ESO needs Proving Grounds for dungeon entry.

leepalmer95

I'd like this idea, only for 'challenging' content such as vet dungeons, vet dsa, vet trials etc...

This is kind of similar to an idea i had of 'advanced' tutorials. This game has a real lack of information actually built into the game. After the initial tutorial how many people actually learn of the more detailed stuff? I still see people a few hundred cp into that don't know stamina skills scale of max stamina and weapon dmg. Most people don't even realise the stats help dmg.

You can play the game how you wan't but when you come to a certain point in pve, e.g. the challenging ones then you have to actually learn and get better in order to complete it.

idk

dday3six wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

The idea presented is just another narrow minded attempt to limit who can use the GF. What is sad is most of those who complain about getting some low level or whatever player in GF are probably carried most of the time when they clear.

If you have issues with who you get paired with in the GF then do not use it. Form your group outside the GF and you do not have to worry about it. That is why we are able to form groups without using the GF.

Yep you're a shining example of the attitude that will choke the life out of this game...

Something's broke, oh well don't use it. Just ignore the issue and you've got no problem. Oh, don't forget to insult the credibility of those saying there's a problem too.

@dday3six

Your comment is humorous.

I queue for randoms often and most of the time it's for vet. I am usually the healer or tank. Only 3 times have I been in a group that didn't clear.

GF is not broken in this way. It works as it should. If players want more specific groups that GF is guaranteed to put together they should form up their group first. It's rather easy to do if it's for a pledge.

But thx for the humor regardless.

dday3six

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

The idea presented is just another narrow minded attempt to limit who can use the GF. What is sad is most of those who complain about getting some low level or whatever player in GF are probably carried most of the time when they clear.

If you have issues with who you get paired with in the GF then do not use it. Form your group outside the GF and you do not have to worry about it. That is why we are able to form groups without using the GF.

Yep you're a shining example of the attitude that will choke the life out of this game...

Something's broke, oh well don't use it. Just ignore the issue and you've got no problem. Oh, don't forget to insult the credibility of those saying there's a problem too.

Your comment is humorous.

I queue for randoms often and most of the time it's for vet. I am usually the healer or tank. Only 3 times have I been in a group that didn't clear.

GF is not broken in this way. It works as it should. If players want more specific groups that GF is guaranteed to put together they should form up their group first. It's rather easy to do if it's for a pledge.

But thx for the humor regardless.

Your personal experience is not universal, it's anecdotal. I also never said it was directly the GF that is the issue. The underlining issue is one of unpreparedness with the game not providing the best explanation or roles and rotations for instance. However ignoring that groups in the GF struggle is also ignoring the associated issue.

Danksta

Phinix1 wrote: »

Last night I healed a group where the tank was always the last to run in and never taunted anything, one DPS was light attacking with ice staff only, and the other was spamming Acid Spray over and over. None of these people would have ever been able to queue for a dungeon with that level of competence in group play if there were some training prerequisite and skill barrier to entry like WoW offers with the Proving Grounds.

It would also be a great place for ZOS to offer people build pointers and suggestions to improve their playstyle. Things like "always put down an AOE of some kind before relying on any one skill," or how to weave attacks, etc. Having it clearly illustrated as "a better way" would help things "click" for people.

I realize not everyone has time to Google optimal builds but really they don't have to. So long as they are willing to adapt their play style to suit what they are doing, understanding that when you choose to join a group there are several other people relying on you to complete the task. You may not have time to Google builds, but some people only have a couple hours at a time to play, so it is always nice not to spend that time wiping.

A Proving Ground would ensure that people learn the basic skills and techniques that are needed not to be top DPS, but to be at least more of an asset then a liability to any group.

I think the best way to do it would be to have a group of 3 NPC's with you filling the roles of whatever you were not. So tank healers and another DPS if you were in DPS mode, 2 DPS and a healer if you were practicing tank, etc.

These NPC's would talk to you, give you advise, explain mechanics, and help you optimize your play style for whatever mode you were training. Being ESO I am sure they could make these's NPC's totally memorable.

EDIT: Sorry for the previous wording. It was unnecessarily terse and probably came off condescending. I was in a really bad mood this morning and probably should have waited to post.

I've seen similar suggestions in the past and I agree that ZoS should do something to teach people to play their game. The main reason I think they won't do anything to do that is it goes against their "play how you want" mantra.

idk

dday3six wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

The idea presented is just another narrow minded attempt to limit who can use the GF. What is sad is most of those who complain about getting some low level or whatever player in GF are probably carried most of the time when they clear.

If you have issues with who you get paired with in the GF then do not use it. Form your group outside the GF and you do not have to worry about it. That is why we are able to form groups without using the GF.

Yep you're a shining example of the attitude that will choke the life out of this game...

Something's broke, oh well don't use it. Just ignore the issue and you've got no problem. Oh, don't forget to insult the credibility of those saying there's a problem too.

Your comment is humorous.

I queue for randoms often and most of the time it's for vet. I am usually the healer or tank. Only 3 times have I been in a group that didn't clear.

GF is not broken in this way. It works as it should. If players want more specific groups that GF is guaranteed to put together they should form up their group first. It's rather easy to do if it's for a pledge.

But thx for the humor regardless.

Your personal experience is not universal, it's anecdotal. I also never said it was directly the GF that is the issue. The underlining issue is one of unpreparedness with the game not providing the best explanation or roles and rotations for instance. However ignoring that groups in the GF struggle is also ignoring the associated issue.

It's an interesting reply since the same can be said about the experience you are explaining is anecdotal. Funny how that works.

dday3six

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

The idea presented is just another narrow minded attempt to limit who can use the GF. What is sad is most of those who complain about getting some low level or whatever player in GF are probably carried most of the time when they clear.

If you have issues with who you get paired with in the GF then do not use it. Form your group outside the GF and you do not have to worry about it. That is why we are able to form groups without using the GF.

Yep you're a shining example of the attitude that will choke the life out of this game...

Something's broke, oh well don't use it. Just ignore the issue and you've got no problem. Oh, don't forget to insult the credibility of those saying there's a problem too.

Your comment is humorous.

I queue for randoms often and most of the time it's for vet. I am usually the healer or tank. Only 3 times have I been in a group that didn't clear.

GF is not broken in this way. It works as it should. If players want more specific groups that GF is guaranteed to put together they should form up their group first. It's rather easy to do if it's for a pledge.

But thx for the humor regardless.

Your personal experience is not universal, it's anecdotal. I also never said it was directly the GF that is the issue. The underlining issue is one of unpreparedness with the game not providing the best explanation or roles and rotations for instance. However ignoring that groups in the GF struggle is also ignoring the associated issue.

It's an interesting reply since the same can be said about the experience you are explaining is anecdotal. Funny how that works.

That works if I was arguing the antithesis to your point. My GF experience vs your own, but I'm not doing that. I'm stating the anecdotal nature of submitting your personal experiences as evidence of fact. Then clarifying my position that issues arising with the group finder are not directly related to the GF's function but rather a lacking of proper mechanisms within the game to prepare players for forays in dungeons.

There again with this laxidasical attitude of ignore and attempt to invalidate, that's an ever present affair.

SquareSausage

Play how you want has a lot to answer for, entirely evident by the number of people here and also in this very thread who seemingly encourage people to be lazy and rely on others for a carry through group content. Demanding other players teach these lazy players how to play.

Its simple, in group content, if you sign for a role, play how you want should go out the window. If you queue for a group you should be prepared to fill that role. A proving ground, or even a more in depth tutorial should be a requirement on each character to pass to allow them to queue for that role, it could be linked to the undaunted, and give you undaunted skill progression. After your first interaction with Mr Axe of the undaunted he could give you a quest there and then to ready you for the opening of dungeon delving in a group environment.

LadyNalcarya

I think they could just add more info about roles (taunt mechanics, etc) and lock all veteran versions until you finish normals (only for random group finder groups of course). Simply because new players are very unlikely to finish vet dungeons with group finder pugs.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Proving grounds sound good, it's certainly NOT up to the experienced players to help teach. Thats what youtube is for. Why should I waste my game time telling someone how to do their job when I just wanna play and have my own fun?

Ojustaboo

KCLucky wrote: »

I wish this game would implement something like the Mentor system in FF14. New players are put into a "new" status until they reach a certain level or content completion. Mentors are required to be max rank in crafting, pvp, or have 300 dungeons completed at max level. A Mentor gets extra rewards for completing dungeons with new groups in exchange for them taking the time to guide the new players through.

Thing is, there's many different ways of playing ESO. I've been playing since beta but have rarely ran group dungeons. Crafting is almost maxed (a couple of things still to go), cp maxed, done every quest in my own faction and a fair few in others.

Then there's a good friend of mine, she doesn't like pve much, only runs dungeons when she wants particular gear for PvP.

Max crafting just requires months of time and zero skill.

Would we both be considered new? I presume not, and as I've often said, I know zero about the mechanics of most group dungeons

dethbl00ms wrote: »

I've been playing since beta and ESO is my first MMO. I've been through a lot of PUG (Pick-up Game) dungeon groups and this is my process:

First I check my guilds to see if anyone wants to run the dungeon. I try to build/join groups out of guilds because I know people in my trials guilds know their roles. (understanding your class & role > understanding mechanics)

If no one in guild is available I check zone chat for high CP players LFG. I look for high CP players because high CP players should know what they're doing. Should.

If chat isn't responsive for whatever reason I que for the dungeon. If it's a DLC dungeon I only que for normal. PUG groups just don't make it through the DLC vet dungeons in a reasonable amount of time (an hour or less is reasonable for me for PUG groups). If it's non-DLC I might que for vet, but only if I believe I can carry the group if people derp out.

When I join the group I say "hi" in group chat. This is important because if the group isn't communicating, you can expect to disband at the first sign of trouble.

Then I wait before each mob for the group to get there, because someone might be doing the quest or changing skills or gear or eating or screaming at their kid or whatever. It's a PUG group so I don't expect them to sprint through mobs.

If we encounter problems I talk to my group members and try to help whoever is struggling. After about 5 wipes (maybe more if they're nice) and no improvement I tell them I'm sorry, but I have to go. After that many group deaths we're likely dealing with an issue that won't be fixed that run, like a bad rotation, not understanding a role or the mechanics themselves.

But most of the time if everyone communicates and is nice to each other we make it through ok. Sometimes it's bad... sometimes it's surprisingly good. More often it's bad. But communication and civility helps.


The problem has three solutions, each of which will make queueing for dungeons better for everyone:

1. Players who are inexperienced should do a little homework on their build, role and the dungeon before they que up for vet anything. You don't need to be an expert or have the meta build. Just have a good idea of what you're going to do and how effective it is for the content you're about to tackle. Check out Deltia' site or just google what you want to learn if you don't know where to start (this is what I had to do to get through vet content). Definitely know what you're doing before trying the DLC dungeons or Trials - they are harder than the other vets.

2. Experienced players should be considerate of less-experienced players in dungeons. Don't use all caps. "HEAL HEALER!", "TAUNT TANK!", "DO DAMAGE DPS!" are examples of vague and condescending things you should avoid spamming in group chat (YOU might actually get kicked for this). Don't sprint through the mobs unless you know the people and they don't mind. Wait for the group. If they're screwing around too much tell them you don't have time to waste and leave the group. Say something before you leave the group (unless they're jerks). Try not to be that guy that just quits. We don't like that guy. Help out if you can. Be nice. And before you point the finger at someone else, check yourself to make sure you're actually doing what you're supposed to be. Don't get cocky.

3. Getting to the OP's idea, yes ZOS can and should absolutely create a system that teaches players their roles before attempting dungeons. I also agree that some system should be in place to ensure they're ready for vet content before queuing for that. It used to be vet ranks and CP, but these days when any dummy can grind sky reach with ambrosia and a high level carry, CP just isn't an indicator of skill. We need something else there... maybe not proving grounds or something you can just cheese your way through... but something that indicates who knows how to tank, heal and dps and at what level of proficiency... something they can't just toggle on because they're tired of waiting on a group. That would not only help PUG dungeon groups, but also Trial and Vet Trial guilds. Training dummies are nice, but we need something more to certify people for these roles, without turning game-time into work-time for guild officers and mentors. It's certainly worth getting bumped up on ZOS' to-do list.


No one should be afraid to do dungeons in ESO. Anyone can do normal dungeons. Anyone can do vet content too, but you may have to work for it. Don't let that stop you.

Interestingly (to me anyway) I was always useless at PvP, could never win a 1v1 fight no matter how many more CP I had.

A friend in my guild wanted to improve her skills and asked me how I felt about becoming dueling partners.

I agreed. At first we were both pretty useless (me far worse than her) but it allowed us to try different skills, see how each off them affect the other person. Often we would start the duel with no intention of fighting, instead one of us healing them self while the other tries out a particular skill or rotation so we had the time to fully understand what's happening. Or one of us might practice blocking etc.

Role on a few months and I now for example, keep my shields up without thinking about it.

Now in PvP in 1v1, sometimes I win, sometimes I loose, sometimes two enemies jump me and they both end up dead. This never happened until I took the time to learn what I was doing and how my skills worked together. I had read loads of best build/best rotations in the past, but I still failed as I still wasn't really sure how each skill worked or if I was executing the skill properly etc.

Now the game is much more interesting and fun for me whether in PvP or PvE, I still have a lot to learn and I still need to improve my DPS and I am no where near a very good player yet, but, with the effort I put in to learn, I am 10000 times better than I was 6 months ago.

While training dummies are useful in some ways, I would never have learned what I learned from dueling with a dueling partner.

Dantaria

The amount of naive blindness in this thread is astounding. I'm talking about people who got enraged and tried to rip OP's head off. *gives hugs to OP*

"I play how I want", "ESO is a game, not a job", "I don't have time to research builds"... So. Much. Egoism.

You are wrong for a one very simple reason: the dungeons in game have direct and indirect DPS checks. That's it. Finish. End of the line.

Your "play how you want" goes straight out the window in City of Ash II, Banished Cells II, Direfrost Keep... Yes, yes, even on normal. And you indeed are. Wasting. Other. Peoples'. Time. Not because "OP wants the elitistic speedrun" like @Gandrhulf_Harbard pulled out of thin air. But simply because the dungeon cannot be completed without certain amount of DPS.

Good luck with even normal CoAII, @Gandrhulf_Harbard, when you, as a tank, get:

one DPS was light attacking with ice staff only, and the other was spamming Acid Spray over and over

Spoilers alert: you won't complete it.

Good luck drowing in the ocean of daedroths in BCII on the last boss. Good luck wiping over and over and over again on the giant netch in Darkshade Caverns II, because your DDs have no clue what AoE is.

"Play how you want" and "DPS checks" cannot possibly coexist. So either we nerf all the content into the ground or... Or we have some system which let people know if they are actually ready for the content.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Dantaria wrote: »

Good luck with even normal CoAII, @Gandrhulf_Harbard, when you, as a tank, get:

one DPS was light attacking with ice staff only, and the other was spamming Acid Spray over and over

Spoilers alert: you won't complete it.

Completed it last night, Veteran Hardmode, and I still "play how I want to play". For three of us it was out first time on Vet, for me it was only my 2nd time in the instance. We wiped a few times, but after every wipe we got closer and closer to downing him. We learned as we did it, and got through it. Because the one guy that knew how to do it was willing to explain it to us, and after a wipe give advice (collectively) on how we could do better.

And before that we did BCII and got the Cursed Hero achievement, in fact we deliberately avoided killing his Feast, so we could keep him alive for a third Daedroth to spawn, and then we took him down at the moment we chose. Got Banished Cells II Survivor on the same run - all playing "how I want to play".

Oh speaking of the netch boss - all I need to find now is some way so that self confessed "try hards" actually hit the adds when Grubull the Transmuted is shielded in DCII, rather than wasting DPS and everyone else's time by still targeting the boss.

Dantaria wrote: »

"Play how you want" and "DPS checks" cannot possibly coexist.

Yes, they can you just need to git gud at playing how you want to play. That's what I did.

All The Best

Daemons_Bane

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Proving grounds sound good, it's certainly NOT up to the experienced players to help teach. Thats what youtube is for. Why should I waste my game time telling someone how to do their job when I just wanna play and have my own fun?

Turn it around.. Why should they spend time on youtube, when they just wanna play and have their own fun?

Aevric

Don't join PUGs or use the dungeon finder if you want proficient groups.
Problem solved.
You have 5 guild slots. Utilize them.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Proving grounds sound good, it's certainly NOT up to the experienced players to help teach. Thats what youtube is for. Why should I waste my game time telling someone how to do their job when I just wanna play and have my own fun?

You learn how to play the game by... ...well it is rather shocking... ...you may to sit down for this bit... ...actually playing the game.

Watching how SOMEONE ELSE plays the game teaches me almost nothing about how I play the game - unless of course you think that for any class/role combination there is ONLY one gear setup, one skill rotation, one skill bar allocation.

Let me explain - if you are prepared to "learn as you play" and figure out what works FOR YOU then there isn't just one way to play, there are loads.

All The Best