Champion System Clarification

GunemCleric · January 2015

Akhratos wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

Akhratos wrote: »

Nightreaver wrote: »

@Akhratos
When I made the comment about people taking 8 months to go from VR1 to VR14 it was more in response to comments like

I ask you or anyone to explain to me how it is remotely fair that a vr1 after 20-40 hours of play should receive the same amount of CP as I will after 50-100x (2400 hours) the play time.

My issue is that anyone that was able to go from level 1 to level 50 in 20-40 hours should have no problem going from VR1 to Vr14 in 40-80 hours, not 2400 hours. Your only completing two additional Alliance zones vs. the one you just completed with roughly the same number of quests and objectives in each.

I completed them before the nerfs and in many cases actually found VR levels easier and faster to compete since I had a faster horse, much better gear, many more abilities and was much more familiar with how to play the class.

Though I agree with what you said (but including Crafting as well)

@Akhratos
Maybe because they started playing less and less the content to get to VR14, decided to pvp, roam around, achievement hunting...

I also feel the same could be said of anyone playing from level 1 to 14.

So if someone is comparing a VR14 to VR1 then I personally feel that an award based on the exp that is required to go from VR1 to VR14 would be more in line than one based on total time played as a VR 14 without any consideration of total time played by a VR1.

I really think both your figures, 20-40 hours for level50 and 2400 hours for VR1-14 are out of reality. At least for what I experienced. Are you aware 2400 hours is like 100 days of real-time played? If you play 8 hours a day, you are saying that it would have taken 300 days (like 10 months) to make it from VR1 to VR14.

I am sorry but thats just out of fantasy.

I agree with you though, and that was my main point, that VR zones were easier for me (faster horse, better knowledge of class, mechanics, builds) than normal one. I soloed every Dolmen and WorldBoss wich I could not do during the 1-50 travel.

Craglorn aside, I experienced that completing each of Silver/Gold alliance took me shorter than the first one, but thats only me. Of course, it didnt take me that much but about 6-8 hours per zone in Silver/Gold.

I really do not care what you think as I know for a fact you can get to 50 in ~20 hours as I know 2 people who have done it and will have have done it on one character by Sunday as additional proof (i do not trust ZOS to do anything right anymore so i will position my remaining toons at vr1 to prepare to do the quests). I tried power questing and someone grinding at same time in our guild caught me and my partner at level 20 in half the time, or about 6 hours. I switched to grinding with a partner and 10 hours later lvl 40, another and another ~5 hours I have no doubt i will be at level 50. I will miss the 20 hour mark by a few hours, but then i have been harvesting Alchemy ingredients and selling the drops.

And i never said it took 2400 hours to get to v14, what I said is that I personally have 2400 hours between 2 v14 characters alone, i was v14 on one char 2 days after v14 was added, i had already done 1000 quests at that point and did grind from v12 to v14 as i did not want to spend next 3 weeks trying to organize a group between guild activities just to do the few hours worth of quests in upper crag that probably would not have gotten me to v14 anyway.

Since then I have not played less or slower, which is to say if we go by amount of incidental XP since the ZOS promise, then... If we go by quest completion, then again ... I seriously doubt I am unique and i know of several others who have continued to play and chase achievements and almost certainly gained large amounts of XP just playing whether vet dungeons, lighting camp fires, PvP, or daily quests AND have also already done nearly all the quests possible in the game.

I suggest everyone level their alts to vet 1 as soon as possible, as if the CP points are sooooooo powerful that ZOS cannot actually convert appropriately, yet at the same time they are sooooooo easy to get, it means if you cannot or do not take the time to quest for as many CP points as possible then you will be quickly out classed by those people who do (yet another glaring fallacy in the CP progression system).

Oh, so now you change the subject from how much it takes to complete your own alliance compared to veteran alliances into a powergrinding matter.

I am the one who do not care about you anymore.

2400 hours to make VR1-VR14 is also through powergrinding? Such a lame argument can not stand very long. I am sorry I bursted your bubble.

Thanks for the bible, I had a lot of fun not reading it at all.

I can tell you were unable to read it or previous posts. I cannot, after reading what you wrote, figure out what you are talking about. Try a coherent rebuttal (after reading) and them maybe I can point out what you missed. You may also try reading the other thread.

Edit: one more thing...I already said one could go v1 to v14 in 20 hours (actually meant v1 to v12, probably ~4 more hours to v14)

Grao · January 2015

Hmm, my previous message got snipped away as spam, so here goes another try

@ZOS_GinaBruno seems to be back from her vacations (She posted on Reddit about ESO winning the MMO Competition). WB Gina! I am really hoping for a new and more informative post from ZoS... I think there are enough of us worried and upset that it deserves an answer :P

Lettigall · January 2015

Grao wrote: »

Hmm, my previous message got snipped away as spam, so here goes another try

@ZOS_GinaBruno seems to be back from her vacations (She posted on Reddit about ESO winning the MMO Competition). WB Gina! I am really hoping for a new and more informative post from ZoS... I think there are enough of us worried and upset that it deserves an answer :P

I doubt that she knows anything more. Devs are still on vacation and apparently they aren't very keen to share information to CM's and support.

Best case scenario on monday there will be some new clarification which clarifies nothing.

Grao · January 2015

Lettigall wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Hmm, my previous message got snipped away as spam, so here goes another try

@ZOS_GinaBruno seems to be back from her vacations (She posted on Reddit about ESO winning the MMO Competition). WB Gina! I am really hoping for a new and more informative post from ZoS... I think there are enough of us worried and upset that it deserves an answer :P

I doubt that she knows anything more. Devs are still on vacation and apparently they aren't very keen to share information to CM's and support.

Best case scenario on monday there will be some new clarification which clarifies nothing.

I really hope you are wrong....... But I suspect you are right >.>

DeathDealer19 · January 2015

5 vr14s and hundreds of hours spent loving the game to get cheated. everyone starts at 30 is kinda bullcrap. Im so tired of hearing "we don't want people pulling away from others"..... If ive played eso for 500 hrs and have 5 vr14s, I SHOULD BE far and away from someone who grinded to vr1 in what 5 hours? like WTF

DeathDealer19 · January 2015

also, with no maintenance today, am I wasting my time downloading the PTS hoping update 6 will be on the PTS today??? I have seen 0 clarification and would like ZOS to reply please. is update 6 hitting the PTS today? been nearly a month with 0 maintenance to clear up the relentless "endless loading screens" and random "oh you were fighting the serpent, well now youre at the login screen randomly..... oh yeah now you have to spend 12 minutes running the length of sanctum ophidia because we couldn't simply put a wayshrine in trials to deal with the rampant crashes for no apparent reason, yet we expect people to clear SO in 33 min....."

DeathDealer19 · January 2015

"Also, when phase 3 of the Champion System goes live with Update 6, all accounts that have at least one Veteran Rank character on them will automatically receive 30 Champion Points. These 30 Champion Points, though applied to your account, are distributed in full to each individual character on your account, just as Champion Points you earn are. So, if you have 5 characters, at least one of which is Veteran Rank 1 or higher, all five of those characters will have 30 CP to spend. You will not be awarded more Champion Points for having five Veteran Characters versus just one. You will also be able to begin earning Champion Points on any Veteran Rank character from that point forward."

what happened to were tracking xp gain so youll be rewarded for being faithful to ESO? have been here since day 1 of early access and ill be damned if youre gonna tell me some newbie who got the game for xmas and grinded to vr1 in 5 hours deserves to be on the same plane as me for CP.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · January 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

Layenem wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If one champion point is supposed to take you 4 hours to get, and ZOS' current design is for one veteran rank to take you 10 hours, 30 champion points equal 12 veteran ranks. That is only slightly less than current maximum level, and more than Cadwell's silver and gold content was designed for.

So, if you are worried that you did unrepeatable quest content for naught, you are mistaken. You already get more than you earned in silver and gold content.

If you are worried that you aren't adequately compensated for your 8 V14 characters, that is only marginally the case. All of your characters will have access to champion points equivalent to 12 veteran ranks. And until veteran ranks are removed, you will remain more powerful than lower veteran rank characters.

Nobody loses anything.

The only reason I can see people being upset is that any veteran player gets the same points they get, which they supposedly "worked hard for" and others didn't. But that's just petty in my opinion.

The concern is the exp is not replaceable. While we went ahead and expended the exp others will be able to use that exp. Objective quests and Achievement exp are amazing sources of exp that we no longer have access to that others do. It's a difference in EXP now... not anything else.

At the end of the day it looks like this: In one month after 1.6 most players have all of Caldwell's Silver and Gold complete. Half of the players were able to use the exp earned towards champion points, the other half were not because they completed the content under the confirmation that they'd get the credit forwarded.

THAT is a huge gap. It's lost exp that won't come back. If you don't understand this concept then there's really nothing else to discuss. Especially since a "we're not really sure" would have kept most of us from doing the silver and gold and just grinding through boss exploits like the other half did. We won't have access to those same exploits but they will have access to our exp loss.

Again, the silver and gold content doesn't even amount to 30 champion points. Out of 3600. It's absolutely minuscule, there is no "huge gap".

If someone after 1.6 decides to do silver and gold content, great, have fun. But we can already suspect this will not be the best way to earn champion points. It certainly has never been the best way to earn exp. So what are you going to do with your V14 all-quests-maxed-out character? Just sit on your hands and cry or go play the game?

What one month after 1.6 will really look like is low veteran characters that dally through silver and gold quest content, increasing their champion points at a snail's pace compared to V14 characters that are still much stronger and can farm high level repetable content and gain exp at a much faster rate.

If someone refuses to do repeatable content to gain champion points, they never would have gotten very far in any case. The current outrage over not even 1% of the new progression system is absolutely ridiculous.

This is categorically false on every point, I'm not sure if you are trolling, ignorant or flat out lying.

badmojo0777b14_ESO wrote: »

this isn't about the 30 points being enough for a VR14, this isn't about 30 points for a brand new Vr1, this isnt even about the supposed tracking of our gained xp we were told by MariaAliprando. this all boils down to the fact that VR14s with all of their progression being treated exactly like a brand new VR1 come time for the roll back. what genius decided that giving every VR toon 30 points was going to go over well? we are talking months of progression since Vr1, we are not equal, BY A LONG SHOT. if a VR14 gets 30 points how in the hell do you justify giving a vr1 the exact same. its unacceptable, its LAZY and most serious players will not tolerate it

^ this pretty much sums it up, if they roll it out ass is, it's going to leave a VERY bad taste in my mouth. I wouldn't say its months of work though, but for my 5 VR toons that are all over V1 and 2 at V14 it is compounded by the fact that I did cadwells silver and gold about 100 times and I won't even get compensated for doing it once.

Yeah we understand that you made the game WAY to easy and that hordes of semi casuals got to max level and were bored in weeks but that's zero excuse to treat your long term dedicated customers like a fresh scrub. I want my money back for the past 6 mos and or some other compensation if you plan on resetting all my progression to zero.

Akhratos · January 2015

GunemCleric wrote: »

Akhratos wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

Akhratos wrote: »

Nightreaver wrote: »

@Akhratos
When I made the comment about people taking 8 months to go from VR1 to VR14 it was more in response to comments like

I ask you or anyone to explain to me how it is remotely fair that a vr1 after 20-40 hours of play should receive the same amount of CP as I will after 50-100x (2400 hours) the play time.

My issue is that anyone that was able to go from level 1 to level 50 in 20-40 hours should have no problem going from VR1 to Vr14 in 40-80 hours, not 2400 hours. Your only completing two additional Alliance zones vs. the one you just completed with roughly the same number of quests and objectives in each.

I completed them before the nerfs and in many cases actually found VR levels easier and faster to compete since I had a faster horse, much better gear, many more abilities and was much more familiar with how to play the class.

Though I agree with what you said (but including Crafting as well)

@Akhratos
Maybe because they started playing less and less the content to get to VR14, decided to pvp, roam around, achievement hunting...

I also feel the same could be said of anyone playing from level 1 to 14.

So if someone is comparing a VR14 to VR1 then I personally feel that an award based on the exp that is required to go from VR1 to VR14 would be more in line than one based on total time played as a VR 14 without any consideration of total time played by a VR1.

I really think both your figures, 20-40 hours for level50 and 2400 hours for VR1-14 are out of reality. At least for what I experienced. Are you aware 2400 hours is like 100 days of real-time played? If you play 8 hours a day, you are saying that it would have taken 300 days (like 10 months) to make it from VR1 to VR14.

I am sorry but thats just out of fantasy.

I agree with you though, and that was my main point, that VR zones were easier for me (faster horse, better knowledge of class, mechanics, builds) than normal one. I soloed every Dolmen and WorldBoss wich I could not do during the 1-50 travel.

Craglorn aside, I experienced that completing each of Silver/Gold alliance took me shorter than the first one, but thats only me. Of course, it didnt take me that much but about 6-8 hours per zone in Silver/Gold.

I really do not care what you think as I know for a fact you can get to 50 in ~20 hours as I know 2 people who have done it and will have have done it on one character by Sunday as additional proof (i do not trust ZOS to do anything right anymore so i will position my remaining toons at vr1 to prepare to do the quests). I tried power questing and someone grinding at same time in our guild caught me and my partner at level 20 in half the time, or about 6 hours. I switched to grinding with a partner and 10 hours later lvl 40, another and another ~5 hours I have no doubt i will be at level 50. I will miss the 20 hour mark by a few hours, but then i have been harvesting Alchemy ingredients and selling the drops.

And i never said it took 2400 hours to get to v14, what I said is that I personally have 2400 hours between 2 v14 characters alone, i was v14 on one char 2 days after v14 was added, i had already done 1000 quests at that point and did grind from v12 to v14 as i did not want to spend next 3 weeks trying to organize a group between guild activities just to do the few hours worth of quests in upper crag that probably would not have gotten me to v14 anyway.

Since then I have not played less or slower, which is to say if we go by amount of incidental XP since the ZOS promise, then... If we go by quest completion, then again ... I seriously doubt I am unique and i know of several others who have continued to play and chase achievements and almost certainly gained large amounts of XP just playing whether vet dungeons, lighting camp fires, PvP, or daily quests AND have also already done nearly all the quests possible in the game.

I suggest everyone level their alts to vet 1 as soon as possible, as if the CP points are sooooooo powerful that ZOS cannot actually convert appropriately, yet at the same time they are sooooooo easy to get, it means if you cannot or do not take the time to quest for as many CP points as possible then you will be quickly out classed by those people who do (yet another glaring fallacy in the CP progression system).

Oh, so now you change the subject from how much it takes to complete your own alliance compared to veteran alliances into a powergrinding matter.

I am the one who do not care about you anymore.

2400 hours to make VR1-VR14 is also through powergrinding? Such a lame argument can not stand very long. I am sorry I bursted your bubble.

Thanks for the bible, I had a lot of fun not reading it at all.

I can tell you were unable to read it or previous posts. I cannot, after reading what you wrote, figure out what you are talking about. Try a coherent rebuttal (after reading) and them maybe I can point out what you missed. You may also try reading the other thread.

Edit: one more thing...I already said one could go v1 to v14 in 20 hours (actually meant v1 to v12, probably ~4 more hours to v14)

Not unable, I just get bored very quickly of bible writers who like jumping from a story to the next as fast as their arguments are demonstrated to be inconsistent.

Kraven · January 2015

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If one champion point is supposed to take you 4 hours to get, and ZOS' current design is for one veteran rank to take you 10 hours, 30 champion points equal 12 veteran ranks. That is only slightly less than current maximum level, and more than Cadwell's silver and gold content was designed for.

So, if you are worried that you did unrepeatable quest content for naught, you are mistaken. You already get more than you earned in silver and gold content.

If you are worried that you aren't adequately compensated for your 8 V14 characters, that is only marginally the case. All of your characters will have access to champion points equivalent to 12 veteran ranks. And until veteran ranks are removed, you will remain more powerful than lower veteran rank characters.

Nobody loses anything.

The only reason I can see people being upset is that any veteran player gets the same points they get, which they supposedly "worked hard for" and others didn't. But that's just petty in my opinion.

I have 2 vr14, one of which has completed 1105 quests and has a "/played" that sums to over 1909+ hours (79 days, 13 hours, 43 minutes,and 33 seconds) the other 594+ hours (24 days,18 hours,18 minutes,and 58 seconds) that means I have averaged 8-10 hours a day since release. It takes *maybe* 40 hours doing all the quests to get to lvl 50, 20 hours if grinding. I personally had a vet since late April.

By your math I should get 500-600 CP.

I ask you or anyone to explain to me how it is remotely fair that a vr1 after 20-40 hours of play should receive the same amount of CP as I will after 50-100x (2400 hours) the play time.

I have 3 accounts, 24 DC characters I planned to level up. I love the game, but now i have to convince myself that I want to actually keep 3 accounts and then I will have to spend the next month in the game GRINDING a character on my other 2 accounts to get at least the 30 CP for them, since it is free points to the players who merely get lvl 50.

Then i have to GRIND the 5 non-vets on my main account to vet so that I can actually be able to gain CP via the exceptionally boring and poorly designed fetch-quests when I finally have the pleasure of being totally screwed with the 1.6 CP system.

My next month in the game with be an excruciating grind in order to position my characters to be able to grind CP in order to stay competitive with people who have far more time on their hands (and for some reason stayed after this debacle)

So please @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ or any of you defenders of the ZOS lie, please explain how exactly the CP system is fair. I know for a fact that that there are many other out there that have played more than me.

I have worked very hard to encourage a lot of people in my guild and others to stay subbed. There is nothing I can say to ZOS blatantly lying to player base and punishing loyal players, how do I argue or convince someone to stay after that. If it was not for all my friends and how well my guild is doing I would likely take this as a sign to leave. I think the already laughable 800k player base may decline further after this gets to the vast majority of players who do not read forums.

btw, I have a wife and work more than 40 hours a week (my time is limited and valuable) and highly educated systems engineer (please do not use fallacy, false math, or technology-lacking explanations)

the cp system is as fair as rewarding you twice for running content once prior to 1.6 , while only rewarding those who run that same content after 1.6 one time . as that is exactly what you are asking for , the only thing that makes what your asking for even remotely valid is that stupid promise made by ZOS (the 30 points covers them in case of legal actions ) .

I missed something. What are you talking about? I do not think i am asking for extra, but if they replace (keyword replace) the existing system, the it should immediately translate ESPECIALLY since they told us it would. If this phase was simply the 30 CP to kick things off, BUT the next phase, provided us a reasonable, equivalent compensation that correlates to that progression when they remove the VR progression, then fine.

But, to tell us they are changing everything, but "Continue to play! We are tracking your XP as you advance your way through Veteran Ranks and even past VR14..." meant they not only lied, but mislead players and misrepresented their intentions. Many would have unsubbed (i know this beyond a doubt, because I pointed out that "statement" when some were trying to decide) others would have stopped questing (i know this beyond a doubt for same reasons).

I am not happy that my game time is going to be equivalent to 20 hours of playtime (1-v1 ~= 20 hours). I am not happy that there is no reasonable way to gain CP on my 2 mains, daily quests are NOT an option, the vast majority of the quests in the game are a yawn fest, daily quests downright suck, only a ZOS or perhaps a sadist would suggest such an asinine solution.

And "rewarding you twice for running content once" what do you mean, you realize that VR is going away? and that those quests cannot, for the vast majority of cases, cannot be redone? So in the next Champion Point phase includes removing all VR progression (about 600 quests worth exp, and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements), but all you get 30 CP, which is what a vr1 gets who may never have even finished the game (but I agree that VR1 should get something)? It would be torture to have to redo those ~600 quests, but now we will *have* to do the ~300 quests on our other characters (or grind 20x hours and all the goodwill that brings) in order to get to the level to do those ~600 quests ( and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements)

As pointed out, more than once, if properly converting progression that rewards for veteran ranks is somehow soooo imbalanced then perhaps ZOS has already made a mistake (sound like the vr system?), whats next? Are we going to get halfway though CP system or say 1000 CP, then ZOS decides we go to a "SP" (Superfun Points) system, , but "Continue to play! We are tracking your XP/CP...", but then they give you 24 SP "cause...reasons" and remove the 1000 CP you earned.

When ZOS made that (very stupid) promise they also added the caveat that there would be a cap that was yet to be determined .
You choose to consume all of that non repeatable content with out knowing what the cap would be , and now your asking for more rewards from that already completed content . That leads to the rewarding twice for running content once comment .

Hope that clears it up for you

Here's the crux. It's not rewarding twice. In fact it's removing the initial reward all together, so any new V1 is getting awarded for doing the silver and gold quests while anyone who finished it previously is having their awarded xp just flat removed.

No one is asking to be rewarded twice for the same content, just that the once isn't erased completely.

Kraven · January 2015

It just doesn't add up to make any sense at all. No matter how you slice it. Previously it took substantially more than it currently does to go from V1-V14, even now you're looking at 14m xp erased. Plain and simply erased as if you never earned it at all.

Undaunted passives weren't the first but they're the most recent example of straight inconsideration for those of us who play more. This CP fiasco following right on the heels of that isn't just showing a lack of consideration but an out right dismissal of a large portion of players.

The equalization is the issue. We are not equal. We are not equal because I already spent the time doing all of that content. The time I spent, the xp I earned, the content I completed and the achievements I've gotten are being ignored and erased. Where a new V1 is going to be rewarded for doing everything I have already done, the reward I earned is being erased and removed.

You expect people to be happy about that? To just "deal with it"?

Faulgor · January 2015

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Layenem wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If one champion point is supposed to take you 4 hours to get, and ZOS' current design is for one veteran rank to take you 10 hours, 30 champion points equal 12 veteran ranks. That is only slightly less than current maximum level, and more than Cadwell's silver and gold content was designed for.

So, if you are worried that you did unrepeatable quest content for naught, you are mistaken. You already get more than you earned in silver and gold content.

If you are worried that you aren't adequately compensated for your 8 V14 characters, that is only marginally the case. All of your characters will have access to champion points equivalent to 12 veteran ranks. And until veteran ranks are removed, you will remain more powerful than lower veteran rank characters.

Nobody loses anything.

The only reason I can see people being upset is that any veteran player gets the same points they get, which they supposedly "worked hard for" and others didn't. But that's just petty in my opinion.

The concern is the exp is not replaceable. While we went ahead and expended the exp others will be able to use that exp. Objective quests and Achievement exp are amazing sources of exp that we no longer have access to that others do. It's a difference in EXP now... not anything else.

At the end of the day it looks like this: In one month after 1.6 most players have all of Caldwell's Silver and Gold complete. Half of the players were able to use the exp earned towards champion points, the other half were not because they completed the content under the confirmation that they'd get the credit forwarded.

THAT is a huge gap. It's lost exp that won't come back. If you don't understand this concept then there's really nothing else to discuss. Especially since a "we're not really sure" would have kept most of us from doing the silver and gold and just grinding through boss exploits like the other half did. We won't have access to those same exploits but they will have access to our exp loss.

Again, the silver and gold content doesn't even amount to 30 champion points. Out of 3600. It's absolutely minuscule, there is no "huge gap".

If someone after 1.6 decides to do silver and gold content, great, have fun. But we can already suspect this will not be the best way to earn champion points. It certainly has never been the best way to earn exp. So what are you going to do with your V14 all-quests-maxed-out character? Just sit on your hands and cry or go play the game?

What one month after 1.6 will really look like is low veteran characters that dally through silver and gold quest content, increasing their champion points at a snail's pace compared to V14 characters that are still much stronger and can farm high level repetable content and gain exp at a much faster rate.

If someone refuses to do repeatable content to gain champion points, they never would have gotten very far in any case. The current outrage over not even 1% of the new progression system is absolutely ridiculous.

This is categorically false on every point, I'm not sure if you are trolling, ignorant or flat out lying.

Then you won't have trouble pointing out what is "categorically false", right?

Robocles · January 2015

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If one champion point is supposed to take you 4 hours to get, and ZOS' current design is for one veteran rank to take you 10 hours, 30 champion points equal 12 veteran ranks. That is only slightly less than current maximum level, and more than Cadwell's silver and gold content was designed for.

So, if you are worried that you did unrepeatable quest content for naught, you are mistaken. You already get more than you earned in silver and gold content.

If you are worried that you aren't adequately compensated for your 8 V14 characters, that is only marginally the case. All of your characters will have access to champion points equivalent to 12 veteran ranks. And until veteran ranks are removed, you will remain more powerful than lower veteran rank characters.

Nobody loses anything.

The only reason I can see people being upset is that any veteran player gets the same points they get, which they supposedly "worked hard for" and others didn't. But that's just petty in my opinion.

I have 2 vr14, one of which has completed 1105 quests and has a "/played" that sums to over 1909+ hours (79 days, 13 hours, 43 minutes,and 33 seconds) the other 594+ hours (24 days,18 hours,18 minutes,and 58 seconds) that means I have averaged 8-10 hours a day since release. It takes *maybe* 40 hours doing all the quests to get to lvl 50, 20 hours if grinding. I personally had a vet since late April.

By your math I should get 500-600 CP.

I ask you or anyone to explain to me how it is remotely fair that a vr1 after 20-40 hours of play should receive the same amount of CP as I will after 50-100x (2400 hours) the play time.

I have 3 accounts, 24 DC characters I planned to level up. I love the game, but now i have to convince myself that I want to actually keep 3 accounts and then I will have to spend the next month in the game GRINDING a character on my other 2 accounts to get at least the 30 CP for them, since it is free points to the players who merely get lvl 50.

Then i have to GRIND the 5 non-vets on my main account to vet so that I can actually be able to gain CP via the exceptionally boring and poorly designed fetch-quests when I finally have the pleasure of being totally screwed with the 1.6 CP system.

My next month in the game with be an excruciating grind in order to position my characters to be able to grind CP in order to stay competitive with people who have far more time on their hands (and for some reason stayed after this debacle)

So please @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ or any of you defenders of the ZOS lie, please explain how exactly the CP system is fair. I know for a fact that that there are many other out there that have played more than me.

I have worked very hard to encourage a lot of people in my guild and others to stay subbed. There is nothing I can say to ZOS blatantly lying to player base and punishing loyal players, how do I argue or convince someone to stay after that. If it was not for all my friends and how well my guild is doing I would likely take this as a sign to leave. I think the already laughable 800k player base may decline further after this gets to the vast majority of players who do not read forums.

btw, I have a wife and work more than 40 hours a week (my time is limited and valuable) and highly educated systems engineer (please do not use fallacy, false math, or technology-lacking explanations)

the cp system is as fair as rewarding you twice for running content once prior to 1.6 , while only rewarding those who run that same content after 1.6 one time . as that is exactly what you are asking for , the only thing that makes what your asking for even remotely valid is that stupid promise made by ZOS (the 30 points covers them in case of legal actions ) .

I missed something. What are you talking about? I do not think i am asking for extra, but if they replace (keyword replace) the existing system, the it should immediately translate ESPECIALLY since they told us it would. If this phase was simply the 30 CP to kick things off, BUT the next phase, provided us a reasonable, equivalent compensation that correlates to that progression when they remove the VR progression, then fine.

But, to tell us they are changing everything, but "Continue to play! We are tracking your XP as you advance your way through Veteran Ranks and even past VR14..." meant they not only lied, but mislead players and misrepresented their intentions. Many would have unsubbed (i know this beyond a doubt, because I pointed out that "statement" when some were trying to decide) others would have stopped questing (i know this beyond a doubt for same reasons).

I am not happy that my game time is going to be equivalent to 20 hours of playtime (1-v1 ~= 20 hours). I am not happy that there is no reasonable way to gain CP on my 2 mains, daily quests are NOT an option, the vast majority of the quests in the game are a yawn fest, daily quests downright suck, only a ZOS or perhaps a sadist would suggest such an asinine solution.

And "rewarding you twice for running content once" what do you mean, you realize that VR is going away? and that those quests cannot, for the vast majority of cases, cannot be redone? So in the next Champion Point phase includes removing all VR progression (about 600 quests worth exp, and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements), but all you get 30 CP, which is what a vr1 gets who may never have even finished the game (but I agree that VR1 should get something)? It would be torture to have to redo those ~600 quests, but now we will *have* to do the ~300 quests on our other characters (or grind 20x hours and all the goodwill that brings) in order to get to the level to do those ~600 quests ( and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements)

As pointed out, more than once, if properly converting progression that rewards for veteran ranks is somehow soooo imbalanced then perhaps ZOS has already made a mistake (sound like the vr system?), whats next? Are we going to get halfway though CP system or say 1000 CP, then ZOS decides we go to a "SP" (Superfun Points) system, , but "Continue to play! We are tracking your XP/CP...", but then they give you 24 SP "cause...reasons" and remove the 1000 CP you earned.

When ZOS made that (very stupid) promise they also added the caveat that there would be a cap that was yet to be determined .
You choose to consume all of that non repeatable content with out knowing what the cap would be , and now your asking for more rewards from that already completed content . That leads to the rewarding twice for running content once comment .

Hope that clears it up for you

As much as I hate wading back into this...

@DanielMaxwell‌

Go back and read what was actually stated. The XP BEYOND VR14 was what was subject to a cap, not the XP up to VR14.

But, nice job just changing the facts to suit your argument.

Grao · January 2015

Still no answer from Zenimax...

Robocles · January 2015

Kraven wrote: »

It just doesn't add up to make any sense at all. No matter how you slice it. Previously it took substantially more than it currently does to go from V1-V14, even now you're looking at 14m xp erased. Plain and simply erased as if you never earned it at all.

Undaunted passives weren't the first but they're the most recent example of straight inconsideration for those of us who play more. This CP fiasco following right on the heels of that isn't just showing a lack of consideration but an out right dismissal of a large portion of players.

The equalization is the issue. We are not equal. We are not equal because I already spent the time doing all of that content. The time I spent, the xp I earned, the content I completed and the achievements I've gotten are being ignored and erased. Where a new V1 is going to be rewarded for doing everything I have already done, the reward I earned is being erased and removed.

You expect people to be happy about that? To just "deal with it"?

I agree entirely. The fact that they won't give credit for content already completed when they do a major change to the system that tracks it boggles the mind. And, before someone says how hard it is, it isn't. The quest completions and achieves are all in their databases. Do some damn work and give credit for them. All this time them saying "Play your VR characters, you'll get credit" and "We'll track XP, don't worry", then finally telling us the truth only after it slipped out is just plain dishonest.

But, while they will make a boatload on the consoles, their reputation as an MMO developer is done. I hope they can keep this game going long enough that it was worthwhile to drag their name through the mud for a year.

Enodoc · January 2015

Grao wrote: »

Still no answer from Zenimax...

About what? I don't think there's anything left for them to say based on their current plans.

Everyone gets 30CP when Update 6 is released if they have a Veteran Rank character. (per Gina)
30CP is it, all, everything, no more to be added later when they remove Vet Ranks completely. (per Kai)

Unless you want them to address some of the suggestions made here and in other places for them to change those plans, but they would have to talk to the other devs about that for a while longer yet before they can do that.

grimjim398 · January 2015

I have three Vet level characters, two at 4 and one at 7. I am continuing to play them. I will deal with what the Champion system brings and am not really worried about it. Having actually read the original post, it's clear to me that the veteran levels are still going to be valuable for a while longer and so I'll go on earning them. I'm not looking for perfect justice, I just want a nice game to play, and this is one.

I'd prefer that the developers be careful with their implementation of this new system rather than rush into it in a glib way that rewards the upper tiers of players too much and creates a permanent elite up there. I think making a good fair system for all players is much more important than satisfying the players who reached VR 14 first.

But meanwhile I'm playing the game, because a Champion System that is under development might happen a lot more slowly than we think it should, due to problems that arise during its development. And I will try my damnedest to reach VR 14 with one of my characters before the system is fully in. And then I will use the new system and the repeatable content to earn CPs for that character. Adapt or play something else. As always.

DanielMaxwell · January 2015

Robocles wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

GunemCleric wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If one champion point is supposed to take you 4 hours to get, and ZOS' current design is for one veteran rank to take you 10 hours, 30 champion points equal 12 veteran ranks. That is only slightly less than current maximum level, and more than Cadwell's silver and gold content was designed for.

So, if you are worried that you did unrepeatable quest content for naught, you are mistaken. You already get more than you earned in silver and gold content.

If you are worried that you aren't adequately compensated for your 8 V14 characters, that is only marginally the case. All of your characters will have access to champion points equivalent to 12 veteran ranks. And until veteran ranks are removed, you will remain more powerful than lower veteran rank characters.

Nobody loses anything.

The only reason I can see people being upset is that any veteran player gets the same points they get, which they supposedly "worked hard for" and others didn't. But that's just petty in my opinion.

I have 2 vr14, one of which has completed 1105 quests and has a "/played" that sums to over 1909+ hours (79 days, 13 hours, 43 minutes,and 33 seconds) the other 594+ hours (24 days,18 hours,18 minutes,and 58 seconds) that means I have averaged 8-10 hours a day since release. It takes *maybe* 40 hours doing all the quests to get to lvl 50, 20 hours if grinding. I personally had a vet since late April.

By your math I should get 500-600 CP.

I ask you or anyone to explain to me how it is remotely fair that a vr1 after 20-40 hours of play should receive the same amount of CP as I will after 50-100x (2400 hours) the play time.

I have 3 accounts, 24 DC characters I planned to level up. I love the game, but now i have to convince myself that I want to actually keep 3 accounts and then I will have to spend the next month in the game GRINDING a character on my other 2 accounts to get at least the 30 CP for them, since it is free points to the players who merely get lvl 50.

Then i have to GRIND the 5 non-vets on my main account to vet so that I can actually be able to gain CP via the exceptionally boring and poorly designed fetch-quests when I finally have the pleasure of being totally screwed with the 1.6 CP system.

My next month in the game with be an excruciating grind in order to position my characters to be able to grind CP in order to stay competitive with people who have far more time on their hands (and for some reason stayed after this debacle)

So please @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ or any of you defenders of the ZOS lie, please explain how exactly the CP system is fair. I know for a fact that that there are many other out there that have played more than me.

I have worked very hard to encourage a lot of people in my guild and others to stay subbed. There is nothing I can say to ZOS blatantly lying to player base and punishing loyal players, how do I argue or convince someone to stay after that. If it was not for all my friends and how well my guild is doing I would likely take this as a sign to leave. I think the already laughable 800k player base may decline further after this gets to the vast majority of players who do not read forums.

btw, I have a wife and work more than 40 hours a week (my time is limited and valuable) and highly educated systems engineer (please do not use fallacy, false math, or technology-lacking explanations)

the cp system is as fair as rewarding you twice for running content once prior to 1.6 , while only rewarding those who run that same content after 1.6 one time . as that is exactly what you are asking for , the only thing that makes what your asking for even remotely valid is that stupid promise made by ZOS (the 30 points covers them in case of legal actions ) .

I missed something. What are you talking about? I do not think i am asking for extra, but if they replace (keyword replace) the existing system, the it should immediately translate ESPECIALLY since they told us it would. If this phase was simply the 30 CP to kick things off, BUT the next phase, provided us a reasonable, equivalent compensation that correlates to that progression when they remove the VR progression, then fine.

But, to tell us they are changing everything, but "Continue to play! We are tracking your XP as you advance your way through Veteran Ranks and even past VR14..." meant they not only lied, but mislead players and misrepresented their intentions. Many would have unsubbed (i know this beyond a doubt, because I pointed out that "statement" when some were trying to decide) others would have stopped questing (i know this beyond a doubt for same reasons).

I am not happy that my game time is going to be equivalent to 20 hours of playtime (1-v1 ~= 20 hours). I am not happy that there is no reasonable way to gain CP on my 2 mains, daily quests are NOT an option, the vast majority of the quests in the game are a yawn fest, daily quests downright suck, only a ZOS or perhaps a sadist would suggest such an asinine solution.

And "rewarding you twice for running content once" what do you mean, you realize that VR is going away? and that those quests cannot, for the vast majority of cases, cannot be redone? So in the next Champion Point phase includes removing all VR progression (about 600 quests worth exp, and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements), but all you get 30 CP, which is what a vr1 gets who may never have even finished the game (but I agree that VR1 should get something)? It would be torture to have to redo those ~600 quests, but now we will *have* to do the ~300 quests on our other characters (or grind 20x hours and all the goodwill that brings) in order to get to the level to do those ~600 quests ( and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements)

As pointed out, more than once, if properly converting progression that rewards for veteran ranks is somehow soooo imbalanced then perhaps ZOS has already made a mistake (sound like the vr system?), whats next? Are we going to get halfway though CP system or say 1000 CP, then ZOS decides we go to a "SP" (Superfun Points) system, , but "Continue to play! We are tracking your XP/CP...", but then they give you 24 SP "cause...reasons" and remove the 1000 CP you earned.

When ZOS made that (very stupid) promise they also added the caveat that there would be a cap that was yet to be determined .
You choose to consume all of that non repeatable content with out knowing what the cap would be , and now your asking for more rewards from that already completed content . That leads to the rewarding twice for running content once comment .

Hope that clears it up for you

As much as I hate wading back into this...

@DanielMaxwell‌

Go back and read what was actually stated. The XP BEYOND VR14 was what was subject to a cap, not the XP up to VR14.

But, nice job just changing the facts to suit your argument.

I guess you mean this question and its answer from Oct3

Should players that are VR1+ still work towards VR12 or should they just wait until the new changes.
Continue to play! We are tracking your XP as you advance your way through Veteran Ranks and even past VR14. When the Champion System comes out we will reward you points right away based on the amount of XP you have earned up to a cap. In general, most people won’t reach the cap and we do not know what that cap is yet. We're still working out that value and making sure to take a look at the XP you all are earning.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1303290/#Comment_1303290

No fact changing on my part .

eventide03b14a_ESO · January 2015

Anex wrote: »

Wait, so I'm basically going to be screwed over when this comes out because I worked my butt off and did ALL the quests (well nearly all, I'm almost done) going for Master Adventurer? This doesn't sit well. We were told we would be back-credited.

At first I thought people were overreacting and misunderstanding, but now I'm genuinely worried.

This is the main point of contention. And yet there are so many people who log on to do god knows what that seem completely oblivious as to why this bothers us.

eventide03b14a_ESO · January 2015

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

badmojo0777b14_ESO wrote: »

i can get over the "recorded xp" promise, I understand awarding to many points can hurt the system, but rolling back a 6 month v14 to the same point as brand new VR1 is COMPLETE HORSE CRAP. if ZOS initially intended to give 30 points to VR14s, cool, but what DIMWHIT decided hey! lets give all VR toons 30 points!, they'll love that!..uh NO, I will not be rolled back to the same point as a brand new vr1,with zero compensation for my MANY hours of further progression that cannot be replaced. if ZOS originally intended on giving 30 points to VR14s, and less to those characters of lower level they should go back to that, its not like they have a problem going back on their word, OBVIOUSLY.

in some respects, giving CPs to all VR1+ does have its merits- its not a lot, it gives more exposure to a system to ensure it actually works (yes we are th paying testers for the CS), its one time only so it would be a decent morale booster for active players. why thirty? i may have misunderstood it, but it sounds like there are 3 trees to spend them in so thats 10 points per tree.

i can't justify giving the same to vr1-14 though

Anyone who cares that much will play it on the PTS before it's live anyway. That's what the test server is for. Those that can't be bothered to do that have no reason to gripe they don't get 30 CP to test out the system.

SainguinLibras · January 2015

I'm wondering if they're going to remove Cadwell's Silver/Gold with the removal of VR. I really hope not because I haven't got a chance to complete them.

Enodoc · January 2015

SainguinLibras wrote: »

I'm wondering if they're going to remove Cadwell's Silver/Gold with the removal of VR. I really hope not because I haven't got a chance to complete them.

Personally, I doubt it. They will almost definitely have to rework it, but they're not just going to remove 200 hours of content.

DanielMaxwell · January 2015

SainguinLibras wrote: »

I'm wondering if they're going to remove Cadwell's Silver/Gold with the removal of VR. I really hope not because I haven't got a chance to complete them.

Unlikely , but they will be reworking the rewards from them to be inline for the new champion system

static_recharge · January 2015

I have a question from the other side of the spectrum. Don't know if it was already asked as there are many pages to this thread. When 1.6 actually goes live and everyone gets their 30 CP for having at least one V1+ character on their account, what will happen to new players or players that haven't quite made it to V1+ yet? When they finally reach V1+ will they be automatically awarded 30 CP? Or is this a one time deal upon release of 1.6?

Thanks in advance for any information.

DanielMaxwell · January 2015

static_recharge wrote: »

I have a question from the other side of the spectrum. Don't know if it was already asked as there are many pages to this thread. When 1.6 actually goes live and everyone gets their 30 CP for having at least one V1+ character on their account, what will happen to new players or players that haven't quite made it to V1+ yet? When they finally reach V1+ will they be automatically awarded 30 CP? Or is this a one time deal upon release of 1.6?

Thanks in advance for any information.

it is a one time award , no one who does not have a VR1 and up character on their account(each account for those with multiple accounts) will receive any CP.

when 1.6 goes live if your account has at least 1 VR1 or higher you receive 30 CP's

when 1.6 goes live if your account has zero VR characters you receive zero CP's .

ZOS is rewarding players twice for running content once , in regards to the non-repeatable content , and progressing players in a system that is not even in the game yet , in regards to those who focused on the repeatable content .
Should prove very interesting if they ever release an expansion pack for this game as they will have introduced a precedent for rewarding players twice .

Grao · January 2015

static_recharge wrote: »

I have a question from the other side of the spectrum. Don't know if it was already asked as there are many pages to this thread. When 1.6 actually goes live and everyone gets their 30 CP for having at least one V1+ character on their account, what will happen to new players or players that haven't quite made it to V1+ yet? When they finally reach V1+ will they be automatically awarded 30 CP? Or is this a one time deal upon release of 1.6?

Thanks in advance for any information.

If you don't have a veteran character to your account when 1.6 is released you will get nothing. It doesn't matter if you reach vr1 one hour after 1.6 is released, you still get nothing.

This 30 points are an exception to the rules of the champion system, an exception ZoS has failed to explain but we assume is in place so they have enough people playing with CPs for them to run the tests they need.

Isn't ZoS extremely fair? It will be very balanced to the vr1s with and without the CPs... No difference at all between the cases.

Grao · January 2015

SainguinLibras wrote: »

I'm wondering if they're going to remove Cadwell's Silver/Gold with the removal of VR. I really hope not because I haven't got a chance to complete them.

No, they wont remove playable content. The reward will simply go towards gaining CPs instead of leveling in the veteran ranks (but that will only happen on 1.7)

SainguinLibras · January 2015

Seems like the general idea is no, they won't remove it. So that's awesome. Hopefully someone from ZOS can confirm though.

GunemCleric · January 2015

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

static_recharge wrote: »

I have a question from the other side of the spectrum. Don't know if it was already asked as there are many pages to this thread. When 1.6 actually goes live and everyone gets their 30 CP for having at least one V1+ character on their account, what will happen to new players or players that haven't quite made it to V1+ yet? When they finally reach V1+ will they be automatically awarded 30 CP? Or is this a one time deal upon release of 1.6?

Thanks in advance for any information.

it is a one time award , no one who does not have a VR1 and up character on their account(each account for those with multiple accounts) will receive any CP.

when 1.6 goes live if your account has at least 1 VR1 or higher you receive 30 CP's

when 1.6 goes live if your account has zero VR characters you receive zero CP's .

ZOS is rewarding players twice for running content once , in regards to the non-repeatable content , and progressing players in a system that is not even in the game yet , in regards to those who focused on the repeatable content .
Should prove very interesting if they ever release an expansion pack for this game as they will have introduced a precedent for rewarding players twice .

What part of Removing veteran ranks in phase 4 do you still not get? When 1.7 comes out veteran ranks are gone. How is this "rewarding players twice for running content once"? How are not able to understand that? Seriously, dozens of people have explained this in excruciating detail and yet you continue to belabor this ridiculous non-point.

They are "giving" us 30 under the guise of converting vet ranks to CP. They are *not* even rewarding us once for our play time much less twice.
A fresh v1 gets 30 CP exactly like my 2 v14.
A v1 with ZERO quests get 30 CP, my v14 with 1100 quests gets 30 CP.
A v1 with 20 hours of playtime gets 30 CP, my 2 v14s with 2400 hours between them get 30 CP.

What is the difference? The v1 still has 600 quests for that character, one of my v14s has maybe 6 quests. BUT in phase 4 that v1 and my v14 will be level 50 and both will have only 30 CP plus whatever I earned in the meantime, which would be mostly on a different character, while the v1 can level the char he/she is playing on and still has 7 more possible toons to get CP, while i will need to delete 2 of my future v14 to continue to gain CP efficiently.

If that does not make sense then there is no hope for you.

Islyn · January 2015

GunemCleric wrote: »

What part of Removing veteran ranks in phase 4 do you still not get? When 1.7 comes out veteran ranks are gone. How is this "rewarding players twice for running content once"? How are not able to understand that? Seriously, dozens of people have explained this in excruciating detail and yet you continue to belabor this ridiculous non-point.

They are "giving" us 30 under the guise of converting vet ranks to CP. They are *not* even rewarding us once for our play time much less twice.
A fresh v1 gets 30 CP exactly like my 2 v14.
A v1 with ZERO quests get 30 CP, my v14 with 1100 quests gets 30 CP.
A v1 with 20 hours of playtime gets 30 CP, my 2 v14s with 2400 hours between them get 30 CP.

What is the difference? The v1 still has 600 quests for that character, one of my v14s has maybe 6 quests. BUT in phase 4 that v1 and my v14 will be level 50 and both will have only 30 CP plus whatever I earned in the meantime, which would be mostly on a different character, while the v1 can level the char he/she is playing on and still has 7 more possible toons to get CP, while i will need to delete 2 of my future v14 to continue to gain CP efficiently.

If that does not make sense then there is no hope for you.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Can anyone please explain what is to be done about the above?

Thank you.