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dday3six wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Typically players become good through a mix of natural talent and skill developed via practice. That's true with or without AC.

Try to actually counter arguments instead of thinking they are invalid based on alleged personal interest.

The point I was trying to make is that a sniper can't be an awesome sharp shooter with a shot gun. Animation cancelling allows players to do more damage over time and in my oponion some players rely on it. Without it they'll be disadvantaged. Hence the question, which is not a statement by the way or meant to be insulting to anyone.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Typically players become good through a mix of natural talent and skill developed via practice. That's true with or without AC.

Try to actually counter arguments instead of thinking they are invalid based on alleged personal interest.

The point I was trying to make is that a sniper can't be an awesome sharp shooter with a shot gun. Animation cancelling allows players to do more damage over time and in my oponion some players rely on it. Without it they'll be disadvantaged. Hence the question, which is not a statement by the way or meant to be insulting to anyone.

It is literally just adding a few extra steps to a good rotation. Take it away and its still a good rotation, you just have to think about less things. So really all taking it away would do is make it boring.

Besides, you can certainly be an expert marksman with a shotgun. Sure the range isnt great, but its nowhere near impossible.

dday3six wrote: »

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Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.

Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.

The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.

You make a fair point but I disagree. Its more like asking basketball players if they'll still be as good if they couldn't fly. It shouldn't happen. Obviously in this example it can't happen LOL. The only reason it's still there IMO is because ZOS darent fix it out of fear of breaking everything else. It's obviously an exploit. I'm not saying there's no skill behind it and I don't blame players for taking advantage of it. I just think it's uneccesarry is all. Theres more clear and obvious ways to demonstrate skill. What's the point of beating someone if they can't see how you did it?

For reference is it an exploit that players can sprint and use a skill to stop versus having to manually stop before using a skill? That's also animation canceling.

ZOS can "fix" animation canceling by reworking the game's action prioritization recognition to force animations to fully playout before other actions are sequenced. However this would require reworking combat and action interplay in the whole of the game, as reaction based blocking and dodging also would be altered. As such it is not a worry of breaking something, but rather no interest in spending massive amounts of development time to rework an otherwise functioning game.

Honestly I don't believe people advocating for AC's removal actually understand the extent and scope of what they are asking for.

Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?

Wollust wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.

Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.

The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.

You make a fair point but I disagree. Its more like asking basketball players if they'll still be as good if they couldn't fly. It shouldn't happen. Obviously in this example it can't happen LOL. The only reason it's still there IMO is because ZOS darent fix it out of fear of breaking everything else. It's obviously an exploit. I'm not saying there's no skill behind it and I don't blame players for taking advantage of it. I just think it's uneccesarry is all. Theres more clear and obvious ways to demonstrate skill. What's the point of beating someone if they can't see how you did it?

For reference is it an exploit that players can sprint and use a skill to stop versus having to manually stop before using a skill? That's also animation canceling.

ZOS can "fix" animation canceling by reworking the game's action prioritization recognition to force animations to fully playout before other actions are sequenced. However this would require reworking combat and action interplay in the whole of the game, as reaction based blocking and dodging also would be altered. As such it is not a worry of breaking something, but rather no interest in spending massive amounts of development time to rework an otherwise functioning game.

Honestly I don't believe people advocating for AC's removal actually understand the extent and scope of what they are asking for.

Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?

So basically you don't even know what animation canceling is but your advocating its removal?
Great.

If that's not how it works then please enlighten me

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.

Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.

The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.

You make a fair point but I disagree. Its more like asking basketball players if they'll still be as good if they couldn't fly. It shouldn't happen. Obviously in this example it can't happen LOL. The only reason it's still there IMO is because ZOS darent fix it out of fear of breaking everything else. It's obviously an exploit. I'm not saying there's no skill behind it and I don't blame players for taking advantage of it. I just think it's uneccesarry is all. Theres more clear and obvious ways to demonstrate skill. What's the point of beating someone if they can't see how you did it?

For reference is it an exploit that players can sprint and use a skill to stop versus having to manually stop before using a skill? That's also animation canceling.

ZOS can "fix" animation canceling by reworking the game's action prioritization recognition to force animations to fully playout before other actions are sequenced. However this would require reworking combat and action interplay in the whole of the game, as reaction based blocking and dodging also would be altered. As such it is not a worry of breaking something, but rather no interest in spending massive amounts of development time to rework an otherwise functioning game.

Honestly I don't believe people advocating for AC's removal actually understand the extent and scope of what they are asking for.

Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?

So basically you don't even know what animation canceling is but your advocating its removal?
Great.

If that's not how it works then please enlighten me

Too much effort to write a wall of text on what it is and how to, instead dear Alcast is going to do the explaining:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTjhXLQXpac

And just in case if he doesn't mention it: No, you don't (and can't) cancel or bypass cast times (like wrecking blow, dark flare and whatever) with animation canceling.

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They should get rid of the horrible animation system they implemented a few updates ago.

Animation cancel was ok before it, even though a system with no GCD really hurts high Ping players I like it this way.

I agree on this with my whole heart! Rever5t back to what it was before that.

I have a split opinion. If they are not going to remove it, they should make sure that animation cancelling is equal between classes and specs.

In addition, ZoS should add a tutorial or accessible information explaining animation cancelling if they are going to leave it in. As odd is it may sound, relatively few people that play the game understand what it is. I explain the concept to newer players on an almost weekly basis. I posted on this in the early days to no avail.

dday3six wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Typically players become good through a mix of natural talent and skill developed via practice. That's true with or without AC.

Try to actually counter arguments instead of thinking they are invalid based on alleged personal interest.

The point I was trying to make is that a sniper can't be an awesome sharp shooter with a shot gun. Animation cancelling allows players to do more damage over time and in my oponion some players rely on it. Without it they'll be disadvantaged. Hence the question, which is not a statement by the way or meant to be insulting to anyone.

I cringe a bit every time people who cleary knows little about firearms, try to make firearm related analogies. I get that you're most likely making reference to video game representations of firearms, but look up skeet shooting and know that it's mostly done with shotguns. Further the precision shooting skills of a sniper don't suddenly vanish when they are firing anything but a sniper rifle.

There doesn't really need to be an analogy, it's simply one way of playing vs another.

For the love of Talos!

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?

No. Its not. Go back and read my post #547 where I explain why. While you're at it, please consult a dictionary for the definition of the word 'instant'. The reason this conversation is frustrating for people who support animation cancelling is precisely because the vast majority of the opposition doesn't even understand the concept well enough for their opinions to be valid or worth entertaining.

The entire point is....the skills that can be animation cancelled do not have a cast time. Therefore, you aren't by passing anything.

I presented my comment as a question for a reason. You know... inviting someone who knows what they're talking about to give me some incite. Or is every question deemed satire on this forum? I was under the impression that animation canceling allows the player to deal more dps. So as much as I appreciate your incite your tone isn't very nice my love.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?

No. Its not. Go back and read my post #547 where I explain why. While you're at it, please consult a dictionary for the definition of the word 'instant'. The reason this conversation is frustrating for people who support animation cancelling is precisely because the vast majority of the opposition doesn't even understand the concept well enough for their opinions to be valid or worth entertaining.

The entire point is....the skills that can be animation cancelled do not have a cast time. Therefore, you aren't by passing anything.

I presented my comment as a question for a reason. You know... inviting someone who knows what they're talking about to give me some incite. Or is every question deemed satire on this forum? I was under the impression that animation canceling allows the player to deal more dps. So as much as I appreciate your incite your tone isn't very nice my love.

AC or more specifically weaving increases DPS when it's done smoothly. Weaving is basically working in light/heavy/medium attacks, blocks, bashes, dodges, bar swap etc into a rotation of skills. Tanks and Healers use it too, because more actions in between the GCD is more efficient, but regardless of AC there is a global cooldown of 0.9s for all skills so no other skill can be used during that cooldown.

dramsb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.

As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.

You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.

dday3six wrote: »

dramsb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.

As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.

You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.

This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.

Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.

Emencie wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

dramsb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.

As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.

You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.

This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.

Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.

Well there is a global cooldown of 0.9s for all skills, though it is poorly communicated to players in game however.