Do you think ZOS should eliminate animation cancelling?

bowmanz607

No let it stay

nemisan wrote: »

It is a very bad thing for PVP. Those who use it, will defend it to the end of days.

You don't know how to AC so your against it. You will advocate till end of days.



See i can do that too

Lookstowindwards

Yes get rid of it

Sigtric wrote: »

What's really sad about it, is that it's not very hard to get proficient enough at AC for it to bring most players on par, and yet many even refuse to take 5 minutes to learn how.

ZOS probably would do well to include some sort of tutorial for it, but I'm guessing there's already a lot of stuff in the Help menu tutorial area that never gets looked at.

A (ingame!) tutorial would indeed be needed, for those who want to learn it, so they can start getting used to it while leveling, not somethen at endgame, if they are lucky to find out. We must never forget, that a lot of people dont read the forums.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I still think you are wildly overstating the issue in PVE. Almost nobody is doing any type of bash canceling there in a DPS rotation. Its light weaving and bar swap cancelling 99% of the time. As I stated before, this is going to amount to about 3K DPS tops. This has nothing to do with your friend that cant pull adequate DPS in dungeons. He has a build and or rotation problem. The other advantage to weaving is that it can help with sustain in longer trial fights. On a staff, it procs elemental drain and you can adjust the length of your weave (at the expense of slowing down your globals) to allow time to regen. That's it. If your buddy is pully 15K, becoming an expert in weaving (or using macros) is not going to turn him into a 40k DPS. He has a fundamental problem somewhere else.

As to the PVP side of things, well you post illustrates exactly why it shouldnt go anywhere. A skilled player should have an advantage over someone that is just button mashing. In ESO, they do.

Well, my friend was not the core problem in this frustrating dungeon run of him. He is doing okayish on AC, still learning but pulling his 25-30k DPS, depending on Lag (which btw is the thing making my own experience here in ESO more and more frustrating, as one can never know if it will be good, okay, bearable or horrible on login).

He was frustrated, because it was impossible to finish a dungeon he thought of being easy with this group of people, because they did not have the DPS needed in this constellation. Because in his world, you should be able to complete a normal dungeon with anyone, if they stay out of stupid and follow the tactics (i think it was WGT or Prison).

Oreyn_Bearclaw

No let it stay

Destruent wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Tinus_92 wrote: »

Imagine completing vmol or any other trial without animation cancelling or weaving.

I think most good groups would not notice the damage so much, but they sure would notice the sustain. Weaving helps sustain more than people realize I think.

Won't make such a big difference with next patch anyway ^^

Very true!

gard

No let it stay

It's a part of the game. Everyone has access to it. Anyone can do it.

LTP issue that hopefully won't detract ZOS from developing new features for this great game.

Rohamad_Ali

Yes get rid of it

OdinForge wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Can someone tell me the last big MMO that didn't have animation canceling?

Swtor

The combat in that game is so damn boring. I liked the stories, but once I finished the class story lines, I quit.

The combat is fine in that game in my opinion . There F2P system is garbage . Ever play a Force healer ? Pretty fun . Marauders are fun too .

That combat is outdated and boring, get over yourself and your misconception of what animation canceling is. Every game with fluid combat features some form of animation canceling, even newer games like Overwatch or Paragon incorporate some form of animation canceling into their combat system to help the combat feel less robotic. Games like Super Smash Bros use some forms of animation canceling as well, people enjoy the responsive and fast combat.

ESO is plauged by such a misinformed and casual player-base, people who have literally zero understanding of the game are free to come onto the forums and shoot their opinions around like they've been playing the game since launch.

I've been playing since second round Beta with a second account full cadwells and almost cp capped as well . I have every right to my opinion .

Riejael

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Why would you try to completely rewrite how people have played for the last 3 years?

To change up the meta. I'm not against them deleting skills and replacing them with ones that do something entirely different just to change things up.

Think about it. What is the goal of playing ESO? Completing VMA? Completing Vet Trials? What's the true endgame for the skilled player?

The true endgame in ESO isn't like in WoW. Lets be honest there is NO clear line of progression. Doing VMA or Vet Trials doesn't give better gear for many builds. But you do them to TEST your own skill and TEST your own unique builds. Many players aren't on that level of course and have to have their builds made for them.

But for the truly skilled ESO player, the 'endgame' is testing a new build and making it work.

So what sense does it make to leave the same meta in the game for 3 years? You have to engage the skilled player with 'new content' and that content could easily be access to new build combinations. This game is alot like Path of Exile and similar games in that regard.

Removing AC is one way to do that. You change the meta and force players to find entirely new builds and rotations since the tried and true ones are suddenly not the same and other discarded methods (like lightning staves for example, and skills with cast times) are now being considered.

Leaving the same meta in for 3 years should not happen. Leaving it in for more than 3 months shouldn't happen either.

Because lets be honest. If you worked up a character for months, perfected the gear. Perfected the rotation. And have completed all Vet Trials. What is left to do? Change in meta means you've got something more. Because simply adding new dungeons isn't the way to engage players. Its the only incentive that really works. Not without giving that content better gear than previous content which makes previous content obsolete.

If you're one that doesn't make their own builds, I can understand why such a concept would be frightening or annoying. But once you advance your level of play to where you don't need to copy others' builds, you'll understand that is where the real endgame. Maybe someday you'll make a build that others want to copy. Should you decide to go public with it.

ethanthefox

No let it stay

Hell no! Animation cancel is what make figths interesting, would be boring doing your PvE rotation without any cancel. Just doing skill after skill instead of learning timing and trying to get better at it.

dday3six

No let it stay

.

Riejael wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Why would you try to completely rewrite how people have played for the last 3 years?

To change up the meta. I'm not against them deleting skills and replacing them with ones that do something entirely different just to change things up.

Think about it. What is the goal of playing ESO? Completing VMA? Completing Vet Trials? What's the true endgame for the skilled player?

The true endgame in ESO isn't like in WoW. Lets be honest there is NO clear line of progression. Doing VMA or Vet Trials doesn't give better gear for many builds. But you do them to TEST your own skill and TEST your own unique builds. Many players aren't on that level of course and have to have their builds made for them.

But for the truly skilled ESO player, the 'endgame' is testing a new build and making it work.

So what sense does it make to leave the same meta in the game for 3 years? You have to engage the skilled player with 'new content' and that content could easily be access to new build combinations. This game is alot like Path of Exile and similar games in that regard.

Removing AC is one way to do that. You change the meta and force players to find entirely new builds and rotations since the tried and true ones are suddenly not the same and other discarded methods (like lightning staves for example, and skills with cast times) are now being considered.

Leaving the same meta in for 3 years should not happen. Leaving it in for more than 3 months shouldn't happen either.

Because lets be honest. If you worked up a character for months, perfected the gear. Perfected the rotation. And have completed all Vet Trials. What is left to do? Change in meta means you've got something more. Because simply adding new dungeons isn't the way to engage players. Its the only incentive that really works. Not without giving that content better gear than previous content which makes previous content obsolete.

If you're one that doesn't make their own builds, I can understand why such a concept would be frightening or annoying. But once you advance your level of play to where you don't need to copy others' builds, you'll understand that is where the real endgame. Maybe someday you'll make a build that others want to copy. Should you decide to go public with it.

Meta shifts and reworking the entirety of combat and animation interactions aren't that comparable. Further it seems like you've still got a bit to learn about making builds if you don't understand how the AC and weaving add an additional layer of complexity on the road to a perfect rotation consider that all skills that can be woven have a different optimal window to weave them.

Bam_Bam

No let it stay

dday3six wrote: »

.

Riejael wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Why would you try to completely rewrite how people have played for the last 3 years?

To change up the meta. I'm not against them deleting skills and replacing them with ones that do something entirely different just to change things up.

Think about it. What is the goal of playing ESO? Completing VMA? Completing Vet Trials? What's the true endgame for the skilled player?

The true endgame in ESO isn't like in WoW. Lets be honest there is NO clear line of progression. Doing VMA or Vet Trials doesn't give better gear for many builds. But you do them to TEST your own skill and TEST your own unique builds. Many players aren't on that level of course and have to have their builds made for them.

But for the truly skilled ESO player, the 'endgame' is testing a new build and making it work.

So what sense does it make to leave the same meta in the game for 3 years? You have to engage the skilled player with 'new content' and that content could easily be access to new build combinations. This game is alot like Path of Exile and similar games in that regard.

Removing AC is one way to do that. You change the meta and force players to find entirely new builds and rotations since the tried and true ones are suddenly not the same and other discarded methods (like lightning staves for example, and skills with cast times) are now being considered.

Leaving the same meta in for 3 years should not happen. Leaving it in for more than 3 months shouldn't happen either.

Because lets be honest. If you worked up a character for months, perfected the gear. Perfected the rotation. And have completed all Vet Trials. What is left to do? Change in meta means you've got something more. Because simply adding new dungeons isn't the way to engage players. Its the only incentive that really works. Not without giving that content better gear than previous content which makes previous content obsolete.

If you're one that doesn't make their own builds, I can understand why such a concept would be frightening or annoying. But once you advance your level of play to where you don't need to copy others' builds, you'll understand that is where the real endgame. Maybe someday you'll make a build that others want to copy. Should you decide to go public with it.

Meta shifts and reworking the entirety of combat and animation interactions aren't that comparable. Further it seems like you've still got a bit to learn about making builds if you don't understand how the AC and weaving add an additional layer of complexity on the road to a perfect rotation consider that all skills that can be woven have a different optimal window to weave them.

Excellent response.

LiquidSchwartz

Yes get rid of it

they are never going to

Riejael

dday3six wrote: »

Meta shifts and reworking the entirety of combat and animation interactions aren't that comparable. Further it seems like you've still got a bit to learn about making builds if you don't understand how the AC and weaving add an additional layer of complexity on the road to a perfect rotation consider that all skills that can be woven have a different optimal window to weave them.

No, I'm willing to learn new things. I don't need to cling to 3 years of tradition and principle and avoid changes that might improve or change the game for the better. I'm 10 years ahead of anyone who has to cling to something for years because they are afraid of change.

The removal of AC won't ruin the game. You can trust me on that.

bowmanz607

No let it stay

Riejael wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Meta shifts and reworking the entirety of combat and animation interactions aren't that comparable. Further it seems like you've still got a bit to learn about making builds if you don't understand how the AC and weaving add an additional layer of complexity on the road to a perfect rotation consider that all skills that can be woven have a different optimal window to weave them.

No, I'm willing to learn new things. I don't need to cling to 3 years of tradition and principle and avoid changes that might improve or change the game for the better. I'm 10 years ahead of anyone who has to cling to something for years because they are afraid of change.

The removal of AC won't ruin the game. You can trust me on that.

See that's the issue. Many people don't view it as avoiding changes for the future as you say. Many believe that removing will make the game worse. By sticking the status quo we are avoiding making it worse.

dday3six

No let it stay

Riejael wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Meta shifts and reworking the entirety of combat and animation interactions aren't that comparable. Further it seems like you've still got a bit to learn about making builds if you don't understand how the AC and weaving add an additional layer of complexity on the road to a perfect rotation consider that all skills that can be woven have a different optimal window to weave them.

No, I'm willing to learn new things. I don't need to cling to 3 years of tradition and principle and avoid changes that might improve or change the game for the better. I'm 10 years ahead of anyone who has to cling to something for years because they are afraid of change.

The removal of AC won't ruin the game. You can trust me on that.

Did I say it would ruin the game? But since you brought up ruination why don't you explain how reactive blocking and dodging would function in a version of ESO without AC?

Do you have an actual argument based in fact that doesn't involve self aggrandizement and pleas to emotion?

You haven't learned anything about AC if you believe in the course of 3 years it has not changed. Changes in animation priority, no stamina regen while blocked, dodge roll fatigue are all examples of recent, using 3 years are the measure, changes which have impacted how weaving and AC are done. And since weaving is different for each class and set up, even changing classes or skills will require changes in how weaving is applied during the course of a rotation.

Are you seriously so dense that you cannot glimpse the folly this anti-change angle you're pushing. You mention building and theory crafting, a process that requires continual change then call people who are against the removal of AC afraid of change. I main a Stamina NB and when Rapid Strikes eclipsed Surprise Attack for DPS output in most group situations I had to learn a new rotation and style of weaving. Would I do that if I was so afraid of change? Would I have even noticed it in the first place if I wasn't constantly changing and tweaking my set up?

LjAnimalchin

No let it stay

The people playing this game, are already playing regardless of AC. If this is changed probably about half(exaggerated) the player base will leave. I doubt it will bring in scores more players. I would probably leave because this game would have a much lower skill ceiling, and it's not all that high right now..

FriedEggSandwich

No let it stay

Riejael wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Meta shifts and reworking the entirety of combat and animation interactions aren't that comparable. Further it seems like you've still got a bit to learn about making builds if you don't understand how the AC and weaving add an additional layer of complexity on the road to a perfect rotation consider that all skills that can be woven have a different optimal window to weave them.

No, I'm willing to learn new things. I don't need to cling to 3 years of tradition and principle and avoid changes that might improve or change the game for the better. I'm 10 years ahead of anyone who has to cling to something for years because they are afraid of change.

The removal of AC won't ruin the game. You can trust me on that.

Who are you and why should I trust you? I think all weapons could be replaced with guns and a first person perspective forced. I wouldn't ruin the game, you can trust me on that.

Haydenmango

Other (Please explain)

Just like all of the long-standing bugs in this broken game ZOS wouldn't know how to fix this even if they wanted to. So instead of fixing this issue early on they decided to take the "It's not a bug it's a feature" route as can be seen in this video someone linked on the first page of this thread - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

Just listening to sir wrobel attempt to describe this previously unintended bug as a encouraged feature is absolutely hilarious.

I really don't care about animation cancelling in the game but it is horrible game design. This quote pretty much sums up my opinion on the topic -

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

"Base Game Patch Features & Content


---> Prioritization of animations during combat <---
Improved facial animations for Mac
…and more!"

did anyone else see that and think "WAIT THEY FINALLY ACCEPT ANIMATION CANCELLING IS BAD!" ?

Source: http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2016/01/20/thieves-guild-first-look

Well they did tell us awhile back that they were looking into ways make combat fluid and at the same time do away with Animation Canceling. This is probably the first step in that direction.

Now before anyone goes on their tirade about "Oh Animation Canceling adds skill to the game" or "Animation Canceling is not good or bad" "Or its an intended feature" etc...is missing the point completely:

Any game the requires me to cancel animations to complete content is fundamentally broken

Animation Canceling at its core violates the The Principles of User Interface Design.

In particular Animation Canceling Violates rule ##4 of the Principles of User Interface Design which states:

• The feedback principle: The design should keep users informed of actions or interpretations, changes of state or condition, and errors or exceptions that are relevant and of interest to the user through clear, concise, and unambiguous language familiar to users.

Using the Default Interface of ESO Animation canceling violates this principle.

ESO's Default interface relies on giving accurate feedback to the user with animations, ]when those animations can be hidden, obscured, or canceled it makes the program difficult and cumbersome for its users in essence these principles which has been the accepted industry standard for user interface designs tells you that Animation Canceling is broken and don't belong in this game. The game IS a User Interface, it allows you to interact with a program , thats what a User Interface is, a game is just a "fun UI"

(Not everyone does nor should be required to run addons and addons are no where listed in the system requirements to run the game)

The User Interface of ESO should be designed with the Default UI in mind and Animation Canceling does not fit and violates UI design rules by allowing people to hide animations which are deisnged to give the user of the game accurate feedback. No one should be required to run addons to know what just happened when someone AC an attack and 2 skills, anything the user can't figure out with the default interface is fundamentally flawed and broken.

So at this point, its clear that Animation Canceling is just a broken feature of ESO they have never gotten around to fixing. Its not even debatable at this point, AC breaks the industry accepted standards of user interface design, arguing this otherwise would get you laughed out of any Software Engineering conference in the country....User Interfaces that are designed correctly DO NOT hide nor have the ability to hide useful, pertinent, important information from its users...its not even a debatable point.

I personally hope they leave AC in the game as is, as i use it religiously to hide animations, AC Crushy Shock weaves, etc...it makes my game life easier at times, but looking at it clearly from a design perspective its clearly broken...the Game is DESIGNED around feeback being given to its users via animations, canceling those animations breaks that feedback mechanism, its really only broken in PVP though, in PVE it really don't break anything per se, but PVP folks use AC as a form of ofusication to hide their abilties while still hitting you, tactics like this has been going on as long as games have been around in one form another.

I often use Boundless Storm to hide my Crystal Fragment procs, really hard to see my hands glowing under those conditions, thats actually another form of obfuscation thats doing the same thing Animation canceling does(hiding visual feedback from your oppoenent) just doing it in a different way.

Riejael

dday3six wrote: »

Do you have an actual argument based in fact that doesn't involve self aggrandizement and pleas to emotion?

Do you? Do you even have parses to show it even matters? No one has provided them.

Of course you know the double edged sword of posting them would be. And that is the problem, you're motivated by agenda rather than actually wanting to see an improvement, or even a simple change.

dday3six

No let it stay

Riejael wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Do you have an actual argument based in fact that doesn't involve self aggrandizement and pleas to emotion?

Do you? Do you even have parses to show it even matters? No one has provided them.

Of course you know the double edged sword of posting them would be. And that is the problem, you're motivated by agenda rather than actually wanting to see an improvement, or even a simple change.

Without Animation Canceling reactive blocking and dodging would be non-existence. That means a rework for the entirety of combat dynamics would be in order to remove it. That's not simple. Not sure why you think it would be.

What would parses show? Why is the onus on players not advocating for a total combat overhaul to provide parses? You want to show parses, show them. You're starting they would be of some great value to your claims. Provide them.

Just know that accurate data and easy replication are key factor of testing for comparative purposes. There are no fail-safes to account for player skill and experience or to stop AC from happening thus corrupting any results. Those are likely reasons why others don't bother providing parses.

AzuraKin

Yes get rid of it

lol, take away animation cancelling, and you will see 90% of current 30k+ dps drop by at least 67% dps, they will be squishy as hell, and show little - to know knowledge of mechanics.

Lythandra

Yes get rid of it

ESO does quite a few things right. It also does quite a few things very wrong and this is one of them. I do not like the implementation of AC that they have here at all. It feels like cheating, it is cheating. I do it because I have to in order to be effective but I'd rather not have it in game at all. Its a HUGE negative to me.

technohic

Yes get rid of it

I want to change my vote from this thing. Thread is so old. I mean; I would still be for it as far as block still being able to cancel but cancelling the damage and that sort of thing so you can react; but I use it all the time without thinking about it.

Last night; I purposely kept my fingers off my mouse buttons and watched animations play through and my god is it awful. They would need to redo animations to not be so unnecessarily long. And if the goal is to make it more even for less motor skill players, I'd actually double down on animation cancel and an ability that is instant; make it truly instant and have the next ability they press automatically cancel the remaining animation. Would kill resource management compared to light attack and block weaving but it would be stupid easy.

Destruent

No let it stay

AzuraKin wrote: »

lol, take away animation cancelling, and you will see 90% of current 30k+ dps drop by at least 67% dps, they will be squishy as hell, and show little - to know knowledge of mechanics.

one of the biggest *** i've ever seen on this forums.

Wollust

No let it stay

AzuraKin wrote: »

lol, take away animation cancelling, and you will see 90% of current 30k+ dps drop by at least 67% dps, they will be squishy as hell, and show little - to know knowledge of mechanics.

If you think AC gives you that much DPS, I got some bad news for you buddy. And if you think good players are only good because of AC, I got even worse news for you.

But your statement is quite typical for the current debate actually: People that have no idea about the topic just make up numbers and crap to support their claim. Nothing new here, basic argumentation tactics of bads.

Liofa

No let it stay

Guys . I am sure most of you are using animation cancelling . Even if you voted ''Yes get rid of it'' . It is just because you don't know what it actually is or don't know how to do it but do it without realizing it . So I am gonna link here a video . Just watch it and if you are against animation cancelling , don't use anything that is mentioned in the video . If you are against animation cancelling , learn how to do it so you do NOT to use it accidentally . It is a short and nice video . Here you go :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLZzGoPp9Ug

dday3six

No let it stay

AzuraKin wrote: »

lol, take away animation cancelling, and you will see 90% of current 30k+ dps drop by at least 67% dps, they will be squishy as hell, and show little - to know knowledge of mechanics.

Did it hurt when you pulled that out?

To skip boss fight mechanics a group must first learn the mechanics in order to strategize methods to maximize DPS output so said group can potentially skip mechanics. DPS ouput is not a blanket application. It's dynamic based on the conditions of the engagement.

AC does not allow players to bypass the GCD of 0.9s per skill use. Additional light and heavy attacks is the main contribution to AC affords a DPS rotation. Those struggle to account for 10% of the total DPS output. In a 30K example that's 3k. Not the 20100 need to make up for 67%. The bulk of DPS in a PVE setting comes from multiple DOTs, whose ticks are completely disconnected with AC, and a high damage spammable skill used in between DOT refresh cycles.

RazorCaltrops

No let it stay

Still don't understand why casuals are bothered with this.

Others already know it's a game mechanic anyway

idk

No let it stay

CyrusArya wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

I presented my comment as a question for a reason. You know... inviting someone who knows what they're talking about to give me some incite. Or is every question deemed satire on this forum? I was under the impression that animation canceling allows the player to deal more dps. So as much as I appreciate your incite your tone isn't very nice my love.

Sorry not my intention to be spiteful, and it wasn't necessarily directed at you but rather the masses that comment on the concept without understanding it. But yes, cancelling does increase dps. Not because it lets you by pass cast times, but rather because it lets you more fluidly and seamlessly chain actions together to allow combos with less down-time between skills.

This is correct.

idk

No let it stay

AzuraKin wrote: »

lol, take away animation cancelling, and you will see 90% of current 30k+ dps drop by at least 67% dps, they will be squishy as hell, and show little - to know knowledge of mechanics.

Your thoughts added to this thread are humorously wrong. It's really entertaining.

Animation canceling doesn't double a players dps. Not even close.

Oh, and 30k dps is average dps. A moderate player can easily breach that in trials. And the top dps know the mechanics better than most because dead dps are not tops dps.

Lord_Wrath

Yes get rid of it

PvP wise its just cheap. You hear two clanks, but youre dead to a larger list of attacks because the game doesnt give you time to react, let alone react on time. You see your health dropped but you were already dead before you can be defensive. Even as a magsorc I have plenty of moments where spamming shields through cancellers doesnt keep me alive.

Good playing should revolve around acting and reacting based off visual combat. You see a frag, you block or dodge. Getting knocked down and instantly blown up is old and not fun. I don't see it as skillful, aside from learning how to do it. But to compete, you must learn. So what does everyone do? They run and hide and then burst you with cancellation. Just cheap, no honor in that, quit being a sissy and fight and feel good about your kills.

Miss_Morphine

No let it stay

If you can not block or dodge before your animation is finished - which would be the case without AC - the combat is dead.

I don't even with this thread...