other posters in here who voiced similar thought + allowed you to talk for them.

You admit that in the MMORPGs you're playing the dungeon finder tool is inferior to manually starting a group. The question is why: do those dungeon finders also have minimal/almost non-existent requirements like ESO or despite having more requirements the players in the group still being bad?

daedalusAI wrote: »

idk wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

idk wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The OP does not actually suggest any changes.

Irrelevant. Just another red herring that you and posters like you specialize in.

idk wrote: »

Being there is a minimum requirement for each dungeon via GF that were changes not long ago after feedback from players what they are requesting is essentially there.

Another completely irrelevant red herring and non sequitur wrapped into one. Just because the GF has been changed in the past or even yesterday does not invalidate OP's concerns and right to feedback about it today without being CONSTANTLY fallaciously derailed by you and yours. And those changes obviously do not address OP's concerns invalidating the "essentially there" nonsense.

idk wrote: »

OP is basically just complaining because they were part of some failed groups.

aaannnnd, let's wrap it all up with a straw man. OP did not post anything like the above.

idk wrote: »

Fact: In every MMORPG I have played I have been able to get better groups consistently forming my own group vs having a computer form a random group for me. To call suggesting such a sound (and easy) advice as fallacious is rather fallacious itself.

Utterly nonresponsive to my my post. Do you have anything to say about the actual thread topic? The group finder in ESO? or just more fallacies and hollow post count fluffing?

So if your opinion differs you call it a red herring and when a comment directly addresses what you stated it is irrelevant if it is inconvenient to what you stated.

Fact: we have all given our opinions on the matter and none are more important than the others. By calling other people thoughts on the matter red herrings you are merely being dismissive when offering nothing better of value.

Quite rich coming from the guy who hides behind a "We" when expressing his opinion.

I suggest reading that sentence again as you are reading a whole lot into it that is not there as it is clear I am speaking for all of us that the sentence clearly refers to multiple people have given their opinion. Though the fact that you made bold the word "red herring" seems to indicate you are just as dismissive of other peoples opinions as the person I quoted so your comment make sense in that context.

daedalusAI wrote: »

idk wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The OP does not actually suggest any changes.

Irrelevant. Just another red herring that you and posters like you specialize in.

idk wrote: »

Being there is a minimum requirement for each dungeon via GF that were changes not long ago after feedback from players what they are requesting is essentially there.

Another completely irrelevant red herring and non sequitur wrapped into one. Just because the GF has been changed in the past or even yesterday does not invalidate OP's concerns and right to feedback about it today without being CONSTANTLY fallaciously derailed by you and yours. And those changes obviously do not address OP's concerns invalidating the "essentially there" nonsense.

idk wrote: »

OP is basically just complaining because they were part of some failed groups.

aaannnnd, let's wrap it all up with a straw man. OP did not post anything like the above.

idk wrote: »

Fact: In every MMORPG I have played I have been able to get better groups consistently forming my own group vs having a computer form a random group for me. To call suggesting such a sound (and easy) advice as fallacious is rather fallacious itself.

Utterly nonresponsive to my my post. Do you have anything to say about the actual thread topic? The group finder in ESO? or just more fallacies and hollow post count fluffing?

So if your opinion differs you call it a red herring and when a comment directly addresses what you stated it is irrelevant if it is inconvenient to what you stated.

Fact: we have all given our opinions on the matter and none are more important than the others. By calling other people thoughts on the matter red herrings you are merely being dismissive when offering nothing better of value.

Additionally the usual mantra of "Make your own group" is nothing but a workaround for a failed dungeon finder, because all the people who utter it clearly imply that the dungeon finder IS lacking - because why else would you recommend to not use a functionality of a software and instead do it manually?

Far from it. As I stated in one post I made here, in every MMORPG I have played I have always been able to regularly get a better group when forming my own than what they GF has. You admit very much there is a wide range of player skill in this MMOGPG and that very clear fact you have laid out applies to all MMORPGs so forming a group from the decent players from your guild is always going to be much better than a random group from throughout the game. It is pretty obvious that would be the case though it is the skilled players that tend to notice the lesser skilled players more than the other way around. Of course you may be suggesting that every GF in every MMORPG is fail, idk.

You admit that in the MMORPGs you're playing the dungeon finder tool is inferior to manually starting a group. The question is why: do those dungeon finders also have minimal/almost non-existent requirements like ESO or despite having more requirements the players in the group still being bad?

It is pretty simple why forming ones own group is better than using GF in any game. The devs will never set the minimum requirements for using GF at the level of the most skilled players as most of the player base would then be locked out. As such you can always do better forming your own group. It is really that simple.

It was barely a year ago Zos increased the minimum standards for entering each dungeon via GF and did this with player feedback. Nothing has changed to increase difficulty of any of the dungeons. In fact there has been some power creep since then so they are slightly easier.

You admit increasing the CP cap is pointless.

You suggest clearing the normal dungeon be a requirement but also acknowledge they really not very challenging. I would add that most strong experienced players never bother with the normal dungeon. So not only not a good barrier (as you indicated).

Zos could implement role training as a requirement similar to what FF has. I thought they were brain dead easy but they do test on very basic aspects such as move out of stupid. It is not much, but something.

Regardless, it would still be far superior to form ones own because there would still be a wide berth of skill level between what can be tested for and the best players on the server. That will always be a fact

I wouldn't mind a test to enable the ability to join que for veteran DLC dungeons. Something similar <not exact> to TSW Gatekeeper tank/heal/dps test that would function to see that players meet a Basic tank test / Basic heal check / Basic DPS test with AoE's / Bash require mechanic involved.

It would fix several issues across the board. Those players that "Absolutely hate" DLC dungeons in their que will simply not have them until they take the test <Normals would be included however>. Those that do can Specific que and random que into them. The pool of players for randoms will never be separate as it would pool players just like DLC does now <It would essentially be as if a player didn't own the DLC to random into it>. Its basically the "Lets make a different DLC que" without making it a different actual que, which lets be honest unless it rewarded amazing things would be dead.

It would give clear goals for players that a tad lost to strive for, while keeping base vet dungeons open to all. 20/25K for a dps check for base clear seems ok to me.

However each player should be given the opportunity to enter the dungeon with a pre-made regardless of Test/CP similar to how they act now.

The tests IMO would be character specific not account wide

DLM wrote: »

I still don't understand why all these noobs are queueing for content they are not cut out for and most importantly can't even speak up to warn that they don't know a dungeon, especially DLCs. If that's fear of being kicked, do they seriously think that no one is going to find out? They won't do illusion more than 2 minutes and will either be kicked anyway or people are going to leave the group and they still won't be able to complete their dungeon. TL;DR: if you are an idiot please stay clear from the vet queue.

Its because they are delusional to thinking they will be able to complete the dungeon with 0 knowledge of fights and 9000 1shot mechanics until they die 100 times. Most of the time in DLC I see people spending full resources on surviving instead of doing any dps lol.

I did a march of sacrifice the other day in PuG and thank god I had a 810 cp knowledgeable player to help me it was basically a full carry for us. There needs to be an achievement and awesome title for 1 million revives in dungeons so at least you're progressing something during the struggle. Though that number may be too low I could hit it in a week easily.

I am on graveyard hours so pugging is my only option really unless I found an aussie guild or something. Not everyone can just FoRm ThEiR oWn gRoUp its not as easy as it sounds even on normal hours I've never found this mythical guild that always has people willing to dungeon with you. I've tried discord I've tried reddit I've tried guilds.

I had to quit WoW because none of the content could be accessed in pug without insane requirements basically forced to sit in town all day with nothing to do. So I am at least glad ESO allows anyone into vet DLC content, however the requirements are far too low or the game doesn't give players enough information and training. It wouldn't hurt to add a 'dungeon journal' like WoW has that explains the mechanics for every boss.

There could even be a dps,heal and tank check like in WoW (though it doesn't gate your ability to queue I believe it used to) where you earn bronze/silver/gold medal for your performance in challenging tests that need to be complete before queueing for harder content. Bronze for normal, Silver for vet, Gold for vet DLC. Tank has to keep multiple aggro off healer/dps. Dps has to meet a parse requirement. Healer has to heal obviously and all of these need to do their role during an onslaught of mechanics.

You just can't expect regular joe straight outta overworld to come into a vet and succeed since CP can come from anywhere. If you can't at the very least solo overworld bosses then you don't belong in vet.

The Group Finder is not your mum.

It’s not there to make life fair for you, or mollycoddle you, or vet your companions. It won’t make you tea or pat you on the head and tell you everything will be all right.

It’s there to put groups of random players together and it trusts that they are relatively honest about their roles and abilities.

You say you are a tank/healer/DPS and it takes you at your word. If you’re the type of low grader who lies about that sort of thing, it provides a fallback mechanism that allows your companions to kick you. That’s what it does, that’s all it does and expecting it to do any more is like saying you want to be treated like junior schoolkids and have your hands held the whole time.

At some point, if you want it to put you with other players it’s going to pick players you wouldn’t have. Deal with it like an adult or don’t use it for that.

peacenote wrote: »

I think some tweaks could be made to make our experiences better, and due to the flexibility of our roles in ESO, I think we can do better than an all or nothing approach. Some ideas:

1. The 15 minute penalty to leave group does a small ramp up. First time, you can re-queue immediately. 2nd time, five minutes. 3rd, ten minutes. 4th, 15 min. This also helps if you leave a group by mistake, which I have done.
   
   
2. Each dungeon is assigned a recommended cp minimum. If, via the random queue, you end up in a dungeon where you are 500cp or more below the recommended minimum, you can choose to leave without any penalty. This would encourage players to do the right thing if they are struggling instead of penalizing them.
   
   -variation 1: increase or decrease cp differential; this was just an example
   -variation 2: allow this only within the first 10 min of the dungeon, to reduce potential abuse where people do this to avoid a specific boss or as some kind of new farming attempt.
   
   
3. Each role has recommendations and gives an alert if you don't meet them. However it does not keep you from entering the dungeon. This would help newer players who truly don't know better to obtain advice; this would alert more experienced players who accidentally are in the wrong gear; this would not inconvenience unique builds. For example, my stamina warden healer would not appreciate being banned from a dungeon because she doesn't equip a resto staff, however I would not mind seeing an error message if I am a healer without a resto staff.

1. No as it encourages dropping the group. Also, I expect it is rare someone accidently drops a group but realize it probably happens sometimes.
2. Each dungeon is already assigned a minimum CP. With player feedback Zos reviewed and adjusted the minimum CP requirement for each dungeon ~ a year ago. Raising it another couple hundred CP on DLC dungeons would do little as it is not a measure of player skill.
3. The only requirement that can be made is a tank having a taunt unlocked and healer a group heal unlocked. Zos could implement a short training session that needs to be completed to be able to queue for a specific role like they have in FF but I found those pretty basic and very easy. Granted, it would weed out the very worst of the players.

However, groups would still fail as such a test should measure minimum requirements so someone that wants a better team would still need to form their own group. In every MMORPG with a GF a player in a decent guild will also have a better group if they form it themselves than deal with randomness of the GF. That is just a simple reality.