WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

DenMoria

thankyourat wrote: »

So what I'm getting from this thread is that some players are scared streamers will get rid of some of the casual friendly mechanics and actually make the game more skill base thus making it to where casual players won't be able to complete content or compete in PvP anymore. But wouldn't that be a good thing there should be more separation between good and average players. And even playing casually eventually you will be able to compete the content, honestly that sounds better for everyone it would add a sense of accomplishment to the game that's been missing for awhile now.

Someones an elitest, eh?

No. It would not be a good thing to alienate the majority of players for the few that have the time to obsessively play the game and "maximize" their builds.

It's fine if that's the way they want to go. I've pretty much given up anyway.

bowmanz607

Paulington wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Half the people here don't even stream or do YouTube.

ha tell that to op. People have been trying to tell him that.

hope you had a good time!!!

We had an awesome time and yes there were more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half in fact.

ya, that was my assumption. people yell about the streamers cause they announced it is all.

Moglijuana

DenMoria wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Wrong again. "Meta" builds for PvP are rarely using VMA/DSA weapons now since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set as it yields better resource management & better damage. The Master's Bow/Staves do find their way into specific builds, but they are most certainly not Meta, VMA weapons even less so now.

now. right.
idgaf what is being used this week.

I was talking to a different person, specific to their comment, about the percentage of players that would be involved in BOTH end game raiding and pvp, one to serve the other. You're trying to turn this point into a conversation with you, when it was not.

You want to sidetrack by saying, "Nobody is doing that RIGHT NOW". Okay, but they were. And they probably will later. sheesh.

willlienellson wrote: »

since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set

Right. Cause everyone is running 12 pieces. Almost nobody runs 2H or staff in Cyrodiil. face/palm

You can run 2 5 pieces with a 2h/bow and a Destro/Resto lol. Offensive set front bar, sustain set back bar. Hello proper build planning! Anyways, you seem to be too ingrained in your own little world to have any one else think differently when they actually know what they are talking about. Have fun being wrong on basically your whole post, and making yourself look like a salty care bear . Have a good day!

Did you just tell some one "Proper Build Planning"? And just who determines what "proper" is? You?

I did. The all mighty "Meta", duh, or maybe the fact that I and many others have gone through extensive testing/theory crafting to determine what a proper competitive build ends up looking like. Who determines that all the people who were invited to ZOS are cheaters/exploiters/unbalanced eso gods that don't represent 90% of the community? See? I can ask and answer dumb questions too.

grumlins

I happen to know that Deltia supports my kind of playerbase casual pve only players, because he's gone through and made mention that any class spec is possible and useful.

This is for tanking, healing and dpsing which are the three rolls for the majority of the playerbase in this particular title which is dungeoneering.

I trust Deltia because I watch his videos particularly because he is inclusive with alternative ideas and with the concepts of openness and with the process of debunking claims that games should be played solely in a particular spec or gear type.

So while your complaints might have merit in other titles this particular gamer is not an issue.

DenMoria

Moglijuana wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Wrong again. "Meta" builds for PvP are rarely using VMA/DSA weapons now since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set as it yields better resource management & better damage. The Master's Bow/Staves do find their way into specific builds, but they are most certainly not Meta, VMA weapons even less so now.

now. right.
idgaf what is being used this week.

I was talking to a different person, specific to their comment, about the percentage of players that would be involved in BOTH end game raiding and pvp, one to serve the other. You're trying to turn this point into a conversation with you, when it was not.

You want to sidetrack by saying, "Nobody is doing that RIGHT NOW". Okay, but they were. And they probably will later. sheesh.

willlienellson wrote: »

since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set

Right. Cause everyone is running 12 pieces. Almost nobody runs 2H or staff in Cyrodiil. face/palm

You can run 2 5 pieces with a 2h/bow and a Destro/Resto lol. Offensive set front bar, sustain set back bar. Hello proper build planning! Anyways, you seem to be too ingrained in your own little world to have any one else think differently when they actually know what they are talking about. Have fun being wrong on basically your whole post, and making yourself look like a salty care bear . Have a good day!

Did you just tell some one "Proper Build Planning"? And just who determines what "proper" is? You?

I did. The all mighty "Meta", duh, or maybe the fact that I and many others have gone through extensive testing/theory crafting to determine what a proper competitive build ends up looking like. Who determines that all the people who were invited to ZOS are cheaters/exploiters/unbalanced eso gods that don't represent 90% of the community? See? I can ask and answer dumb questions too.

Again, "proper". I wish people would stop using that word. Who determines what is "proper". Is it you? Is it one of the almighty "elites". And why is it "proper"? Because it achieves the results that that particular individual desires? Who are they to say that those are what the majority of people desire? Beyond that, who determines what is "competitive". I personally couldn't give a flyin' fig about all the special achievements, trophies, collections and crap like that. I play to have fun. If I really want to go to Cyrodil or IC or wherever, I do. Try to gank me and I'll make sure you die painfully, but I'm not going to participate in your stupid "war" of GvG or whatever and I will not be yelled at and ordered around by anybody. Sure it may not be popular and, sure it may not be the way that the "special people" want me to play. But I play the way I want to play.

I really don't have a problem with who they invited. I can deal with that. You give special attention to those individuals who promote the game and give it free advertising. So what? The rest of us pleebs mean next to nothing other than money.

And this sort of thread is EXACTLY why 90% of the time ESO sits on a shelf gathering dust while I play other things. Most of the time the lame DA:I co-op is better than being lambasted because you don't fit the narrow little definition of "proper" in ESO.

DenMoria

grumlins wrote: »

I happen to know that Deltia supports my kind of playerbase casual pve only players, because he's gone through and made mention that any class spec is possible and useful.

This is for tanking, healing and dpsing which are the three rolls for the majority of the playerbase in this particular title which is dungeoneering.

I trust Deltia because I watch his videos particularly because he is inclusive with alternative ideas and with the concepts of openness and with the process of debunking claims that games should be played solely in a particular spec or gear type.

So while your complaints might have merit in other titles this particular gamer is not an issue.

True. I have absolutely no issues with Deltia at all and I enjoy the YouTube streaming and all that and the builds are great, particularly if I want to maximize.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

MissBizz wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Oooh the "It's ok because capitalism" argument. I love that one! My turn!

In 1984, the company Bayer realized that a lot of their blood products, (Factor VIII and IX anti-hemophiliac compounds), were contaminated with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). However, the financial investment in the product was considered too high to destroy the inventory. So Bayer misrepresented the results of its own research and sold the contaminated Blood Products to overseas markets in Asia and Latin America without the precaution of heat treating the product recommended for eliminating the risk. As a consequence, hemophiliacs who infused the HIV-contaminated products tested positive for HIV and developed AIDS.

It's just a business people, relax!

A video game and blood used to save someone's life that gives them a life threatening illness are not on the same level. At. All.

@Yolokin_Swagonborn is correct the EXACT same principle is involved.

When profit is the ONLY guiding principle involved then the first casualty is always "product integrity" and that means the customer is either getting ripped off or duped.

All The Best

willlienellson

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I wouldn't describe a company who chooses a panel of customers to test future products...

But that's the point. These guys are much closer to being in a B2B (business to business) relationship with Zos than being traditional customers at this point. That's exactly the point.

Paulington

willlienellson wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I wouldn't describe a company who chooses a panel of customers to test future products...

But that's the point. These guys are much closer to being in a B2B (business to business) relationship with Zos than being traditional customers at this point. That's exactly the point.

I mean, I make zero money from the few YouTube videos I've made and the streams I do maybe once every few weeks.

Given that around half of the testing team never streams or posts YouTube content it seems to me that ZOS chose people based upon their ability to provide meaningful feedback in a coherent and constructive manner. It just so happens that (unsurprisingly) streamers of the game tend to be some of the most skilled players.

willlienellson

Paulington wrote: »

We had an awesome time and yes there were more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half in fact.

That's good to know, but I wish I had some actual names. Because someone used Alcast earlier as an example of a nonstreamer, but the first result you get when you google "Alcast ESO" is his youtube channel with 20k followers (compared to 57k for Sypher).

When people say, "Non-streamers/YouTubers" maybe they mean people not making a career from doing those things? But they're still doing those things.

Or maybe someone can give me a new example.

I'd love the name of someone who was at the event who I can find them posting on this forum but when I google them I won't find a youtube channel.

EDIT:

Paulington wrote: »

I mean, I make zero money from the few YouTube videos I've made and the streams I do maybe once every few weeks.

Given that around half of the testing team never streams or posts YouTube content it seems to me that ZOS chose people based upon their ability to provide meaningful feedback in a coherent and constructive manner.

I can appreciate that, but my point is that by engaging in the same activity, even if you don't make a living from it, you represent the same thing to Zos - just on a smaller scale.

But like I said, can someone throw out a name of a person who was included that doesn't have anything to do with youtube and streaming?

Thanks.

anitajoneb17_ESO

willlienellson wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I wouldn't describe a company who chooses a panel of customers to test future products...

But that's the point. These guys are much closer to being in a B2B (business to business) relationship with Zos than being traditional customers at this point. That's exactly the point.

Even if it were true, even if the meeting involved only "professional" streamers/youtubers that make a living out of ESO, I still fail to see what the problem would be. It would probably be even better, since the average player will only want the game to suit his personal needs and preferences, whereas a professional streamer is interested in keeping all aspects of the game healthy because he targets a diversified audience.

Paulington

willlienellson wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

We had an awesome time and yes there were more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half in fact.

That's good to know, but I wish I had some actual names. Because someone used Alcast earlier as an example of a nonstreamer, but the first result you get when you google "Alcast ESO" is his youtube channel with 20k followers (compared to 57k for Sypher).

When people say, "Non-streamers/YouTubers" maybe they mean people not making a career from doing those things? But they're still doing those things.

Or maybe someone can give me a new example.

I'd love the name of someone who was at the event who I can find them posting on this forum but when I google them I won't find a youtube channel.

EDIT:

Paulington wrote: »

I mean, I make zero money from the few YouTube videos I've made and the streams I do maybe once every few weeks.

Given that around half of the testing team never streams or posts YouTube content it seems to me that ZOS chose people based upon their ability to provide meaningful feedback in a coherent and constructive manner.

I can appreciate that, but my point is that by engaging in the same activity, even if you don't make a living from it, you represent the same thing to Zos - just on a smaller scale.

But like I said, can someone throw out a name of a person who was included that doesn't have anything to do with youtube and streaming?

Thanks.

It's up to each individual person if they with to disclose their involvement, but there were people there who do not stream or make YouTube videos, instead just being very knowledgeable.

Perhaps one will chime in the thread a little later. The event only recently finished so I imagine a few are still getting home, I am still in the USA for example! .

willlienellson

Paulington wrote: »

It's up to each individual person if they with to disclose their involvement, but there were people there who do not stream or make YouTube videos, instead just being very knowledgeable.

Perhaps one will chime in the thread a little later. The event only recently finished so I imagine a few are still getting home, I am still in the USA for example! .

I'll look forward to that. That would go a long way towards changing or at least tempering my opinion.
But until then...it's been just 100% youtubers/streamers as known participants, even if they all aren't making a living from it.

willlienellson

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

average player will only want the game to suit his personal needs and preferences, whereas a professional streamer is interested in keeping all aspects of the game healthy

I disagree and I think that's naive.

Oompuh

willlienellson wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

We had an awesome time and yes there were more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half in fact.

That's good to know, but I wish I had some actual names. Because someone used Alcast earlier as an example of a nonstreamer, but the first result you get when you google "Alcast ESO" is his youtube channel with 20k followers (compared to 57k for Sypher).

When people say, "Non-streamers/YouTubers" maybe they mean people not making a career from doing those things? But they're still doing those things.

Or maybe someone can give me a new example.

I'd love the name of someone who was at the event who I can find them posting on this forum but when I google them I won't find a youtube channel.

EDIT:

Paulington wrote: »

I mean, I make zero money from the few YouTube videos I've made and the streams I do maybe once every few weeks.

Given that around half of the testing team never streams or posts YouTube content it seems to me that ZOS chose people based upon their ability to provide meaningful feedback in a coherent and constructive manner.

I can appreciate that, but my point is that by engaging in the same activity, even if you don't make a living from it, you represent the same thing to Zos - just on a smaller scale.

But like I said, can someone throw out a name of a person who was included that doesn't have anything to do with youtube and streaming?

Thanks.

If you dont have a public image on the game, how would ZOS know you exist? There may be more knowledgable people on the game, but the fact is they dont know who they are because they dont have a public image. Thats just how it is.

anitajoneb17_ESO

willlienellson wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

average player will only want the game to suit his personal needs and preferences, whereas a professional streamer is interested in keeping all aspects of the game healthy

I disagree and I think that's naive.

Please explain how that is naive ?

willlienellson

Oompuh wrote: »

If you dont have a public image on the game, how would ZOS know you exist? There may be more knowledgable people on the game, but the fact is they dont know who they are because they dont have a public image. Thats just how it is.

I don't know, but @Paulington just said they were there. They could be people that have good scores from inside the game that were asked in-game. They could be people that submitted very helpful feedback inside the game and were invited (wouldn't that be awesome). They could be people from these forums. They could be people from the reddit forums. They could be people selected at random.

I don't know. But I want to know.

This changes everything. People keep saying, "Not all streamers" but I haven't actually seen a person mentioned yet that isn't either making a living from streaming/tubing ESO or doing the same activity unprofitably. From Zos's point of view they would be the same.

Zos needs feedback (we all agree). Zos needs publicity (we all agree). But I don't want Zos getting most of their feedback from a select group of players in exchange for publicity.

The streamers and tubers would be plugging ESO anyway. They're dedicated to doing so. It's like a magazine on Hollywood. You don't have to give Vanity Fair or Empire creative input in how to make your next movie for them to keep writing about movies.

So giving this select group more creative input than others is dumb and pointless since the service they give in exchange is going to happen anyway. It's an unnecessary cost we all bare.

BUT. But if they did invite "more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half" as @Paulington says, then that changes the entire dynamics of the meeting and would go a long way to alleviating most if not all of my concerns.

I'm just hoping to get some details that confirm.

idk

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Oooh the "It's ok because capitalism" argument. I love that one! My turn!

In 1984, the company Bayer realized that a lot of their blood products, (Factor VIII and IX anti-hemophiliac compounds), were contaminated with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). However, the financial investment in the product was considered too high to destroy the inventory. So Bayer misrepresented the results of its own research and sold the contaminated Blood Products to overseas markets in Asia and Latin America without the precaution of heat treating the product recommended for eliminating the risk. As a consequence, hemophiliacs who infused the HIV-contaminated products tested positive for HIV and developed AIDS.

It's just a business people, relax!

A video game and blood used to save someone's life that gives them a life threatening illness are not on the same level. At. All.

@Yolokin_Swagonborn is correct the EXACT same principle is involved.

When profit is the ONLY guiding principle involved then the first casualty is always "product integrity" and that means the customer is either getting ripped off or duped.

All The Best

@Gandrhulf_Harbard
Absolutely absurd to say such a comparison is correct. @MissBizz was correct with her reply.

It's as insular as the original post of this thread.

willlienellson

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Please explain how that is naive ?

Sure, I'd be happy to.
I can't mention names or link to websites, but they probably aren't hard to find if you research.
Some of these streamers/youtubers have websites set up where they charge HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS to players to teach them special "tricks" and "strategies" to excel at the game.

And these same people get extra feedback opportunities and early access to information.
So, it's a problem in both directions.

First, they potentially get access to information which they can and do charge large sums to players to share.

Second, they have a vested financial interest in giving feedback that keeps the game imbalanced so they can charge large sums to help players cross the ever growing power-gap between average and best.

Feel free to personal message me if you want to have a more detailed chat.

SirAndy

thankyourat wrote: »

So what I'm getting from this thread is that some players are scared streamers will get rid of some of the casual friendly mechanics and actually make the game more skill base thus making it to where casual players won't be able to complete content or compete in PvP anymore.

You are confusing casual with un-skilled. Those two are not synonymous ...

Oompuh

willlienellson wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

If you dont have a public image on the game, how would ZOS know you exist? There may be more knowledgable people on the game, but the fact is they dont know who they are because they dont have a public image. Thats just how it is.

I don't know, but @Paulington just said they were there. They could be people that have good scores from inside the game that were asked in-game. They could be people that submitted very helpful feedback inside the game and were invited (wouldn't that be awesome). They could be people from these forums. They could be people from the reddit forums. They could be people selected at random.

I don't know. But I want to know.

This changes everything. People keep saying, "Not all streamers" but I haven't actually seen a person mentioned yet that isn't either making a living from streaming/tubing ESO or doing the same activity unprofitably. From Zos's point of view they would be the same.

Zos needs feedback (we all agree). Zos needs publicity (we all agree). But I don't want Zos getting most of their feedback from a select group of players in exchange for publicity.

The streamers and tubers would be plugging ESO anyway. They're dedicated to doing so. It's like a magazine on Hollywood. You don't have to give Vanity Fair or Empire creative input in how to make your next movie for them to keep writing about movies.

So giving this select group more creative input than others is dumb and pointless since the service they give in exchange is going to happen anyway. It's an unnecessary cost we all bare.

BUT. But if they did invite "more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half" as @Paulington says, then that changes the entire dynamics of the meeting and would go a long way to alleviating most if not all of my concerns.

I'm just hoping to get some details that confirm.

These are 2 pictures of the meeting with ZOS. If "everyone" is a streamer than people should be able to name everyone in this picture. Correct?

*These pictures are from Feng's twitter, no secret NDA stuff

willlienellson

Oompuh wrote: »

These are 2 pictures of the meeting with ZOS. If "everyone" is a streamer than people should be able to name everyone in this picture. Correct?

I don't follow the youtubers and streamers enough to know, and I don't know if they all show their faces. I don't know.
Sounds reasonable. I'm waiting for someone to say,

"Yeah, I was there. I've never made youtube videos"

Or, "______ was there. He posts on the forums but no videos" Etc.

These are promising developments. But I don't follow FENGRUSH's twitter and I don't know what the streamers look like. Shocking I know. So, I'm waiting for confirmation to reevaluate my opinions.

DenMoria

SirAndy wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

So what I'm getting from this thread is that some players are scared streamers will get rid of some of the casual friendly mechanics and actually make the game more skill base thus making it to where casual players won't be able to complete content or compete in PvP anymore.

You are confusing casual with un-skilled. Those two are not synonymous ...

They are in my case! Or is that the other way round?

Calboy

Wow there are some hurt egos in here. It's so good to read.

Also, who the hell do you guys expect should be selected? A bunch of losers on the forums who act like toddlers? Or guys who make content about the game for all to see.

AshTal

Agree with the original post so much

Balancing and nerfs are all around the 1%ers who have 70 hours a week to spend getting best gear and work out the best rotations (and maybe cheat) we all know these people 7-10 normal players attack them in PvP and all get killed by a single person, we can't seem to damage them they kill us in 2 hits showing 90K of damage in a couple of seconds with multiple abilities that all should have taken 2 seconds to cast but some how managed to kick off all at the same time.

We need the average player who put in 99% of the revenue not the elite few to be looked after.

Kodrac

This all sounds very hipster. "I don't like those guys because they're popular."

willlienellson

Kodrac wrote: »

This all sounds very hipster. "I don't like those guys because they're popular."

It's not about that at all. I actually like a few of them. That doesn't mean I think their relationship with Zos is always healthy.

Calboy wrote: »

Wow there are some hurt egos in here. It's so good to read.

Also, who the hell do you guys expect should be selected? A bunch of losers on the forums who act like toddlers? Or guys who make content about the game for all to see.

Except that's not how it works.

Some of these streamers/youtubers have websites set up where they charge HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS to players to teach them special "tricks" and "strategies" to excel at the game.

And these same people get extra feedback opportunities and early access to information.
So, it's a problem in both directions.

First, they potentially get access to information which they can and do charge large sums to players to share.

Second, they have a vested financial interest in giving feedback that keeps the game imbalanced so they can charge large sums to help players cross the ever growing power-gap between average and best.

I mean, let me just rephrase the question.

Should people that are charging hundreds of dollars to players to teach them how to be elite get special feedback privileges for game direction and special early access to game mechanics?

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Calboy

It's just a game guys... that we all should be playing for a bit of fun and relaxation. Unfortunately the 'elite' forget this and ruin the game for everyone else.

bowmanz607

willlienellson wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

These are 2 pictures of the meeting with ZOS. If "everyone" is a streamer than people should be able to name everyone in this picture. Correct?

I don't follow the youtubers and streamers enough to know, and I don't know if they all show their faces. I don't know.
Sounds reasonable. I'm waiting for someone to say,

"Yeah, I was there. I've never made youtube videos"

Or, "______ was there. He posts on the forums but no videos" Etc.

These are promising developments. But I don't follow FENGRUSH's twitter and I don't know what the streamers look like. Shocking I know. So, I'm waiting for confirmation to reevaluate my opinions.

hahahahha

sooooo you make all these claims in your op about how they dont represent the majority, zos caters to these players etc etc etc, yet you dont watch any of them or know their stance on anything.

good grief mate, do you hear yourself???