Do you think ZOS should eliminate animation cancelling?

tunepunk

Yes get rid of it

Hmmmm maybe. I just makes more sense if you either attack or use a skill. Not both "simultaneously". But i think it should depend on the skill maybe. After a light attack any offensive skill should should be queued, or the light attack is cancelled and the skill takes over. But dodge rolling, blocking and other defensive stuff that requires timing to survive should be allowed, not for offence.

EnemyOfDaState

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Can someone tell me the last big MMO that didn't have animation canceling?

Swtor

I skipped that one. I know DCUO and GW2 had it. Seems like a staple in action MMO'S.

Rohamad_Ali

Yes get rid of it

Typhoios wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Can someone tell me the last big MMO that didn't have animation canceling?

Swtor

The combat in that game is so damn boring. I liked the stories, but once I finished the class story lines, I quit.

The combat is fine in that game in my opinion . There F2P system is garbage . Ever play a Force healer ? Pretty fun . Marauders are fun too .

Luigi_Vampa

No let it stay

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Can someone tell me the last big MMO that didn't have animation canceling?

Swtor

The combat in that game is so damn boring. I liked the stories, but once I finished the class story lines, I quit.

The combat is fine in that game in my opinion . There F2P system is garbage . Ever play a Force healer ? Pretty fun . Marauders are fun too .

Different strokes, I guess. The combat was slow. I played as a jedi healer and with a tank companion it was so easy. I liked bounty hunter just because the animations were cool looking.

Tapio75

Other (Please explain)

Current compromise feels clunky and bad, convert back to what it was before change.

Besides, go play SWTOR and you can feel how wgreat the game is without animation canceling, there will be ability delays and light/heavy attacks would not work well with that system. Allready with the compromise, the attacks wont always happen or they happen but animation does not play, sometimes abilities wont fire after blocking because the system is in compromise mode. Combat was more fluid before it was changed and besides, its your fault if you cant execute it well, it has always been in these types of games that if some people cant use some attack system well and are not good enough, they ask game to be made easier to make themselves feel better.

Especially blocking is very unresponsive right now, if i have an attack wwith charge and see opponent making a heavy attack, i have to wait for the damned animation to finish, no way to cancel the execution right now. Sometimes even heavy attacks are too long to change to block. The focus here, should be to make blocking as responsive as it can be and also, make animations wwork better so that if you block while you are doing uppercut for example, the large weapon would not suddenly vanish mid air and poof to block position, there needs to be animation between these two states.

CyrusArya

No let it stay

Every few months, a new generation of baddies foray into the competetive scene and make this post, and then they are met by a chorus of last generations baddies that never got good. And every few months I'm forced to make this same rebuttal.

The main counter argument against animation cancelling is moot. Animation Cancelling does not allow people to bypass intended game mechanics.

You cannot cancel skills with a cast time. The intended balancing via cast times is in tact regardless. You can only cancel instant cast abilities, which unless my understanding of the English language is wrong, means the abilities fires off the very moment the button is pressed. So with that being the case, animation cancelling doesn't let you bypass cast times. Rather it removes the 'fluff' between animations to allow for more fluid, connected, and skillful game play. It simply allows for better control of your characters and an added layer of skill.

After nearly 3 years, the removal of this core mechanic in this game would fundamentally alter combat and make the game much more clunky, much less dynamic and much less skillful. Which is probably why the people who cry about it cry about it.

OdinForge

No let it stay

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Can someone tell me the last big MMO that didn't have animation canceling?

Swtor

The combat in that game is so damn boring. I liked the stories, but once I finished the class story lines, I quit.

The combat is fine in that game in my opinion . There F2P system is garbage . Ever play a Force healer ? Pretty fun . Marauders are fun too .

That combat is outdated and boring, get over yourself and your misconception of what animation canceling is. Every game with fluid combat features some form of animation canceling, even newer games like Overwatch or Paragon incorporate some form of animation canceling into their combat system to help the combat feel less robotic. Games like Super Smash Bros use some forms of animation canceling as well, people enjoy the responsive and fast combat.

ESO is plauged by such a misinformed and casual player-base, people who have literally zero understanding of the game are free to come onto the forums and shoot their opinions around like they've been playing the game since launch.

technohic

Yes get rid of it

OdinForge wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Can someone tell me the last big MMO that didn't have animation canceling?

Swtor

The combat in that game is so damn boring. I liked the stories, but once I finished the class story lines, I quit.

The combat is fine in that game in my opinion . There F2P system is garbage . Ever play a Force healer ? Pretty fun . Marauders are fun too .

That combat is outdated and boring, get over yourself and your misconception of what animation canceling is. Every game with fluid combat features some form of animation canceling, even newer games like Overwatch or Paragon incorporate some form of animation canceling into their combat system to help the combat feel less robotic. Games like Super Smash Bros use some forms of animation canceling as well, people enjoy the responsive and fast combat.

ESO is plauged by such a misinformed and casual player-base, people who have literally zero understanding of the game are free to come onto the forums and shoot their opinions around like they've been playing the game since launch.

You say that; but the fact you liken it to buttom mashers and FPS games is kind of their point.

I actually don't care any more. I think there are much more important things to worry about in the game. Animation cancelling wouldn't even be an issue if some of the animations were not unnecessarily annoying.

And F me for perpetuating this thread more!

Jimbullbee85

Yes get rid of it

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

MEBengalsFan2001

In other games I play this is called clipping. It is very normal to see this in games, not just MMO games. Clipping allows players to get extra damage from an ability or weapon attack by clipping into the next ability or weapon move. Programming to stop this type of action will take plenty of time.

I know in some other games there were abilities you could cancel the animation and still get the damage off by jumping, this is normally called jump cancelling.

There are other terminology for cancelling animation to get the most damage out of one's character and players who support these methods tend to argue that if others cannot do this they are unskilled.

I have heard both sides and IMO, if the company that made the game can remove animation cancellation they should if the cost vs. benefit is equal or results in more revenue. If the change will take too much resources to complete than I say leave it as is and learn to play the animation cancellation game.

OdinForge

No let it stay

technohic wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Can someone tell me the last big MMO that didn't have animation canceling?

Swtor

The combat in that game is so damn boring. I liked the stories, but once I finished the class story lines, I quit.

The combat is fine in that game in my opinion . There F2P system is garbage . Ever play a Force healer ? Pretty fun . Marauders are fun too .

That combat is outdated and boring, get over yourself and your misconception of what animation canceling is. Every game with fluid combat features some form of animation canceling, even newer games like Overwatch or Paragon incorporate some form of animation canceling into their combat system to help the combat feel less robotic. Games like Super Smash Bros use some forms of animation canceling as well, people enjoy the responsive and fast combat.

ESO is plauged by such a misinformed and casual player-base, people who have literally zero understanding of the game are free to come onto the forums and shoot their opinions around like they've been playing the game since launch.

You say that; but the fact you liken it to buttom mashers and FPS games is kind of their point.

I actually don't care any more. I think there are much more important things to worry about in the game. Animation cancelling wouldn't even be an issue if some of the animations were not unnecessarily annoying.

And F me for perpetuating this thread more!

ESO by design is a button masher, animation canceling is irrelevant to the idea of "button mashing". Paragon is not a "button mashing" game it has ability cool-downs as a MOBA typically does, there are functional animation canceling mechanics in the game. Animation canceling doesn't turn a game into a button masher, a FPS shooter isn't a button masher. The animation canceling mechanics in most FPS games revolve around the melee ability.

ESO is likened to games with fun combat systems, literally the one positive this game had going for it from the start.

AnviOfVai

Yes get rid of it

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Can someone tell me the last big MMO that didn't have animation canceling?

Swtor

The combat in that game is so damn boring. I liked the stories, but once I finished the class story lines, I quit.

The combat is fine in that game in my opinion . There F2P system is garbage . Ever play a Force healer ? Pretty fun . Marauders are fun too .

^^ SWTOR's combat is incredibly good, yeah its not as good at what it cold be, but its clean and fun to do/ Sorc's have some epic large area attacks but are not the best for PVPing. Maraduers had an update with some knew abilities and animation skills added which look very nice. Yeah if you are going to play SWTOR you need to be a subscriber F2P is terrible, and considering the amount of stuff you can get from the game, it is worth subscribing. Been a subscriber for 2 years with 8 characters

(go dark side, seriously!)

Luigi_Vampa

No let it stay

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Honest question, why wouldn't they still be good? If you can do perfect rotations with AC, you can do them without. Everyones dps would drop without AC because less damage is possible when you don't AC. Good players are good players. AC isn't a crutch or an exploit.

SameMeteor26

It's sad because all of you are talking about it like it's some exploit or mod. Animation canceling is simply skill. It is not something they can get rid of. Animation canceling is a skill anyone can have.

CyrusArya

No let it stay

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.

Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.

The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.

OdinForge

No let it stay

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.

Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.

The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.

This.

AnviOfVai

Yes get rid of it

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.

Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.

The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.

I think with the state PVP is in now, we all have the right to complain.

Waseem

Yes get rid of it

animation cancelling is legit because ZOS doesnt know how to fix it without *** up everything.. go play in azura star and see it yourself, if you can animation cancel you DESTROY new players, you can be experienced and kill new players indeed, but you wont be able to destroy them unless you can AC.

also for pve.. like seriously how your reaction will be if NPCs hit you with skills and hits that you dont see because NPCs animation cancel huh? no need to be such hypocrites and defend nothing.. imagine doing veteran Hel Ra where the NPCs does a heavy attack with that Uppercut - even if you block it.. only the tank ( 1 out of 12 ) will survive it.

a player using animation cancelling in PvP versus new players is even harder to survive against(for newbies) if compared to a double mundus stone exploiter.
1) animation canceller do 20k dps instead 8-12k of 1 regular skill
2) double mundus exploiter doing 5% extra dps
if you are skilled or noob, you will always have struggle beating AC dude.

animation cancelling is the real power creep/gap between new players and vets.. put CPs in your closet - again - azura's star and PvP in general are the perfect example- where your opponents are human not artificial stupidity- i mean intellegence..

Alagras

No let it stay

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

A lot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it

Many people seem to think this, and what you guys miss is that cancelling mostly feels great. A bit less since Thieves Guild, but still. You feel in much more direct take with your fighting.

And if it helps performing better, it's not unfair, as it takes practice (much more than skill actually)

Hating it is legit, but to all those who do without having really tried (not aimed at you Jimbullbee idk), please give it a real try first, and a new chance in your mind. The responsiveness feels great.

It can become excessive, and actual combat must stay represented on screen of course, but "getting rid of it" = killing many people's fun and playing pleasure. Not just their "upper hand".

dday3six

No let it stay

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Typically players become good through a mix of natural talent and skill developed via practice. That's true with or without AC.

Try to actually counter arguments instead of thinking they are invalid based on alleged personal interest.

Jimbullbee85

Yes get rid of it

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.

Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.

The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.

You make a fair point but I disagree. Its more like asking basketball players if they'll still be as good if they couldn't fly. It shouldn't happen. Obviously in this example it can't happen LOL. The only reason it's still there IMO is because ZOS darent fix it out of fear of breaking everything else. It's obviously an exploit. I'm not saying there's no skill behind it and I don't blame players for taking advantage of it. I just think it's uneccesarry is all. Theres more clear and obvious ways to demonstrate skill. What's the point of beating someone if they can't see how you did it?

thankyourat

Getting rid of animation cancelling would be the end of small scale pvp. I really don't see any cons too it because skills still have a GCD so it's not like you can be hit with 5 surprise attacks in two seconds. Whats so bad about adding a light attack and a bash with your ability to get the most of your GCD. Not to mention shields on last 6 seconds in not trying to waste 2 of those seconds casting the ability

idk

No let it stay

Riejael wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

When ZOS embraced animation cancelling, it should have also been documented. It is crazy that such an important mechanic is not taught to new players. It is not at all intuitive.

Like Valve provides for new Dota 2 players, there should be a tutorial that teaches animation cancelling.

Its not possible to do a tutorial to teach it.

It is entirely based on ping. The timing for someone with a steady 75ms ping, a steady 300ms ping and an unsteady 60-200ms ping are all different.

At best they can make Lyris or Prophet say, "You may cancel animations of certain instant attacks with other attacks. Timing is an entirely random dependent upon your system, hardware, and physical location."

No newbie will be able to figure that out until they check it out on youtube and then tinker around until they get it right.

@Riejael

Animation canceling can be demonstrated and explained. It's very simplw to do so. Teaching and demonstrating are very independent of ping.

The most basic and common form of animation canceling I ended up figuring out accidently right after the game launched, weaving basic attacks in front of skills. It can even be done with moderate ping.

I do agree a video would make it easier to understand and searching for information is a big dividing line between higher end of dps and the lower end. One cannot learn skill in a vacuum.

technohic

Yes get rid of it

thankyourat wrote: »

Getting rid of animation cancelling would be the end of small scale pvp. I really don't see any cons too it because skills still have a GCD so it's not like you can be hit with 5 surprise attacks in two seconds. Whats so bad about adding a light attack and a bash with your ability to get the most of your GCD. Not to mention shields on last 6 seconds in not trying to waste 2 of those seconds casting the ability

This is very true. I would find a lot of things l like blazing shield worthless with the delay it wants to animate while my guy poops for a second.

Sigtric

No let it stay

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Can someone tell me the last big MMO that didn't have animation canceling?

Swtor

I skipped that one. I know DCUO and GW2 had it. Seems like a staple in action MMO'S.

Yeah, action MMOs pretty much need it. Hotkey MMOs like SWTOR/WOW/LOTRO/Whatever where you are waiting for several cool downs to expire before your next button press don't work the same.

L2Pissue

Yes get rid of it

i am yet to find a proper explanation of why it still in game beside ZOS not knowing how to fix it

dday3six

No let it stay

.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.

Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.

Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.

The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.

You make a fair point but I disagree. Its more like asking basketball players if they'll still be as good if they couldn't fly. It shouldn't happen. Obviously in this example it can't happen LOL. The only reason it's still there IMO is because ZOS darent fix it out of fear of breaking everything else. It's obviously an exploit. I'm not saying there's no skill behind it and I don't blame players for taking advantage of it. I just think it's uneccesarry is all. Theres more clear and obvious ways to demonstrate skill. What's the point of beating someone if they can't see how you did it?

For reference is it an exploit that players can sprint and use a skill to stop versus having to manually stop before using a skill? That's also animation canceling.

ZOS can "fix" animation canceling by reworking the game's action prioritization recognition to force animations to fully playout before other actions are sequenced. However this would require reworking combat and action interplay in the whole of the game, as reaction based blocking and dodging also would be altered. As such it is not a worry of breaking something, but rather no interest in spending massive amounts of development time to rework an otherwise functioning game.

Honestly I don't believe people advocating for AC's removal actually understand the extent and scope of what they are asking for.

Isellskooma

No let it stay

It's everywhere, every single good player does it.

Sigtric

No let it stay

L2Pissue wrote: »

i am yet to find a proper explanation of why it still in game beside ZOS not knowing how to fix it

Basically they can't remove it with out breaking key mechanics of the game. Removing the ability to AC would make block and dodge roll in this game nearly pointless as you would have to remove priority from them, causing you to have to wait before using it if you're in the middle of something else. The ability to react to an enemy attacking you would be impeded.



This is the official stance on it and whether any of us like it or not, it's here to stay:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

Emencie

Yes get rid of it

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Can someone tell me the last big MMO that didn't have animation canceling?

Swtor

I skipped that one. I know DCUO and GW2 had it. Seems like a staple in action MMO'S.

To be fair they almost immediately fixed it in guild wars 2 because it was terrible.

It continues to completely drive the meta in DCUO to this day. As in, if your class build does not have skills that can be jump canceled, then they are trash. 90% of abilities that cannot be cancelled are considered trash and the cookie cutter is out of control at end game.

With ESO at least we don't run into that problem since just about everything can be ACed.

Even Wildstar patched out animation canceling quickly when it cropped up, because it can get out of control and ruin a game.

Right now in ESO end content is balanced around AC a function that many people do not know about, something that drives the meta and requires outside game knowledge to perform. It is a terrible system.