ESO needs Proving Grounds for dungeon entry.

flguy147ub17_ESO · April 2017

One thing i will blame pretty much the whole community which drives me insane, Is people not to stopping before ever pulling one mob in dungeons and check to make sure everybody has done it and know the mechanics of it. Everybody has to do a dungeon for the first time so it could be somebody in your groups first time. But never once has people checked this, this would help so much if people can literally chill for 5 secs to make sure. I have played MMOs where this happened every single time and many times before every boss. It takes 5 secs and literally 30 secs to go over the strat on boss fights. If everybody would do this it would help dungeons be much smoother. Now i know that doesnt help somebody who doesnt have a good spec, gear, high cp or understand how to play their role. But it will help tremendously.

Daemons_Bane · April 2017

Phinix1 wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Not at all.. I call you selfish for suggesting that people need to go through a check phase before being allowed into dungeons, because you got a pug that you thought was not good enough.. Was that clear enough?

Let me ask you this then. Do you think it is acceptable for someone to queue for group content where others are depending on them, and then not use ANY abilities, just light attack?

Yes.. I actually do.. If you sign up for a random group in an mmo, this is what it could end with.. It's the same principle as if you signed up for PvP in your start gear.. You would get mauled instantly, but it was your own choice

Phinix1 · April 2017

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Not at all.. I call you selfish for suggesting that people need to go through a check phase before being allowed into dungeons, because you got a pug that you thought was not good enough.. Was that clear enough?

Let me ask you this then. Do you think it is acceptable for someone to queue for group content where others are depending on them, and then not use ANY abilities, just light attack?

Yes.. I actually do.. If you sign up for a random group in an mmo, this is what it could end with.. It's the same principle as if you signed up for PvP in your start gear.. You would get mauled instantly, but it was your own choice

Well again, just have to agree to disagree. I would consider it incredibly rude and selfish.

Magdalina · April 2017

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Not at all.. I call you selfish for suggesting that people need to go through a check phase before being allowed into dungeons, because you got a pug that you thought was not good enough.. Was that clear enough?

Let me ask you this then. Do you think it is acceptable for someone to queue for group content where others are depending on them, and then not use ANY abilities, just light attack?

Yes.. I actually do.. If you sign up for a random group in an mmo, this is what it could end with.. It's the same principle as if you signed up for PvP in your start gear.. You would get mauled instantly, but it was your own choice

In PvP other people don't depend on you, for the most part. In a dungeon, they do. And yes, it is your duty to them to at least somewhat perform the role you queued for.

Daemons_Bane · April 2017

Phinix1 wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Not at all.. I call you selfish for suggesting that people need to go through a check phase before being allowed into dungeons, because you got a pug that you thought was not good enough.. Was that clear enough?

Let me ask you this then. Do you think it is acceptable for someone to queue for group content where others are depending on them, and then not use ANY abilities, just light attack?

Yes.. I actually do.. If you sign up for a random group in an mmo, this is what it could end with.. It's the same principle as if you signed up for PvP in your start gear.. You would get mauled instantly, but it was your own choice

Well again, just have to agree to disagree. I would consider it incredibly rude and selfish.

That depends.. And since we don't know them, we will never have the answer.. If they were indeed good players that just derped around, yes it was dumb.. But if they tried their best, there is nothing bad to be said about them

Majic · April 2017

Yet another example...

In ESO, Hell Is Other People.™

ofSunhold · April 2017

Phinix1 wrote: »

uzbachchi wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Meanwhile, they might ask themselves why so many MMO players prefer to solo these days rather than find themselves the butt of scorn and derision because they just want to play a game and not be bothered with all the elitist stuff that dominates a lot of the group agenda.

Basically this. I haven't started group content yet at CP367 and it's mainly because of the scornful, derisive threads I read on here. They don't do anything to encourage me to try it, rather they discourage even thinking about it.

I think this is totally unfair.

Yes there are people in the game that will scorn and ridicule people for not playing min-max builds, and those people are rude. But to suggest that someone on the forums saying a Proving Ground to test and help people improve prior to queueing for group content (which would help them avoid that scorn) are the same and scornful and ridiculing people is really not right.

No one was scorning anyone. No one was ridiculing anyone. All I suggested was that a training/proving ground to help people learn how to play better and set a minimum level challenge to enter group content would be beneficial to the game experience.

I agree with you, and in fact this would address the "I'm afraid to queue for dungeons" problem just as much as the "zomg these pugs know nothing at all" problem. The game needs to give people more information - this sink-or-swim policy sucks for everybody.

The game is more fun when people know what the hell is going on. The game is more fun when people are, and know they are, competent.

It's fantastic if people go research dungeons and builds, it's great if vet players are willing to teach, but there NEEDS to be a basic level of information provided by the game itself. Tutorials that actually explain things aren't so much to ask for, and since there's nothing at all for dungeons right now, that's where they could start. (And then for the love of god do something about the Alliance War tutorial, which is nearly information-free.)

dday3six · April 2017

Well according to the general consensus we're not suppose to mention that sort of thing as it's our responsibility to either carry or mentor those people. Which is why I don't use the group finder, and I've never had grouping problems to this extent with other MMOs.

While I had a great deal of fun with ESO I firmly believe it's fraying at the seems, but sadly surrounded by sycophants who will gleefully drown out those speaking out on the ever growing list of issues the game has.

Tholian1 · April 2017

I could watch hours of long winded and often off-topic instructional videos from streamers and would still need to experience the content myself and would most likely make mistakes and not remember half the stuff from the videos.

Players should be able to learn at their own pace by participating in the content. If they are jumping into the hardest dungeons, then that is the fault of ZoS for sticking the best rewards in them.

Daemons_Bane · April 2017

Tholian1 wrote: »

I could watch hours of long winded and often off-topic instructional videos from streamers and would still need to experience the content myself and would most likely make mistakes and not remember half the stuff from the videos.

Insightful earned right there

kargen27 · April 2017

There is a proving ground. We call them normal dungeons. Normal dungeons are there so people can learn skill rotation and how to deal with mechanics.

Normal dungeons are where you can go to test new bar configurations or armor sets.

Personally I think the bigger problem in the game is good players carrying less experienced or less skilled players through normal content so the new players do not have to deal with learning mechanics. These less experienced players then step into the vet dungeons and don't know what they need to do.

If you queue for a random normal dungeon you should do so with the anticipation some members of that group will need some advice and the run could take some time. If you want a quick run that is what your guild or friends list is for.

clocksstoppe · April 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Surely it is role, and duty, of "experienced" players to pass that along.

No, it's not. My time is worth more than to pass along anything I don't want to.

AhPook_Is_Here · April 2017

Phinix1 wrote: »

Last night I healed a group where the tank was always the last to run in and never taunted anything, one DPS was light attacking with ice staff only, and the other was spamming Acid Spray over and over. None of these people would have ever been able to queue for a dungeon and waste other people's time if there were some skill barrier to entry like what WoW offers with the Proving Grounds.

It would also be a great place for ZOS to offer people build pointers and suggestions to improve their playstyle. Things like "always put down an AOE of some kind before mashing one button to increase DPS" seem obvious but would really help it "click" for some people.

I realize not everyone has time to do a google search for a youtube video on improving their build, but if they are unwilling to put out the minimal effort, they should not be able to waste the time of other paying customers that do.

A Proving Ground would ensure that people who are happy with single player level of difficulty stay in single player, and people who are willing to put out the minimal effort to try new things and improve their build for group play are what you end up with in the group content.

They had this at the beginning of the game, it was called Cadwell's silver and gold and VR levels. You'd get 1 shot by normal mobs if you didn't time your block at the right time. You had to pay attention, block, interrupt, dodge and CC to stay alive and kill packs of 5 normal mobs. People hated it and they nerfed it to where it is today. Dungeons are the training grounds now. They are the 1st tier up from 1 shot everything.

Daemons_Bane · April 2017

Older and/or more experienced players are of course free to choose whether to give advice or not

Just as new players can choose not to listen hehe.. I bet advice are mostly appreciated though

Eshelmen · April 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Surely it is role, and duty, of "experienced" players to pass that along.
Rather than getting all "i don't have time for this" preachy.

3 months ago I was a CP250 player who had never been in a guild, hardly done any group content at all and was resigned to missing out on some aspects of the game because I just wasn't seeing any guild recruiting messages that "clicked" with me.

Now, I'm an Officer in the Guild I did join, helping less experienced (though some with more CP than me) players learn the ropes for Vet Dungeons and Pledges and starting to put together a shortlist of the players that want to put the effort into gearing, and skilling up for Trials. And in my "self time" I am gearing up and learning how to solo Vet content.

Without the Officers of my guild to show me the ropes I wouldn't be able to pass that along. No, I'm not an expert yet, I still learn things almost every run, and there's still times we make mistakes.

If experienced player CBA to pass on the knowledge they have, they have no one to blame but themselves if the newly minted CP160 players don't know what do to.

All The Best

And that's great and all, I for one have a similar mindset. Help as many as you can. But that's a pretty lazy strategy on Zeni's behalf to leave it to us Vet players instead of implementing things that will help the majority of new players in dungeons.
Not everyone has the time, nor should anyone be expected to have to put in the time to teach anyone and everyone. And it's absurd to push that on players to do so.

I'm paying Zeni for myself to play their game, not to teach others how to play.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · April 2017

I have no issues helping new players learn the ropes but 9 times out 10 I'm met with your an elitist or I know that but I like my build the way it is. I've never said you have to do X to be able to do Y but people in general get offended easily and I just prefer avoid people assuming I'm being an elitist. The reason most people don't want to help each other is because of how people react. So if I do pug I make sure I can solo the instance in case I get a sub optimal group and provide assistance wen asked. Additionally to piggy back off of op's statements it really shouldn't be expected of the higher skilled player to teach everyone how to play they may be in a time crunch or not speak the same language.

alexkdd99 · April 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Surely it is role, and duty, of "experienced" players to pass that along.
Rather than getting all "i don't have time for this" preachy.

3 months ago I was a CP250 player who had never been in a guild, hardly done any group content at all and was resigned to missing out on some aspects of the game because I just wasn't seeing any guild recruiting messages that "clicked" with me.

Now, I'm an Officer in the Guild I did join, helping less experienced (though some with more CP than me) players learn the ropes for Vet Dungeons and Pledges and starting to put together a shortlist of the players that want to put the effort into gearing, and skilling up for Trials. And in my "self time" I am gearing up and learning how to solo Vet content.

Without the Officers of my guild to show me the ropes I wouldn't be able to pass that along. No, I'm not an expert yet, I still learn things almost every run, and there's still times we make mistakes.

If experienced player CBA to pass on the knowledge they have, they have no one to blame but themselves if the newly minted CP160 players don't know what do to.

All The Best

It is the role of the player first to take some kind of initiative in improving their skill. It is the role of experienced players second

I honestly see 0 negatives in having a system op is suggesting. Those who know what to do can play with others and those that don't have a way to learn. This game does a poor job on teaching people. It is pretty much entirely up to all the players to figure things out themselves and to help others.

The game could really benefit from a proving ground with an advanced tutorial in it. Explaining buffs, debuffs, rotations, etc.

The only possible negative I could possibly see from certain people is them not being able to be carried through everything anymore. Atleast not by randoms anyways. And that isn't really a negative to the majority who don't expect others to carry them through content.

andreasv · April 2017

tinythinker wrote: »

There have been suggestions for having role-specific NPC-based instances as a kind of training ground that could be offered as mini-quests where you are asked to do things, to spot what certain mechanics look like, etc, beyond what you get in the Wailing Prison. Like an NPC saying "Use a taunt on that beast" and "OK now move it over to the statue and keep it there".

Haven't seen any ZOS comments on said suggestions.

I've started a tank in FFXIV during the easter break, and when you start dungeons there an NPC will introduce you into tank tasks, e.g. how to taunt. I thought that's a nice idea for players who do dungeons in an MMO the first time.
It may end up with ESO at some point.

Daemons_Bane · April 2017

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Surely it is role, and duty, of "experienced" players to pass that along.
Rather than getting all "i don't have time for this" preachy.

3 months ago I was a CP250 player who had never been in a guild, hardly done any group content at all and was resigned to missing out on some aspects of the game because I just wasn't seeing any guild recruiting messages that "clicked" with me.

Now, I'm an Officer in the Guild I did join, helping less experienced (though some with more CP than me) players learn the ropes for Vet Dungeons and Pledges and starting to put together a shortlist of the players that want to put the effort into gearing, and skilling up for Trials. And in my "self time" I am gearing up and learning how to solo Vet content.

Without the Officers of my guild to show me the ropes I wouldn't be able to pass that along. No, I'm not an expert yet, I still learn things almost every run, and there's still times we make mistakes.

If experienced player CBA to pass on the knowledge they have, they have no one to blame but themselves if the newly minted CP160 players don't know what do to.

All The Best

It is the role of the player first to take some kind of initiative in improving their skill. It is the role of experienced players second

I honestly see 0 negatives in having a system op is suggesting. Those who know what to do can play with others and those that don't have a way to learn. This game does a poor job on teaching people. It is pretty much entirely up to all the players to figure things out themselves and to help others.

The game could really benefit from a proving ground with an advanced tutorial in it. Explaining buffs, debuffs, rotations, etc.

The only possible negative I could possibly see from certain people is them not being able to be carried through everything anymore. Atleast not by randoms anyways. And that isn't really a negative to the majority who don't expect others to carry them through content.

The game could indeed benefit from it at some point.. But it should not be a forced upon players to let them into dungeons.. Let it be something they can go into if they so wish

As always, a new system could bring as much bad stuff as positive.. Some players might be scared away from dungeons in general by such a system

Dragath · April 2017

there is an easy solution:
want to play together with people that share your values and how you want to play?
go and find them. guilds, friends and so on.
should be no surprise at all, that random players might not share your values and knowledge. nobody is forcing you to play with them.
using a tool that will group you with them is your own fault.
staying with them the whole dungeon is your decision.
random groups with random people don't owe you anything, so don't expect anything from them.
i can certainly understand that it is frustrating to carry a group of people that don't know how to play, but you do that to yourself, if you choose to play with random people.

zaria · April 2017

ofSunhold wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

uzbachchi wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Meanwhile, they might ask themselves why so many MMO players prefer to solo these days rather than find themselves the butt of scorn and derision because they just want to play a game and not be bothered with all the elitist stuff that dominates a lot of the group agenda.

Basically this. I haven't started group content yet at CP367 and it's mainly because of the scornful, derisive threads I read on here. They don't do anything to encourage me to try it, rather they discourage even thinking about it.

I think this is totally unfair.

Yes there are people in the game that will scorn and ridicule people for not playing min-max builds, and those people are rude. But to suggest that someone on the forums saying a Proving Ground to test and help people improve prior to queueing for group content (which would help them avoid that scorn) are the same and scornful and ridiculing people is really not right.

No one was scorning anyone. No one was ridiculing anyone. All I suggested was that a training/proving ground to help people learn how to play better and set a minimum level challenge to enter group content would be beneficial to the game experience.

I agree with you, and in fact this would address the "I'm afraid to queue for dungeons" problem just as much as the "zomg these pugs know nothing at all" problem. The game needs to give people more information - this sink-or-swim policy sucks for everybody.

The game is more fun when people know what the hell is going on. The game is more fun when people are, and know they are, competent.

It's fantastic if people go research dungeons and builds, it's great if vet players are willing to teach, but there NEEDS to be a basic level of information provided by the game itself. Tutorials that actually explain things aren't so much to ask for, and since there's nothing at all for dungeons right now, that's where they could start. (And then for the love of god do something about the Alliance War tutorial, which is nearly information-free.)

Totally agree, the game does not teach basic rotation as in dots then spam until dot time out and repeat.
You have the cp600 light attack brigade who is just sad.

And as other say normal dungeons are easy, the dlc is a bit below easy vet ones who is perfect people did an progression, suck for an lvl 20 in imperial city prison who is another issue.

But it make it easy to carry players, I do normal dungeons for pugs outside the easy ones.
See some weird stuff. Healer in normal, all was in range so i double tap mutagen while tank dropped on boss. Did the usual stuff, combat prayer, the dd rotation including shards, weird that it was no AoE on boss outside my own, combat metric showed that my 9k dps was 75% of damage. DD was out of range for some reason but was in range just before we hit boss.

KCLucky · April 2017

I wish this game would implement something like the Mentor system in FF14. New players are put into a "new" status until they reach a certain level or content completion. Mentors are required to be max rank in crafting, pvp, or have 300 dungeons completed at max level. A Mentor gets extra rewards for completing dungeons with new groups in exchange for them taking the time to guide the new players through.

One thing that people who keep brining up other games are forgetting is that in most MMOs, your skills, armor class and weapon types are the same on a given class always. It's pretty much impossible to queue as a tank and have half light, half heavy armor with Bow/Bow and no taunt. You have to make a deliberate effort to be that awful at your role. ESO's openness lends to a whole order more of clueless players.

I play on PS4 and I used to type in chat to almost every group asking about experience level(if they're not all Ophidian Overlords or something) so I could give help if necessary. No exaggeration, I got a replay maybe 1 in 15. Not anymore. It's a huge waste of time and you can't help people that won't take it.

To all you defenders of clueless players, these people are knowingly going into group content after playing sometimes dozens of hours and it's ridiculous to expect that they maybe took 15 minutes to prepare for the content? I think not. I have literally never seen an MMO:s community(I've played a lot of them) have so many people with this stance.

@Tholian1, see the problem is that commonly the rhetoric is that we expect everyone to be at a pro level, when all that is being asked is the right armor sets and weapons for your role, and a very basic knowledge of how to perform it. That doesn't take hours of streams, and is only brought up by the people that are so overzealous to be "anti-elitist" that they twist the discussion. If more people advocated others learning basics then maybe the problem would be diminished a lot. Literally no one joins GF and expects to get the No Death and Speedrun achievements, but having a reasonable chance at completing the dungeon is expected. There is no way in hell ZOS thinks that it's okay that their player base is telling others to stop using GF at all and "you should expect that you'll play with completely clueless players". I only fail to complete my dungeons 10 or 20% of the time in GF so the vast majority of the community does have a clue. I straight up leave if the group is looking like we won't be able to finish or it's going to take more than an hour by the first boss and no one is talking. If people come on comms then I'll stay for however long it takes.

raglau · April 2017

The normal mode dungeons are very easy, but the vets could certainly do with a flag that the player in question has completed the particular dungeon on normal, before being permitted entry to the vet version. It's surprising how many people queue for a vet dungeon and don't know mechanics, I'd have thought it plain common sense that everyone tried out the normal version first, but seemingly not.

I will often give tips on mechanics for normals, as I did just now for some people in nCoS for their first run, but by vet they should know it or not be queuing. I'm certainly not going to give tips on play style, that's a very personal matter for each of us to work out.

I don't expect the best in a PUG, but will leave a really weak one. As a tank I can find another group easily enough.

Anlaemar · April 2017

Idea is interesting.

Adding in some kind of role academy/tutorial would point newer players in the right direction of what roles do. However, making it a requirement I don't agree with.

Every player here at one point went into a dungeon without ever running it before. You probably died unless you were being carried or you got lucky (shout-out to Praxin the Pug Slayer). The best advice I can give is to join a guild, make some friends, and run with people you know can do the content. I'm not an outgoing person, but I have two guilds that pull people in for normal trails on a daily basis with no signups and people group for HM Pledges throughout the day.

Like you, most of the time I got stuck with a group that people didn't/couldn't do their job. Too rarely I get a random pug that everyone does everything perfectly and we go through all pledges HM no deaths. Luck of the draw with pugs.

idk · April 2017

The idea presented is just another narrow minded attempt to limit who can use the GF. What is sad is most of those who complain about getting some low level or whatever player in GF are probably carried most of the time when they clear.

If you have issues with who you get paired with in the GF then do not use it. Form your group outside the GF and you do not have to worry about it. That is why we are able to form groups without using the GF.

tinythinker · April 2017

andreasv wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

There have been suggestions for having role-specific NPC-based instances as a kind of training ground that could be offered as mini-quests where you are asked to do things, to spot what certain mechanics look like, etc, beyond what you get in the Wailing Prison. Like an NPC saying "Use a taunt on that beast" and "OK now move it over to the statue and keep it there".

Haven't seen any ZOS comments on said suggestions.

I've started a tank in FFXIV during the easter break, and when you start dungeons there an NPC will introduce you into tank tasks, e.g. how to taunt. I thought that's a nice idea for players who do dungeons in an MMO the first time.
It may end up with ESO at some point.

Yup, I play that game. The system to which you refer doesn't mean that there aren't unprepared or lazy players, but, for those who do want to learn it is a nice way to get some fundamentals. When I mentioned this idea in another thread, someone suggested it could be something done by the Undaunted. Three guided miniquests each for tanking, healing, and damage dealing. It won't give you enough to jump into the hardest vet dungeons, but, it can give you confidence to try group instances and you can learn from your own experience and the advice helpful players from there.

Many people are nervous about getting into group content and looking stupid. People complaining 24/7 as loudly as possible about pugs, scrubs, casuals, etc, doesn't help. But these role-based training quests might, at least a little.

Shadow_Viper_vX · April 2017

The only change that needs to happen is not being able to queue for Veteran Dungeons until the character has completed the normal version.

Other than that, no change needed.

Fine as is

The game definitely doesn't need some elitist skill wall...

Daemons_Bane · April 2017

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

The only change that needs to happen is not being able to queue for Veteran Dungeons until the character has completed the normal version.

Other than that, no change needed.

Fine as is

Meh, that would probably annoy the people wanting to storm through Undaunted :P

Mettaricana · April 2017

I try not to get mad at players like that but at same time i offer build advice or skill advice and get told #¥£₩ you its play how i want and i either have to vote to kick or tell em good luck getting past first boss...

I admit zos should offer a tutorial peice on healing tanking dps and what skills they should have and how to fight as one

Hallothiel · April 2017

Something similar has been suggested before -some sort of tutorial dungeon run to try out the different roles with npcs to get an idea, as pve does not teach you how to be a tank! (Still don't really have any idea as to what skill is a taunt....)

I would love it. I am still avoiding dungeons as far too nervous & fully aware that some of my characters may not be the best suited for them even with all the skills & cp - my nb for all his skills just can't seem to take on mobs easily without dying - but it would be nice to maybe try without feeling too pressured.

It could be voluntary & would also help those who are not good with text or voice chat or don't have a guild.

And I also agree with the poster above about watching videos on what to do - they are never very clear and can be quite dull & nothing matches up to actually playing. And it makes something that is supposed to be fun far too much like a research project!

That said, I at least know to use more than just spam light attacks.....