WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

willlienellson · February 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

OMG DID HE JUST DESCRIBE THE PROCESS OF INTERNAL TESTING?!?!?!?

Dude come down from your high horse, that is how testing, internal testing, QA and so on goes. And that is how it should be.

Some people are just video game addicts that will accept any unethical behavior as long as it exists inside a video game industry.

People get mad at Tax Preparing companies (Turbo Tax, etc) because they lobby the government to keep taxes complex. That is seen as improper and unethical by most people.

Here we have people who are lobbying the developers to make changes to the game and then earn money from viewers and in some cases charge hundreds of dollars to individuals to teach them how to master said changes to excel at the game.

It's not how it should be. Not at all. Perhaps these individuals are not lobbying for more complexity, special synergies, and mechanics they feel they can exploit. Perhaps not. But in most of the 'normal adult world' the "appearance of impropriety" is itself a problem. That the improper thing could be taking place is enough of a problem.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

The thing is, you cannot prove it's true here (and for the sake of the discussion I don't want to take it private via PM), and I can't prove it isn't true. In my opinion it's just a construed "conspiracy theory".

"I haven't seen proof and I don't want to see proof so I can continue to believe it's false"
lmao. Thanks for that.

notimetocare wrote: »

Unlike most players, streamers have financial incentive not to muck up the game

That's naive. Explained why in this post.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3788300/#Comment_3788300

SaRuZ · February 2017

Has anyone considered they take feedback from all sources? The forums isn't exaclty a peachy place to sit and brainstorm ideas over some starbucks. The last 21 pages of this thread proved this.

On that note, I think OP had the banhammer dropped on him so let's allow this thread to die. I am exhausted after reading it, as entertaining as it was.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · February 2017

SaRuZ wrote: »

Has anyone considered they take feedback from all sources? The forums isn't exaclty a peachy place to sit and brainstorm ideas over some starbucks. The last 21 pages of this thread proved this.

On that note, I think OP had the banhammer dropped on him so let's allow this thread to die. I am exhausted after reading it, as entertaining as it was.

Is questioning the integrity of input sources for game balance a ban-able offence now?

SaRuZ · February 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

SaRuZ wrote: »

Has anyone considered they take feedback from all sources? The forums isn't exaclty a peachy place to sit and brainstorm ideas over some starbucks. The last 21 pages of this thread proved this.

On that note, I think OP had the banhammer dropped on him so let's allow this thread to die. I am exhausted after reading it, as entertaining as it was.

Is questioning the integrity of input sources for game balance a ban-able offence now?

I really hope not but with all the stuff we say on these forums, I highly doubt it. The guy seemed to be quite heated over the entire ordeal and may have sent private messages that weren't so nice or carried his vendetta to a seperate thread. Or he may not be banned? His icon has bars on it?

willlienellson · February 2017

SaRuZ wrote: »

Has anyone considered they take feedback from all sources? The forums isn't exaclty a peachy place to sit and brainstorm ideas over some starbucks. The last 21 pages of this thread proved this.

Fair point. It's a pretty horrible thread. And the forum is filled with tons of other horrible threads by unsatisfied customers that are upset by either cheating they are tired of being told doesn't exist or bought housing that doesn't function or offer value in spite of reams of feedback warning of this in the PTS threads. Oh, and the Morrowind DLC expansion.

Maybe if Zos actually did something with the "feedback from all sources" then the tone across the forums would be better.

Did you know I had a thread in the PTS forums that had like 200 agrees and not hardly a single person with a contrary viewpoint, representing WIDE CONSENSUS on some very simple but glaring problems with easy fixes on Homestead that was up for almost 30 days and Zos never responded. It was a super respectful and professional OP by the way, you can still check it out.

Meanwhile some of the streamers that "geaked out" on Homestead finding almost no flaws but just awesomeness (his words in quotes, not mine) is giving extra feedback at headquarters while all the simple issues the PTS testers warned Zos about for 30 days have evolved into complaints in the general forums by customers.

So, that's the reality, and just something to consider when you reflect on the "tone" of the forums.

SaRuZ wrote: »

I really hope not but with all the stuff we say on these forums, I highly doubt it. The guy seemed to be quite heated over the entire ordeal and may have sent private messages that weren't so nice or carried his vendetta to a seperate thread. Or he may not be banned? His icon has bars on it?

Thanks, not banned yet afaik, but lets just say the post you read wasn't the original version. It may be unclassified, but it remains heavily redacted

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2017

SaRuZ wrote: »

I really hope not but with all the stuff we say on these forums, I highly doubt it. The guy seemed to be quite heated over the entire ordeal and may have sent private messages that weren't so nice or carried his vendetta to a seperate thread. Or he may not be banned? His icon has bars on it?

He posted 20 minutes ago, so obviously he's not banned, and why would he ? Expressing concerns is not bannable.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · February 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SaRuZ wrote: »

I really hope not but with all the stuff we say on these forums, I highly doubt it. The guy seemed to be quite heated over the entire ordeal and may have sent private messages that weren't so nice or carried his vendetta to a seperate thread. Or he may not be banned? His icon has bars on it?

He posted 20 minutes ago, so obviously he's not banned, and why would he ? Expressing concerns is not bannable.

Some people seem to think anyone that disagrees with them should be banned. I have no idea why this latest generation is so allergic to people with opinions different than their own.

hamgatan · February 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SaRuZ wrote: »

I really hope not but with all the stuff we say on these forums, I highly doubt it. The guy seemed to be quite heated over the entire ordeal and may have sent private messages that weren't so nice or carried his vendetta to a seperate thread. Or he may not be banned? His icon has bars on it?

He posted 20 minutes ago, so obviously he's not banned, and why would he ? Expressing concerns is not bannable.

Some people seem to think anyone that disagrees with them should be banned. I have no idea why this latest generation is so allergic to people with opinions different than their own.

Because as families have changed over the generations, they no longer comprise of 12 siblings (unless they live in the Ozarks). They've grown up as over protected, over spoiled consumerist princesses that are the center of attention and so their shift of view on the family unit isnt one of equality amongst all, but what can the rest of its members do for them. No isnt a word they are used to hearing because parents got soft and bought into all this new age crap of modern parenting styles and gave them almost anything they wanted as it was the easy way out.. and so began the memememememe generation..

Mwnci · February 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Some people seem to think anyone that disagrees with them should be banned. I have no idea why this latest generation is so allergic to people with opinions different than their own.

Weak parenting thanks to over-protective individuals, who can't differentiate between a smack on the bum and abuse, that instituted equally over-protective laws and regulations that ultimately raised a generation of people suffering from arrogant egotism because they were never taught mutual-respect?

Or!

It's the internet, anonymity makes people brave (and stupid), and nobody likes having their opinions challenged.

First is a contentious subject, second is more likely.

Fudly_budly · February 2017

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello everyone,

We recently noticed that there have been some naming and shaming, insulting comments and even mentions of real-world politics. For continuation of this discussion, please be sure to keep the Forum Rules in mind, and refrain from labeling anyone as exploiters or claiming that any one persons opinion is less than your own. I'm sure we're all here to help make the game a better place for all, no need to put another person down for wanting to help do so.

Thank you for understanding.

Yaaaaaaay! Zos posted on one of your threads! Grats man! Check off that Bucket list! Woot! Woot!

Soul_Demon · February 2017

Whatever you do Willie keep this discussion going.

Your viewpoint is more represented with the current players of the game than may appear at first glance. As mentioned the streamers all have financial incentive pushing what they do with claims of 'looking out for the players' being thrown around now an then to keep attention off what is happening.

What is important to remember is more often than not people simply don't comment or rabidly fanboi behind threads like this because as thinking individuals, they take it as self evident those players do not represent the majority of the players in the game. Since ZOS started paying attention to these players, the original number of player base has died off significantly. I do hope they take every supportive post here and multiply it by 10, because that is how many agree with your statements and simply see them as so obviously true there shouldn't be a need to comment.

willlienellson · February 2017

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Whatever you do Willie keep this discussion going.

I think this thread deserves a SUMMARY:

WHAT WE KNOW:
- This is officially not a marketing exercise. It may still be motivated by marketing, but it's officially all about game balance, mechanic tweeking, theorycrafting, number crunching, math using, development.
- It was not only streamers/youtubers. It included other people who Zos felt could help with the goal.

MY ISSUE:
- Elite gamers that aren't playing for fun, but rather for profit, who both make money off viewers and in some cases charge hundreds of dollars to individuals to teach them how to cross a power gap and exploit the variables in the game to become elite players....should not be included in the development process that defines those variables and creates that power gap.

CAVEATS:
- That doesn't mean I think they are necessarily guilty of trying to imbalance the game. But they do have a vested financial interest in doing so. It is the appearance of impropriety that should be enough to exclude them.
- That doesn't mean I don't think streamers/youtubers/teaching services are bad or shouldn't exist. I have no problem with someone paying $400 to learn how to play the game. I have no problem with a streamer getting a million viewers and becoming wealthy from videos of playing the game. I only have a problem with them being included in the development process.
- That doesn't mean I think Zos shouldn't have had the event or get expert feedback. Not all experts have the same motivations. There is word for experts that give testimony and analysis while they have a financial stake to gain: Lobbyists.

NOTES:
- It's also worth noting, that even without the impropriety, it's also kind of crappy how mountains of feedback (sometimes with broad consensus) have been ignored forever, while things like this go on.

REBUTTALS:
1) "Why are you so jealous bro"? (most common)
2) "Why are you so salty bro"? (common)
3) "These streamers/tubers understand the best and are the best suited to balance the game (rare)

REPLY TO #3:
They may have the most knowledge of the subject, but that doesn't make them the best to balance the game.
I'm reminded of a hilarious Woody Harrelson quote from the movie Kingpin on the subject of smoking.

Ishmael: "You really should try to quit, Mr. Munson. They say it's bad for your heart, your lungs. It quickens the aging process".

Roy: "Is that right? Who's done more research on the subject than the good people at the American Tobacco Industry? They say it's harmless. Why would they lie? If you're dead, you can't smoke".

LOL. That joke is making fun of the failed logic behind the argument that we benefit from these guys having undue influence over the development of the game, just because they know the most about it.

Dredlord · February 2017

MissBizz wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Oooh the "It's ok because capitalism" argument. I love that one! My turn!

In 1984, the company Bayer realized that a lot of their blood products, (Factor VIII and IX anti-hemophiliac compounds), were contaminated with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). However, the financial investment in the product was considered too high to destroy the inventory. So Bayer misrepresented the results of its own research and sold the contaminated Blood Products to overseas markets in Asia and Latin America without the precaution of heat treating the product recommended for eliminating the risk. As a consequence, hemophiliacs who infused the HIV-contaminated products tested positive for HIV and developed AIDS.

It's just a business people, relax!

A video game and blood used to save someone's life that gives them a life threatening illness are not on the same level. At. All.

I guess you have never taken an ethics class?

That is one of the ethical tests, apply the same concept to a situation with much higher stakes. Then it is much easier for even the most uneducated to see if something is wrong or not.

Rickter · March 2017

i completely agree with the OP. I decided to rez this thread because it came up in another.

there is a long standing, decrepit, delusional and most importantly: SMALL GROUP of pvp elite who have become jaded with large group playstyle in cyrodiil. They have convinced themselves that running in large groups shows no skill (which is probably truthful) but really its because their egos caused them to break away from egotistical large group raid leaders. These same individuals are the most vocal on forums, many of them are streamers and many of them occupy the Council of PvPers who have a direct line to ZOS. Because of their exposure, they are able to portray ESO pvp as something its not: that you will get the most fulfillment from ESO pvp (whether that be proof of skill, reknown or respect/street cred) by participating and showcasing small group play of groups 4 and under.

We've seen it all over this forum. We've seen the rampant promotion of this concept that ESO should be in groups of 8 and under. ESO was never advertised as this, in fact it was advertised as the complete opposite from day one. But because these celebrity streamers and long time pvp elite keep brainwashing and flooding the forums with their OPINION of how eso pvp should be and the devs are listening and you see it over and over where changes are made to discourage large groups!!

there is a thread about how zos shouldnt listen to streamers and this is why. And this is also why everything gets called a zerg even when completely out of context. LABELING the group that just steam rolled you with superior numbers as a "zerg" is demeaning, and dismissive which only serves to selfishly protect their egos.

now i understand that ZOS should also not take opinions from completely randoms, however, if they are going to listen to these celebrities, they need to take it with a grain of salt. We've seen a lot of changes to the game discouraging large groups most notably the increase in damage from siege which was made pointless by CP.

I know it looks like im condemning the elite pvp but its because they arent being responsible as players with that kind of influence.

[Deleted User] · March 2017

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Kodrac · March 2017

This is still a thing? The "event" is over, can you just let it die?

Turelus · March 2017

Yeah, don't bump this it's old news.

The current rage of the week is NA server outage.

Rickter · March 2017

next time i'd like to know how and what i should comment on on the forums, i'll come ask you guys.

the fact that you three seem to think you can tell me what to post and where to post is a little disturbing. its like, entitlement. . .

CyrusArya · March 2017

@Rickter

Despite the contempt I have for zerg players, they have a place in the game. But theirs isn't the only place. This isn't a 'zerg game' nor is it solely for large scale PvP. It's an open world sandbox and every play style should have a place. You're honestly looking too far into things and making some sweeping generalizations, just like the tin foil hat author of this thread. Fulfillment is a subjective thing, but I promise you most small scalers promote that play style not for 'street cred' but because it is intense, fun, and challenging. Whereas as running around spamming aoes while being carried by numbers is not.

What exactly are you afraid of? That they are gonna make zerging harder? lmao. Rest assured, no mechanical advantage will ever be more powerful than the sheer force of numbers.

DMuehlhausen · March 2017

It's the same problem as professional sports teams. When they talk about "polling" fans. They are only talking to season ticket holders really. Which is such a small percentage (probably not even 1 million people) across all 4 leagues. Their view and desires are vastly different than somebody like myself who only gets to go to a game here or there and has to watch the rest out of market on TV

gard · March 2017

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

Lmao i cant believe someone even said this lol ZOS definitley does not listen to streamers they definitely listen to casual players players WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY before they even listen to elite gamers. Zis cares about elite players like .00000000000000000001 percent like we barely matter at all

Those who refer to themselves as elite players probably aren't.

Rickter · March 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

@Rickter

Despite the contempt I have for zerg players, they have a place in the game. But theirs isn't the only place. This isn't a 'zerg game' nor is it solely for large scale PvP. It's an open world sandbox and every play style should have a place. You're honestly looking too far into things and making some sweeping generalizations, just like the tin foil hat author of this thread. Fulfillment is a subjective thing, but I promise you most small scalers promote that play style not for 'street cred' but because it is intense, fun, and challenging. Whereas as running around spamming aoes while being carried by numbers is not.

What exactly are you afraid of? That they are gonna make zerging harder? lmao. Rest assured, no mechanical advantage will ever be more powerful than the sheer force of numbers.

no one was saying that ALL playstyles should not be accommodated. thats not the issue. the issue is that the small scale proponents are insisting that theirs is the best way, and unfortunately they do have the ear of the developers. have you heard of hte Council of PVPers? thats actually a thing. its real. Devs play every day. they are in normal communities (well they go for the ones they heard of) and they are influenced by the players they surround themselves with. @ZOS_RichLambert runs with some really elite PVE guilds, and I fear their influence is negative for him. why? because the 1% does not represent the 99%.

Turelus · March 2017

Rickter wrote: »

next time i'd like to know how and what i should comment on on the forums, i'll come ask you guys.

the fact that you three seem to think you can tell me what to post and where to post is a little disturbing. its like, entitlement. . .

I was joking.

British humour doesn't work when one can't hear your tone of voice.

[Deleted User] · March 2017

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Rouven · March 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

next time i'd like to know how and what i should comment on on the forums, i'll come ask you guys.

the fact that you three seem to think you can tell me what to post and where to post is a little disturbing. its like, entitlement. . .

I was joking.

British humour doesn't work when one can't hear your tone of voice.

It would help if you put a reference in your signature so we know what accent we have to read your posts with!

Please add that to maximize our reading pleasure, love. (I heard british say "love" all the time, right luv?)

Hey, I think it was great what they did - inviting lot's of folk - however if it would not have been for this thread I forgot all about this already. Was there anything that came out of it so to speak that we can talk about?

idk · March 2017

Rickter wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

@Rickter

Despite the contempt I have for zerg players, they have a place in the game. But theirs isn't the only place. This isn't a 'zerg game' nor is it solely for large scale PvP. It's an open world sandbox and every play style should have a place. You're honestly looking too far into things and making some sweeping generalizations, just like the tin foil hat author of this thread. Fulfillment is a subjective thing, but I promise you most small scalers promote that play style not for 'street cred' but because it is intense, fun, and challenging. Whereas as running around spamming aoes while being carried by numbers is not.

What exactly are you afraid of? That they are gonna make zerging harder? lmao. Rest assured, no mechanical advantage will ever be more powerful than the sheer force of numbers.

no one was saying that ALL playstyles should not be accommodated. thats not the issue. the issue is that the small scale proponents are insisting that theirs is the best way, and unfortunately they do have the ear of the developers. have you heard of hte Council of PVPers? thats actually a thing. its real. Devs play every day. they are in normal communities (well they go for the ones they heard of) and they are influenced by the players they surround themselves with. @ZOS_RichLambert runs with some really elite PVE guilds, and I fear their influence is negative for him. why? because the 1% does not represent the 99%.

@Rickter

First, they didn't invite streamers. They invited theorycrafters and the like. Some of which are streamers but that's beside the point unless one wants to distract from the purpose and intent Zos had.

When it comes down to testing out mechanics your wrong. Most of us don't understand the mechanics enough to provide high level feedback needed at this stance of development.

Your comments about the devs is also highly misleading. Devs play with all sorts in our community. I even know a dev that runs with a very social guild that often takes 3 hours to clear a vet Craglorn Trial.

The devs should experience running with some strong raiding groups but they most certainly have not ignored that average player and run with all sorts of groups.

Huyen · March 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Hey man at least these streamers can spell ZeniMax right.

Oh darn. That completely refutes everything I said. Totes.
I didn't even bold the corporate name, or capitalize it in the middle. I'm so ashamed of myself.

Most popular streamers tend to play all classes, they tend to have a lot of play time in the game. They play the game at a very high level and know what they are talking about.

So why shouldn't zos bring in high end players for testing? Is that such a bad thing.

Also i capitalised ZeniMax in the middle because that is how it is.

Because the streamers only represent 1% of the total gaming-community, and they made a job out of their hobby. There is no way they go trough the same stuff everyday like a casual player like me does.

RinaldoGandolphi · March 2017

I honestly do not care who ZOS invites to their headquarters to test their game. Its their game, they can test it however they want. Its their right to invite who they want to invite.

My only issue is using players as a feedback source. Its a bad idea. Even my own feedback at times(with the exception of the Bombard meta) is bias to my own styles.

ZOS needs to go out and actually hire experienced play testers. what I mean is people that have years of experience in doing nothing but testing video games.

These people will come into the game and purposely use setups theorycrafters and ZOS never thought they would ever be used this way. These people are insanely good at mathematics, and can simply cruch numbers to find the best things, and then use ingenuity to put them together with something else no one else would have thought of.

We need unbiased opinions on how they go about things. Changes need to be based on raw data, statistics, and gameplay testing by professional testers.

The last time Microsoft invited all its Microsoft MVP to Redmond for input on the new version of Windows, they released Windows Vista....remember that ZOS....

Im not saying this is all bad, but player input has a potential to seriously backfire hard....you gotta be careful thats all.

I think ZOS picked good people to go to this event, i just don't think folks so heaviliy invested in the game are the best feedback as folks tend to develop their own biases over time...they need to hire independent people who know what they are doing to sort this out in an unbiased manner using raw data and facts, not emotion and bias

just my 2 cents.

Waseem · March 2017

ZOS should go to schools/uni/colleges/workplaces to ask each player what is best to do

willlienellson · March 2017

LOL thread revival. Epic. Let the mass triggering ensue.